MSU CHM vs. OUWB

[meepdog]

Hey all, I feel really lucky to be making the choice between two amazing schools. I find myself flip-flopping between the two quite a bit and would love some input from outside perspectives. I'm also on the waitlist at a school I would consider accepting over either of these, but since I could go through July without hearing anything from that school I'm looking to make a decision now as though these were my two options.

I'm a Michigan resident from Grand Rapids but haven't lived there for a while. As for career ambitions, I don't really know what specialty I'm interested in besides guessing not Peds, but I do know that I would like international work to be at least part of my working life. Here's my pros and cons list: (note: costs are tuition alone)

Michigan State University College of Human Medicine

Cost: $46,185, $156,560 over 4 years

Average Graduate Indebtedness: $245,945 for in-state

Pros:

-More clinical stuff, likely to help with CK which matters more now apparently

-Hometown hopefully, haven’t lived in Grand Rapids for almost a decade but it’s a great town and it would be good to be near family

-Smaller class size, but only by 25 seats

-Total tuition saved is 50k or more over 4 years

-Newfangled curriculum seems like fun, a lot of people seem to be listing it as a con but I’ve heard from students that it’s been successful for them and it’s in following of other top tier programs

-Really did like the interview day, just not quite as much as I liked OUWB

Cons:

-Less prestige, which might matter more with P/F USMLE

-Extra primary, rural focus which I’m not super pumped about

-New curriculum may leave students less solid in basic sciences

-Possibility of being placed in East Lansing for first 2 years, which would honestly be a deal-breaker

-Possibility of having to move to a more rural area for years 3 and 4


Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine

Cost: $54,928, $219,712 over 4 years

Average Graduate Indebtedness: $208,403, which I find confusing

Pros:

-Liked it more during interview day, the students and especially the faculty seemed really engaged

-Amazing medical system, exclusive access (2nd ranked in MI)

-Detroit is honestly still pretty cool, and not too far from GR anyway

-Very impressive match list for a new school, seems like it’s on the up-and-up

-Brand new laptop

Cons:

-More expensive, by a significant amount which I'm worried would limit my Global Health prospects because I'll be focused on paying off more debt

-Mandatory lectures (not really but to honor, which seems like it’s gonna make more of a difference with USMLE change)

-Would have to take pre-reqs before the end of summer which is just a pain (Psych and Stats)



Points to consider but aren’t skewed in either direction:

-Both have strong research opportunities

-Both tied to strong health systems

-Both relatively close to home, which is nice because I haven’t lived close to home in a long time

-Both have nice, new facilities

-Similar CoL in both areas

-Global Health opportunities are available through both programs, but seemed like an afterthought at both places

-MSU is P/F whereas OUWB is H/P/F, before the USMLE thing I would consider this a point in MSU’s favor but now with honors possibly mattering more this topic is muddied a little

Conclusions: I really did like both schools. I guess what my inner debate is boiling down to is whether the prestige/better matches coming out of OUWB outweigh the lower cost of MSU CHM. Anyway, I appreciate any input people have for me!

edit: added in average indebtedness for OUWB

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[ColdBrewChomps]

I think since you reiterate that you are not super keen on primary/rural care, OUWB seems like the better match for you. You liked it more on interview day and it seems like many more doors will be open for you if you attended OUWB instead of MSU. I think the extra 50k is worth it considering you are undecided right now and you'd rather go to a place that's more reputable nationally.

 

[souravdada]

Redo your cost calculation including cost of living in Grand Rapids, I do not think OUWB is going to be that much more.

 

[meepdog]

I think since you reiterate that you are not super keen on primary/rural care, OUWB seems like the better match for you. You liked it more on interview day and it seems like many more doors will be open for you if you attended OUWB instead of MSU. I think the extra 50k is worth it considering you are undecided right now and you'd rather go to a place that's more reputable nationally.

So my question I guess is whether or not the prestige difference is actually real or all that significant, or if I'm just inflating it because it's my own personal situation. The institutions OUWB sends people to are impressive but in terms of specialty matching MSU actually ends up with slightly more non-PCP residents. Like if a PD at a higher-ranked residency looks at an application with MSU vs. OUWB on there is it going to really sway their decision one way or the other?

 

[meepdog]

Redo your cost calculation including cost of living in Grand Rapids, I do not think OUWB is going to be that much more.

So I finally managed to find the average indebtedness for OUWB students, which is actually around 40k lower than the IS average at MSU. I actually find this really surprising: I know that GR has gotten more expensive, but the area around Oakland's campus is also known to be pretty pricey and looking at apartment rents in both areas they seemed comparable. I guess what I really need to do is wait on financial aid to get my actual numbers. What I have heard is that OUWB is really generous with scholarships to a very few number of students, and I don't predict being one of them. I worry that this might be driving the average down a bit.

 

[Biscuitboy11]

Prestige is a funny thing- if you're talking momentum, MSU on the way down because of Larry Nasser, don't know how long that albatross will continue? Maybe Oakland on the way up?
It also may only be perception, but as a former Michigan resident, Beaumont is "tied" with Henry Ford for second-best hospital in Michigan, after University Hospital in Ann Arbor. And as you mentioned, there is a fair amount going on these days in the Detroit area. Would recommend Oakland between the two.

 

[ColdBrewChomps]

So my question I guess is whether or not the prestige difference is actually real or all that significant, or if I'm just inflating it because it's my own personal situation. The institutions OUWB sends people to are impressive but in terms of specialty matching MSU actually ends up with slightly more non-PCP residents. Like if a PD at a higher-ranked residency looks at an application with MSU vs. OUWB on there is it going to really sway their decision one way or the other?

to be honest, if we were talking about a school like OSU/UCI/Einstein vs OUWB/MSU then yes that would definitely sway a PD one way over another. However, I think there is negligible difference between OUWB vs MSU in terms of prestige/reputation. Both are very solid schools but neither has that national clout that would sway a PD one way over the other (however I could argue that OUWB has a slighttttt edge here). So don't think about the prestige in this case but rather your fit and which schools best provides you with the opportunities to do what you may want to do in the future

 

[FriendlyNeighborhoodPremd]

Hey meepdog!
Wondering if you've gotten any further in your decision process (or if you ended up getting off that waitlist)? I'm sitting in the exact same spot and am struggling with similar pros and cons. My only added con is that it seemed as though the the students at OU are much more stressed with the curriculum in M1 and M2. So I'm weighing the difference between M1&M2 vs M3&M4.
First two years at MSU seem more flexible and like a curriculum that would actually help me learn better, and at OU it is just consistently binge remembering lectures.
But, all the M3&M4s I talked to on interview day at OU seemed in great moods and that they loved their rotations (I didn't talk to any upperclassmen at MSU so I can't quite compare that directly)
So I'm debating if the clinical and match opportunities at OU would outweigh the potential stress of the first two years.
Did you have any more thoughts on the subject?

 

[altblue]

I interviewed at both programs... Beaumont is stronger than Spectrum Health/Sparrow/MacLaren and there isn't a chance you'd be shipped across the state at OUWB for M3/M4, which might end up being the case for you at MSUCHM

 

[FriendlyNeighborhoodPremd]

I absolutely agree Beaumont is stronger, I guess I’m just trying to gauge how much of an impact that would really have on how much I learn, residency potential, Step 2 prep, etc.
Yeah that was originally a huge con for me, but after thinking about it either my partner will have gotten a job in wherever I spend my first two years and will give me a valid reason to stay, or worst case my parents live really close to one of the other, less sought after hospitals and I would just have free rent for two years.

 

[altblue]

I absolutely agree Beaumont is stronger, I guess I’m just trying to gauge how much of an impact that would really have on how much I learn, residency potential, Step 2 prep, etc.
Yeah that was originally a huge con for me, but after thinking about it either my partner will have gotten a job in wherever I spend my first two years and will give me a valid reason to stay, or worst case my parents live really close to one of the other, less sought after hospitals and I would just have free rent for two years.

Oh it's not just GR/East Lansing - Flint, Traverse City and the U.P. are all possibilities. This isn't a big deal for most people, and it wasn't for me. But for people with significant ties to a particular city, it could matter.

 

[FriendlyNeighborhoodPremd]

Yes, sorry I wasn’t clear! For M3/4 I know GR and EL are the popular choices, and my parents live close to one of the other hospital sites that isn’t commonly chosen as a preference so I’m fairly confident I would at least get that if I didn’t get my first choice, so that isn’t as impactful to my decision making as it may be for others.
I am mostly just trying to weigh the benefit of a preferred M1/2 curriculum at MSU to doing M3/4 rotations at as good of a hospital as Beaumont.

 

[m1redsox]

My vote is actually for Michigan State. PD rankings have it significantly higher (MSU CHM doesn’t participate in USWNR rankings). According to MSAR, Michigan State has significantly more NIH research funding ($23 million vs $3 million at OUWB). It has cheaper tuition and COL. P/F grading will make a big difference on your stress levels. Non-mandatory lectures are SUPER nice. AND it’s closer to family. Sure, OUWB has the better hospital attached, but I think the reasoning above outweighs that. Plus, if you really wanted, you could always try to match there for residency.
That all being said, if either of them give you any fin aid, go with that one because there isn’t much of a difference between these two schools.

 

[meepdog]

If you want to do internal medicine, check out the residents at Beaumont Royal Oak, it may help you make your decision

Thanks for your comment! I know they have a great program.

Since the deadline was 4/30, I already pulled the trigger for MSU. Finances ended up being the deciding factor, since they're both great options

 

[Gilakend]

MSU CHM > OUWB in prestige according to residency directors. I know you made your decision, but just in case someone is reading this next year.

Reddit post of residency director rankings