MS thesis vs non-thesis?

[southpawcannon]

Having switched gears in grad school, I'm planning to begin work on a MS in Biology by Fall 08, Spring 09 at the latest. I have to take both OChems and Molecular Cell (university I will complete the MS requires Mol Cell as a pre-req for many of the courses).

Thesis route-40 hrs including 26 hrs of classwork to include Biochem and 2 hrs each of seminar and topics. Up to 6 hrs of research with a minimum of 14 hrs of Thesis Research.

Non-thesis route 40 hrs of classwork to include Biochem and 2 hrs each of seminar and topics. Up to 4 hrs of research and completion of a laboratory or literature-based research paper.

Courses I plan to take either way: Neuroanatomy, Immunology, Advanced Human Phys, Endocrinology, Biochem, possibly Advanced Molecular Cell

I was told that med schools would take someone more seriously if they do a thesis, not to say a non-thesis graduate would be dismissed. I was also informed that doing a thesis can take up to a year to two years longer beyond the coursework required for the degree. Kind of bummed me out a bit because I was planning on doing the thesis not just so med schools would take me seriously and to stand out of the crowd but more for the challenge of truly understanding what research is and being a part of a meaningful project other than cleaning out test tubes in a lab once a week. However, I'll be 27 next month. By the time I finish grad school on say a non-thesis route, I'll be a couple of months shy of 30, a time I hope to be getting ready for my first year of medical school. My goal has been to be able to practice post-fellowship or near-end of one by the time I'm 40. you get the idea.

What would be some options for me to consider with my graduate studies?
How long have you known of people to take to complete their research and defend their thesis successfully? Would I be better off choosing a PhD path with the time it would take?

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to read this.

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[relentless11]

Masters by thesis can take as long as you said, or even more. If I went the masters by thesis route, my project would've been completed within one year given that my core requirements were completed within that time frame as well. This is because I had a project before getting into grad school. Conversely, my colleagues who went the masters route took 2+ years to finish. In research, anything, and everything bad can happen. My colleague wanted to get their masters thesis in 1.5 years. Its now year 2 and going into year 3.

My other colleague who is a PhD student wanted to finish in 3.5 years. He finally finished his dissertation in 5.5 years. A thesis requires the approval of 2-4 committee members. Therefore you have to find the professors, convince them, and finally acquire hteir signatures. Never an easy task. Combine that with the things that can go wrong with research such as experiments going awry, delays in reagents, delays in funding....you get the picture. As you can see, if you go the PhD route, it will be amplified even further. Most schools require at least 3 years of residence in a PhD program to earn your degree. Additionally, some programs also require you to TA which cuts down on your time to complete your thesis. Its entirely possible to finish a PhD thesis in 3 years..since I'm still on track to do that. However, again, I had this project LONG before getting into grad school.

Really though, its your call. Masters-based research is at times an overrated undergraduate senior thesis depending on what you do. So don't think too much into it being a deciding factor in winning over adcoms. There are some amazing undergraduate senior theses out there. Plus there are plenty of students with masters degrees anyway given those "co-terminal" plans out there. Its very common in the engineering field where you just spend the extra year to earn the BS/MS degrees. So its really more about what you will enjoy more than anything else. I enjoy research, and thus I went the PhD route...not to mention I wanted to be an MD/PhD anyway.

I cannot provide any advice regarding the PhD route. You'll either like it, or you'll hate it. Either way, you will sacrifice a lot...A LOT more than any masters program. Remember, a PhD program requires a qualifying exam, and some programs require both an oral and written qualifying exam. Then you spend day and night doing research while guided by your thesis committee. Then you have to get those forsaken signatures to finish. The key to surviving is finding a GOOD major professor, and designing a well focused project of PhD quality. It helps A LOT to have past research experience if you get into a PhD program too. A lot of my friends were "lost at sea" for the first 1-2 years of research at the PhD level. The ones that just breezed through were the ones that warmed up with the masters (by thesis) or had undergrad research experience. So something to think about I guess. I totally love my PhD program. I'm sure there's others on these forums that can say otherwise though.

 

[njbmd]

Having switched gears in grad school, I'm planning to begin work on a MS in Biology by Fall 08, Spring 09 at the latest. I have to take both OChems and Molecular Cell (university I will complete the MS requires Mol Cell as a pre-req for many of the courses).

Thesis route-40 hrs including 26 hrs of classwork to include Biochem and 2 hrs each of seminar and topics. Up to 6 hrs of research with a minimum of 14 hrs of Thesis Research.

Non-thesis route 40 hrs of classwork to include Biochem and 2 hrs each of seminar and topics. Up to 4 hrs of research and completion of a laboratory or literature-based research paper.

Courses I plan to take either way: Neuroanatomy, Immunology, Advanced Human Phys, Endocrinology, Biochem, possibly Advanced Molecular Cell

I was told that med schools would take someone more seriously if they do a thesis, not to say a non-thesis graduate would be dismissed. I was also informed that doing a thesis can take up to a year to two years longer beyond the coursework required for the degree. Kind of bummed me out a bit because I was planning on doing the thesis not just so med schools would take me seriously and to stand out of the crowd but more for the challenge of truly understanding what research is and being a part of a meaningful project other than cleaning out test tubes in a lab once a week. However, I'll be 27 next month. By the time I finish grad school on say a non-thesis route, I'll be a couple of months shy of 30, a time I hope to be getting ready for my first year of medical school. My goal has been to be able to practice post-fellowship or near-end of one by the time I'm 40. you get the idea.

What would be some options for me to consider with my graduate studies?
How long have you known of people to take to complete their research and defend their thesis successfully? Would I be better off choosing a PhD path with the time it would take?

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to read this.

Thesis versus non-thesis is not going to make much of a difference in terms of admission to medical school. Thesis versus non-thesis makes a difference in terms of further graduate school education. Graduate education (thesis versus non-thesis, MS versus Ph.D) is not a huge criteria in medical school admissions. Unless your graduate GPA is low, graduate school is weighted about as much as an extracurricular activity. In terms of GPA, a low graduate school GPA (lower than 3.6) can send up a "red flag" especially if your undergraduate GPA is below average (below 3.6).

If you anticipate further graduate study, then the thesis is a good option. If medical school and the practice of clinical medicine is your goal, then the thesis isn't going to make much of a difference.

 

[chrisjohn]

Hmm, sounds more than a little familiar...your situation.

So, thesis MS is a totally different bag from non-thesis, don't let anyone tell you differently. Everything is dependent on advisor and department. EVERYTHING. The biggest piece of advice I can give you is pick your advisor like you would a lifelong companion. No joke, because this person can make or break your graduate experience. A thesis MS will baptize you into academic science, which is great; you'll understand how the research goes on in academic institutions and be able to work in conditions you can't fathom now. You'll learn a lot too, which is always good. Publications (your thesis should be publishable and if not, change your project to insure that it is) are sure career boosters. I finished my MS w/ thesis in two years, but it was A LOT of work. To be honest I should have gotten a PhD, but going in I had no idea how much work my advisor was going to demand of me, but that's the breaks for being her first student and her bucking for tenure et al.

Graduate school is one of the last bastions of feudalism. Lords, PhDs, expect their serfs, graduate students, to work their asses off for them for below subsistence wages. The hours are stupid long, expectations totally out of proportion to anything resembling common sense. There will always be students who are nothing but sycophantic, piggy back someone else's project, but your advisor may wring every last ounce of work from you. I'm not kidding about 80-100 wk weeks. Residency will be pimp after working similar hours for a 14k graduate stipend.

You've already probably stopped reading, but in summation. Graduate school is basically a good thing, like any difficult training it does involve some hard suck, and I don't mean the feel good sexual kind. Of course I say this after successfully defending my thesis and matriculating. After lecture, when my classmates are bitching, I just remember that I don't have to hump it back to the lab and run four western blots!

Okay, I realize I didn't answer your question. It will take the same time to complete either program, albeit if you're not on the ball the thesis can stretch to infinity. My advice; get your S*** wired tight, finish the MS w/ thesis in two years. You'll get more out of the experience which is the whole point.

 

[Haemulon]

Great posts. Going the thesis route is really a crap shoot and is dependent upong the faculty that you get involved with, who your advisor is, how good you are at picking a reasonable project, and how much luck you have on your side. My first MS started off great and I was learning tons through my coursework, even did some great stuff in the lab .... but when it came to actually trying to bring everything together to complete a thesis all heck broke loose. It was perhaps one of the most stressfull times in my life (took almost 4 years).

My second MS went more smoothly and according to schedule, but was still not without its own share of stresses. My advice would be to decide how much on the research side you want to be in the future. You can always get some research time/experience even if you go non-thesis. But future grad programs will probably look more favorabley on the thesis. As far as med schools ... they won't know which route you went unless you tell them. M.S. is M.S. either way. PLus, chances are you will be involved with some project even if you go non-thesis, so you can always talk about that research experience if they ask you what you worked on.

If I had my first one to do over again, I would have definitely gone non-thesis. (would have saved me almost 2 years) But that's just me. 😉

 

[mustang sally]

I did an M.S. thesis in 2.5 years. I would recommend doing the thesis over non-thesis. You will learn a lot more and you will be educated in skills that have some application to the job market if med school does not pan out. I don't think non-thesis option will really help you get a job in the long run (although I realize that this is not your ultimate goal). I wouldn't do a PhD unless a research career is your true goal. There are not many good jobs out there for biology PhD's. Finally, as many posters have said, choose your PI well-it will make all the difference. Find out about his/her personality, funding, publications track record ie. what are the chances that you as a lowly MS student will have the opportunity to publish? Talk to other people in the lab to see if they are happy, will you like working with the people in a particular lab, etc.

 

[rddoms]

I will have my thesis defended within 2 years, guaranteed. It depends on your mentor, as well as your committee. Do the thesis based MS, it will be worth more. I have classmates who have finished in 1.5 years, and they are published.