MS3 booted to accommodate shadowing college students

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lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
 
On a more serious note, I would probably email the clerkship coordinator if it happens again. Maybe they only did it this time because they knew nothing interesting was on their schedule for that day and they were trying to be nice and give you the day off. But, if it becomes a pattern, then I would let somebody know about it.
 
blub1212 said:
On a more serious note, I would probably email the clerkship coordinator if it happens again. Maybe they only did it this time because they knew nothing interesting was on their schedule for that day and they were trying to be nice and give you the day off. But, if it becomes a pattern, then I would let somebody know about it.
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He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?

This is likely just more of the modern American medical school where med students are seen as nothing more than shadowers. So essentially they are no different from pre-med college students.
 
cbrons said:
He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?

This is likely just more of the modern American medical school where med students are seen as nothing more than shadowers. So essentially they are no different from pre-med college students.
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I am saying that it if only happens this once to let it slide. Report it if it becomes a pattern. If the physician was trying to be nice and give him the day off, then he should take it gladly. If his education gets compromised because of this happening a lot, then something needs to be done about it.
 
TBV said:
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
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If you or your school is paying, don't let the shadows crowd you out. I would complain as long as you don't get labeled a firebrand or something, but do your best to not let that happen again. We had a similar problem in my residency with observers. One is fine but when one attending has three observers that are literally blocking my vision to the monitor, I get red-faced mad.
 
This happened to me once. I was on surgery and the attending was the father of one of the shadowing students. So of course they got to scrub in while I was forced to watch from the vascular suite.
 
blub1212 said:
I am saying that it if only happens this once to let it slide. Report it if it becomes a pattern. If the physician was trying to be nice and give him the day off, then he should take it gladly. If his education gets compromised because of this happening a lot, then something needs to be done about it.
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This was the only afternoon in this particular subspecialty not something that can just be made up tomorrow. More so pissed off because I missed out on the experience and may have liked the specialty as a career but will have no exposure as I am apparently lower on the totem pole than 19 year olds home from college.
 
TBV said:
File complaint or let it slide?
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TBV said:
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
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Pretty poor form to have this happen, especially on a first day of working with a new preceptor. If this happened more than once I'd bring it up with the clerkship coordinator. But, having it happen once? I certainly wouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

That having been said, you are not paying this guy for anything. Some preceptors are paid by a school, some are not and do it on their own. While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to. The physician made a decision that the shadows seeing whatever they were seeing was more important to him (the surgeon) than you. Let's not pretend that spending one day in a single person's clinic is a core part of your education and that you lost out substantially as a result.
 
TBV said:
This was the only afternoon in this particular subspecialty not something that can just be made up tomorrow. More so pissed off because I missed out on the experience and may have liked the specialty as a career but will have no exposure as I am apparently lower on the totem pole than 19 year olds home from college.
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Ah, I gotcha. I thought it was just like surgery clinic, or obgyn clinic, or something equally "fun" that you end up wasting a ton of your life in. In this case, I think I would agree with prettyladydoc24. Say something to the coordinator so they are aware that students are missing out on things that they are paying for. Just don't come off as entitled or pretentious, otherwise nobody will really take what you're saying seriously.
 
mimelim said:
Pretty poor form to have this happen, especially on a first day of working with a new preceptor. If this happened more than once I'd bring it up with the clerkship coordinator. But, having it happen once? I certainly wouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

That having been said, you are not paying this guy for anything. Some preceptors are paid by a school, some are not and do it on their own. While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to. The physician made a decision that the shadows seeing whatever they were seeing was more important to him (the surgeon) than you. Let's not pretend that spending one day in a single person's clinic is a core part of your education and that you lost out substantially as a result.
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This is important to remember and something that not a lot of medical students are aware of. While you as the student are paying obscene amounts of money to the school, a lot of preceptors are doing this on a volunteer basis. For instance, all outpatient preceptors (and even some inpatient ones) at my medical were not paid to teach us. Which means that they actually lost money by taking on students because they lost productivity.
 
blub1212 said:
This is important to remember and something that not a lot of medical students are aware of. While you as the student are paying obscene amounts of money to the school, a lot of preceptors are doing this on a volunteer basis. For instance, all outpatient preceptors (and even some inpatient ones) at my medical were not paid to teach us. Which means that they actually lost money by taking on students because they lost productivity.
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I don't want to minimize how much this sucks to have happen as a student. But my real point is that this is far from the worst time waster or slight that you will endure in your medical training. I am NOT saying to simply get used to it and let people walk over you. I am simply saying that if this is someone that you are never going to see again and never have a relationship with, I would move on with your life. Leave a terrible review for them on your clerkship feedback if it makes you feel any better, but leave it at that. You just really have to get out of the "they owe me because I pay them lots of money" mindset.
 
mimelim said:
While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to.
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If they volunteered to teach then they actually are obligated to do just that.

Regardless, what is absolutely not debatable is that the med school has an obligation to ensure that their students receive an adequate education, which means things like this should be reported to the LCME and taken into consideration at the next accreditation survey or sooner. But the LCME doesnt seem to care about the quality (lack thereof) of a schools clinical curriculum.

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TBV said:
lets say MS3 goes into clinic where he is supposed to be precepted by physician in subspecialty. Waits around for 1.5 hours for said physician to show up. Finally shows up with multiple shadows (college level kids trying to boost their app for med school) and says it's too crowded. Boots only person paying to be there out of the room telling MS3 to go find something else to do today
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If you're not exaggerating, this is exactly what reporting is for. No need to wait for a second occurrence. This shouldn't be occurring, plain and simple.

EDIT: To qualify, I have had orientation but haven't started clerkships yet. Maybe those who've had clerkships have a point about this being a subtle way of letting you take the day off, especially if he was just doing something routine.

That being said, if this did actually happen and somehow you could be sure that the intent was not to give you a day off, I would absolutely report this. Maybe don't file a full complaint that needs to get noticed, but make your voice heard in a review.
 
mimelim said:
That having been said, you are not paying this guy for anything. Some preceptors are paid by a school, some are not and do it on their own. While we would all like to think that they will take some ownership of your education and care about you, they aren't exactly obligated to. The physician made a decision that the shadows seeing whatever they were seeing was more important to him (the surgeon) than you. Let's not pretend that spending one day in a single person's clinic is a core part of your education and that you lost out substantially as a result.
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Well, somebody's obligated to.

Is there anything this board won't excuse?
 
Don't get me wrong guys I know a day off when I see it just wasn't sure what to do because this guy shouldn't be available as a preceptor if he isn't available in reality. I was more pissed that he whiffed on our agreed upon start time by an hour and a half than I was when he kicked me out.
 
cbrons said:
If they volunteered to teach then they actually are obligated to do just that.

Regardless, what is absolutely not debatable is that the med school has an obligation to ensure that their students receive an adequate education, which means things like this should be reported to the LCME and taken into consideration at the next accreditation survey or sooner. But the LCME doesnt seem to care about the quality (lack thereof) of a schools clinical curriculum.

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Click to expand...
TBV said:
Don't get me wrong guys I know a day off when I see it just wasn't sure what to do because this guy shouldn't be available as a preceptor if he isn't available in reality. I was more pissed that he whiffed on our agreed upon start time by an hour and a half than I was when he kicked me out.
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In that case, find the correct procedure (don't go and blindly email people who don't need to know you're filing a complaint) and just calmly state what happened. I don't know...I technically haven't started clerkships yet but this is the exact sort of thing that reporting is supposed to weed out. As a person, I can always forgive mistakes when the person's trying, but this preceptor has no regard for their responsibilities.
 
Lord_Vader said:
This happened to me once. I was on surgery and the attending was the father of one of the shadowing students. So of course they got to scrub in while I was forced to watch from the vascular suite.
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You were at a hospital and the non-medical student kid got to scrub in...that attending will get his ASS handed to him if anyone finds out.
 
TheFutureFatMan said:
You were at a hospital and the non-medical student kid got to scrub in...that attending will get his ASS handed to him if anyone finds out.
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I've been able to do this and the attending actually went through medical education/department to do this. That being said, during the case, he hardly ever talked and said 10 things to his resident and one thing to me and only really had time to really talk between surgeries. Also, we had to make sure we stood far from the operating table out of everyone's way and only really asked questions when the surgeon was on break. Had a medical student shown up, I would have gladly left.

The real issue here is the attending's attitude. Mimelim is more informed and I'm sure he's more correct about worse things possibly happening, but I feel like you're pretty upset about this and rightly so. In the end, I think it's best to report.
 
Yeah this is bull****. I want to tell you to report him but usually nothing good happens and people see you as a troublemaker. I would just let your fellow med students know to avoid that person. My philosophy is to keep quiet and just get through it. Just remember not to do that to med students when you're at the next level.
 
Psai said:
Yeah this is bull****. I want to tell you to report him but usually nothing good happens and people see you as a troublemaker. I would just let your fellow med students know to avoid that person. My philosophy is to keep quiet and just get through it. Just remember not to do that to med students when you're at the next level.
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I respect this viewpoint. Don't report if it even has the smallest chance of inconveniencing you OP.
 
If it was a one-time thing I'd probably let it slide, but since you think it would've been a valuable experience, can you ask your clerkship coordinator about it without "reporting" him? Something along the lines of "Dr. Doe wasn't able to accommodate me on the day I was scheduled for his service, and I was really hoping to get a taste of this specialty. Could this be rescheduled?" I'd leave the shadows out of the equation if you want to avoid drama.
 
Mad Jack said:
Shadowing in surgery is the most boring thing I the planet, ugh.
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Yeah, there's really no point besides asking the attending questions that deal more with personal stuff and seeing the bigger picture. There was one time where I heard an attending counsel a patient about erectile dysfunction due to removal of the prostate and that clinical nugget stuck, but other than that...nothing clinical.
 
cbrons said:
He is paying up the nose and your telling him to just let it slide?

This is likely just more of the modern American medical school where med students are seen as nothing more than shadowers. So essentially they are no different from pre-med college students.
Click to expand...

That's right. There is nobody lower on the totem pole for AAMC & Medical School bureaucrats than their own students. In their eyes, premeds are a valuable commodity to be nurtured because they will constitute the future revenue stream and should not be turned-off from pursuing medical education. Meanwhile the nurses, PAs, advanced practice nurses, NPs, and the rest of the muddled mass of "providers" and "allied professionals" are a hallowed sacred class to be worshiped in pursuit of Political Correctness brownie points.

Medical students? Worthless scum who have already paid at least the first semester's tuition and are deep enough in to have little choice but to continue paying tuition till the very end regardless of how they're treated.
 
Backtothebasics8 said:
I've been able to do this and the attending actually went through medical education/department to do this. That being said, during the case, he hardly ever talked and said 10 things to his resident and one thing to me and only really had time to really talk between surgeries. Also, we had to make sure we stood far from the operating table out of everyone's way and only really asked questions when the surgeon was on break. Had a medical student shown up, I would have gladly left.

The real issue here is the attending's attitude. Mimelim is more informed and I'm sure he's more correct about worse things possibly happening, but I feel like you're pretty upset about this and rightly so. In the end, I think it's best to report.
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That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
 
TheFutureFatMan said:
That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
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Oh I see. All I did was get a temporary scrub machine card from Medical Education after I showed them my college ID. I did put on a thyroid vest once because they were doing a radioablation or something from kidney stone removal.
 
I enjoyed surgery clinic as a student. It was one of the rare places I actually got inpatient -> outpatient continuity as a student. Seeing the turnaround in post op patients was great. And I ****ing hated surgery overall. With regard to the op, yes it's inappropriate imo, but gotta pick your battles. If this one's worth fighting for you, go for it. Not where I'd spend my energy though
 
TheFutureFatMan said:
That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
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When I shadowed a surgeon in undergrad I scrubbed in and stood right next to him. It was quite the experience.

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Señor S said:
Well, somebody's obligated to.

Is there anything this board won't excuse?
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Why? Because you pay tuition? If you don't like it, report it, just don't be surprised when nothing happens. If you really don't like it, nobody is forcing you to keep giving them money.

This isn't about excusing anyone's actions. This is about picking your battles. The sky isn't falling. A preceptor made a choice that negatively impacted an MS3 for a day. Exaggerating the impact of this weakens the global case. Missing out on a single day with a preceptor that you are not on a clerkship with (not going to see again) is not some catastrophic blow to one's medical education.

cbrons said:
If they volunteered to teach then they actually are obligated to do just that.

Regardless, what is absolutely not debatable is that the med school has an obligation to ensure that their students receive an adequate education, which means things like this should be reported to the LCME and taken into consideration at the next accreditation survey or sooner. But the LCME doesnt seem to care about the quality (lack thereof) of a schools clinical curriculum.

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Click to expand...

Supposed to teach? Sure. Go ahead and try to force every unpaid preceptor to bend over backwards for every MS3 rotating with them every second of their clerkship.

Medical schools have an obligation to ensure that students receive an adequate education. I'm not seeing how missing a single day of clinic means that the student won't get an adequate education. It really dilutes the real medical education quality gaps when you run around screaming that the sky is falling and being dramatic about small things like this. This is a student who is not on rotation with this preceptor. They don't have an established relationship. They don't have continuity patients. They aren't even going to be working with this person in the future. Not getting time with them sucks. It is less than ideal. But, getting bent out of shape about something like this is hardly productive. There are so many bigger battles down the road. If you get caught up on every 'slight' or every person that isn't doing their job in healthcare, you will never actually get any work done, never mind generating enemies that you don't need.
 
TheFutureFatMan said:
That's pretty rare...also only reason to be scrubbed in is if you're AT the table. You can stand right behind a surgeon, not be scrubbed, and not worry about contamination. Scrubbed in, to me, implies that he was belly up to the table...which...pretty impressive that was approved for a non-employee/non-medical student.
Click to expand...
I scrubbed in on several surgeries and was at the table. The surgeon let us get right up to see the patients' brains (neurosurgeon). For the spinal surgeries we had to stand behind the surgeon or several feet away because there was less room. I was there with someone who was shadowing the PA as well. The hospital is a DO rotation site (in NY, which is a state that tends to be stickler with these little rules) with DO residency programs, but there were no med students/residents in with us.

And shadowing in surgery has plenty of dull moments, but >>>>> than other shadowing. Try waking up at 4am to get to the hospital to shadow a radiologist in a room lit only by a computer screen when you have very little idea what you are looking at (radiology at least has entertaining people, and they are very collegial/social with each other). Then primary care as you sit for hours listening to the doctor do dictated notes while you twiddle your fingers.
 
mimelim said:
Why? Because you pay tuition? If you don't like it, report it, just don't be surprised when nothing happens. If you really don't like it, nobody is forcing you to keep giving them money.

This isn't about excusing anyone's actions. This is about picking your battles. The sky isn't falling. A preceptor made a choice that negatively impacted an MS3 for a day. Exaggerating the impact of this weakens the global case. Missing out on a single day with a preceptor that you are not on a clerkship with (not going to see again) is not some catastrophic blow to one's medical education.



Supposed to teach? Sure. Go ahead and try to force every unpaid preceptor to bend over backwards for every MS3 rotating with them every second of their clerkship.

Medical schools have an obligation to ensure that students receive an adequate education. I'm not seeing how missing a single day of clinic means that the student won't get an adequate education. It really dilutes the real medical education quality gaps when you run around screaming that the sky is falling and being dramatic about small things like this. This is a student who is not on rotation with this preceptor. They don't have an established relationship. They don't have continuity patients. They aren't even going to be working with this person in the future. Not getting time with them sucks. It is less than ideal. But, getting bent out of shape about something like this is hardly productive. There are so many bigger battles down the road. If you get caught up on every 'slight' or every person that isn't doing their job in healthcare, you will never actually get any work done, never mind generating enemies that you don't need.
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Yes. If you volunteer that followed thr

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mimelim said:
Why? Because you pay tuition?
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Yes, obviously. Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

The arrogance of physicians is incredible. "Why do you feel entitled to something? Just because you paid for it?"
 
Another possibility is for him to have spoken up as the doc said to take the day off. "Dr., I appreciate the time but since it's my only day here would you mind me staying?"


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Mansamusa said:
I scrubbed in on several surgeries and was at the table. The surgeon let us get right up to see the patients' brains (neurosurgeon). For the spinal surgeries we had to stand behind the surgeon or several feet away because there was less room. I was there with someone who was shadowing the PA as well. The hospital is a DO rotation site (in NY, which is a state that tends to be stickler with these little rules) with DO residency programs, but there were no med students/residents in with us.

And shadowing in surgery has plenty of dull moments, but >>>>> than other shadowing. Try waking up at 4am to get to the hospital to shadow a radiologist in a room lit only by a computer screen when you have very little idea what you are looking at (radiology at least has entertaining people, and they are very collegial/social with each other). Then primary care as you sit for hours listening to the doctor do dictated notes while you twiddle your fingers.
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oh the thumb twiddling...
 
mimelim said:
Why? Because you pay tuition? If you don't like it, report it, just don't be surprised when nothing happens. If you really don't like it, nobody is forcing you to keep giving them money.

This isn't about excusing anyone's actions. This is about picking your battles. The sky isn't falling. A preceptor made a choice that negatively impacted an MS3 for a day. Exaggerating the impact of this weakens the global case. Missing out on a single day with a preceptor that you are not on a clerkship with (not going to see again) is not some catastrophic blow to one's medical education.



Supposed to teach? Sure. Go ahead and try to force every unpaid preceptor to bend over backwards for every MS3 rotating with them every second of their clerkship.

Medical schools have an obligation to ensure that students receive an adequate education. I'm not seeing how missing a single day of clinic means that the student won't get an adequate education. It really dilutes the real medical education quality gaps when you run around screaming that the sky is falling and being dramatic about small things like this. This is a student who is not on rotation with this preceptor. They don't have an established relationship. They don't have continuity patients. They aren't even going to be working with this person in the future. Not getting time with them sucks. It is less than ideal. But, getting bent out of shape about something like this is hardly productive. There are so many bigger battles down the road. If you get caught up on every 'slight' or every person that isn't doing their job in healthcare, you will never actually get any work done, never mind generating enemies that you don't need.
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Or maybe these unpaid preceptors just shouldn't take students if they don't have time. They chose to be faculty, whether paid or unpaid, they chose to get the CME, tax breaks, and promote their private practice as "faculty of XX school of medicine." They didn't have to. Not saying they have to bend over backwards, but the medical school also didn't have to open 15 satellite campuses and employ shotty faculty just to raise their class size from 100-250.
 
stepone2015 said:
Surgery clinic as a med student is pulling teeth. Send that attending a thank you letter.
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Disagree, I had several clinic days with a surg subspecialty attending who sent me to see most of the new consults.
 
Señor S said:
Yes, obviously. Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question?

The arrogance of physicians is incredible. "Why do you feel entitled to something? Just because you paid for it?"
Click to expand...

You pay tuition to the school to give you an education. The individual preceptors have specific obligations based on their contracts/agreements with schools. Their obligation is not to you, it is to the school. Further, the school is providing you with an education. Again, a single missed clinic day is hardly an educational disruption. The entitlement here is astounding.

Donald Juan said:
Or maybe these unpaid preceptors just shouldn't take students if they don't have time. They chose to be faculty, whether paid or unpaid, they chose to get the CME, tax breaks, and promote their private practice as "faculty of XX school of medicine." They didn't have to. Not saying they have to bend over backwards, but the medical school also didn't have to open 15 satellite campuses and employ shotty faculty just to raise their class size from 100-250.
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So then go to a different school that didn't massively increase their class sizes and employ poor faculty. If you aren't happy with the education, then stop paying for it.

Señor S said:
Yes, the entitlement of wanting something you paid for and are required to receive. The damn nerve of it!
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This is the United States. If you don't like what you are paying for, stop paying for it and spend your hard earned money on something else. We get it. You think that if you pay someone money, you own them.
 
mimelim said:
You pay tuition to the school to give you an education. The individual preceptors have specific obligations based on their contracts/agreements with schools. Their obligation is not to you, it is to the school. Further, the school is providing you with an education. Again, a single missed clinic day is hardly an educational disruption. The entitlement here is astounding.
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This is just nonsensical. Stop. Breathe. Think. Put down keyboard and try again later.
 
TBV said:
This was the only afternoon in this particular subspecialty not something that can just be made up tomorrow. More so pissed off because I missed out on the experience and may have liked the specialty as a career but will have no exposure as I am apparently lower on the totem pole than 19 year olds home from college.
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If you really want that experience, let your school know what happened in a professional, factual way that doesn't make you look like a whiner. "The doctor was too busy with other students and told me he didn't have room for me that day, but I'm really interested in learning more about that specialty. Is there anyone else in that specialty I could shadow for an afternoon?" I don't know how accommodating your school's staff is, but mine would definitely find a way to help if that approach was utilized.
 
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