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File complaint or let it slide?
Should have gone to a top 10 med school. This would never happen at a top 10.
I remember a time when the trolls would really put the effort in
He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?On a more serious note, I would probably email the clerkship coordinator if it happens again. Maybe they only did it this time because they knew nothing interesting was on their schedule for that day and they were trying to be nice and give you the day off. But, if it becomes a pattern, then I would let somebody know about it.
He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?
This is likely just more of the modern American medical school where med students are seen as nothing more than shadowers. So essentially they are no different from pre-med college students.
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
I am saying that it if only happens this once to let it slide. Report it if it becomes a pattern. If the physician was trying to be nice and give him the day off, then he should take it gladly. If his education gets compromised because of this happening a lot, then something needs to be done about it.
File complaint or let it slide?
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
This was the only afternoon in this particular subspecialty not something that can just be made up tomorrow. More so pissed off because I missed out on the experience and may have liked the specialty as a career but will have no exposure as I am apparently lower on the totem pole than 19 year olds home from college.
Pretty poor form to have this happen, especially on a first day of working with a new preceptor. If this happened more than once I'd bring it up with the clerkship coordinator. But, having it happen once? I certainly wouldn't get bent out of shape about it.
That having been said, you are not paying this guy for anything. Some preceptors are paid by a school, some are not and do it on their own. While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to. The physician made a decision that the shadows seeing whatever they were seeing was more important to him (the surgeon) than you. Let's not pretend that spending one day in a single person's clinic is a core part of your education and that you lost out substantially as a result.
This is important to remember and something that not a lot of medical students are aware of. While you as the student are paying obscene amounts of money to the school, a lot of preceptors are doing this on a volunteer basis. For instance, all outpatient preceptors (and even some inpatient ones) at my medical were not paid to teach us. Which means that they actually lost money by taking on students because they lost productivity.
While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to.
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
That having been said, you are not paying this guy for anything. Some preceptors are paid by a school, some are not and do it on their own. While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to. The physician made a decision that the shadows seeing whatever they were seeing was more important to him (the surgeon) than you. Let's not pretend that spending one day in a single person's clinic is a core part of your education and that you lost out substantially as a result.
If they volunteered to teach then they actually are obligated to do just that.
Regardless, what is absolutely not debatable is that the med school has an obligation to ensure that their students receive an adequate education, which means things like this should be reported to the LCME and taken into consideration at the next accreditation survey or sooner. But the LCME doesnt seem to care about the quality (lack thereof) of a schools clinical curriculum.
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Don't get me wrong guys I know a day off when I see it just wasn't sure what to do because this guy shouldn't be available as a preceptor if he isn't available in reality. I was more pissed that he whiffed on our agreed upon start time by an hour and a half than I was when he kicked me out.
You were at a hospital and the non-medical student kid got to scrub in...that attending will get his ASS handed to him if anyone finds out.This happened to me once. I was on surgery and the attending was the father of one of the shadowing students. So of course they got to scrub in while I was forced to watch from the vascular suite.
You were at a hospital and the non-medical student kid got to scrub in...that attending will get his ASS handed to him if anyone finds out.
Yeah this is bull****. I want to tell you to report him but usually nothing good happens and people see you as a troublemaker. I would just let your fellow med students know to avoid that person. My philosophy is to keep quiet and just get through it. Just remember not to do that to med students when you're at the next level.
Shadowing in surgery is the most boring thing I the planet, ugh.
FTFYShadowing is the most boring thing I the planet, ugh.
He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?
This is likely just more of the modern American medical school where med students are seen as nothing more than shadowers. So essentially they are no different from pre-med college students.
That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.I've been able to do this and the attending actually went through medical education/department to do this. That being said, during the case, he hardly ever talked and said 10 things to his resident and one thing to me and only really had time to really talk between surgeries. Also, we had to make sure we stood far from the operating table out of everyone's way and only really asked questions when the surgeon was on break. Had a medical student shown up, I would have gladly left.
The real issue here is the attending's attitude. Mimelim is more informed and I'm sure he's more correct about worse things possibly happening, but I feel like you're pretty upset about this and rightly so. In the end, I think it's best to report.
This hurts, that hurts, gimme pain meds.Surgery clinic as a med student is pulling teeth. Send that attending a thank you letter.
That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
When I shadowed a surgeon in undergrad I scrubbed in and stood right next to him. It was quite the experience.That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
Well, somebody's obligated to.
Is there anything this board won't excuse?
If they volunteered to teach then they actually are obligated to do just that.
Regardless, what is absolutely not debatable is that the med school has an obligation to ensure that their students receive an adequate education, which means things like this should be reported to the LCME and taken into consideration at the next accreditation survey or sooner. But the LCME doesnt seem to care about the quality (lack thereof) of a schools clinical curriculum.
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I scrubbed in on several surgeries and was at the table. The surgeon let us get right up to see the patients' brains (neurosurgeon). For the spinal surgeries we had to stand behind the surgeon or several feet away because there was less room. I was there with someone who was shadowing the PA as well. The hospital is a DO rotation site (in NY, which is a state that tends to be stickler with these little rules) with DO residency programs, but there were no med students/residents in with us.That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
Yes. If you volunteer that followed thrWhy? Because you pay tuition? If you don't like it, report it, just don't be surprised when nothing happens. If you really don't like it, nobody is forcing you to keep giving them money.
This isn't about excusing anyone's actions. This is about picking your battles. The sky isn't falling. A preceptor made a choice that negatively impacted an MS3 for a day. Exaggerating the impact of this weakens the global case. Missing out on a single day with a preceptor that you are not on a clerkship with (not going to see again) is not some catastrophic blow to one's medical education.
Supposed to teach? Sure. Go ahead and try to force every unpaid preceptor to bend over backwards for every MS3 rotating with them every second of their clerkship.
Medical schools have an obligation to ensure that students receive an adequate education. I'm not seeing how missing a single day of clinic means that the student won't get an adequate education. It really dilutes the real medical education quality gaps when you run around screaming that the sky is falling and being dramatic about small things like this. This is a student who is not on rotation with this preceptor. They don't have an established relationship. They don't have continuity patients. They aren't even going to be working with this person in the future. Not getting time with them sucks. It is less than ideal. But, getting bent out of shape about something like this is hardly productive. There are so many bigger battles down the road. If you get caught up on every 'slight' or every person that isn't doing their job in healthcare, you will never actually get any work done, never mind generating enemies that you don't need.
Why? Because you pay tuition?
oh the thumb twiddling...I scrubbed in on several surgeries and was at the table. The surgeon let us get right up to see the patients' brains (neurosurgeon). For the spinal surgeries we had to stand behind the surgeon or several feet away because there was less room. I was there with someone who was shadowing the PA as well. The hospital is a DO rotation site (in NY, which is a state that tends to be stickler with these little rules) with DO residency programs, but there were no med students/residents in with us.
And shadowing in surgery has plenty of dull moments, but >>>>> than other shadowing. Try waking up at 4am to get to the hospital to shadow a radiologist in a room lit only by a computer screen when you have very little idea what you are looking at (radiology at least has entertaining people, and they are very collegial/social with each other). Then primary care as you sit for hours listening to the doctor do dictated notes while you twiddle your fingers.
Or maybe these unpaid preceptors just shouldn't take students if they don't have time. They chose to be faculty, whether paid or unpaid, they chose to get the CME, tax breaks, and promote their private practice as "faculty of XX school of medicine." They didn't have to. Not saying they have to bend over backwards, but the medical school also didn't have to open 15 satellite campuses and employ shotty faculty just to raise their class size from 100-250.Why? Because you pay tuition? If you don't like it, report it, just don't be surprised when nothing happens. If you really don't like it, nobody is forcing you to keep giving them money.
This isn't about excusing anyone's actions. This is about picking your battles. The sky isn't falling. A preceptor made a choice that negatively impacted an MS3 for a day. Exaggerating the impact of this weakens the global case. Missing out on a single day with a preceptor that you are not on a clerkship with (not going to see again) is not some catastrophic blow to one's medical education.
Supposed to teach? Sure. Go ahead and try to force every unpaid preceptor to bend over backwards for every MS3 rotating with them every second of their clerkship.
Medical schools have an obligation to ensure that students receive an adequate education. I'm not seeing how missing a single day of clinic means that the student won't get an adequate education. It really dilutes the real medical education quality gaps when you run around screaming that the sky is falling and being dramatic about small things like this. This is a student who is not on rotation with this preceptor. They don't have an established relationship. They don't have continuity patients. They aren't even going to be working with this person in the future. Not getting time with them sucks. It is less than ideal. But, getting bent out of shape about something like this is hardly productive. There are so many bigger battles down the road. If you get caught up on every 'slight' or every person that isn't doing their job in healthcare, you will never actually get any work done, never mind generating enemies that you don't need.
As is the entitlement of some med students...The arrogance of physicians is incredible.
As is the entitlement of some med students...
Surgery clinic as a med student is pulling teeth. Send that attending a thank you letter.
Yes, obviously. Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?
The arrogance of physicians is incredible. "Why do you feel entitled to something? Just because you paid for it?"
Or maybe these unpaid preceptors just shouldn't take students if they don't have time. They chose to be faculty, whether paid or unpaid, they chose to get the CME, tax breaks, and promote their private practice as "faculty of XX school of medicine." They didn't have to. Not saying they have to bend over backwards, but the medical school also didn't have to open 15 satellite campuses and employ shotty faculty just to raise their class size from 100-250.
Yes, the entitlement of wanting something you paid for and are required to receive. The damn nerve of it!
You pay tuition to the school to give you an education. The individual preceptors have specific obligations based on their contracts/agreements with schools. Their obligation is not to you, it is to the school. Further, the school is providing you with an education. Again, a single missed clinic day is hardly an educational disruption. The entitlement here is astounding.
This was the only afternoon in this particular subspecialty not something that can just be made up tomorrow. More so pissed off because I missed out on the experience and may have liked the specialty as a career but will have no exposure as I am apparently lower on the totem pole than 19 year olds home from college.