MSTP "Safety" Schools

[Senlin]

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Hi everyone,

I'm applying MD/PhD only this cycle and I'm trying to figure out a list of schools. I know there's no real such thing as a safety when each program takes usually <15 people, but can anyone give me some suggestions?

These are the factors I'm considering in choosing my schools right now (in no particular order):
1) Location - East Coast preferred, though I'm a CA resident. I really do not want to end up in the Midwest for 8+ years. I don't mean any offense to anyone from say, Iowa, but I just think it's culturally too different for me. I've always lived in big, diverse cities. Chicago, LA, NYC, and Philadelphia are high on my list in terms of location.
2) US News research ranking. I know I should probably look at each school's research strengths, but I'm not looking to do something highly specific. I imagine that most top ~30 schools have decent research programs in cell biology, immunology, and/or cancer which are my interests.
3) MSTP or not? I think I'll only apply to MSTP schools?
4) Size of MD/PhD class vs. # of applications, to give me an idea of selectivity (turns out they're all selective! lol). I generally avoided schools that only take a very small class, e.g., Stanford accepted 5 out of 482 applicants last year. Is that a bad idea for me?

I'm a little hesitant to mention my stats for fear of being called a troll, but I will because this will help you get an idea of where I should apply. I have a perfect GPA from a top ~30 undergrad, 41 MCAT, and will have almost 3 years of research by the time I apply (no publications; 1 paper; 1 first author manuscript submitted to a field-specific journal which may not even accept it; MAYBE another manuscript by Octoberish). I'm currently a year out of school doing full-time research. I've some shadowing (~70 hours at several diff. institutions, with several diff. academics and a PCP), very little volunteering (will be ~30 hrs in June, and ongoing), 2 teaching experiences, and a few academic awards. Maybe 1-2 other things I can scrounge up, but not a lot. So, pretty weak ECs. I've done a fair amount of research, but I'm not one of those research hotshots at all. So please don't just look at the GPA and MCAT and call me a troll; those are just numbers and the rest of my app is not nearly as strong.

So, thoughts? Is 25 schools too much?
UPenn
JHU
Yale
Mt. Sinai
Columbia
Cornell
UCLA
UCSF
Northwestern
AECOM
Harvard
Chicago-Pritzker
NYU

And these I would probably dislike on the basis of location, but beggars can't be choosers... not to mention they're extremely competitive schools anyway.
WUSTL
UCSD
Michigan
Vanderbilt
UVa
Case Western
Duke
Pittsburgh
U Washington
UCI

See, all of these seem ridiculously hard to get into. I can't for the life of me think of something that's a safety 😱
Thanks in advance!

 

[dmblue]

Hi everyone,

I'm applying MD/PhD only this cycle and I'm trying to figure out a list of schools. I know there's no real such thing as a safety when each program takes usually <15 people, but can anyone give me some suggestions?

These are the factors I'm considering in choosing my schools right now (in no particular order):
1) Location - East Coast preferred, though I'm a CA resident. I really do not want to end up in the Midwest for 8+ years. I don't mean any offense to anyone from say, Iowa, but I just think it's culturally too different for me. I've always lived in big, diverse cities. Chicago, LA, NYC, and Philadelphia are high on my list in terms of location.
2) US News research ranking. I know I should probably look at each school's research strengths, but I'm not looking to do something highly specific. I imagine that most top ~30 schools have decent research programs in cell biology, immunology, and/or cancer which are my interests.
3) MSTP or not? I think I'll only apply to MSTP schools?
4) Size of MD/PhD class vs. # of applications, to give me an idea of selectivity (turns out they're all selective! lol). I generally avoided schools that only take a very small class, e.g., Stanford accepted 5 out of 482 applicants last year. Is that a bad idea for me?

I'm a little hesitant to mention my stats for fear of being called a troll, but I will because this will help you get an idea of where I should apply. I have a perfect GPA from a top ~30 undergrad, 41 MCAT, and will have almost 3 years of research by the time I apply (no publications; 1 paper; 1 first author manuscript submitted to a field-specific journal which may not even accept it; MAYBE another manuscript by Octoberish). I'm currently a year out of school doing full-time research. I've some shadowing (~70 hours at several diff. institutions, with several diff. academics and a PCP), very little volunteering (will be ~30 hrs in June, and ongoing), 2 teaching experiences, and a few academic awards. Maybe 1-2 other things I can scrounge up, but not a lot. So, pretty weak ECs. I've done a fair amount of research, but I'm not one of those research hotshots at all. So please don't just look at the GPA and MCAT and call me a troll; those are just numbers and the rest of my app is not nearly as strong.

So, thoughts? Is 25 schools too much?
UPenn
JHU
Yale
Mt. Sinai
Columbia
Cornell
UCLA
UCSF
Northwestern
AECOM
Harvard
Chicago-Pritzker
NYU

And these I would probably dislike on the basis of location, but beggars can't be choosers... not to mention they're extremely competitive schools anyway.
WUSTL
UCSD
Michigan
Vanderbilt
UVa
Case Western
Duke
Pittsburgh
U Washington
UCI

See, all of these seem ridiculously hard to get into. I can't for the life of me think of something that's a safety 😱
Thanks in advance!

I don't really have time to reply in depth to this, but as far as location goes. St. Louis, Ann Arbor, Pittsburgh and especially Seattle are nice cities. St. louis has some rough areas, but it's pretty nice overall. Ann Arbor is a smaller city but it's very metropolitan. Pittsburgh is a nice city, and Seattle is pretty amazing with the exception of the rain.

Your application is probably going to get you interviews at several top schools, so you don't need to worry so much. As long as your research is substantial, which it sound like it is, and you can interview well, you will be fine.

 

[MDPhDyeah]

Chill. You're fine. As long as you aren't a psycho, can intelligently discuss the research that you've done, and haven't pissed off your current PI you're probably fine applying to less schools. 15 would probably be a more reasonable number. Just begin digging around the forum for various advice about applications and interviews. Don't underestimate the weight research holds in these people's eyes though. I come from a poorly known school (though definitely rigorous) with a >3.9 gpa but a low 30's mcat.
In short, of the 7 mstp's I applied to (I definitely should have applied to more, but I applied to 4 non-mstps as well) I received interviews at 3 and was accepted to 2 of those (one of which is on your top list). I figure that my MCAT got me screened at some places.

What I believe really helped me (despite my poor mcat) was 1. having a great grasp of my research and the motivations behind it 2. being able to present my research very well during interviews. I've presented during summer research symposia as well as during a huge national meeting- all of this helped. 3. Despite it being in purely basic science research, being able to provide a clear medically-relevant justification for it. I actually have no publications yet, but am writing up one for a relatively top journal now (1st author woo).

With your numbers, and decent essays you're likely going to be offered an interview almost anywhere you apply. From there it's a matter of proving to them that you are who you say you are on paper and that you're joining an MD-PhD program for the right reasons. Good luck. There's a wealth of information on here.

 

[StIGMA]

3 things:
You will probably have a very successful application cycle, but don't blow off your essays/application/interviews.

How 'normal' you appear at your interviews will impact where you end up at certain schools, ie: if they peg you to be a future leader or not, or if the interviewer would like to be around you in the next few years, or if they see you as a future PI. I don't think most people meet any/all of these things, but they are intangibles that can be of great benefit.

I do not believe there are safety MSTP schools, at least by my application process. I was rejected to almost every 20-40 rank schools post-interview and accepted to all the top 20 ones where I got an interview. Point is you don't know what the programs are looking for/how you appear to them, so the more schools the better. At 15 schools and the list you have, you will likely have more than 1 acceptance if not many. Do not count out programs in locations you have not considered, because 1) free plane rides/trips rock, and seeing these places now will at least give you an idea about the place if you consider them for residency/work in the future and 2) you may learn things that impact your final choice among your 'preference' schools, ie: you may learn to favor certain program features more than others.

 

[muchomaas]

Chill. You're fine. As long as you aren't a psycho, can intelligently discuss the research that you've done, and haven't pissed off your current PI you're probably fine applying to less schools. Don't underestimate the weight research holds in these people's eyes though.

What I believe really helped me (despite my poor mcat) was 1. having a great grasp of my research and the motivations behind it 2. being able to present my research very well during interviews. I've presented during summer research symposia as well as during a huge national meeting- all of this helped. 3. Despite it being in purely basic science research, being able to provide a clear medically-relevant justification for it. I actually have no publications yet, but am writing up one for a relatively top journal now (1st author woo).

With your numbers, and decent essays you're likely going to be offered an interview almost anywhere you apply. From there it's a matter of proving to them that you are who you say you are on paper and that you're joining an MD-PhD program for the right reasons. Good luck. There's a wealth of information on here.

I would just like to temper this optimism. I thought I had pretty good #s, essays, lots of research exp., but the results of this past app. cycle weren't that great for me.

Also this point about being able to talk about your research, which has been emphasized a lot on this forum: I'd say that the details of my research came up in < 20% of my interviews, and these were usually ones with the PhDs I'd asked to interview with, not necessarily folks on the actually Committee. Typically interviews consist of telling them why you are applying MD/PhD, asking questions about the school, and listening to researchers talk about their own research.

Maybe I didn't do well because I didn't steer the interviews in the direction of my research (which, having done full-time for 3+ years, 5 pubs), I can explain rather well, but understanding your research could only be one of the many factors assessed.

 

[dmblue]

I would just like to temper this optimism. I thought I had pretty good #s, essays, lots of research exp., but the results of this past app. cycle weren't that great for me.

Also this point about being able to talk about your research, which has been emphasized a lot on this forum: I'd say that the details of my research came up in < 20% of my interviews, and these were usually ones with the PhDs I'd asked to interview with, not necessarily folks on the actually Committee. Typically interviews consist of telling them why you are applying MD/PhD, asking questions about the school, and listening to researchers talk about their own research.

Maybe I didn't do well because I didn't steer the interviews in the direction of my research (which, having done full-time for 3+ years, 5 pubs), I can explain rather well, but understanding your research could only be one of the many factors assessed.

you sure you applied md phd? Almost every single person asked me about my research

 

[muchomaas]

guess I'm an outlier

 

[Senlin]

I don't really have time to reply in depth to this, but as far as location goes. St. Louis, Ann Arbor, Pittsburgh and especially Seattle are nice cities. St. louis has some rough areas, but it's pretty nice overall. Ann Arbor is a smaller city but it's very metropolitan. Pittsburgh is a nice city, and Seattle is pretty amazing with the exception of the rain.

It's not that I don't think those might be intrinsically nice places to live; they're just very isolated from other large metropolitan areas where my friends live, and those are also not places that I'd be able to convince friends to visit, you know? I also don't drive and would rather not have to, so big cities with good public transportation systems are really ideal.

Almost every single person asked me about my research

So what if your research... isn't very good? It's not that I don't know what's going on, it's that the research isn't very innovative or cutting edge or high quality (and it's not really my "fault"). I can talk about it, but the schools I've listed are all top research schools and the professors there probably all have publications in high-impact journals. Will they look down on my research and say "oh, that's junk science"? I'm exaggerating a little -- my research hasn't been "junk science" but I think you get what I mean.

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Also, most of the schools I've listed accepted fairly large classes last year, like 10+ people. I figure if I apply to a limited # of schools, it makes more sense to apply to more schools that have more slots rather than schools that only took 4-5 people. Does this change from year to year? Does my logic make sense?

Thanks for your help so far 🙂

 

[StIGMA]

Unless funding changes, school class sizes should not change. The variable is how many people apply to each school, not simply the number each school accepts. Despite this, applying to schools with larger classes will be fine.

Whether your research topic is exciting or not does not matter. If your research is not 'innovative or cutting edge' then that is a problem, because you are not conducting research (I know what you meant). Frankly, most people do not know what the 'exciting' topics are outside of their field, and if you present your work the right way, any scientist should be excited to hear about it no matter what the topic. Every lab funded by an R01 should be doing innovative, high quality work, but even if you are from a smaller, less funded, less published lab you will still be fine as long as you put in the time and effort as anyone else. Your experience will show in your interviews.

 

[mcp15]

Also, most of the schools I've listed accepted fairly large classes last year, like 10+ people. I figure if I apply to a limited # of schools, it makes more sense to apply to more schools that have more slots rather than schools that only took 4-5 people. Does this change from year to year? Does my logic make sense?

Keep in mind that at all but maybe two programs, a class size of 10+ people means 25+ people were accepted. All the top programs are competing for the same students. Also, I can think of at least one case where a class size of 5 means not that the program is intentionally tiny but that the program administration grossly miscalculated the number of students to offer positions to.

To address your question here, I'm not sure that there is a significant correlation among MD/PhD programs between class size and your chances of acceptance. If you run the numbers on the program websites for WashU and Tri-I, for example - both top programs, WashU twice the size of the other - you get acceptance rates of 16% and 11%, respectively (calculated as accepts/apps). I think those rates are far more dependent on program reputation (i.e. how many 'top' applicants apply to that program) than sheer size.

I didn't apply to any really tiny programs (4-5 students/year) so I can't really speak to that. My inclination would be to say that those smaller programs are probably not MSTPs and so don't attract the same level of applicant on average; if that generalization holds true, it might actually be easier to gain admission to such programs.