MS or Masters/2nd BA

[stiz]

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I'm 39. Back in school after 12 years of working ...

Currently I'm non-degree grad taking Stats, Biochem, and Genetics...all A's so
far! 🙂

My UG GPA sucks (~2.8) ... I test well though and got about 75th percentile on GRE, so I'm hoping I can compensate to some degree with a decent MCAT
score...that aside though...

I'm trying to determine if I should pursue the MS in Reproductive Physiology
(thesis, research, etc...) or if I should go with the non-thesis Master's in
Agricultural (I'm in the college of Agriculture, Forestry, etc.) ... anyway,
the non-thesis allows me to take a pretty broad range of courses in Biochem,
Genetics, Physiology, without being burdened by research, seminar courses,
journal courses, etc....and I can throw in a BA in Chemistry (I'm 4 courses
short) which would look good to have some more recent chemistry and take
2 calculus courses.....

On the other hand, an MS with thesis is a degree of a higher caliber and down
the road (residencies) and even for app. to med school...research is a good
thing....

Pros and cons to both...so I'm kind of stuck as to which path I should pursue.

The goal either way being to knock out the degree with serious GPA (3.8?) ,
do well on the MCAT and distance myself from my **** UG performance
(or lack thereof) ....

One other benefit to the non-degree is I could take a stab at getting into
schools abroad for Fall 2008 rather than wait until Fall 2009...(Ireland, Israel,
Australia Feb 2009) ... whereas once I enter the MS w/thesis I'd need to
finish it out ....

I'd appreciate any thoughts anyone has on this matter.

Cheers.

-S

 

[njbmd]

If your undergraduate GPA is low, you need to do post-bac work to get that GPA up. Graduate work will not raise a poor undergraduate GPA (nor offset an poor undergraduate GPA) and undergraduate GPA is far more important in obtaining admission to medical school than research or graduate GPA. Even with an very high MCAT score, a poor undergraduate GPA will keep you out. You need to sit down with an Excel spreadsheet and calculate how many hours of undergraduate work you will need to get that undergraduate GPA near a competitive range. A second BA may not be enough.

The only graduate level work that is helpful in terms of admissions to medical school are the Special Masters Programs such as the SMP (Special Masters in Physiology) at Georgetown. These programs allow you to take essentially the same coursework as first year medical students. If you do well, you can greatly enhance your chances of getting into medical school. The key to this type of program is to do very well.

If you wish to pursue the graduate studies that you have outlined, the do so because you wish to obtain a graduate degree in that particular field but not because you are attempting to offset a poor undergraduate GPA in hopes of getting into medical school.

Way, way too early to consider anything about potential residency work as getting into medical school is going to be your present hurdle.

 

[Nasrudin]

If your undergraduate GPA is low, you need to do post-bac work to get that GPA up. Graduate work will not raise a poor undergraduate GPA (nor offset an poor undergraduate GPA) and undergraduate GPA is far more important in obtaining admission to medical school than research or graduate GPA. Even with an very high MCAT score, a poor undergraduate GPA will keep you out. You need to sit down with an Excel spreadsheet and calculate how many hours of undergraduate work you will need to get that undergraduate GPA near a competitive range. A second BA may not be enough.

The only graduate level work that is helpful in terms of admissions to medical school are the Special Masters Programs such as the SMP (Special Masters in Physiology) at Georgetown. These programs allow you to take essentially the same coursework as first year medical students. If you do well, you can greatly enhance your chances of getting into medical school. The key to this type of program is to do very well.

If you wish to pursue the graduate studies that you have outlined, the do so because you wish to obtain a graduate degree in that particular field but not because you are attempting to offset a poor undergraduate GPA in hopes of getting into medical school.

Way, way too early to consider anything about potential residency work as getting into medical school is going to be your present hurdle.

It's not that I ever disagree with your hard and fast assessments, but your interpretation of the meaning of a low gpa doesn't reflect its contextual nature. Given that you represent and establishment point of view this what disturbs me.

Getting A's in science classes is not even in the top 5 challenging experiences in my life, and yet you seem to attach Biblical importance to its significance to the entire life arc.

Your consistent use of the word "poor" implies your use of cum total gpa as an absolute value. I find this notion absurd. Not everyone exits the womb with a clear 10 point academic plan. If I were a music or art major my gpa would have little importance to my ultimate goals and therefore I might use my college experience to develop myself professionally outside of the classroom but under your premise I might just be a poor student in general.

Perhaps you are just leveling with potential applicants to give an accurate impression of the difficulty ahead. On the other hand, there seems to be a particular set of values in your assessments. Perhaps you might give us low gpa candidates an insight into this, because we face enough difficulty without the misinterpretation of one opinion as The Opinion.

 

[postbacker]

It's not that I ever disagree with your hard and fast assessments, but your interpretation of the meaning of a low gpa doesn't reflect its contextual nature. Given that you represent and establishment point of view this what disturbs me.

Getting A's in science classes is not even in the top 5 challenging experiences in my life, and yet you seem to attach Biblical importance to its significance to the entire life arc.

Your consistent use of the word "poor" implies your use of cum total gpa as an absolute value. I find this notion absurd. Not everyone exits the womb with a clear 10 point academic plan. If I were a music or art major my gpa would have little importance to my ultimate goals and therefore I might use my college experience to develop myself professionally outside of the classroom but under your premise I might just be a poor student in general.

Perhaps you are just leveling with potential applicants to give an accurate impression of the difficulty ahead. On the other hand, there seems to be a particular set of values in your assessments. Perhaps you might give us low gpa candidates an insight into this, because we face enough difficulty without the misinterpretation of one opinion as The Opinion.

I think her response was tailored specifically for the OP who seems to have no idea how deep the hole is with a 2.8 (OP seemed to be counting on an MCAT making up for it, and is basing propsects for that on having scored in the 75th percentile for the GRE...OP seems pretty naive to me)...surely you agree that the OP needs to get that UG GPA up, right?

I agree with njbmd about 100 percent of the time, and I also agree with her here...

 

[saylorsdad]

A big question is MD or DO, traditionally DO programs are more understanding "so I have heard" with non-traditionals. Plus if you score high on the MCAT, I am under the impression that admissions committies will overlook a low gpa. Someone else here surely knows better than I do though.

 

[postbacker]

A big question is MD or DO, traditionally DO programs are more understanding "so I have heard" with non-traditionals. Plus if you score high on the MCAT, I am under the impression that admissions committies will overlook a low gpa. Someone else here surely knows better than I do though.

A high MCAT can help, but there are limits to this...I think that the general thinking is once your overall GPA starts dropping below the matriculant median of 3.6, a strong MCAT will definitely help (say 33+), but at some point the GPA cannot be ignored (certainly below a 3.0 is bad, and the gray area seems to be that 3.0 to 3.3 range)...and I think the idea that non-trads get a free pass on GPA is mostly urban legend, at least when said GPAs are on the low side (sub 3.3 or so)...

 

[Nasrudin]

I think her response was tailored specifically for the OP who seems to have no idea how deep the hole is with a 2.8 (OP seemed to be counting on an MCAT making up for it, and is basing propsects for that on having scored in the 75th percentile for the GRE...OP seems pretty naive to me)...surely you agree that the OP needs to get that UG GPA up, right?

I agree with njbmd about 100 percent of the time, and I also agree with her here...

Thanks postbacker, but I'll take my answer from the lady that casts a large shadow. I don't like the shade from anyone, general benevolence or no.

 

[stiz]

Naive? I don't think I'm being naive...I think I'm pretty well informed....
I think you're reading a lot into what was said...

I think a low GPA AND a low MCAT equal sudden death.

I think a low GPA AND a good MCAT equals a decent start toward
doing some damage control....

I even used the words 'compensate to some degree' which I don't believe to be a naive assessment...

I think there are people who test well and those who don't test well and given
that I've taken numerous standardized tests, VCAT, GRE, etc...I am confident
that I can and will do well...I am also willing to put in ridiculous amounts of
time in preparation for the test...I'll have to remember to post my scores to
either a.) back this up or b.) be ridiculed 😀

I didn't think it would be some Holy Grail of wiping out my entire history and
having some medical school roll out the red carpet....I don't think I inferred
anything of that nature....

There are people who had poor UG GPAs who have gained admission to MD
programs in the US, DO programs in the US, and to a greater extent
(probably) programs overseas (Australia, Ireland, Israel, the Caribbean)...

I am not worried whether this is going to work out for me, as I'm confident
that it will, I'm just looking for some assistance on fine tuning the path
and process of making it happen.

Thanks very much...

Cheers.

S

 

[stiz]

NJ: I appreciate the comments about postbac v. grad GPA and doing some
calculations with excel spreadsheet...good idea...I have considered the
program at VCU as well...I need to take a second look....

One reason I'm doing the non-thesis master's is that it allows a lot of latitude
as to which courses I can take and I'm eligible for financial aid as a graduate
student...not sure if I would be eligible as post-bac and even if I were it
would probably be at lower levels...

Does it matter if I take the UG courses classified 'graduate' v. 'undergraduate'
or just that the 'course' is an undergraduate level ?

Cheers.

S

 

[Captain Fantastic]

It's really a personal choice. We can likely find as many stories of people who did graduate degrees to improve their apps as we can stories of people who did post-baccs/second degrees.

Do what feels right for you. Either way it can be done. Stay state-side if you can. It looks like you are aware, but just a reminder that you will have to complete the graduate degree before you start medical school -- it is a condition of acceptance for every medical school I can think of.

 

[Electrophile]

Granted, I'm in a vet degree, but my undergrad GPA wasn't super stellar either (3.3). Even by having a higher than average GRE (I think mine was like 100 points above the average admitted? Can't remember...), getting two BAs (biology and religious studies), graduating from the Honors College at Mizzou and honors in research, AND having a thesis masters in biology, I supposedly (according to the admissions counselor) STILL wasn't a super strong candidate just cause of my GPA. 🙄 So I what I did was get a bunch of large animal hours shadowing and I am now more open to being a mixed practice vet. So this isn't going to be exactly the same for you as a prospective MD student, but I'd work on my hands on experience in the medical aspect as well as the research. How's that going for you?

You're going to be in a pretty big hole, but I don't think it's absolutely insurmountable. Some people fail out of professional school because they can't cut it academically, so the med and vet schools are looking to minimize their losses. Hope that helps.

Oh yeah! *waves to Captain Fantastic from across campus*

 

[postbacker]

Naive? I don't think I'm being naive...I think I'm pretty well informed....
I think you're reading a lot into what was said...

I think a low GPA AND a low MCAT equal sudden death.

I think a low GPA AND a good MCAT equals a decent start toward
doing some damage control....

I even used the words 'compensate to some degree' which I don't believe to be a naive assessment...

I think there are people who test well and those who don't test well and given
that I've taken numerous standardized tests, VCAT, GRE, etc...I am confident
that I can and will do well...I am also willing to put in ridiculous amounts of
time in preparation for the test...I'll have to remember to post my scores to
either a.) back this up or b.) be ridiculed 😀

I didn't think it would be some Holy Grail of wiping out my entire history and
having some medical school roll out the red carpet....I don't think I inferred
anything of that nature....

There are people who had poor UG GPAs who have gained admission to MD
programs in the US, DO programs in the US, and to a greater extent
(probably) programs overseas (Australia, Ireland, Israel, the Caribbean)...

I am not worried whether this is going to work out for me, as I'm confident
that it will, I'm just looking for some assistance on fine tuning the path
and process of making it happen.

Thanks very much...

Cheers.

S

You are naive because even after getting some rock solid advice here, you are still debating masters programs...you need a lot of high GPA UG hours to raise your miserably low UG GPA right now, not a masters program...raise your GPA to the 3.3 area, and THEN you might look into an SMP...regardless, you need to do much more than "compensate to some degree" for your GPA by rocking the MCAT...the only "damage control" you can do is to raise your UG GPA...

Invest in an MSAR and spend some time with the matriculation statistics on GPA...it will disabuse you of the notion that people with a 2.8 get into an allo med school...a low GPA alone can cause the "sudden death" as you termed it...

Peruse the threads of applicants this year with GPAs in the 3.0 to 3.3 range and you will see that most of them are having little or no luck in the application process (no interviews)...a sub 3.0 GPA is the kiss of death...

Here is a telling anecdote on the perils of low GPA and the limits of an MCAT "compensating" for it - I know someone who had a 3.1 UG GPA - he attended Cal Tech, one of the top schools in the country, and had an engineering degree - he actually did "rock" the MCAT, earning a 42 - he applied to approximately 20 medical schools - and he got only a couple of interviews, but did get in to one of his state schools...

 

[postbacker]

NJ: I appreciate the comments about postbac v. grad GPA and doing some
calculations with excel spreadsheet...good idea...I have considered the
program at VCU as well...I need to take a second look....

One reason I'm doing the non-thesis master's is that it allows a lot of latitude
as to which courses I can take and I'm eligible for financial aid as a graduate
student...not sure if I would be eligible as post-bac and even if I were it
would probably be at lower levels...

Does it matter if I take the UG courses classified 'graduate' v. 'undergraduate'
or just that the 'course' is an undergraduate level ?

Cheers.

S

You will need to ask this question directly of schools and AMCAS, but I recall from other posters that if you are classified as a graduate student, your courses, even if technically undergraduate level, will also be classified as graduate courses, meaning that you get no benefit in raising your UG GPA.

People on SDN report mixed results when they are classified as post bacc (UG) students taking graduate level courses - apparently sometimes the coursework gets counted as UG, and sometimes it is counted as graduate level...not sure if this is simply a classification issue with schools, or if AMCAS makes the determination on a random basis...since post bacc students are not in a degree program, and most (or all?) graduate students are in degree programs, this may have something to do with it...regardless, it is a critical issue for anyone trying to do damage control on a UG GPA as you are trying to do...

On the AMCAS website you can download the big PDF that may offer insight on this...

 

[Captain Fantastic]

You will need to ask this question directly of schools and AMCAS, but I recall from other posters that if you are classified as a graduate student, your courses, even if technically undergraduate level, will also be classified as graduate courses, meaning that you get no benefit in raising your UG GPA.

People on SDN report mixed results when they are classified as post bacc (UG) students taking graduate level courses - apparently sometimes the coursework gets counted as UG, and sometimes it is counted as graduate level...not sure if this is simply a classification issue with schools, or if AMCAS makes the determination on a random basis...since post bacc students are not in a degree program, and most (or all?) graduate students are in degree programs, this may have something to do with it...regardless, it is a critical issue for anyone trying to do damage control on a UG GPA as you are trying to do...

On the AMCAS website you can download the big PDF that may offer insight on this...

If the class counts towards the graduate degree then it must be classified as a graduate course. Classes that are pure electives and do not satisify a requirement for the graduate degree can be counted as post-bacc undergraduate. The official language is in the "big PDF."

*waving back to Electrophile* Hello.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm a little confused about the OP. You scored in the 75% percentile on the GRE, and consider that good when extrapolating it to the MCAT, which is a much harder test? Even if your scores are 100% transferrable, 75% is a 30, which will hardly compensate for a GPA that is less than 3.0.

There's very little correlation between GRE/GMAT/SAT/ACT and MCAT scores, although I certainly wish there was. A high SAT/ACT score might help you get into top postbac programs, but that's about it, and even then, most of them won't overlook poor academic performance.

As others have said, the path for non-trads with poor prior academic performance is exceptionally hard. I spent two years doing postbac, scored in the top 1% on the MCAT, and started with a much higher GPA than you and already had a masters and I hardly think it's a slam dunk that I'll gain admission this year.

As other posters have said, raise your GPA to over 3.0, take the MCAT and score in the low/mid 30s, then the programs you should be looking at are not traditional masters, but SMPs, in which you'll have to do quite well in (GPA > 3.5 or so) to be pretty certain of admission in a US MD school. If your goals are international schools or DO programs, GPA repair is still probably your first priority, as well as a reasonably good MCAT. These programs are getting more and more competitive and admission is not as easy as people think.

 

[stiz]

postbacker...wow, so hostile...

thanks for telling me how it is.

🙄

 

[Nasrudin]

This is what I would like to know beyond the superficial:

Given that you walk the line. That you pay your dues. And you pull up an undergraduate record up to 3.3 from 2 split careers. And it ain't budgin anymore. And then let's just say you perform in the right range on the MCAT 30-35...anything beyond that is pure talent and cannot be forecasted by one's propensity for hard work in my opinion. You've also paid you dues in health care or whatever. You've taken the time to give back to your community.

What I mean is, do the people looking at my application, given the above, actually say to themselves..."Gee wiz that's a crappy gpa....NEXT!" and that's the end of it. I am not deluded. I don't care where in the US as long as I get in I'll go.

But to think of my cum gpa as a pure indicator of my ability is as bad as prescribing a heavy antibiotic for a viral disease. It's just lazy. It's merciless and unforgiving. It's narrow. Elitist, I would argue. But it's altogether possible, sensible, and befitting the size of the applicant pool. It is well within the duties of these bodies given their mammoth task.

But you know what. I just want to here them say it. Not in vapid politically correct double speak, but with the guts of a real human being. Take the mystery and hocus pocus out of it. Tell me you just don't have the space for said statical ranges. I'm cool with with words from the hearts of others whatever they are as long as they're sincere and undisguised.

But don't tell me my gpa means something in a formulaic sense. Tell me what you think when you see my gpa and take a glance further to see _____ or not. You know the mentor forum is a joke. They should call it the MSAR forum for people who can't or can't be bothered to read. A mentor is someone who gives you insight into how exactly to beat your opponent when your out-gunned. They mine their experience to say ".....so-n-so makes mistakes under pressure so trap him after the time out....", you dig?

Low gpa folks are not aided by the vapid and the formulaic. We need angles and insight. Gettin A's in classes ain't **** but showin up for work. How do we take it from there and go forward?


You hear what I'm sayin?

 

[drizzt3117]

Nasrudin,

I think the somewhat great (but also expensive) thing about this process is that there's a lot of schools and if a non-traditional candidate casts a wide enough net, and shows promise and dedication, you're going to find some adcoms out there that will show interest. In my experience, non-traditional students may have a slight edge in the interview process because they often have interesting stories to tell.

The problem with the process is the randomness involved. You might guess that given the stats you have and the track record of a given school, they might show great interest in your profile only to get a quick rejection, while another school that you had no idea you'd be qualified for may give you an interview. You just never really know.

My general feeling though, is that if you want it bad enough, ultimately ADCOMs can only delay your entrance to medical school. That said, the process requires a lot of dedication, hard work, and a little luck, no matter if you are traditional or non-traditional.

 

[postbacker]

postbacker...wow, so hostile...

thanks for telling me how it is.

🙄

Not so much hostile as blunt and direct...if you hang around SDN long enough, you will find plenty of "supporters" who will send you nothing but "love and kisses" and will offer endless encouragement that you can "do it" and I offer my opinion as a counter weight to these well intentioned happy posts that really seem naive to me...I also believe I am right about this stuff which is what you should want to hear before you embark on a very expensive and time consuming path...

Good luck.

 

[postbacker]

This is what I would like to know beyond the superficial:

Given that you walk the line. That you pay your dues. And you pull up an undergraduate record up to 3.3 from 2 split careers. And it ain't budgin anymore. And then let's just say you perform in the right range on the MCAT 30-35...anything beyond that is pure talent and cannot be forecasted by one's propensity for hard work in my opinion. You've also paid you dues in health care or whatever. You've taken the time to give back to your community.

What I mean is, do the people looking at my application, given the above, actually say to themselves..."Gee wiz that's a crappy gpa....NEXT!" and that's the end of it. I am not deluded. I don't care where in the US as long as I get in I'll go.

But to think of my cum gpa as a pure indicator of my ability is as bad as prescribing a heavy antibiotic for a viral disease. It's just lazy. It's merciless and unforgiving. It's narrow. Elitist, I would argue. But it's altogether possible, sensible, and befitting the size of the applicant pool. It is well within the duties of these bodies given their mammoth task.

But you know what. I just want to here them say it. Not in vapid politically correct double speak, but with the guts of a real human being. Take the mystery and hocus pocus out of it. Tell me you just don't have the space for said statical ranges. I'm cool with with words from the hearts of others whatever they are as long as they're sincere and undisguised.

But don't tell me my gpa means something in a formulaic sense. Tell me what you think when you see my gpa and take a glance further to see _____ or not. You know the mentor forum is a joke. They should call it the MSAR forum for people who can't or can't be bothered to read. A mentor is someone who gives you insight into how exactly to beat your opponent when your out-gunned. They mine their experience to say ".....so-n-so makes mistakes under pressure so trap him after the time out....", you dig?

Low gpa folks are not aided by the vapid and the formulaic. We need angles and insight. Gettin A's in classes ain't **** but showin up for work. How do we take it from there and go forward?


You hear what I'm sayin?

If the person I see when I read your posts comes through in your app and interview, I think you have an excellent chance of success...the truth is, some schools will never give you a second look based solely on your GPA, but some schools will look past that...which ones? I don't know...apply very broadly (30 to 40 schools, maybe) and you will make it, I believe...what is your state school situation? Seems like that will be your single best shot at med school, assuming you don't live in CA...

 

[lzbthcox]

This is what I would like to know beyond the superficial:

Given that you walk the line. That you pay your dues. And you pull up an undergraduate record up to 3.3 from 2 split careers. And it ain't budgin anymore. And then let's just say you perform in the right range on the MCAT 30-35...anything beyond that is pure talent and cannot be forecasted by one's propensity for hard work in my opinion. You've also paid you dues in health care or whatever. You've taken the time to give back to your community.

What I mean is, do the people looking at my application, given the above, actually say to themselves..."Gee wiz that's a crappy gpa....NEXT!" and that's the end of it. I am not deluded. I don't care where in the US as long as I get in I'll go.

But to think of my cum gpa as a pure indicator of my ability is as bad as prescribing a heavy antibiotic for a viral disease. It's just lazy. It's merciless and unforgiving. It's narrow. Elitist, I would argue. But it's altogether possible, sensible, and befitting the size of the applicant pool. It is well within the duties of these bodies given their mammoth task.

But you know what. I just want to here them say it. Not in vapid politically correct double speak, but with the guts of a real human being. Take the mystery and hocus pocus out of it. Tell me you just don't have the space for said statical ranges. I'm cool with with words from the hearts of others whatever they are as long as they're sincere and undisguised.

But don't tell me my gpa means something in a formulaic sense. Tell me what you think when you see my gpa and take a glance further to see _____ or not. You know the mentor forum is a joke. They should call it the MSAR forum for people who can't or can't be bothered to read. A mentor is someone who gives you insight into how exactly to beat your opponent when your out-gunned. They mine their experience to say ".....so-n-so makes mistakes under pressure so trap him after the time out....", you dig?

Low gpa folks are not aided by the vapid and the formulaic. We need angles and insight. Gettin A's in classes ain't **** but showin up for work. How do we take it from there and go forward?


You hear what I'm sayin?

I know that I'm new and I don't have much experience in the field, but... my mother is a pre-health advisor at my college. She takes trips to the state medical school every other year and she has told me that they are less concerned with GPA than some might think. I can't say this for all schools, but that's how it is here. They look at the whole person. You seem very passionate and determined. I think if you do what you think you should, it will work. Just because you are a late bloomer, doesn't mean you are doomed. Do what you can with what you have.
Wishing you the best of luck,
Liz

 

[Nasrudin]

Thanks y'all. Good luck to you too, including the OP.

If I seem confrontational its just because I'm trying to shake loose the circumscription of my identity as prescribed by the narrow anality of this process.

The culture here tries to compress everyone into some mythical ideal. The problem is that the ideal suits a young person being bankrolled to the extent that they have the time to volunteer in Dr.Whatzhisnutz's lab and and so and so forth.

It doesn't support the idea that you might be building your entire application from the steep slope of constant urban near poverty, that you did what you did while working full-time and then some.

Furthermore rather then giving you inspiration from those in the know, you get the bland suggestion that you may need to go spend a 100 g's on a special program to make the proper impression on these admission folks.

So that's just one more thing that favors the ideal in pursuit of the mythos of the ideal.

I say "piss off!" to that notion. If you are already an exception there's no point in compressing yourself towards an ideal. It just doesn't work. I am going to study the art of being the exception. Fully....and without fear.

Here goes forty days and nights in the desert. Sincerity, passion, and the science of the unseen can open the right door. This I believe.

I hope I can come back here to report the efficacy of a alternative pathway, but that is not in my hands. What is...is the courage to try.

 

[drizzt3117]

Nasrudin,

All I can say from what I've read of your posts on here and PMs is that you seem to have worked very hard to have gotten to where you are, would definitely bring a different perspective to any medical school class, and would be someone I would be happy to have as a classmate.

Good luck to you!

 

[RxnMan]

...If I seem confrontational its just because I'm trying to shake loose the circumscription of my identity as prescribed by the narrow anality of this process.

The culture here tries to compress everyone into some mythical ideal. The problem is that the ideal suits a young person being bankrolled to the extent that they have the time to volunteer in Dr.Whatzhisnutz's lab and and so and so forth.

It doesn't support the idea that you might be building your entire application from the steep slope of constant urban near poverty, that you did what you did while working full-time and then some.

Furthermore rather then giving you inspiration from those in the know, you get the bland suggestion that you may need to go spend a 100 g's on a special program to make the proper impression on these admission folks.

So that's just one more thing that favors the ideal in pursuit of the mythos of the ideal.

I say "piss off!" to that notion. If you are already an exception there's no point in compressing yourself towards an ideal. It just doesn't work. I am going to study the art of being the exception. Fully....and without fear.

Here goes forty days and nights in the desert. Sincerity, passion, and the science of the unseen can open the right door. This I believe.

I hope I can come back here to report the efficacy of a alternative pathway, but that is not in my hands. What is...is the courage to try.

Nasrudin, I felt the same way a few years ago. I felt that my existence was being narrowed down to one number too. It pissed me off to no end that I might not be able to do what I want with my life because of one number. To further the pain, I worked in a lab where attendings, residents, and occasionally, med students worked.

One group of med students from the local SOM, which had rejected me three times, were hired one summer to get a series of measurements from old patient records (BTW, all of these students wanted to go into ortho). Granted, there were a few thousand records, but with 5 people working full time, looking through 600 records/each for a few numbers is not hard to do in ten weeks. They were given the job and left to their own devices.

By the end of the summer, my boss discovered that the students had only worked through only a fifth of the files and all of them had been taking unscheduled leaves of absence for weeks at a time. Later we found out from one of the students that they ran into problems early on, but never informed anyone. Nothing was accomplished, and thousands of dollars were wasted. The project was abandoned. And these were the people that the local med school chose over me.

But the process isn't fair. Med schools have a seller's market. All you can do is to attempt to not go crazy about it. The comparison I drew above wasn't fair either. I ran around for a long time trying to beat the system and I let the system beat me up about it. In hindsight, I could have been smarter and played by the rules - getting a 3.6 GPA wasn't possible, but I would have been accepted to far more places if my GPA was more palatable to ADCOMs. njbmd's advice does not apply to most low GPA applicants, but we can still take something away from it.

In the end, I know how you feel, and I hope you get what you want out of this life.

And for the OP, I had 30 applications out there, and as the prototypical low GPA/High MCAT (36 or ~97th percentile), I got one acceptance. Your GPA has to come up.

 

[sawood]

You will need to ask this question directly of schools and AMCAS, but I recall from other posters that if you are classified as a graduate student, your courses, even if technically undergraduate level, will also be classified as graduate courses, meaning that you get no benefit in raising your UG GPA.

People on SDN report mixed results when they are classified as post bacc (UG) students taking graduate level courses - apparently sometimes the coursework gets counted as UG, and sometimes it is counted as graduate level...not sure if this is simply a classification issue with schools, or if AMCAS makes the determination on a random basis...since post bacc students are not in a degree program, and most (or all?) graduate students are in degree programs, this may have something to do with it...regardless, it is a critical issue for anyone trying to do damage control on a UG GPA as you are trying to do...

On the AMCAS website you can download the big PDF that may offer insight on this...

I'm currently in a masters program. AMCAS classified all my classes, even the ones that apply to my masters, as post-bac undergraduate, so I don't have a grad GPA (I've already submitted an academic change request to them). I called them and it seemed to me that they approached it as when in doubt, classify everything as a post-bac undergrad unless they know for sure it contributes to a masters. Be aware of that when you apply, you may need to add an extra note for which you want counted as grad.

With that said, there are two summary GPA sections: Undergrad and Graduate. If you want to get a masters, then the grad classes will not be used to offset the undergrad GPA, but then if you pull all A's in your masters program, you'll have a nice looking 4.0 in your graduate work. I had to take a lot of science pre-reqs that did not count towards my masters, so I had a bit of both (once AMCAS processes the change request).

Since GPA is such a big issue, my suggestion would be to make an appointment to talk to someone in the admissions department at your number 1 choice school. Tell them your situation and ask them how they would view it. If possible, contact several schools. They are the ones who know, not a bunch of pre-meds who have never been on an admissions committee. I would guess that some schools would think well of a high graduate GPA and masters degree and not look hard at undergrad, and others would be the opposite - not caring about graduate. It just depends on where you want to go. Talk to the schools themselves. Look in the MSAR, there are some schools that have about 20% of their class holding graduate degrees, where as others are about 2-3%. That might give you an indication as well as to their preference.

Hang in there. I can't tell you how everything will work out because I don't know how its going to pan our for me either. But I firmly believe that there is a way for you (and me 🙂) to get into med school. Its just about finding the right formula.