MSTP Personal Finance

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Coolios

The Freshmaker
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Maybe a current MSTP student could answer this question for me. Since your stipend is paid out of an NIH grant, do you have to pay income taxes on it? I'm just curious because I feel like the difference between the two options would be the difference between living just above the poverty line or living in relative security in higher-cost areas.

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Yep, need to set aside a few hundred dollars a month for IRS.
 
Graduate assistants stipends paid from R01's usually have IRS withholding.

Those of you with training grants, like F's, may not have withholding. This includes folks who are in medical school phase of your MSTP. Even though you don't have withholding, you should still pay taxes, and do so on a quarterly basis (or you get penalized).

As usual, check with senior students and your tax advisors.
 
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Graduate assistants stipends paid from R01's usually have IRS withholding.

Those of you with training grants, like F's, may not have withholding. This includes folks who are in medical school phase of your MSTP. Even though you don't have withholding, you should still pay taxes, and do so on a quarterly basis (or you get penalized).

As usual, check with senior students and your tax advisors.

:thumbup: Yep, all of this is right on.
 
Are there any other current student's opinions on this? I talked with a tax specialist and he said that during the med school only phases that the stipend is tax exempt because there are "no services rendered." Summer rotations, grad school years are taxable though. Everybody else I've talked to, however, is planning on paying taxes on all of it.

I just got my first paycheck and I'm going to set the money aside, but I'd rather keep it if it's legal....
 
Are there any other current student's opinions on this? I talked with a tax specialist and he said that during the med school only phases that the stipend is tax exempt because there are "no services rendered."

See IRS Publication 970.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p970.pdf

I think it is very clear that the part of the fellowship you take home represents taxable income except the parts you use to buy books/supplies with it that are required of the entire class.

Since taxes are not withheld, you are responsible to send in quarterly checks to the IRS. See form 1040-ES.

I feel like the difference between the two options would be the difference between living just above the poverty line or living in relative security in higher-cost areas.

I think this is an exaggeration. If it makes you feel any better most states exempt the fellowships and even the city tax where I'm at is either not paid or you only have to pay half of the tax. Also you are not responsible for self-employment tax which includes things like social security/FICA/etc... So it is essentially the take home pay of someone earning a few more thousand than you are.

But that's still an exaggeration. On the popular forums for my city someone recently asked if it was possible to live where I live on $75k/year. Much discussion ensued about whether that was possible. :scared:
 
You are talking about around 2000k in taxes if your stipend is 27000k (depending on exemptions), so I think exaggeration is an understatement.
 
Are there any other current student's opinions on this? I talked with a tax specialist and he said that during the med school only phases that the stipend is tax exempt because there are "no services rendered." Summer rotations, grad school years are taxable though. Everybody else I've talked to, however, is planning on paying taxes on all of it.

I just got my first paycheck and I'm going to set the money aside, but I'd rather keep it if it's legal....
Unfortunately, you will have to pay taxes regardless of where you are at in your training on any money for living expenses. Go to the IRS website and get a copy of the forms for the 2008 1040 ES, which comes with little chits you can use to make your quarterly payments. The next one is due on Sept. 15, so don't put it off. You should also make quarterly payments to your state for state taxes, unless you are lucky enough to be living in a state like FL that doesn't have taxes. Again, go to your state gov. website and get their version of the 1040 ES and be prepared to make the first payment by Sept. 15. (Note that it has to be *postmarked* by that date, not arrived.)

Don't think that the IRS doesn't follow up on these things just because your income is relatively low or a few years have gone by. I recently got audited, and I had to send in a copy of my award letter from a couple of years ago so that they'd know I really wasn't self-employed at that time. The confusion came because I got a 1099-MISC, which is the same thing that people who are self-employed get. Long story, but that's what the school gave me. Moral of the story: you should keep copies of everything, including your award letters each year, for five years after you graduate. The penalties I had accrued for not paying my alleged self-employment tax made me go:

:wow: :eek: :bang:

Fortunately, I was able to straighten it out....at least I haven't heard back from them so far.... :scared:

Edit: Actually, I spoke too soon. I just got a letter from them today that says they're reviewing my response, and they'll get back to me next month. I do not have to respond to this letter. :smuggrin: :rolleyes:
 
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PA exempts all graduate student incomes, so look into your state to find out if you have to pay taxes or not.

Now the advice you are being given on this forum is THE CORRECT ADVICE to the best of my knowledge. It's not, however, what everyone does. I've seen a lot of students that do not file income taxes with the IRS AT ALL. Since this fellowship income often isn't reported to the IRS, the hope from those students that don't file is that the IRS will never realize they made that money.

It's a risky and illegal gamble and I don't recommend it. I do just want to point out that senior students can be kind of useless when it comes to this advice. When I started I can't remember how many times I heard "I just use my parents accountant and he takes care of it" or "you mean that's taxable? I don't get a W2 so I don't pay taxes!"
 
Once you calculate how much you need to save monthly for taxes, I would encourage you to double it. You can start building savings. It may reduce your current standard of living by a hair but you'll figure out how to make due...

When you need to replace your alternator, cuff out $1K for USMLE 2CS, do away rotations, and spend insane $$$ on residency matching, you'll be happy you did.
 
Case Western takes out taxes for you. It stinks, but it's kind of convenient for financially lazy people like me. Also, don't forget about any city/county/regional taxes you might have to pay. We have that here in Cleveland, too. Where is all that money going, btw? This place is a dump! :laugh:

-X
 
One poster posted the following but wanted the post removed after my response. I think it's an important topic so I left it while leaving out the identity of the poster who by the way is a pre-med and has not actually done this.

Something else to think about:

As a MD/PhD student, I'm fairly certain your still available for both subsidized and unsubsidized Stafford loans. I was talking to some of the residents I work with, and they were saying that a lot of economically-minded people will take out those loans even if they dont need them, but them in a money market account, and use the interest to pay off the principal until the subsidization runs out, thereby obtaining a few thousand free bucks in the process. You can do it with unsubsidized too, the only difference is that you make less since your profit is based on the difference between the MMF's interest and the loan's interest rather than the MMFs interest and 0.

I believe that this proposition is illegal. You're not supposed to take out government-subsidized loans with the goal of investing them and making money.
 
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I believe that this proposition is illegal. You're not supposed to take out government-subsidized loans with the goal of investing them and making money.
I agree that this is probably illegal and definitely not worth the risk of getting caught. See my above post about dealing with the IRS. :rolleyes:

If you want to make money while you're in grad school, pick up some classes to teach, or move in with a roommate or two so that your stipend goes farther.
 
I don't think using student loans for non-educational purposes is illegal so much as violating the terms of your contract. Your lender could sue you in court and you'd have to pay the money back along with some penalties. IANAL!, but the only way it would be illegal would be for you to intentionally take out loans to invest in stocks, CD's, or hookers, and then not pay it back. Then it would become fraud. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing a lot of money and being really embarrassed!

Thoughts?

Oh yeah. OP: Graduate stipends aren't much but they're a lot better than the actual poverty line. The poverty line is set really really low.

-X
 
I don't think using student loans for non-educational purposes is illegal so much as violating the terms of your contract. Your lender could sue you in court and you'd have to pay the money back along with some penalties. IANAL!, but the only way it would be illegal would be for you to intentionally take out loans to invest in stocks, CD's, or hookers, and then not pay it back. Then it would become fraud. Otherwise, you run the risk of losing a lot of money and being really embarrassed!

Thoughts?

Oh yeah. OP: Graduate stipends aren't much but they're a lot better than the actual poverty line. The poverty line is set really really low.

-X


I agree. You could definitely use the money to buy a house. This is both an investment and an accepted expense (since you need to live somewhere).
Alternatively, you can take the money out for educational expenses, and take probably more than you need. Any left over you can probably invest as long as you never go below the oringinating amout, so that if you needed to pay it back ASAP you could.

Investing in hookers is probably not a wise investment strategy. :p
 
What is a Graduate Assistant and how does it let you open a Roth? I've been trying to figure a way to do tax-deferred saving and have been stymied so far, so even if it means taking on extra work I'd be interested.
 
OK, I thought I'd bump this because I found this out today and am in a huff about it (mostly because I didn't expect it...)

Does everyone have to pay their own Step 2 fees (1055 for CS and 495 or so for CK)? I just figured my program would cover it since they did for Step 1 but they don't. I don't really understand the distinction though - they are both boards tests and both graduation requirements.

I know MSTP is a great deal and everything but finding out I have to pay ~$1500 in the next couple of months that I didn't know about makes me sad... that's a lot of food and airline tickets to visit the SO. :mad:
 
I love MD/PhD program fees. We pay for this, but not this. We pay for that, but not that other thing. Thanks for warning me anyways. Step 2 CS is the biggest waste of money and time of anything in all of medicine. I feel bad for the MD/PhD students who wouldn't have had to take it if they hadn't done a PhD :laugh:
 
I love MD/PhD program fees. We pay for this, but not this. We pay for that, but not that other thing. Thanks for warning me anyways. Step 2 CS is the biggest waste of money and time of anything in all of medicine. I feel bad for the MD/PhD students who wouldn't have had to take it if they hadn't done a PhD :laugh:

Ditto this! I'm about to take it... and it's been like 6 months since I've put on a white coat and seen actual patients... :)
 
Actually, our constitution and supreme court's past rulings would argue that you don't have to pay federal or state income tax as an md/phd student.

if you check article 1, which has not been repealed or amended, the federal government is forbidden from levying a direct tax on individuals unless apportioned to the state governments (income tax is not).

if you look at section ten, no state may make anything other than gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debt nor alter any contracts.

if you look at Pollock vs Farmer's Loan and Trust Co., you'll see that levying an income tax has been specifically struck down by the supreme court.

Now, you might get all 16th amendment on me, which says, "Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

However, in both Brushaber vs Union Pacific R.R. Co. and Stanton vs Baltic Mining Co., the Supreme Court ruled against the power of the federal government to collect an income tax. Unfortunately for the IRS, the DIRECT TAX clause was never repealed from the constitution; therefore, the supreme court rule that if an income tax was to be taken without apportionment among the states, it could not be a direct tax.

Our constitution clearly outlines three classes of indirect taxes: duties, imposts and excises. Therefore, income tax, via section 1 and amendment 16 can only be taken from duties, imposts and excises.

This is affirmed by the ruling in Stanton stating "...it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged."

If you read the Brushaber ruling, you'll find the following, "taxation on income was in its nature an excise." An indirect tax, oh crap! BUT! Luckily, we have Flint vs Stone Tracy Co. to the rescue! Which defines an excise (and was referenced in both previous cases). Excises taxes are defined as "taxes laid on the manufacture, sale or consumption of commodities within the country, upon licenses to pursue certain occupations and upon corporate privileges; the requirement to pay such taxes involves the exercise of the privilege and if business is not done in the manner described no tax is payable...it is the privilege which is the subject of the tax and not the mere buying, selling or handling of goods."

Therefore, while it is legal to tax a license to produce a good, or to be say a medical doctor, that is as far as it is legal to proceed on the part of the IRS. Simply creating a tax code is not sufficient to legally take your money as a graduate student. To the best of my knowledge, the supreme court has yet to directly overturn these rulings. Therefore, if you decide not to pay your taxes this year, you have a fairly strong constitutional law argument if the IRS comes after you. Or you could be a sheep.
 
from irs.gov

Taxable Scholarships and Fellowships

If you received a scholarship or fellowship, all or part of it may be taxable, even if you did not receive a Form W-2. Generally, the entire amount is taxable if you are not a candidate for a degree.

If you are a candidate for a degree, you generally can exclude from income that part of the grant used for:

Tuition and fees required for enrollment or attendance, or
Fees, books, supplies, and equipment required for your courses.
You cannot exclude from income any part of the grant used for other purposes, such as room and board.
 
Therefore, if you decide not to pay your taxes this year, you have a fairly strong constitutional law argument if the IRS comes after you. Or you could be a sheep.

Baaaaaaah.

In my opinion, the government giveth, and the government can taketh away. Yeah it sucks to go from 25,000 to 23,000 per year, but it would suck even more to go from 25,000 per year to the -75,000 per year that most med students probably have to deal with. If the govrnment wants to pay for my medical school and then give me more money on top of that, I think I can handle a few forms and a little off the top.

But this whole paying quarterly taxes is strange and frightening to me. It will be quite a challenge to figure out how to fill out a new kind of federal tax form multiple times, and then on top of that to have to deal with living in two different states with two different tax forms as I move... Taxes will probably get the best of me this year. I've never used an accountant or a tax prep service, but this might be the year to start.

<3 USA <3
 
I have a quick tangentially related question, if someone doesn't mind answering. Do MSTP programs generally cover the COA of medical school + the stipend or is it tuition, fee + stipend?

Thanks
 
if by COA you mean expenses for cars, rent, strippers, etc... no.

tuition, (some) fees, stipend. the stipend, however, is designed to cover COA and no more, maybe less.
 
But this whole paying quarterly taxes is strange and frightening to me. It will be quite a challenge to figure out how to fill out a new kind of federal tax form multiple times, and then on top of that to have to deal with living in two different states with two different tax forms as I move... Taxes will probably get the best of me this year. I've never used an accountant or a tax prep service, but this might be the year to start.
I highly recommend doing this for your first year at least. I used H & R Block, and it was by far the best $130 I spent. After that, I knew how to report my stipend income, and I could do it by myself. Doing the quarterly payments is easy. Take 15% of your yearly stipend, divide it by four, and that's your quarterly payment. You'll need to use the 1040 ES instead of the 1040 EZ or 1040 A you've probably used in the past (assuming you've worked before). It's all online, and the government even gives you a set of nifty vouchers that you can use each quarter when you send in your payments. If you have a state income tax, you will need to do the same thing for them. Find out what your state's income tax percentage is, use it to estimate what you'll owe, divide it by four, and there you go. States with income taxes also have their own version of the 1040 ES. The instructions are all very self-explanatory. Trust me, the gov. doesn't exactly want to make it difficult for you to send them money. ;)
 
Just wanted to warn everyone that you'll likely have to pay taxes on additional fees that do not fall under "qualified expenses" on the 1099 form that you will get. In other words, you are not just paying taxes on your stipend, but also on health insurance, gym and other fees that get lumped into your overall total scholarship amount listed on the 1099. This will become apparent when you subtract the overall total scholarship amount minus the "qualified tuition, fees, etc" amount, which does NOT equal your stipend.

I suspect I am also paying taxes on a month's worth of stipend that they accidentally overpaid me and which I had to pay back immediately. Unfortunately, the breakdown isn't given on the 1099, so it's impossible for me to prove. So be careful about this and address the issue immediately rather than letting it wait until tax time comes around.
 
Trying to set up a budget based on this info and found out that TN doesn't have income tax :D :D :D. Yay!
 
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