Most unique tale on here-- MD grad who wants to redo Medical School.

[tyrosina]

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This is a story that has endless details and each chapter is "unheard" of and more significant than you have ever heard (definitely more than I have seen on studoc in 10 years).
The overall story is 3 years allopathic US medical school, a temporary withdrawal from the school for personal reasons and advised by admin, which became extended beyond the med school's max 2 semester limit.. and due to the valid circumstances, this was saved from being a logistical dismissal, 👍 instead it became a full "permanent" withdrawal from that med school (granted by the Dean along with a letter of reference and no negative stains👍). The general advice was taken to reapply later-- elsewhere-- and after 6 months I redid an entire AMCAS as a "transfer" student. 😎 Did not get in anywhere, got 2 interviews, apparently 1 was a fluke where they hadn't realized I was a 4th yr Transfer (because my prior med school transcripts submitted were all "Pass/Fail" courses and vaguely the explanation I heard was that they never showed up in the specific course curriculum? Irrelevant--). Did a backup plan with Carribbeans just to finish the MD. 😕 (Had only 9 months electives left to go). Stupid Money-hungry businesses aka "Caribbean med schools" all the credible big ones wanted me to start back on the island from the last pre-clinical semester! I wasn't going to any island when I had finished all my core clinicals AND step 1 and CS. The 2 caribs that accepted all my coursework and could start me with my US clinical MS4 electives were the one I ended up attending (tiny no-name almost a one-man show, school was based in a south American country) and a crooked one (with the Dean calling me to insist I committed before giving me "acceptance" hah! Asked him one Q only- can I do residency in Cali? He lied and said I can do it anywhere I want if I make a case coming from 3/4 lcme USA-school. Turns out this school was blacklisted from cali ten years ago). The small one wasn't whitelisted nor blacklisted with Cali Med Board so I jumped in just to make sure I "graduated". I had 3 families full of people behind me rooting me on because given what I had lived through it was important success that I finished that MD. Soon as I was enrolled I also could re-apply for step 2 (I was scheduled to take the exam at the time of my original withdrawal as a US med student..it was forfeited, and that is the least bad thing that's happened -barely even mentionable at this time)

Bottom line is that within a year of graduating, I explored all the options and it looks like it is impossible to "match". This is because the unheard-of Offshore school for my 4th year is barely credible AND doesn't cooperate well with ECFMG (the international med school version of AAMC. A whole new world I learned about with 9 months to go!)

I've now applied through ERAS 3 rounds. I am absolutely certain by now that I have to route some other path. I am certain because, by now 3 years post-graduating I did not get into a spot even when I had PD's "making" spots for me (let's say I had a spouse in a competitive residency and a network of GME helpers.) I did not get in even when I applied to scramble/soap prelim general surgery (easiest least competitive "junk" spots in USA). The second round and third round have led to pseudo-divorce and now massive OOS tuition in default from originally starting US med school almost 8 yrs ago. The absence of at least an internship residency year, is agreed by all to be ruining my life. (You cannot apply for deferment unless you're in Residency or enrolled full-time in a school that the Federal programs have listed, and I learned this by being denied for the usually-easily-qualified deferment requests I made during enrollment one at the tiny unknown carib I was in for 4th year). It is moreso a problem with that school and their ECFMG relationship. It is causing me to not get "ECFMG-certified" (means ECFMG confirmed you've graduated from a med school curriculum and all the Usmle except 3. It is the usual route img's take.)
and therefore no matter WHAT residency spot I do get, I can't "take" the spot without that official credential. Literally have heard PD's call back or page back to my "helpful contacts"
Saying "her ECFMG is non-valid. Have her fix it quickly before we have to fill this ___ spot."
(I realize this is almost illegal for pd's to communicate now but that's not the focus of this summary tale)



The original withdrawal & delayed return was due to a tragedy followed by another after another-- causing (truly one-in-a-million!) However, it will remain for the courtrooms and movie/book deal$
- because I really just need to ask a logistical question and have it answered.
The Question is:

HOW CAN I REAPPLY TO RE-DO ALL OF MEDICAL SCHOOL AFTER EITHER:
3 years of allopathic medical school and withdrawal,

Or

4 years of non-recognized tiny unknown foreign "carib" med school and an MD degree granted by them?
(This 2nd line is possible to substitute because they ended up transferring all my credits onto their own Transcript which ends with an Md diploma.)

I will conclude by stating that I am willing to retake the MCAT and I'm sure I will rock it since I was spending the past couple of years making money as a pre-med sciences tutor.
However, I am a bright "excellent" clinician and did well in med school and attended a top undergrad, etc.

I have lost everything sacred to me during the past few years of commitment to MD (lifetime love/spouse, the sanity of my family, my credit score, my pride). I am 31 now and living with.grad students in a house that is just like the one I used to OWN.
I WILL RE-DO 4 YEARS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL. I would really not mind that at all. I have spent 4 years already since starting at the Carib school, I should have just re-applied scratch instead of a transfer on that AMcAS (obviously hindsight is amazing splendid super-wisdom. Lol)

This is really a *technical* questioon, despite it sounding like an emotionally charged determination. Please do not reply with advice or deterrent or feedback. Nor sympathy. I appreciate your intentions but it is inappropriate to the answer I am asking.

It is a technicality about how to "erase" the 9 months of useless 4th year and degree, or even erase the 3 yrs of medical school done in the past. I think somehow I can use that as "graduate school credits" since it didn't lead to a degree, yet I cannot keep my prior mcat/usmle from coming up on AMCAS if I apply as a "pre-med" from the start.

Thank you to all who can use the superfluous personalized narrative above, to give me concrete and objective, directed responses. YOU are the only true "doctors," because that will be your exact actual job in real-life patient care. You're not journalists, life coaches, psychologists, or consultants. (Those persons have actually run through this issue with me at some point in time. They all ended up with no solution but personal styles differed in how frustrated they got or frustrating they made it for me before they could just admit/accept being helpless. As a repeat "survivor" I expect this pattern. People who care, cannot deliver "zero" useful result and feel good about it. People always have diffrent coping skills and the most insecure will reflect their own struggle to "need to be helpful" back onto YOU with heavy criticism or denial/deterrent, even harsher. It took my own parents years to be able to say "I don't know how to help. I can't. Tell me how or what I can do. I don't know how to remove your pain/injustice/dilemma/harm/problem." If you broaden your scope you will quickly see why having tragedies or complex problems befall you --can cause you to lose multitudes of people closest to you who cared about you so much. Distance and denial are the last resorts of the human psyche. Eventually, it is where we go when we cannot watch the unfair or traumatic and remain bound and helpless and powerless to change it. The people who cared about you the most, and your biggest supporters, they will all fall the HARDEST. If you are someone who truly KNOWS the grave level of experience I am mentioning, PLEASE MESSAGE ME. It is rare to find you. I would like to keep you in my network as I climb uphill and finally reach the one thing I deserved all along, my medical license and residency. Even if it takes re-doing the MCAT, haha. I laugh because that was a struggle 10 years ago and it seemed like a huge deal back then. After med school I've learned "how" to study, and perform even under physical somatic challenges like thirst and fatigue. No offense to pre-meds as I was one too, but for a veteran those are the baby steps. I'm happy to do it all over. I'm not happy to walk away from half of my life spent becoming a doctor, and say I deserved not to really ever get done (step 3 and 1 year of residency = licensure = "done"). That is not ok. Considering the half mill $ debt impact and waste of my childbearing years, that is not ok 🙂

So kudos to all you smart cookies who give me discrete answers to "the question" above! We are a bunch of the smartest people I ever met. Judges and lawyers and consultants and therapists have all awarded me that comment during displays of superior aptitude in doing THEIR job better than they could 🙂 I pass it on to the collective body of Medical education trainees, from MCAT to License. (clinical practice brings its own downfall to that accelerated genius, with the arrival of practicality and liability and business/financial and personal career/life brain drains. But the era of med ed is when we are all free from those burdens & brain muscles exercising like training in power marathons for Olympic cerebral medals!) no other time in any other field matches the course of med ed training.

And, the smartest cookies who are the star clinicians will display professionalism by not telling me the obvious downers, "wow that sucks" or, "it is close to impossible.." or "I can't imagine what that's like." . Not appropriate, and not the first to tell me.
I expect that, as student- to-be.. doctors, Dr. Job is bare minimum sympathy expression just enough above the "robotic numb" or callous level. Sometimes it doesn't need to be expressed separately, it comes across in the sincerity of your SOLUTIONS (IE treatment modalities). It isn't necessary to remind the rock-bottom person, again, how bad or awful or critical or life-changing their problem is. Unless it is something you have figured out how to cure!
As Drs, your "analysis" isn't the final product you deliver, it is the just the first step you keep to yourself. Meanwhile you non-judgementally SOLVE the algorithm, down to the core at a binary level of prescribing a tangible X or Y that treats it the most efficiently.
Trust me, I am in a position to judge that. I read prospective med school applications for yearrrrrs as a MS1,2,3. I taught hundreds of pre-meds how to study and how to be med students and how to get in.. And during my uphill climb to finish my 9 months of MD (or stay in "know" during the abysmal months and years in between formal enrollments) I've amassed enough clinical credits and personal "clinical" work at a residents' level, to know the line I've surpassed from each of the prior era.

That being said, I beg you. Please, please please. Please solve this riddlesome question for me. Everybody agrees I deserve a basic doctor license. Nobody else has this much dedication, appropriate knowledge, and credible experience at this level of med-ed. Deans, Pd's and mentors all cite the injustice but there must be a solution (that is re-doing medical school. 4 yrs is nothing at this point to me, really. Or re-doing the 4th year again, I'm even wondering about re-applying to "big" carib schools but I think that isn't possible if you have ever gotten an MD. American schools hardly consider my 4th yr "alma mater" as a "real" MD but my 4th year clinicals were done at the same "legitimate" hospitals I had always intended to be doing electives at, before withdrawal. I know for a fact that at least 4 PD's considered my entire CV to be fully worthy of their open spot. And held it for me (but most of those occurred due to personal ties and notoriety about my struggle. It is interesting when you reach the level of post-grad to have your past classmates & Peers all become residents, and involve you in their daily lives and decisions just as before.
It is STRANGELY like you are a "VIP" residency applicant, however, when those peers have gone on to become attendings (in primary care) and Fellows or chief residents (in surgical/subspecialties). By then, they are holding out spots for you at their respective institutions before the cycle year even begins. 3 yrs in a row 🙁

To the saint with the stellar suggestion, I know you are out there:
You will be heavily rewarded, by many many people. And you will be tributed AND credited for many years to come. And I will cast you any favor and all the Favoritism of my entire network of Doctor friends, family, peers, deans, PD's, attendings, fellows, etc.
I promise.
(I have written thousands of thank you letters during these years. I was the med student who wrote a thank you card to every resident and staff I worked with. And then during trials and tributlations and near-death and multiple irreplaceable losses of grave severity, I still made it my priority to return tangible gratitude to everyone from stranger to sibling, who extended themselves to my cause. All of those people's efforts will come to fruition with this last "dilemma" answered.
Only you as a group are bright enough to be posed with this. I genuinely believe that because I have seen "us" amaze the rest of humanity with our brain-computers.

Thanks again.

 

[tyrosina]

This may have been too long to elicit the brief answer intended. Here is the QUESTION restated simply:

HOW CAN I REAPPLY (on AMCAS)
TO RE-DO ALL, Or PART, OF MEDICAL SCHOOL,
AFTER EITHER:

- 3 years of allopathic medical school ending in a non-negative Withdrawal.. With a clean transcript done through core clinicals, and usmle 1 and CS passed on record in that med school.
(I am only barred from re-enrollment at that one med school. The withdrawal was permanent for logistical reasons re: max time limit you could remain on "leave" unenrolled but remain in the med school. Usually it can end in dismissal, but my circumstances were valid & "granted" withdrawal by the Dean.)

Or

After 4 years of MD completed at a non-recognized tiny unknown foreign "carib" med school and an MD degree granted by them? IMED-listed school, but yet it is impossible to get certified by ECFMG as all IMG's do, when they move on to residency.
(This is due to the school being so incapable/unresponsive/useless, and not because it is banned or blacklisted. And I AM certain the school/ECFMG situation cannot be changed. That's not the focus of this question. Let's just say it is an irrelevant ghost-like school, but I filled the enrollment time with the same 4th year elective clinicals I wouldve done as an American "normal" 4th year med student.
This is possible to say, because they ended up transferring all my 3 yrs of American med school credits onto their own Transcript, which ends with an Md diploma. At no point in medical school training did I venture onto foreign soil for education and all my clinicals were done as the same American med student's, with all cores done at my original US "home" med school. 4th yr electives done away at legit places that aren't the "big Carribbean school" locations. And omly difference was where I was "enrolled" during those away electives.) of course my MD degree is now from this po-dunk school!

I will conclude by stating that I am willing to retake the MCAT and I'm sure I will rock it since I was spending the past couple of years making money as a pre-med sciences tutor.

However, I am a bright "excellent" clinician with stellar letters of rec, notable publications, and I did well in med school (plus I was pres/chair of clubs like amsa and phr and med student council etc), and I attended a top undergrad, with a partial scholarship, and did a UC post-bac, did AAMC ambassadorships, etc.Assume the best case scenario all around.


How do I get a legitimate MD?

I really need and want to do residency. I really need and want the medical License. To take step 3 and do 1 internship year = License. Getting the residency spots is NOT the problem. Taking the spots is a problem because I can't get ECFMG-certified like all foreign grads usually can. And this is a problem with the school not with my credentials.

My 9 months left of 4th year elctives were spent enrolled in a "mistake" school, but identical quality of overall education and clinical training locations.

 

[DrMidlife]

I realize that a thoughtful and supportive response would be ideal here, but the whole story boils down to a single punchline: money.

If you are able to get admitted to a US med school, of any flavor, you are not able to get federal loans for that program if you are in default on a federal loan, which you seem to indicate is the case. Secondly, with a bad credit rating, you will not be able to get federal GradPlus loans, which are required to cover cost of attendance at the vast majority of schools.

I suggest that the issue of money be put at the top of the list, ahead of any strategizing on admissions. I will defer commentary on the rest of the story.

Best of luck to you.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I think US MD is all but closed to you since the vast majority of schools will not accept a student who has previously matriculated to a US MD school.

Your best bet is a US DO school. Failing that, find another career. The Carib backdoor will be closed in the coming decade.

 

[Goro]

I'm sorry, but you had your chance, and your medical career is over. My own school has a dim view of rejects from other programs.

Try PA or nursing.

This may have been too long to elicit the brief answer intended. Here is the QUESTION restated simply:

HOW CAN I REAPPLY (on AMCAS)
TO RE-DO ALL, Or PART, OF MEDICAL SCHOOL,
AFTER EITHER:

 

[mulberry]

Did you try contacting DO schools and explain your story? It doesn't matter which Caribb school you attended, it could have been one that was 3 years old or 20 years old. All IMGs go into the same pile when an RD is reviewing their case (except SGU and ross who have $$ ties with certain programs). DrMidLife had a good point - how will you finance 4 more years of schooling if you already took out loans? If you didn't, that is one avenue to explore. notbobtrustme is wrong, if Medicare receives funding and expands the residency slots the Caribb option will not be closed. @OP, did you apply to enough programs, specifically to rural FM program? They would have been your best bet. You could always do a fellowship after.

 

[sazerac]

Another concern would be the length of time between the board exams. Medical licensure is different in each state, but some have very strict time limits on how long you take to complete the Step exams. I fear if you hypothetically did re-enter a US medical school you would still not be able to get a license to practice in many states.

 

[tyrosina]

Another concern would be the length of time between the board exams. Medical licensure is different in each state, but some have very strict time limits on how long you take to complete the Step exams. I fear if you hypothetically did re-enter a US medical school you would still not be able to get a license to practice in many states.

Hi. Thank you bless you guys all for responding! I need to donate to this website and use and contribute to it MUCH more often.

(RE: Midlife, I wrote a relevant reply to the astute financial commentary you made, I am replying with that in a moment.)

RE: THE Examinations, yes I have looked into that. Most mixed bunch of midwest and east coast require 7-8 years max between the day of taking USMLE 1 through the day of registering for Step 3. There are a couple of outlier states such as Georgia and Florida (last time I checked, on the FSMB site), who allow 10 years.
Most of the states tack on a year or two extra grace period for people who had an MD/PhD program (not relevant to me but I thought I would contribute that info).

FSMB Federation of State Medical Boards, they have the state by state list of maximum # years (to elapse between Step 1 -3) as well as miscellaneous requirements.

Most of these states require you to be enrolled in an internship (or other year PGY, GME) program in order to take the USMLE Step 3. Just as goes for Step 1 and 2 (you must be enrolled in med school to take them via NBME, OR, be a foreign MD grad...and register through ECFMG)

Of note, California is the only state that places NO limit on being enrolled in an internship or GME residency when you take Step 3. Therefore, hypothetically anyone can travel to California and take the exam there, anytime, if they are a foreign graduate MD. (myself).

Therefore, one of my backup ideas was to take it that way in the coming timeASAP.
It may or may not be valid during my (hopefully) subsequent internship, but at least it is done. The problem is that in order to REGISTER for Step 3 with ECFMG (forwarded onto--> NBME, they're 2 administrations in the same building but on different floors! I have both their addresses memorized by now 🙁 ... you must be a foreign MD grad who has taken Steps 1 and 2 and has a medical diploma.

And if you recall, ECFMG-certification is the only way to prove you're a valid foreign grad. So the same issue cycles around because you cannot get past the medical school to "legitimize foreign MD" level" and do anything beyond it.

 

[tyrosina]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulberry

It doesn't matter which Caribb school you attended, it could have been one that was 3 years old or 20 years old. All IMGs go into the same pile when an RD is reviewing their case (except SGU and ross who have $$ ties with certain programs).


Specifically regarding that---
I should clarify because my original post was sooo long that the functional puzzle pieces maybe were made non-functional.
The problem is not that my carib school "sucked" (it did, but you are right, it DOESNT matter)
The problem is that they suck with ECFMG.

ECFMG needs some basic items from every foreign MD grad to issue "ECFMG-CERTIFicate" before they can be considered valid Match/SOAP applicants. --- which means confirm "graduation" at the American level---- ie, Step 1,2,cs, A med school diploma issued by the school, and the basic minimum Basic sci and core clinical curriculum weeks/rotations.

I know this firsthand because I got barred from SOAP last year (year #1) halfway through that soap/Match week, and with 3 PDs giving then losing me in open spots in the first round and second rounds-- because they would pull up Eras and see my name on it but when they tried add me into their list, it would return back an error that said "Applicant not validated as an ECFMG certified applicant."

I think because it was the 1st year of SOAP, replacing scramble, alot of PDs didnt know what was going on and neither did I nor ERAS/ECFMG.... Because this year, if you are not ECFMG-certified foreign grad, you get blocked out WAY BEFORE SOAP/Match week.
So essentially a big change happened last year (over the prior decades), because now Foreign MD grads cant just scramble into a program and fall through the cracks. They must be ecfmg-certified BEFORE the Match even starts, and they dont get any access to the PDs AT ALL from now on it is illegal to communicate outside of SOAP. Gone are the days of flying papers in fax machines and "slipped in" matching for scramblers.
And I learned as an IMG for a year, most of them plan to scramble.
So now, they won't even be visible or known to PDs unless they are ecfmg certified.

You can do these in any order, (even take Step 1 after you graduate!) but when you are done you apply for ECFMG CERITIFICATION.

 

[tyrosina]

Did you try contacting DO schools and explain your story? It doesn't matter which Caribb school you attended, it could have been one that was 3 years old or 20 years old. All IMGs go into the same pile when an RD is reviewing their case (except SGU and ross who have $$ ties with certain programs). DrMidLife had a good point - how will you finance 4 more years of schooling if you already took out loans? If you didn't, that is one avenue to explore. notbobtrustme is wrong, if Medicare receives funding and expands the residency slots the Caribb option will not be closed. @OP, did you apply to enough programs, specifically to rural FM program? They would have been your best bet. You could always do a fellowship after.

To be honest, I had not considered DO schools.Thanks for the thought.
I think that is a way to start over--- I think some of them do take the USMLE though; i think the division is shrinking. I should hurry and start with the DO entrance exam (COMLEX?) before they start to fall under the same umbrella admin organizations........I recently even saw an AMA update which mentioned they will be accepted into the ERAS system for residency?

When I had 9 months remaining to complete, one of my "mentors"/sponsors/in-laws was a Prof at a huge Cali DO school and told me to consider finishing my 4th year there. But it was too hard to transfer MCAT/USMLE1/CS and 3 years of MD credits over to a DO school. Students from THAT school I have now seen doing top residencies.

(Without revealing the name of my original, "real" American school for the first 3 years... I will say it was a large University medical school with both an allopathic and osteopathic program. I learned early on that the large lecture classes and exams and profs and labs we all shared together during basic science were identical----
except--
the DO students' grading scale on our exams differed from the MD grading. Their "Pass" cutoff was 5 points lower. This is for the same lecture and exam material seated in the same classroom together.)

I also had a friend in that osteopathic program who dropped out and went to the Carribbean after 2nd year, because he said the MD (which I was getting) was actually such a big difference in the end, that it was worth losing 2 years in-state tuition and spending 2 years "among lizards and cocaine". His quote not mine.
He went to a big top carib and now he, too, is now DONE with a basic 3 year residency.. <<this is kind of a sad part to see..

Overall THANK YOU FOR THE DO IDEA!

 

[ScienceNerdUofU]

Have you considered medical training through the military? I'm not quite sure how it works but maybe with a commitment to serve, you could swing it.

 

[mulberry]

To be honest, I had not considered DO schools.Thanks for the thought.
I think that is a way to start over--- I think some of them do take the USMLE though; i think the division is shrinking. I should hurry and start with the DO entrance exam (COMLEX?) before they start to fall under the same umbrella admin organizations........I recently even saw an AMA update which mentioned they will be accepted into the ERAS system for residency?

When I had 9 months remaining to complete, one of my "mentors"/sponsors/in-laws was a Prof at a huge Cali DO school and told me to consider finishing my 4th year there. But it was too hard to transfer MCAT/USMLE1/CS and 3 years of MD credits over to a DO school. Students from THAT school I have now seen doing top residencies.

(Without revealing the name of my original, "real" American school for the first 3 years... I will say it was a large University medical school with both an allopathic and osteopathic program. I learned early on that the large lecture classes and exams and profs and labs we all shared together during basic science were identical----
except--
the DO students' grading scale on our exams differed from the MD grading. Their "Pass" cutoff was 5 points lower. This is for the same lecture and exam material seated in the same classroom together.)

I also had a friend in that osteopathic program who dropped out and went to the Carribbean after 2nd year, because he said the MD (which I was getting) was actually such a big difference in the end, that it was worth losing 2 years in-state tuition and spending 2 years "among lizards and cocaine". His quote not mine.
He went to a big top carib and now he, too, is now DONE with a basic 3 year residency.. <<this is kind of a sad part to see..

Overall THANK YOU FOR THE DO IDEA!

If you don't mind me asking, why did he think dropping from an american institution to pursue the offshore medical school route would be advantageous? Does he not realize he can apply to the AOA match process where there are plenty of highly specialized fields - ENT, Ortho, Rads, Optho etc. Or, for whatever reason, he could take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX and apply to allopathic programs.

 

[tyrosina]

I think US MD is all but closed to you since the vast majority of schools will not accept a student who has previously matriculated to a US MD school.

Your best bet is a US DO school. Failing that, find another career. The Carib backdoor will be closed in the coming decade.

Hi,
In my post I mentioned that the first thing I did was reapply via AMCAS to medical school, but as a TRANSFER which you can do. (this was after my withdrawal and after the issues I had for withdrawal had gone enough for me to return to school)----
Transfer means you have American school credits but you want to leave or left the school (AND NOT DUE TO DISMISSAL, which is the key difference)

I actually got 2 interviews, and although 1 was purportedly an error about my app, they were both "able" to accept a prior American med student as a med student again. I think I had some different minor curriculum additions to make up which would have led to one extra semester, but overall it was acceptable that pre-Step 1 basic science is covered once you pass Step 1 and move onto clinicals. And 8 weeks standard for cores was plenty with +4 for med and surg.

But since I did that AMCAS application about 7 months after my "withdrawal" and GOT SUCH A LOW RESPONSE, my assumption is it only works when a spot has opened up from another student dropping out.
And few students drop out JUST FOR 4TH YEAR 🙂

Not that I have ego left or any semblance of Self after all the tragedy, BUT,
"failing that" as you said about a D.O. program, would not happen in my case. I am absolutely sure I wouldnt fail out of DO program when it is my 2nd time going through med school. I didnt fail out the 1st time either. I had a leave of absence for genuinely horrific reasons and then I had some unfortunate natural/medical events occur making it logistically too difficult to immediately return for my 4th year. The Dean thought I was doing the "right thing" and wrote my MSPE as well as a letter of reference separately, to use both in Residency applications and in Transfer admission to another medical school. I just couldnt stay THERE because you can only take 2 semesters off without "dropping out" or becoming dismissed.

 

[tyrosina]

If you don't mind me asking, why did he think dropping from an american institution to pursue the offshore medical school route would be advantageous? Does he not realize he can apply to the AOA match process where there are plenty of highly specialized fields - ENT, Ortho, Rads, Optho etc. Or, for whatever reason, he could take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX and apply to allopathic programs.

You know, I have NO idea why he did. But he was in a good position staying at the DO because of his logistics at that time, native hometown & instate tuition etc.
And he still went to the Carib. And he did so pretty quickly-- ie when he decided to, within a few months he was matriculated and packing up his bags for the islands.

I didnt know much about the DO/MD thing at that time, and I took HIS actions to be like my learning point about it.

I have few other objective experiences to be able to personally judge what the two are or arent. I know some people "always wanted" to do DO, and some people did it as backup. I also know the two worlds are MERGING RAPIDLY and whoever you were who told me the DO idea I would like to personally thank you AND ask you follow up


He ended up coming back close to that original hometown of his for residency in internal medicine, and I have lost touch but I think he has stayed there now and after marriage and baby and +/- fellowship is settled down in that community. Maybe he felt something personal because of having friends in MD programs? The whole slipper slope of comparison between the two and individual psyches in accepting or rejecting their own abilities, is something I used to be able to speculate and process...... but now my brain is going to explode just with my own psychoanalysis 🙂



The DO students did alot of osteopathic manipulation classes in addition to our basic science, and our clinicals were separate, but I know it was a good DO school nationally. And I know an equally good DO school in Cali whose residents compete with people like my ex for competitive surgical subspecialty residencies.

 

[tyrosina]

Military...

 

[tyrosina]

Have you considered medical training through the military? I'm not quite sure how it works but maybe with a commitment to serve, you could swing it.

How do I do that?👍
I would and will consider anything.
I am (apologies🙄) really a military-ignorant person.
I barely know the differences between the rankings, etc.
I'm not as ignorant in other common knowledge

I actually always wondered how do people go into those programs?

During SOAP last year I applied so widely, (i had a team of 3 ppl systematically stripping emails from FREIDA for all past 2 years' most statistically likely SCRAMBLE spots. And then I was passing on my cover/cv/eras..
I think that's the last time I'd be so lucky; by this year I barely have that kind of support.)

Anyhow, due to the wide mail/faxing, I got a lot of "no" responses back from filled positions.
"Sorry we are filled, AND we have the manners to reply and say sorry, but thanks" programs.

In addition, I also got a lot of military program "Sorry no" replies....
**All of whom reminded me that unfortunately "they can only accept military applicants".**

I am not sure where to start??😕😕

Given my "recent tragedies" that I keep referring to, I actually changed as a person and I have alot of respect for weapons/security and a better understanding of our national enforcement. I would never have said that in a million years, 5 years ago.

I would enjoy the rigorous experience of becoming tough and feeling more purpose to medicine than I already do.

Do I have to be in the military already to start?
Do they do MCAT and AAMCAS?

I hope I am not the only person with this huge gap of knowledge about the military....😎
Just never had exposure.
--------------------------------------------
These icons are too fun. Student doctor has been an unbelievable resource to me today. I am so thankful for this world of info! I was someone (of the many many out there) who "used" this site a couple times just to read what people wrote about XYZ and perhaps PM someone specific to ask in private. I am sticking on this site from now on, it's been more engaging help than i have had since August 2012

 

[tyrosina]

I'm sorry, but you had your chance, and your medical career is over. My own school has a dim view of rejects from other programs.

Try PA or nursing.

This may have been too long to elicit the brief answer intended. Here is the QUESTION restated simply:

HOW CAN I REAPPLY (on AMCAS)
TO RE-DO ALL, Or PART, OF MEDICAL SCHOOL,
AFTER EITHER:

1st of all,
I had my chance. And that chance ended with an American med school Dean signing an MSPE for me to use in residency apps, and also sending me off with a short half-page VERY POSITIVE letter of rec for me to use in my "next" medical school.
I was in such a rush and a push to make sure I "finished my MD" that i finished it at a crappy carib school that is a VALID school, but just doesnt have the manpower or administrative skills to do basic registration and mail correspondence.

2nd of all,
I wasn't ever rejected from anywhere.....

3rd of all,👎thumbdown👎
I kindly emphasized my IMPORTANT request to abstain from advising me to "give up" etc..👎
Please refer to the evolved insight in the long posting toward the end.
It is really really important not to hear that from medical students who use words like "rejected" to describe a situation that has no rejections in it, and far more maturity/resolve during traumatic outcomes, than 100 medical school challenges.
I'm told by experienced wise individuals like a judge, "you have lived through the collective sum of 10 people's average 100-year lifespans."
When multiple PD's and Deans and mentors all believe I should----and so do I---and I am 1 step away (just need an internship year, and I had no trouble GETTING the spot 2 years in a row)...

like I said, I have lost so much due to this that it is NOT ok to give up.
I see no red flags like an actual failed or rejected attempt, nor any reason why logically this isnt supposed to work out.
As another posted above, ALL img grads are the same no matter what the school.'the ecfmg-certification process normalizes this.
I am sorry if you assumed this heavy true reality of such an unjust harsh penalty could not actually happen---- but this is not one of the usual studoc early pathway topics, for example, "failed ochem prereq" or "am i too late to get interviews" etc.

I am sorry it is so difficult for you to accept that, without one rejection, one failure, and with a very MATURE decision to take more time before jumping back into 4th year.....
And with every blessing in the world from every administrator at NBME and ECFMG and ERAS and my old American medical school faculty, Deans, my wise old mentors and huge families of doctors, and all my peers who are now running the show as chiefs and PD's and attendings........ALL OF WHOM DONT SEE "WHY NOT"
Their wealth of experience is far more substantial than your comment which you could not display the endurance to restrain from making--- despite me very logically AND repeatedly asking for NO comments like that.


Reminding me, lost so much, YES I DID.
I need to address Midlife's FIRST AND FOREMOST FINANCIAL AID REPLY.

 

[88845]

I feel sorry for what happened to you, tyrosina. Just to clarify, you did three plus years of US MD school and then did a fourth year at a Caribbean program that's not IMED/WHO FAIMER accredited and / or acknowledged? What did ECFMG do for your case and how did they respond to your situation? PM me if you'd like to respond in private.

 

[Goro]

NYCOM has a program for FMGs. Check to see if you qualify as such.

 

[xffan624]

How do I do that?👍
I would and will consider anything.
I am (apologies🙄) really a military-ignorant person.
I barely know the differences between the rankings, etc.
I'm not as ignorant in other common knowledge

I actually always wondered how do people go into those programs?

During SOAP last year I applied so widely, (i had a team of 3 ppl systematically stripping emails from FREIDA for all past 2 years' most statistically likely SCRAMBLE spots. And then I was passing on my cover/cv/eras..
I think that's the last time I'd be so lucky; by this year I barely have that kind of support.)

Anyhow, due to the wide mail/faxing, I got a lot of "no" responses back from filled positions.
"Sorry we are filled, AND we have the manners to reply and say sorry, but thanks" programs.

In addition, I also got a lot of military program "Sorry no" replies....
**All of whom reminded me that unfortunately "they can only accept military applicants".**

I am not sure where to start??😕😕

Given my "recent tragedies" that I keep referring to, I actually changed as a person and I have alot of respect for weapons/security and a better understanding of our national enforcement. I would never have said that in a million years, 5 years ago.

I would enjoy the rigorous experience of becoming tough and feeling more purpose to medicine than I already do.

Do I have to be in the military already to start?
Do they do MCAT and AAMCAS?

:

The military has the same standards as the civilian world.

You can talk to a recruiter or take a look at the Army medicine website http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/ , but honestly I would think the military will not take you unless you can match into a residency. The scholarship program will only kick in when actually get an acceptance to an LCME medical school.

Also your default loans could be an impediment. I'm pretty sure there's a rule about not getting a federal job with default federal student loans. Probably have to fix that first.

I know two USUHS dropouts that are currently serving as medical service corps officers. One of them tried to get back in, but I think he had trouble getting a good enough MCAT.

One route that could at least get into the medical field would to be go enlisted or officer (doesn't matter which, although you'd probably be miserable as enlisted) and drop a packet to get into the PA program through the military.

Just remember it's not a back door. The military is actually competitive. USUHS has the same competition as any normal medical school.

 

[chirodocjrd]

I would highly suggest that you start looking for your answer by calling admissions officers at US medical schools, the company that runs the match and by speaking to the person who oversees residency matching at the first US medical school that you attended. The people on here are mostly premeds or medical students that will have only speculation as to what you should do as it is a very unique situation. The people at the places I have mentioned are they only ones whom can answer your questions with any certainty. I am sure that they will probably have to talk to several colleagues and ask many questions to get a straight answer to you.

I hope you can figure out a solution soon and continue your career in medicine.

 

[samuelj]

The military has the same standards as the civilian world.

You can talk to a recruiter or take a look at the Army medicine website http://www.armymedicine.army.mil/ , but honestly I would think the military will not take you unless you can match into a residency. The scholarship program will only kick in when actually get an acceptance to an LCME medical school.

Also your default loans could be an impediment. I'm pretty sure there's a rule about not getting a federal job with default federal student loans. Probably have to fix that first.

I know two USUHS dropouts that are currently serving as medical service corps officers. One of them tried to get back in, but I think he had trouble getting a good enough MCAT.

One route that could at least get into the medical field would to be go enlisted or officer (doesn't matter which, although you'd probably be miserable as enlisted) and drop a packet to get into the PA program through the military.

Just remember it's not a back door. The military is actually competitive. USUHS has the same competition as any normal medical school.

I'm not sure op would pass the psychological exam to enter into the military. The military does not look fondly on mental illness and the op said the withdrawal was for psychological reasons.

Op if the Caribbean school is unaccredited/no one ever heard of it why don't you apply to transfer as someone who has only finished three years. Sounds like you don't have any "record" of graduation other than a paper diploma that could go "missing" leaving no trace of whatever happened. Nonetheless your neurosies would scare me if I were your patient.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Forget it, OP. You will never get into a US MD or DO college. You had your chance and let it slip (for whatever reason). Sure, your dean writes you a cute little letter, but the truth is the school doesn't want you back. Besides, you already have gotten your MD. And to those that think she can transfer to another Caribbean without letting them know of that other MD, sure she can do that. However, that may violate school policies which means that if found she'd be stripped of her degree, and it is likely to appear since she's already shown her other MD to ERAS and financial aid. The only alternative from all here that I see viable is perhaps going military, but other than that, OP, you need to move on. You're like a compulsive gambler. "I've worked so hard to get here," but yeah, you've lost the money and can't afford to lose more. The most rational route is to plead to some PI to give you a research post-doc position.

 

[shezadeh]

Perhaps a country granting an MBBS/nonMD degree (that is ECFMG certified) may let you in, and let you complete the coursework needed? Not sure how this will work with the whole already-having-an-MD thing on the US side, or the foreign school side, but I am sure there is some place in this world that will let you in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Medical_Education_Directory

Take a look at the link. It also says what the primary language is for each school. I know of a Pharmacist who was planning to go to a medical school in Europe that was going to give him credit for some of his coursework. He didn't go for other reasons, but if you are looking for something, this might be the chance you have been looking for. Not to mention it may be cheaper.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Sure, your dean writes you a cute little letter, but the truth is the school doesn't want you back...

to me, apart from the long rambling post, this is the part that is most troubling. If I was an adcom member or PD and if the school you almost finished at wouldn't create an avenue for you to wrap things up, that's a huge red flag and no positive spin in a letter from that school is going to overcome that. Their actions speak louder than their words. Then you have the red flag of a Caribbean school, not even a well known one. And the red flag of having to take leave during med school for whatever reason. I just don't see many US MD or DO paths that are going to be realistic at this juncture.

 

[SOML]

Tyrosina, I'm also sorry about your situation. Your post did however, bring up something I've been wondering about..

" (tiny no-name almost a one-man show, school was based in a south American country) and a crooked one (with the Dean calling me to insist I committed before giving me "acceptance" hah! Asked him one Q only- can I do residency in Cali? He lied and said I can do it anywhere I want if I make a case coming from 3/4 lcme USA-school. Turns out this school was blacklisted from cali ten years ago). The small one wasn't whitelisted nor blacklisted with Cali Med Board so I jumped in just to make sure I "graduated""

You realize there are other international schools that are ECFMG cert./IMED listed/ 50-state approved schools right? The Carrib. schools are about money, they essentially are USMLE step passing machines (if they do that well, I'm not sure). What I do know is that although some of these schools do have "US 3rd/4th year rotation sites" in the US, they do not have/ nor are affiliated with REAL hospitals in-country. Therefore, their teachers are not currently clinicians, and are paid just to teach material.

Other international schools that have no problems with credentials (and are probably much more affordable, AND reputable), are generally not looked at. It perplexes me.

Anyway, hope the best for you and.. maybe you could try to do a 3rd/4th year transfer to a non-Carribean international school, with a proven track record of sending QUALITY doctors to the US (although they probably won't pride/advertise themselves as doing such, since they are focused on producing good doctors for their own country).

 

[sgemmell]

To be honest, I had not considered DO schools.Thanks for the thought.
I think that is a way to start over--- I think some of them do take the USMLE though; i think the division is shrinking. I should hurry and start with the DO entrance exam (COMLEX?) before they start to fall under the same umbrella admin organizations........I recently even saw an AMA update which mentioned they will be accepted into the ERAS system for residency?

When I had 9 months remaining to complete, one of my "mentors"/sponsors/in-laws was a Prof at a huge Cali DO school and told me to consider finishing my 4th year there. But it was too hard to transfer MCAT/USMLE1/CS and 3 years of MD credits over to a DO school. Students from THAT school I have now seen doing top residencies.

(Without revealing the name of my original, "real" American school for the first 3 years... I will say it was a large University medical school with both an allopathic and osteopathic program. I learned early on that the large lecture classes and exams and profs and labs we all shared together during basic science were identical----
except--
the DO students' grading scale on our exams differed from the MD grading. Their "Pass" cutoff was 5 points lower. This is for the same lecture and exam material seated in the same classroom together.)

I also had a friend in that osteopathic program who dropped out and went to the Carribbean after 2nd year, because he said the MD (which I was getting) was actually such a big difference in the end, that it was worth losing 2 years in-state tuition and spending 2 years "among lizards and cocaine". His quote not mine.
He went to a big top carib and now he, too, is now DONE with a basic 3 year residency.. <<this is kind of a sad part to see..

Overall THANK YOU FOR THE DO IDEA!

I'm honestly not sure what to tell you to do in your situation - sorry you are in this position.
COMLEX is NOT a DO "entrance" exam. DO schools use the MCAT for entrance purposes, just as MD schools do. The COMLEX is the DO Board Exams - just like the USMLE, albeit with differences, there are multiple parts to the exam. Part 1 is taken at the end of 2nd year, part 2 at the end of 3rd year, the PE sometime during 3rd year, then part 3 is taken either at end of 4th year or during residency. Parts 1, 2 & PE are required for graduation from any DO school - they won't consider taking USMLE acceptable for graduation purposes.

If you do decide to go DO, they will most likely have you repeat the entire 4 years - mainly because as an MD student you have not had any OMM (which is taught over the course of the first 2 years), which is on the COMLEX beginning with part 1. Some of them might be willing to allow you to transfer in your basic science classes, and allow you to only take OMM - which would free you up for studying for COMLEX. Considering you've already taken and passed USMLE, passing COMLEX shouldn't be too difficult

If you do decide to go this way, one major difference between the USMLE and COMLEX, is that the COMLEX doesn't focus on the USMLE as much. Also, COMLEX part 1 likes to ask about anatomy in the context of OMM (and vice versa).

The other thing to consider is this - because you've already taken an MD program, and there is a 6 year limit on federal financial aid for medical school, you probably will not be eligible for federal financial aid if you find an MD school willing to allow you to repeat the entire course. You might be eligible for federal financial aid for a DO school - since they are technically different programs. However, I'm not sure about this - you might be looking at private loans for part or all of your repeat, regardless of where you go.

Good Luck!!

 

[Goro]

And in this context, as I have mentioned, at my school, we have never in our history accepted a FMG, from an accredited school or otherwise.


If you do decide to go DO, they will most likely have you repeat the entire 4 years - mainly because as an MD student you have not had any OMM (which is taught over the course of the first 2 years), which is on the COMLEX beginning with part 1. Some of them might be willing to allow you to transfer in your basic science classes, and allow you to only take OMM - which would free you up for studying for COMLEX. Considering you've already taken and passed USMLE, passing COMLEX shouldn't be too difficult

 

[shezadeh]

maybe you could try to do a 3rd/4th year transfer to a non-Carribean international school, with a proven track record of sending QUALITY doctors to the US (although they probably won't pride/advertise themselves as doing such, since they are focused on producing good doctors for their own country).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Medical_Education_Directory

Take a look at the link. It also says what the primary language is for each school.

This is what I would do in your case:

1. Call any school you feel you have a chance at, ask them about your situation (MD and DO)

2. Provided you will do whatever it takes, look at the list, and apply to a program that will take you, and is ECFMG certified. UK, France, India, China, Japan, etc.., there are many options if you are willing to do whatever it takes. I personally know people who graduated from schools in Pakistan and India, who have passed the USMLE, and became successful physicians (Urologists, Surgeons, Anesthesiologists, btw). I also know people who did not pass the USMLE from these places, but then again there are people who don't pass the USMLE from the Caribbean and even in the US, but the point is that you have to be careful regarding where you go. If I wanted it that bad, I'd go abroad and do it, but after I researched where I was going to.

 

[jl lin]

Wow. They only thing I could think of doing is contacting different lawyers that may have had some experience dealing with students and problems with them within their school programs. It will cost you money in most cases just to talk with some number of lawyers, beyond what you already have, about the particulars. If, however, you are determined, I would think you would need someone in a knowlegeable position to help you. Just like physicians, sometimes you need to shop around. Not all generalist lawyers are good at all things, and even some specialized lawyers are not always helpful. You might try to look for threads from people that were found to be in similar situations to yours, and then maybe pm them.

OTOH, that's more money yet to dump out, and then, as others have pointed out, what about funding?

And I don't know about the issue of red flags. Red flags are one thing, but it depends on what the "red flag" is marking. OTOH with that, well, there's a lot that just doesn't make sense. As such, how could anyone even with proper credentials and experience begin to advise you???

OP, I say it'd be wiser for you to bark up some better trees, b/c pretty much no one here is going to know how to advice you, and even if they have some well-earned ability to do so, they don't know your specifics, which is like diagnosing a patient sight unseen.

 

[534455]

Dear Tyrosina,

Create a new AMCAS ID, and submit only your pre-req courses from an undergrad institution.
Do not mention, list or reference any of your MD courses/school work, first, second, third or fourth years at the MD schools. Just apply as a BS graduate and nothing else. Update your MCAT scores as well

How do you create a new AMCAS ID given that it is based on your SS#?

you'll figure it out. It can be done.

Your situation is not entirely lost.

PM if you want more info from me.

best

 

[TriagePreMed]

Dear Tyrosina,

Create a new AMCAS ID, and submit only your pre-req courses from an undergrad institution.
Do not mention, list or reference any of your MD courses/school work, first, second, third or fourth years at the MD schools. Just apply as a BS graduate and nothing else. Update your MCAT scores as well

How do you create a new AMCAS ID given that it is based on your SS#?

you'll figure it out. It can be done.

Your situation is not entirely lost.

PM if you want more info from me.

best

Am I the only one here feeling that this post crosses the line because it's basically abetting fraud?

 

[534455]

As I replied to your original post on another thread where you insulted AACOMAS and rallied people against them:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916082

You have to follow the rules. You have to understand the rules thoroughly, know what the boundaries are, and follow them. Insulting AACOMAS or rallying people against AACOMAS is not a way to get into medical school. It appears contentious and it might override any dream GPA or MCAT score. Careful how you approach them.

Look at the rules carefully. Follow them. Work with them. AMCAS and AACOMAS, I believe, want people to go to medical school. They do not make it impossible. They are not mean, they are not trying to "screw" people over (as you stated in your original thread), nor are they, as you stated, "bulls**t).

AMCAS and AACOMAS are regular people who are here to serve. Countless people get into medical school with all sorts of strange predicaments. There is wiggle room in their rules.
It's up to applicants to discover them.

Tyrosina's case is not entirely lost. However, only he can determine that.

Salut!

 

[sazerac]

Am I the only one here feeling that this post crosses the line because it's basically abetting fraud?

Five years from now a dead person with a similar birthday will be posthumously awarded a medical degree? Or maybe a person who was pick-pocketed in Times Square while on vacation a few years ago? Lol

 

[LUCPM]

Indeed he/she prefers the road less traveled.

 

[88845]

Dear Tyrosina,

Create a new AMCAS ID, and submit only your pre-req courses from an undergrad institution.
Do not mention, list or reference any of your MD courses/school work, first, second, third or fourth years at the MD schools. Just apply as a BS graduate and nothing else. Update your MCAT scores as well

How do you create a new AMCAS ID given that it is based on your SS#?

you'll figure it out. It can be done.

Your situation is not entirely lost.

PM if you want more info from me.

best

You must have never heard of National Student Clearinghouse.

 

[Bones DO]

You must have never heard of National Student Clearinghouse.

^^^^ DO NOT DO THIS. It will 100% obliterate any chance of having a US medical career in the future, as it will blacklist you if you are caught and could get you in legal trouble as well.

I believe what ultimately screwed this person is deciding to finish her training at an illegitimate school in South America. I think you should have talked to all the MD schools' admissions offices individually to be accepted as a 3rd year, given you had good grades in preclinical and a passing USMLE. No one anywhere in the US MD or DO would take anyone as a 4th year transfer, it's just not done. 95-99% of successful transfers occur after 2nd year and completion of level I boards. The rest occur between 1st and 2nd year and are very rare.

Now your association with this shady school is screwing you. If you want to start over, I know NYCOM offers an emigre physician program for DO, and you should do fine since this would be your 2nd time through.

The major issue is you would need to get out of default on your loans for you to be able to get new loans. You should talk to financial aid offices at schools to see what they recommend. You are in a real pickle here, have you considered moving to another English-speaking country to seek license?

 

[TriagePreMed]

snip

Pretty petty of you to go through this. Imagine having a frustrating day and saying "clowns" in an anonymous message board because you're a low income student that thinks he could lose his chance at applying to med school. How shocking! Nobody's ever had a bad day! On the other hand you're here suggesting fraud. Bad day vs suggesting fraud, hmmm? You decide.