MS3 vs 2nd Year PA?

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jsmith1

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So I've heard from some PA students that 2nd year of PA school is about as difficult as 3rd year of med school. Any truth to that? They say that they do the same rotations right next to the med students so its essentially the same difficulty.

I just thought this was kinda funny because many med students say 3rd year is the hardest. If this is true does that mean PAs go though the hardest part of med school?
 
This is becoming so sad it is funny. What is up with the comparison. If people want the equivalent of any year of medical school, the easiest thing to do is......

*drum roll*

Go to medical school

(Or in my boredom did I just get trolled)
 
They are essentially treated the same on rotations as we are. What's wrong with that?
 
They are essentially treated the same on rotations as we are. What's wrong with that?

They aren't treated anywhere NEAR the same on rotations as we are...at least not at any of the hospitals I've worked at.
 
So I've heard from some PA students that 2nd year of PA school is about as difficult as 3rd year of med school. Any truth to that? They say that they do the same rotations right next to the med students so its essentially the same difficulty.

I just thought this was kinda funny because many med students say 3rd year is the hardest. If this is true does that mean PAs go though the hardest part of med school?
:eyebrow:
 
This is becoming so sad it is funny. What is up with the comparison. If people want the equivalent of any year of medical school, the easiest thing to do is......

*drum roll*

Go to medical school

(Or in my boredom did I just get trolled)
The theme in medicine is "outcomes". As long as you don't have any worse outcomes, then you're just as good as someone else. Anti-intellectualism at its finest.
 
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The theme in medicine is "outcomes". As long as you don't have any worse outcomes, then you're just as good as someone else. Anti-intellectualism at its finest.
Tell that to the ANA...
 
So anyone care to elaborate how their 2nd year is diff from MS3? According to @fahimaz7 they are treated the same?

Even if MS3's are treated a bit worse does that really make MS3 that much worse than their 2nd year?
 
So anyone care to elaborate how their 2nd year is diff from MS3? According to @fahimaz7 they are treated the same?

Even if MS3's are treated a bit worse does that really make MS3 that much worse than their 2nd year?
I'd trust @Winged Scapula's response above.
 
So anyone care to elaborate how their 2nd year is diff from MS3? According to @fahimaz7 they are treated the same?

Even if MS3's are treated a bit worse does that really make MS3 that much worse than their 2nd year?

It's not a matter of M3's being "treated worse"

We have PA students regularly do their surgery rotation with us.

They don't present patients on rounds.

They get third preference for OR casess (M4s>M3s>PAs), often meaning they don't go to the OR at all.

The people responsible for their education (their preceptors) are our PAs, not our attendings. They get very little face time with our attendings. When they go to clinic, they shadow rather than see patients on their own.

They work probably 2/3 the hours that our students do. They don't work weekends. They don't take call. They don't have a designed didactic curriculum the way our students do (or if they do I never see it because it doesn't take place in our hospitals and it isn't taught by surgical faculty). They don't go to the surgical skills sim lab to do sessions on knot tying, central line, ultrasound, lap skills, chest tubes - which our M3s do. They don't do SP sessions - which our M3s do. And they only rotate with us for 4 weeks; our med students are with us for 10.

It is a completely different experience from the ground up.
 
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Disclosure:

My partner employs a PA-C in our main office; she was chosen over an NP candidate due to my discomfort over what I view as a political agenda by the national licensing/governmental bodies of NPs.

I have PA, DO and MD students who rotate with me in my private practice.

In my past life as a resident, fellow and attending surgeon at an academic institution, I had the opportunity to work with PAs on several services, most notably CT and Trauma surgery.

What follows is my own observations and experience.

It is human nature to try and expand their importance; doctors do it when they claim they work more hours than any other profession, surgery residents do it when the exaggerate the number of hours they work per week and PA students/dental students/Nursing Students/NPs etc do it when they claim they learn the same thing/work just as hard/have the same responsibilities as do medical students/residents/fellows and attending physicians.

My experience is that the level of knowledge of a PA student falls below that of a comparable level medical student. They have some breadth of knowledge but not the depth.

When we spoke above about them not being "treated the same", this was not meant to be implied that medical students are "treated worse". Rather, it is that the expectation for knowledge and skills is not the same for a PA student as it would be for a medical student. The requirements for the rotations are not the same. Despite what the average PA student may claim, medical students tend (and this is just my experience) to work more hours, take more call, and see more patients in the same amount of time. The examinations taken by medical students are more difficult than those taken by the PA students.

By way of example, medical students are required to round on inpatients before office or surgery and on weekends; they all carry several patients. The PAs are not; they are told that it is optional and I have not had a single one ask whether or not they should come in on the weekends or before the OR to see patients. They are not required to attend conferences and do not seek out learning experiences outside of what is required (the same is true of some medical students as well). YMMV. Thus, it is meaningless to say "we take the same classes" if the grading curve is much more difficult for one group of students than for the other and if the required work is more as well.

@southernIM was posting at the same time I was. He said what I was attempting to say very eloquently.
 
I once heard a PA who just graduated from a PA school claim that he does the same work as any ER resident. Frankly he works 36 hours a week in the ER with no call and twice the salary of a resident. The logic behind it is beyond me.

Also, one medical office receptionist tried to convince me that their PAs have absolutely the same skills as their dermatologists. Enough to say that I never scheduled my appointment there...
 
I once heard a PA who just graduated from a PA school claim that he does the same work as any ER resident. Frankly he works 36 hours a week in the ER with no call and twice the salary of a resident. The logic behind it is beyond me.

Also, one medical office receptionist tried to convince me that their PAs have absolutely the same skills as their dermatologists. Enough to say that I never scheduled my appointment there...
Yes, that happens.

We had a PA (X) who claimed, less than 3 months after graduation, that she "knew more than 1/2 the PCPs in this town".

Arrogance, thy name is X.
 
This isn't entirely true, but hopefully the point underlying this will be clear. The more you understand about human medicine, the less "confident," so to speak, you become about how "clear cut" certain things can be. As a layman, your understanding of medicine is pretty much zilch, thus clueless people make absolutely absurd claims regarding medical care, what they perceive to be "malpractice," etc. with misplaced confidence, totally unaware of how ridiculous they sound to actual physicians or healthcare professionals. The reason for this is because a lack of knowledge translates to a lack of possibility: you don't know enough to truly consider all the possibilities nor how to work up those possibilities.

Derm (and I'm sure @DermViser will agree with me here) is a prime example. If you know nothing about derm, then you perceive a visit to a dermatologist as "wtf they charged me $x and they looked at my skin for 5 minutes, those guys aren't real doctors!!!!1111" The reality, though, is that the differential diagnosis for most derm conditions is quite broad and include a number of conditions that you have likely never heard of and the subtleties of which most would fail to understand. Yet a degree of knowledge and expertise of just what is possible complicates problems significantly. Problems that were once "obvious" become less so, because you understand that several different things can superficially appear very similar. The job of a doctor is to understand these subtleties and develop the experience and expertise to differentiate among them.

This, in my view, is what is absolutely laughable about PAs, NPs, etc. claiming "they do everything a doctor does" and assert that they "know as much as a PCP." They hold this view because their knowledge is relatively limited and, consequently, they don't know about much less think about all of the possibilities that come with any presenting problem. Ignorance leads to arrogance. I just can't take any of those claims - like those made in the OP - seriously anymore. That's not to say that those providers don't have a place in our healthcare system or that they're stupid or otherwise incompetent. However, they don't even know what they don't know, and when you put that kind of person in charge of taking care of someone, the potential for danger arises. Sure, in 95% of cases the diagnosis just might be "clear cut," but what about that other 5%? What about the woman who presents with what appears to be eczema or an inflammatory lesion on the breast and is treated as such without any consideration that the actual cause might be a cancer? What happens when a condition that presents with vague findings isn't taken seriously and not properly investigated because the provider didn't think to look for something less obvious?

This is both the problem with giving independent practice rights to less rigorously trained providers and why it is difficult to demonstrate that the care is substandard. Most of the time, they'll be right. But do you want to be the person they get wrong? I certainly don't. But once again, making this point cogently to the lay public and to lawmakers responsible for regulating scope of practice is extremely difficult. Those of you who find yourselves in medical school one day will understand this later on in your training. It's a difficult point to accept or believe until you get yourself into the process to see just how complicated "basic" medicine can become.
 
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@NickNaylor speaks the truth.

Not infrequently I am faced with someone that has a presentation I am concerned/confused about yet they're been told by another provider with lesser credentials that its "nothing to worry about". Most of the time its fine but if you don't know the possibilities, you can't even begin to conceive them.

That being said, I need @DermViser in my office because I am running a special this month on breast rashes. If I see one more areolar dermatitis, I am quitting.
 
That being said, I need @DermViser in my office because I am running a special this month on breast rashes. If I see one more areolar dermatitis, I am quitting.
I'll be happy to see them in your office, and I'll give them this face while examining them:


You might lose some business though.
 
I can't believe they complain about that stuff to a surgical oncologist. I mean, really?
If it is located between the clavicle and the abdomen, it gets referred to me. You can't blame the patient - its the referring physician. Some of the patients are sort of embarrassed to be in the specialist's office (and often have to pay a higher co-pay for that privilege).

Recently I found out that the PCPs often call me a breast "specialist" rather than surgeon. Apparently the latter scares people.
 
Derm (and I'm sure @DermViser will agree with me here) is a prime example. If you know nothing about derm, then you perceive a visit to a dermatologist as "wtf they charged me $x and they looked at my skin for 5 minutes, those guys aren't real doctors!!!!1111" The reality, though, is that the differential diagnosis for most derm conditions is quite broad and include a number of conditions that you have likely never heard of and the subtleties of which most would fail to understand. Yet a degree of knowledge and expertise of just what is possible complicates problems significantly. Problems that were once "obvious" become less so, because you understand that several different things can superficially appear very similar. The job of a doctor is to understand these subtleties and develop the experience and expertise to differentiate among them.

+1 to your whole post, but especially this. I was trying to telepathically ask for @DermViser 's help today when I had no idea what my pt's rash was or what to treat it with. Uhhhhhh steroids? 😀 Day 2 this week when derm has stumped me.
 
This isn't entirely true, but hopefully the point underlying this will be clear. The more you understand about human medicine, the less "confident," so to speak, you become about how "clear cut" certain things can be. As a layman, your understanding of medicine is pretty much zilch, thus clueless people make absolutely absurd claims regarding medical care, what they perceive to be "malpractice," etc. with misplaced confidence, totally unaware of how ridiculous they sound to actual physicians or healthcare professionals. The reason for this is because a lack of knowledge translates to a lack of possibility: you don't know enough to truly consider all the possibilities nor how to work up those possibilities.

Derm (and I'm sure @DermViser will agree with me here) is a prime example. If you know nothing about derm, then you perceive a visit to a dermatologist as "wtf they charged me $x and they looked at my skin for 5 minutes, those guys aren't real doctors!!!!1111" The reality, though, is that the differential diagnosis for most derm conditions is quite broad and include a number of conditions that you have likely never heard of and the subtleties of which most would fail to understand. Yet a degree of knowledge and expertise of just what is possible complicates problems significantly. Problems that were once "obvious" become less so, because you understand that several different things can superficially appear very similar. The job of a doctor is to understand these subtleties and develop the experience and expertise to differentiate among them.

This, in my view, is what is absolutely laughable about PAs, NPs, etc. claiming "they do everything a doctor does" and assert that they "know as much as a PCP." They hold this view because their knowledge is relatively limited and, consequently, they don't know about much less think about all of the possibilities that come with any presenting problem. Ignorance leads to arrogance. I just can't take any of those claims - like those made in the OP - seriously anymore. That's not to say that those providers don't have a place in our healthcare system or that they're stupid or otherwise incompetent. However, they don't even know what they don't know, and when you put that kind of person in charge of taking care of someone, the potential for danger arises. Sure, in 95% of cases the diagnosis just might be "clear cut," but what about that other 5%? What about the woman who presents with what appears to be eczema or an inflammatory lesion on the breast and is treated as such without any consideration that the actual cause might be a cancer? What happens when a condition that presents with vague findings isn't taken seriously and not properly investigated because the provider didn't think to look for something less obvious?

This is both the problem with giving independent practice rights to less rigorously trained providers and why it is difficult to demonstrate that the care is substandard. Most of the time, they'll be right. But do you want to be the person they get wrong? I certainly don't. But once again, making this point cogently to the lay public and to lawmakers responsible for regulating scope of practice is extremely difficult. Those of you who find yourselves in medical school one day will understand this later on in your training. It's a difficult point to accept or believe until you get yourself into the process to see just how complicated "basic" medicine can become.
I think medical students have a difficulty understanding this bc at least in the first 2 years everything is taught as: list of symptoms = disease => treat. That's great for the first 2 years and even Step 1 which tests on classic presentations of diseases but in real medicine it just isn't like that, which you aren't exposed to until MS-3. Even then I think you're not exposed to this in real time until residency. It's then when you realize that the diseases you learned about in such intense detail, don't present exactly the way the PhD presented it on his powerpoint slide in the real world, or that IM diseases don't present in such a neat fashion that Step Up to Medicine makes it out to be.

Often times, the "classic" presentation of a disease is many times the late stages of disease and by then it's too late.

The differential diagnosis process of ruling things in and out (based on history, physical, labs, tests, imaging, etc.) is a cognitive process, something that is rehashed again and again in MS-3 and in residency in any specialty. Very rarely will an attending let you get away with you saying the patient's symptoms, then saying bc it's those symptoms, it is X disease and I want to treat with this. He/She will always ask you: What's your differential?

The problem with PAs is that they truly "don't know what they don't know". They may be trained to notice the horses, but they'll only recognize those horses if there are no curveballs thrown in and you can forget about diagnosing zebras as these things aren't even on their radar screen. This happens in Derm all the time, in which PAs can handle very basic skin diseases - seborrheic keratoses, uncomplicated eczema, acne, etc. but you can forget things like bullous pemphighoid, pemphigus vulgaris, etc. oh and forget about a PA being able to handle systemic agents: methotrexate, biologics, and other systemic agents that require lab monitoring. If it's not part of your differential, then there is no way you will be able to diagnose it without possibly ordering too many labs and imaging, which is exactly what midlevels do - bc they're trying to find a needle in a haystack, so when the patient in front of them doesn't follow the algorithm, they freak out and just start shooting from the hip.

While PAs/NPs will laugh saying we say that we're being protectionist by saying they "don't know what they don't know" the truth is you'll see many times when you enter clinical training where the patient doesn't read like the textbook. Guess what? You're still responsible in finding out what's going on. The medical student/intern/resident realizes this and is humble enough to realize they don't know everything bc medicine is just that expansive. The PA/NP bc their knowledge base is so limited already, think they know everything bc EVERYTHING is a horse for them. This is why they are ridiculous enough to believe that primary care is so easy that they should be able to take over primary care, and that they know enough of when it's necessary to refer to a specialist (shudder).
 
It's not a matter of M3's being "treated worse"

We have PA students regularly do their surgery rotation with us.

They don't present patients on rounds.

They get third preference for OR casess (M4s>M3s>PAs), often meaning they don't go to the OR at all.

The people responsible for their education (their preceptors) are our PAs, not our attendings. They get very little face time with our attendings. When they go to clinic, they shadow rather than see patients on their own.

They work probably 2/3 the hours that our students do. They don't work weekends. They don't take call. They don't have a designed didactic curriculum the way our students do (or if they do I never see it because it doesn't take place in our hospitals and it isn't taught by surgical faculty). They don't go to the surgical skills sim lab to do sessions on knot tying, central line, ultrasound, lap skills, chest tubes - which our M3s do. They don't do SP sessions - which our M3s do. And they only rotate with us for 4 weeks; our med students are with us for 10.

It is a completely different experience from the ground up.


Sounds to me like you might not have a full understanding of the PA role/curriculum? The University of Iowa has the PA students and medical students take many of the same courses together (shocking, right?). Also, any accredited PA program will obviously have a designed didactic curriculum. The training is indeed shorter but they cover many, not all, of the same things, and obviously not in the same depth. If the PA students are merely "shadowing" during clinicals then you must be at the worlds worst PA program. Students would most certainly be expected to see patients on their own etc etc.
 
Sounds to me like you might not have a full understanding of the PA role/curriculum? The University of Iowa has the PA students and medical students take many of the same courses together (shocking, right?). Also, any accredited PA program will obviously have a designed didactic curriculum. The training is indeed shorter but they cover many, not all, of the same things, and obviously not in the same depth. If the PA students are merely "shadowing" during clinicals then you must be at the worlds worst PA program. Students would most certainly be expected to see patients on their own etc etc.
@southernIM is a surgery resident who has worked with med students and PAs so I'm pretty sure he has a more full understanding of their role and the realities of their clinical role on the team, than you realize.
 
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+1 to your whole post, but especially this. I was trying to telepathically ask for @DermViser 's help today when I had no idea what my pt's rash was or what to treat it with. Uhhhhhh steroids? 😀 Day 2 this week when derm has stumped me.
Are you on a Dermatology elective rotation?
 
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Some absolutely invaluable information in this thread. Was a real pleasure to just read through all of your posts to get knowledgable opinions on this topic. Thank you guys for that.
 
Sounds to me like you might not have a full understanding of the PA role/curriculum? The University of Iowa has the PA students and medical students take many of the same courses together (shocking, right?). Also, any accredited PA program will obviously have a designed didactic curriculum. The training is indeed shorter but they cover many, not all, of the same things, and obviously not in the same depth. If the PA students are merely "shadowing" during clinicals then you must be at the worlds worst PA program. Students would most certainly be expected to see patients on their own etc etc.

What whaa really? Like exact same classes/tests?
EDIT: Including anatomy?
 
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So as a student trying to decide between MD/DO vs PA should I not let


What whaa really? Like exact same classes/tests?
EDIT: Including anatomy?
I wouldn't believe anyone until you see some school pitting their students against Step 1 and seeing if they pass. If these students are really trained at the same difficulty, in the same classes,and at the same level as med students, then they should have no issue passing the same exam. Until then imo they have no more credibility than the NP program that said its students could pass it (a watered down version in fact) and failed to prove it.
 
They are essentially treated the same on rotations as we are. What's wrong with that?
It doesn't make us feel special and mom and dad say we are. How dare someone turn me into a common daisy from a rare orchid. 🙁
If white coats (short) didn't have school patches, half the time I wouldn't tell the difference between a PA student or an MS3/MS4. The PA student on peds gave me a better signout than the peds MS3 last night.

Edit: PA students at our institution are often part of the attending/resident/MS team and not specifically with a PA-C. Their roles are completely different if they're with another PA or the former team. Meh.
 
Sounds to me like you might not have a full understanding of the PA role/curriculum? The University of Iowa has the PA students and medical students take many of the same courses together (shocking, right?). Also, any accredited PA program will obviously have a designed didactic curriculum. The training is indeed shorter but they cover many, not all, of the same things, and obviously not in the same depth. If the PA students are merely "shadowing" during clinicals then you must be at the worlds worst PA program. Students would most certainly be expected to see patients on their own etc etc.

I am a general surgery resident, at a highly ranked medical school. The PA students I've worked with come from a neighboring school to do rotations with us.

I'm telling the reality of how PA students are treated on their clinical rotations at my hospital, from my experience. I'd caution you not to so fully drink the kool-aid that the administration gives pre-PA students.
 
What whaa really? Like exact same classes/tests?
EDIT: Including anatomy?

Yes, exact same classes, I'm not sure if anatomy is included but a few of the externs(4th year med students) I've talked to said they take biochem, pathophysiology, pharm, and other classes with the PA students. Not sure about anatomy.
 
I am a general surgery resident, at a highly ranked medical school. The PA students I've worked with come from a neighboring school to do rotations with us.

I'm telling the reality of how PA students are treated on their clinical rotations at my hospital, from my experience. I'd caution you not to so fully drink the kool-aid that the administration gives pre-PA students.

Unfortunately, PA students might get the short end of the stick at large teaching hospitals, especially in surgery. What was your experience with the PA students in other clinical settings besides surgery?
 
Yes, exact same classes, I'm not sure if anatomy is included but a few of the externs(4th year med students) I've talked to said they take biochem, pathophysiology, pharm, and other classes with the PA students. Not sure about anatomy.

Id be willing to bet though the information expected to learn was (on average) less?
 
I once heard a PA who just graduated from a PA school claim that he does the same work as any ER resident. Frankly he works 36 hours a week in the ER with no call and twice the salary of a resident. The logic behind it is beyond me.

Also, one medical office receptionist tried to convince me that their PAs have absolutely the same skills as their dermatologists. Enough to say that I never scheduled my appointment there...

I see 2-3x the patient's that our PA's see in the ED and they aren't even allowed to see priority 1 or 2 patients. We are much quicker, efficient, and capable in the ED than our colleagues, likely because no one expects them to be that fast or to see the truly sick patients.
 
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Yes, exact same classes, I'm not sure if anatomy is included but a few of the externs(4th year med students) I've talked to said they take biochem, pathophysiology, pharm, and other classes with the PA students. Not sure about anatomy.

I took biochem, pathophys, and pharm as an undergrad, does that make me a PA equivalent when I graduated?
 
I also helped teach the PA anatomy class as a MS IV, does that fill in the remaining gap? Can I stencil in the M.D., P.A., M.S., B.S.?
 
What's funny about that is in a lot of states you can sit for Step 3 the day you start residency, then get your own independent license and DEA number to be a true "physician." Too bad you won't get hired by anyone though.

The days of the GP seem to be long gone. Honestly I can't imagine doing just one year of residency and feeling competent enough in my own skills to go strike out on my own, but maybe my position will change by the time I finish up intern year.
 
The days of the GP seem to be long gone. Honestly I can't imagine doing just one year of residency and feeling competent enough in my own skills to go strike out on my own, but maybe my position will change by the time I finish up intern year.

I'm curious as to what you and others might think about this: http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-10-most-in-demand-clinician-specialties.html

From what I can see this at least lacks an important regional demand component. Are these the realities of demand, or are PA and NP just going to keep moving up the list until the list becomes irrelevant (For primary care specialities at least)?
 
I'm curious as to what you and others might think about this: http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...-10-most-in-demand-clinician-specialties.html

From what I can see this at least lacks an important regional demand component. Are these the realities of demand, or are PA and NP just going to keep moving up the list until the list becomes irrelevant (For primary care specialities at least)?

It seems to me that a huge component of the physician "shortage" is maldistribution. Even in the "lower paying" specialties I've seen and heard to excellent job opportunities in places that most wouldn't be willing to go.

The AANP and other organizations make claims that they fill "underserved gaps" though I haven't seen any data that shows that they actually fill them. In other words, I'm not convinced that NPs are going to the areas where MDs won't. And the increased demand for NPs makes sense: in states with expanded scope of practice, you can have providers that provide services similar to those of a physician at half the cost. It's a pure money move.
 
It seems to me that a huge component of the physician "shortage" is maldistribution. Even in the "lower paying" specialties I've seen and heard to excellent job opportunities in places that most wouldn't be willing to go.

The AANP and other organizations make claims that they fill "underserved gaps" though I haven't seen any data that shows that they actually fill them. In other words, I'm not convinced that NPs are going to the areas where MDs won't. And the increased demand for NPs makes sense: in states with expanded scope of practice, you can have providers that provide services similar to those of a physician at half the cost. It's a pure money move.

So wouldn't that mean that, due to maldistribution, there is actually not a demand for PCPs, but instead for "Primary Care" in general regardless of the provider (PCP, NP, PA)? That's where I get confused when they say that FP is the most in demand specialty. It would appear that isn't the case at all, they just need someone to provide the service of family medicine.
 
I took biochem, pathophys, and pharm as an undergrad, does that make me a PA equivalent when I graduated?
Last time I checked there was a difference between undergraduate level courses and courses offered to PA and med students....read what I wrote before you make silly statements like that.
 
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