MSU tragedy

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Doctor Eliza

Doctor Eliza

Full Member
Verified Member
Psychologist
Verified Expert
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
1,052
Reaction score
535
Points
4,731
  1. Psychologist
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this as a student/professor/psychologist. Given my ties to the school, it hit really close to home. I’m wondering how they will manage to finish the semester in the wake of such trauma.
 
Also close ties to the school, but physically removed by time at this point. Good question. Always tough to tell how desensitized some are to this sort of thing given the frequency at which it occurs. I mean, they're not even that far removed from the Oxford shooting, which was relatively close by.
 
Once it was clear that slaughtering kindergartners (Sandy Hook) was acceptable to those in power, I gave up hope that anything substantial will change in regard to gun legislation. We are the only modern country in the world who regularly has mass shootings, yet our leaders fail to adequately respond, which makes MSU just one of hundreds of mass shootings each year. The response cycle is the same, which speaks to how numb everyone has become to these events.

I have had the unfortunate experience to respond to numerous mass casualty events (including school shootings), and the trauma is far reaching within communities. There was even an attack at one of my former Unis, and that experience just reinforced how numb we have become to these attacks.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Once it was clear that slaughtering kindergartners (Sandy Hook) was acceptable to those in power, I gave up hope that anything substantial will change in regard to gun legislation. We are the only modern country in the world who regularly has mass shootings, yet our leaders fail to adequately respond, which makes MSU just one of hundreds of mass shootings each year. The response cycle is the same, which speaks to how numb everyone has become to these events.

I have had the unfortunate experience to respond to numerous mass casualty events (including school shootings), and the trauma is far reaching within communities. There was even an attack at one of my former Unis, and that experience just reinforced how numb we have become to these attacks.
Click to expand...

I mean, we're only averaging a little over 1.5 mass shootings....a day.
 
and I think it connects well with the CDC report of significant, and worsening, mental health challenges for our youth, especially persistent sadness and hopelessness. I'm not sure how to understand the fact that girls reported more sadness, hopelessness, being bullied, being sexually assaulted, and suicidality, than boys, yet I think 100% of school shooters have been male.
 
calimich said:
and I think it connects well with the CDC report of significant, and worsening, mental health challenges for our youth, especially persistent sadness and hopelessness. I'm not sure how to understand the fact that girls reported more sadness, hopelessness, being bullied, being sexually assaulted, and suicidality, than boys, yet I think 100% of school shooters have been male.
Click to expand...

Well, nearly 100%, at least one of the first high profile school shooters was female. And at least one in eh past few years over in Idaho or something was a female student. So, nearly 100% would be accurate, but not 100%.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Once it was clear that slaughtering kindergartners (Sandy Hook) was acceptable to those in power, I gave up hope that anything substantial will change in regard to gun legislation. We are the only modern country in the world who regularly has mass shootings, yet our leaders fail to adequately respond, which makes MSU just one of hundreds of mass shootings each year. The response cycle is the same, which speaks to how numb everyone has become to these events.

I have had the unfortunate experience to respond to numerous mass casualty events (including school shootings), and the trauma is far reaching within communities. There was even an attack at one of my former Unis, and that experience just reinforced how numb we have become to these attacks.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately true. Leaving the 3rd rail of gun ownership alone, there has not been any meaningful mental health legislation as a consequence either. One would hope that at least mental health portion of both the causes and fallout of mass shootings could be better addressed, but not even that much has really been accomplished. Just acceptance that this will continue to happen...sigh.
 
Sanman said:
Unfortunately true. Leaving the 3rd rail of gun ownership alone, there has not been any meaningful mental health legislation as a consequence either. One would hope that at least mental health portion of both the causes and fallout of mass shootings could be better addressed, but not even that much has really been accomplished. Just acceptance that this will continue to happen...sigh.
Click to expand...

Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of school children," or something to that effect?
 
WisNeuro said:
Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of school children," or something to that effect?
Click to expand...

I believe you mean patriots and tyrants. If you're being facetious, it didn't translate well.
 
R. Matey said:
I believe you mean patriots and tyrants. If you're being facetious, it didn't translate well.
Click to expand...

I thought the facetiousness was pretty apparent. Have to adapt to the times.
 
WisNeuro said:
I thought the facetiousness was pretty apparent. Have to adapt to the times.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was to others.

Anyways, I'm not sure what to say here. I've drafted like three responses to this thread and not posted them. The indifference some have to gun violence is despicable and my heart goes out to those families. I have very distant connections to MSU, but I still want something done. I heard this morning that the democratically controlled legislature is planning on passing reforms, but the majority is razor thin so they might have to compromise. I worry it won't be enough.
 
R. Matey said:
Maybe it was to others.

Anyways, I'm not sure what to say here. I've drafted like three responses to this thread and not posted them. The indifference some have to gun violence is despicable and my heart goes out to those families. I have very distant connections to MSU, but I still want something done. I heard this morning that the democratically controlled legislature is planning on passing reforms, but the majority is razor thin so they might have to compromise. I worry it won't be enough.
Click to expand...

Some people deal with tragedy with absurdity and humor. I had classes in Berkey Hall, and spent a lot of time in the Union over the years that I was there, so it's pretty easy to visualize the chaos.
 
WisNeuro said:
Some people deal with tragedy with absurdity and humor. I had classes in Berkey Hall, and spent a lot of time in the Union over the years that I was there, so it's pretty easy to visualize the chaos.
Click to expand...

I'm not coming across clearly--not trying to put reigns on how anyone here or elsewhere respond to tragedy. You're free to process it in anyway you desire. I meant that I didn't read it that way at first.
 
I wish we would stop inadvertently reinforcing these things.

If the goal is to reduce mass acts of violence, keeping calm and carrying on is the very best thing you can do.

Shutting down for the semester would be exactly what the perpetrator wanted. I was in a school when a mass shooting happened in our community. They cancelled class for a couple of days. Then we carried on.

First, we need to advocate for responsible reporting. If the goal is to reduce further shootings, message reporters who give name of perpetrator or title the article with body count and explain how they are reinforcing and perhaps motivating future acts.

Second, don't make this about mental health. It's not. It's a spoiled, entitled, brat having a temper tantrum because they did not get what they want. Don't sympathize or empathize with these little ****s. They should be forsaken and certainly not "idolized" through infamy. Entitled spoiled selfish little dinguses - all of them - without exception. Shame this behavior.

Third, advocate for common sense gun control. But only do this after you learn about guns, understand what AR stands for, and if federal definitions of assault rifles make any sense. Don't say inflammatory stuff. Ask for incremental changes. No sweeping policies will get through. Personally, I'd ask for a reduction of capacity first of pistols/rifles and a waiting period. Steelman the other side.

Fourth, life is dangerous. But schools continue to be extremely safe.
 
Last edited:
borne_before said:
I wish we would stop inadvertently reinforcing these things.

If the goal is to reduce mass acts of violence, keeping calm and carrying on is the very best thing you can do.

Shutting down for the semester would be exactly what the perpetrator wanted. I was in a school in a mass shooting happened in our community. They cancelled class for a couple of days. Then we carried on.

First, we need to advocate for responsible reporting. If the goal is to reduce further shootings, message reporters who give name of perpetrator or title the article with body count and explain how they are reinforcing and perhaps motivating future acts.

Second, don't make this about mental health. It's not. It's a spoiled, entitled, brat having a temper tantrum because they did not get what they want. Don't sympathize or empathize with these little ****s. They should be forsaken and certainly not "idolized" through infamy. Entitled spoiled selfish little dinguses - all of them - without exception. Shame this behavior.

Third, advocate for common sense gun control. But only do this after you learn about guns, understand what AR stands for, and if federal definitions of assault rifles make any sense. Don't say inflammatory stuff. Ask for incremental changes. No sweeping policies will get through. Personally, I'd ask for a reduction of capacity first of pistols/rifles and a waiting period. Steelman the other side.

Fourth, life is dangerous. But schools continue to be extremely safe.
Click to expand...
Actually, this shooter was a 40-something man with no ties to the university. Not a student.
 
borne_before said:
I wish we would stop inadvertently reinforcing these things.

If the goal is to reduce mass acts of violence, keeping calm and carrying on is the very best thing you can do.

Shutting down for the semester would be exactly what the perpetrator wanted. I was in a school in a mass shooting happened in our community. They cancelled class for a couple of days. Then we carried on.

First, we need to advocate for responsible reporting. If the goal is to reduce further shootings, message reporters who give name of perpetrator or title the article with body count and explain how they are reinforcing and perhaps motivating future acts.

Second, don't make this about mental health. It's not. It's a spoiled, entitled, brat having a temper tantrum because they did not get what they want. Don't sympathize or empathize with these little ****s. They should be forsaken and certainly not "idolized" through infamy. Entitled spoiled selfish little dinguses - all of them - without exception. Shame this behavior.

Third, advocate for common sense gun control. But only do this after you learn about guns, understand what AR stands for, and if federal definitions of assault rifles make any sense. Don't say inflammatory stuff. Ask for incremental changes. No sweeping policies will get through. Personally, I'd ask for a reduction of capacity first of pistols/rifles and a waiting period. Steelman the other side.

Fourth, life is dangerous. But schools continue to be extremely safe.
Click to expand...

I mean, how are we defining safe? Something like 20-30% of undergraduate women and something like 5-7ish% of men are sexually assaulted during their college years.
 
Third, advocate for common sense gun control. But only do this after you learn about guns, understand what AR stands for, and if federal definitions of assault rifles make any sense. Don't say inflammatory stuff. Ask for incremental changes. No sweeping policies will get through. Personally, I'd ask for a reduction of capacity first of pistols/rifles and a waiting period. Steelman the other side.
Click to expand...

I think there is an inaccurate assumption that people who want to increase gun safety and gun control are somehow uneducated about guns. I was a lifetime NRA member, CCW, and likely can shoot circles around the average “mah guns!” pro-gun stereotype. I was a staunch 2A advocate & Constitutionalist, until Sandy Hook.

The average NRA member supports universal background checks, MH flags, and related common sense gun safety legislation. There have already been numerous attempts at incremental improvement, but ANY attempt to improve gun safety is met with rabid hardline zealots that don’t represent the average gun owner. Until legislators stop being beholden to gun lobbyists and NRA leadership, and instead votes in line with what their constituents actually want, meaningful change isn’t happening.

Personally, I’d aim high (no pun intended) and triple down on executive orders. Make a bunch of executive orders and force the anti-gun safety ppl to fight each and every one through the entire court system. Just bury them in executive orders, which can do some good while things get sorted in the courts. The horse left the barn on Heller, which has only been twisted and further distorted, but there are other avenues to take….like executive orders.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, another gun owner here. I'd wager that I have more range time and force on force training than 90% of gun owners here and am still a very strong proponent of stricter gun laws. Not too mention that I hold more of a late Justice John Paul Stevens view of the 2nd Amendment.
 
borne_before said:
www.studentresearchfoundation.org

How Dangerous Are America’s College Campuses? Student Research Fdn

Should you worry about your safety on college campuses? While on campus it might feel like a safe place but research shows you have reasons to be concerned for your safety and to take regular precautions similar to the ones you would take off-campus.
www.studentresearchfoundation.org www.studentresearchfoundation.org
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say as this page just has a bunch of broken links.

borne_before said:
C'mon dude - it's this kind of **** thats so damn annoying. It's off topic and obnoxious. I'm gonna hit the ignore button for a while.

ERIC - EJ1141522 - Needed: A Fresh Perspective on Campus Violence, Thought & Action, 2017

That campuses suffer unacceptable levels of violence is undisputable; they are part of a larger American society in which family, community, and institutional violence far exceed levels found in comparable Western nations. And yet, amid the finger-pointing and scapegoating of students as...
eric.ed.gov eric.ed.gov
Click to expand...

"although certain campus populations do suffer high rates of violence"

Go for it, son. That's your right.
 
As always, 538 with some good work.

fivethirtyeight.com

Why Most Gun Laws Aren’t Backed Up By Evidence

In the first month of 2023, 25 people lost their lives in four mass shootings in California over just eight days. It’s a grim statistic, made all the more distr…
fivethirtyeight.com fivethirtyeight.com
 
I always think it's interesting that gun control discussions never talk about suicide. I attended a means safety seminar yesterday and the research is pretty clear on that one. Especially people who supposedly care so much about the veteran suicide rate...

Anyway, isn't one of the difficulties with evaluating gun control laws the fact that every state is different? For instance, Illinois has strict gun control, but people in Illinois can get whatever they want by going to Iowa or Wisconsin.
 
cara susanna said:
I always think it's interesting that gun control discussions never talk about suicide. I attended a means safety seminar yesterday and the research is pretty clear on that one. Especially people who supposedly care so much about the veteran suicide rate...

Anyway, isn't one of the difficulties with evaluating gun control laws the fact that every state is different? For instance, Illinois has strict gun control, but people in Illinois can get whatever they want by going to Iowa or Wisconsin.
Click to expand...

That is one big reason. Also, inconsistent reporting, and some officials who refuse to share or report data due to political reasons. It's pretty obvious that some people do not want to see what the research would say about the laws in some jurisdictions.
 
cara susanna said:
I always think it's interesting that gun control discussions never talk about suicide. I attended a means safety seminar yesterday and the research is pretty clear on that one. Especially people who supposedly care so much about the veteran suicide rate...

Anyway, isn't one of the difficulties with evaluating gun control laws the fact that every state is different? For instance, Illinois has strict gun control, but people in Illinois can get whatever they want by going to Iowa or Wisconsin.
Click to expand...
I find it interesting that how we define or operationalize "mass shooting" is hardly considered either.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Once it was clear that slaughtering kindergartners (Sandy Hook) was acceptable to those in power, I gave up hope that anything substantial will change in regard to gun legislation. We are the only modern country in the world who regularly has mass shootings, yet our leaders fail to adequately respond, which makes MSU just one of hundreds of mass shootings each year. The response cycle is the same, which speaks to how numb everyone has become to these events.

I have had the unfortunate experience to respond to numerous mass casualty events (including school shootings), and the trauma is far reaching within communities. There was even an attack at one of my former Unis, and that experience just reinforced how numb we have become to these attacks.
Click to expand...
Now a mass casualty event in Louisville. Four dead, at least 8 wounded by a disgruntled ex-employee at a bank.
 
I know this may be a shock to some folks, but the shooter used an AR-15 style rifle....like 90%+ of the other mass shootings. Soon "Good Guys With A Gun" and other debunked tropes will be tossed around with this Thoughts & Prayers, and the Merry-Go-Round of Death will continue.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I know this may be a shock to some folks, but the shooter used an AR-15 style rifle....like 90%+ of the other mass shootings. Soon "Good Guys With A Gun" and other debunked tropes will be tossed around with this Thoughts & Prayers, and the Merry-Go-Round of Death will continue.
Click to expand...
Are guns allowed in banks for good guys to use them?
 
WisNeuro said:
Yes, they are. And this is a permitless carry state, so it's pretty easy for any "guy with a gun" be it good, bad, or ugly, to carry one in most places.
Click to expand...
I'm in one of those States and there are signs in libraries etc saying not to carry there.

The good guys with the guns if the bank allowed them must have been at work
 
Heist said:
I'm in one of those States and there are signs in libraries etc saying not to carry there.

The good guys with the guns if the bank allowed them must have been at work
Click to expand...

Yes, in government/municipal buildings, firearms are still prohibited in most of these states. Banks are not included in this prohibition. Also, there's a recent story of a guy who was held up at an ATM in TX, as the armed robber was fleeing, guy who got robbed took some shots at him, didn't hit him at all, but killed a little girl. So, is he the good guy with the gun, or should a good guy with a gun stopped the ***** who had been robbed? And, if they guy hits an innocent bystander, is he no longer a good guy with a gun? Or, is it just "good guys with guns" all the way down?
 
Heist said:
Are guns allowed in banks for good guys to use them?
Click to expand...
According to the federal government, yes. This is an older article, but it is still largely true. It is up to the bank if they want to allow people to conceal carry or open carry. Remember Bowling For Columbine? Michael Moore received a free gun from the bank for opening a checking account. Given how laissez faire certain states have become recently with not even requiring a permit, I'd guess that yes...the "good guy with a gun" likely could carry in a bank. Is it smart, heck no. Do more people die on average when more guns are present in a location...also yes. Do some people ignore the stats and want to play John Wayne, also yes.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I know this may be a shock to some folks, but the shooter used an AR-15 style rifle....like 90%+ of the other mass shootings. Soon "Good Guys With A Gun" and other debunked tropes will be tossed around with this Thoughts & Prayers, and the Merry-Go-Round of Death will continue.
Click to expand...
"Thoughts and Prayers" by the Free Dumbs fighters!

When a known mentally aberrant fella was armed by parents in 2013 and decided to kill 20 first-graders at a school, I lost all hope. Long ago. The same scenario has probably happened multiple times since then too. I didn't even look it up.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I know this may be a shock to some folks, but the shooter used an AR-15 style rifle....like 90%+ of the other mass shootings. Soon "Good Guys With A Gun" and other debunked tropes will be tossed around with this Thoughts & Prayers, and the Merry-Go-Round of Death will continue.
Click to expand...

AR-15 and similar weapons are not used in "like 90%" of mass shootings. The vast majority of textbook definition mass shooting(debated definition as well) are from handguns and occur in cities with strict firearm laws. Only 45,000 people died from gun violence in 2020, hardly an epidemic. We need to look at the people trying to disarm the population. These were largely the same people rioting and burning down buildings en masse in 2020, much of this Anti-American Anti-Constitutional rhetoric has to do with the desire to oppress others.
 
ChudsMgee said:
AR-15 and similar weapons are not used in "like 90%" of mass shootings. The vast majority of textbook definition mass shooting(debated definition as well) are from handguns and occur in cities with strict firearm laws. Only 45,000 people died from gun violence in 2020, hardly an epidemic. We need to look at the people trying to disarm the population. These were largely the same people rioting and burning down buildings en masse in 2020, much of this Anti-American Anti-Constitutional rhetoric has to do with the desire to oppress others.
Click to expand...
You already said the quiet part out loud "debated definition". What people view as a mass shooting (primarily in schools) the vast vast majority are done with an AR-15. If you want to narrow it to "just school shootings" so the definition isn't an issue, then it is 90%+. Yes there are guns in cities. Yes those cities can include Chicago, but most of those guns come from OUTSIDE of the city/state, so the laws of the surrounding states are greatly and negatively impacting big cities like Chicago. As for "only 45,000" people...compare that to other modern countries and you see how CRAZY that sounds. Also look at the mortality rates for kids involving guns, especially suicide. As for the rioters/"Anti-American"/etc, I'll skip that part bc we aren't in the Political Forum here.
 
ChudsMgee said:
AR-15 and similar weapons are not used in "like 90%" of mass shootings. The vast majority of textbook definition mass shooting(debated definition as well) are from handguns and occur in cities with strict firearm laws. Only 45,000 people died from gun violence in 2020, hardly an epidemic. We need to look at the people trying to disarm the population. These were largely the same people rioting and burning down buildings en masse in 2020, much of this Anti-American Anti-Constitutional rhetoric has to do with the desire to oppress others.
Click to expand...

a thoughts and prayers guy, fo sho!
 
Edit: Touche, WisNeuro.
 
Last edited:
ChudsMgee said:
AR-15 and similar weapons are not used in "like 90%" of mass shootings. The vast majority of textbook definition mass shooting(debated definition as well) are from handguns and occur in cities with strict firearm laws. Only 45,000 people died from gun violence in 2020, hardly an epidemic. We need to look at the people trying to disarm the population. These were largely the same people rioting and burning down buildings en masse in 2020, much of this Anti-American Anti-Constitutional rhetoric has to do with the desire to oppress others.
Click to expand...
Careful, facts and data on this subject is taboo. Even within the scientific community. No one wants to acknowledge what the operational definition of "mass shooting" is. This is a narrative that is being spun in front of our eyes without data to back it up. Its like Vermont has a massive amount of guns and incredibly low gun crime and Chicago has incredibly strict gun laws but ridiculously high gun crime.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
You already said the quiet part out loud "debated definition". What people view as a mass shooting (primarily in schools) the vast vast majority are done with an AR-15. If you want to narrow it to "just school shootings" so the definition isn't an issue, then it is 90%+. Yes there are guns in cities. Yes those cities can include Chicago, but most of those guns come from OUTSIDE of the city/state, so the laws of the surrounding states are greatly and negatively impacting big cities like Chicago. As for "only 45,000" people...compare that to other modern countries and you see how CRAZY that sounds. Also look at the mortality rates for kids involving guns, especially suicide. As for the rioters/"Anti-American"/etc, I'll skip that part bc we aren't in the Political Forum here.
Click to expand...

Subtract all the handgun deaths then and tell me how many people actually die from AR-15 and similar weapons? Can it even compare to the amount of people killed via Planned Parenthood and similar services? What about the 46,000 people who die in motor vehicle accidents each year? Ban vehicles!!!! Firearms have always been available en masse in the United States however if you are focusing on school shootings why are they on the rise? This is a result of many things, Anti-American propaganda telling people they are somehow "oppressed" whether it be through alt left conspiracy theories like "wealth inequality" or "systemic racism", quackery and overmedication like the testosterone fueled female LGBT+ supremacist who just shot up the Nashville school in the hate crime against Christians,

Our constitutional right to bear arms is more important than ever with soft on crime DAs, defunding of police, rise of alt left extremism hate groups like ANTIFA/BLM, far left oppressive authoritarian governments like Michigan/California/NYC etc. If someone wants to go postal and kill a large amount of people they do not need one of these tools. You can kill hundreds with fertilizer, you can plow down people at a parade in an SUV like the the black supremacist Christmas parade massacre.
 
ChudsMgee said:
Subtract all the handgun deaths then and tell me how many people actually die from AR-15 and similar weapons? Can it even compare to the amount of people killed via Planned Parenthood and similar services? What about the 46,000 people who die in motor vehicle accidents each year? Ban vehicles!!!! Firearms have always been available en masse in the United States however if you are focusing on school shootings why are they on the rise? This is a result of many things, Anti-American propaganda telling people they are somehow "oppressed" whether it be through alt left conspiracy theories like "wealth inequality" or "systemic racism", quackery and overmedication like the testosterone fueled female LGBT+ supremacist who just shot up the Nashville school in the hate crime against Christians,

Our constitutional right to bear arms is more important than ever with soft on crime DAs, defunding of police, rise of alt left extremism hate groups like ANTIFA/BLM, far left oppressive authoritarian governments like Michigan/California/NYC etc. If someone wants to go postal and kill a large amount of people they do not need one of these tools. You can kill hundreds with fertilizer, you can plow down people at a parade in an SUV like the the black supremacist Christmas parade massacre.
Click to expand...

Dude, you aren't going to change our minds here. Especially given some of the arguments you're choosing to put forward.
 
cara susanna said:
Dude, you aren't going to change our minds here. Especially given some of the arguments you're choosing to put forward.
Click to expand...

and you aren't going to change the minds of people who still love this nation and value the foundations set by the framers through the constitution. Civil rights organizations like the NRA will never stop fighting the rising threat of authoritarianism.
 
Psychstudent!721 said:
Careful, facts and data on this subject is taboo. Even within the scientific community. No one wants to acknowledge what the operational definition of "mass shooting" is. This is a narrative that is being spun in front of our eyes without data to back it up. Its like Vermont has a massive amount of guns and incredibly low gun crime and Chicago has incredibly strict gun laws but ridiculously high gun crime.
Click to expand...

It's pretty interesting to see the effects of mass propaganda and mass group think. It causes people who usually cling to "evidence based" data to throw that philosophy completely out the window.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Pragma
Tragedy in CO
Replies
7
Views
2K
JeyRo
JeyRo
D
UofM, MSU, UNLV PhD
Replies
2
Views
2K
erg923
erg923
N
MSU Post-Interview
Replies
7
Views
2K
Cobblestone
Cobblestone
Top Bottom