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WALKE219

St. John Hospital in Detroit is the fourth on that list. I would vote by FAR for the St. John and even more so at the DMC. It would be great to lock down another huge metro hospital.. That article claims wayne state doesn't want MSU to move in at their DMC. The DMC people are saying they REALLY want to have MSUCOM in their building, which is great. I hope it doesn't go to Macomb Community, I think it would have a lot more prestige going to one of the two big Detroit Hopitals.. The DMC is HUGE, 5 hospitals in one campus and the school would be right in one of the hospitals. A Great way to get a lot of experience.

It also shows a lot to naysayers about Osteopathic medicine that an osteopathic school is competing with an allopathic school for the attention of a major hospital system like the DMC. The fact that they want MSUCOM so badly is great, and it has wayne shaking in their boots a bit!!
 
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WALKE219

Lansing is probably as close to northern Indiana as Detroit is.. Sure it is more northern, but about an hour and a half west of it as well...
 

afriend

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It also shows a lot to naysayers about Osteopathic medicine that an osteopathic school is competing with an allopathic school for the attention of a major hospital system like the DMC. The fact that they want MSUCOM so badly is great, and it has wayne shaking in their boots a bit!!

(Please forgive the fact that I posted this exact same reply on a different thread to address the same.)

First, here is the link to the most recent article about this:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2007702130370

Second, WALKE219, Maybe I'm misunderstanding... You don't want WSU to be "shaking in their boots", do you? MSU-COM expansion into southeast Michigan is to hopefully increase physicians there to support the underserved. This is a need that WSU has continually addressed for years by increasing their class sizes to the point that they are the largest single campus medical school in the country. And, like MSU, they have very impressive statistics for retaining physicians in Michigan.

By WSU saying that they don't feel the DMC and MSU would be the right fit, it's not because it's a DO/MD thing, or that there are "naysayers". It's just that the inn is full with already existing medical students. And with all the politics and fallout of the WSU/DMC contract disputes, it would be unfortunate if there was already a feeling of competition by either MSU or WSU.

Don't get me wrong... I personally think that MSU-COM coming to southeast Michigan is fantastic. If caring for the Detroit underserved is the goal, I think the St. John's site would be wonderful clinical exposure in an untapped site for med school clinical training. And honestly, I've heard nothing but good things about both the OU and MCC sites.

I'm glad that you all are coming here. But I do hope that something outside of the DMC will be found to provide you all the education and clinical opportunities you deserve while allowing WSU to continue its already existing service mission.

Then again, maybe me posting this does show how some are, in fact, shaking in our boots... so mission accomplished. ;)
 
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WALKE219

Hey, I just want to clarify a bit - I wasn't calling the Wayne people the naysayers about DO at all.. What I was trying to convey was that there are many people out there who believe DO is somehow inferior to MD training. This is mostly due to opinions by naive people on the subject. These people would be the "naysayers" I spoke of. I think it is wonderful that a large, extremely highly thought of institution like the DMC is trying to associate with an osteopathic college. This shows a confidence in the osteopathic training by medical professionals at various levels. The vast majority of people who are "in the know" understand there is very little practical difference in training, and none in quality. An announcement like this helps the layperson, who isn't savvy on the subject understand more, and give more public exposure to osteopathic medicine..

I didn't mean to say at all that people at Wayne State were uninformed or anything at all.. I hope I cleared this up somehow - sorry to insult, if I did, I really didn't mean it at all like that. I really hope I cleared this up because I don't want that to be construed as my opinion at all.

I was just joking around with the ''shaking in their boots'' comment. I actually think the DMC and Detroit would really be at a loss without Wayne State doing clinical there. It would actually be a huge disaster. I was actually accepted at Wayne, so I did do some reading into the subject, and my own personal opinion is that Wayne State is getting the short end of the stick on all of this. It seems to me that DMC should be trying to do anything they can to keep Wayne State at their site. Losing you guys shouldn't be an option. Even if they were to reach an agreement with MSU, it would never come close to "replacing" Wayne if that contract was lost. I just think for the harmony of the MD/DO relationship it would be really powerful to have the two schools share the DMC site.

You were right about the MCC site, they offer an extremely large new, expensive fancy facility out there too, I just believe there is a lot more need in Detroit than in Oakland and Macomb county.

MSUCOM does a State wide clinical system with 28 hospitals (and growing).... So for the clinical years we branch out all over the place...
St. John Riverview is already a clinical site for MSUCOM so it wouldn't really be an untapped site, considering a bunch of students already do clinical there. Although it does get us in Detroit for the science class years.
I think the biggest issue is where to have the science years housed...
 

afriend

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No worries... I'm sorry if I overreacted. Thanks for the level-headed response. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. It appears we are. If there were a "hugs" emoticon, I would use it to wrap arms around WSU/MSU/DO/MD.

As you point out, the WSU/DMC politics are very complex, and make this a sticky situation. It's difficult to rectify the DMC statement (from the Free Press) that their want for the MSUCOM site stems from the primary care need of the city, immediately after forcing the relocation of WSU's family practice residency that contained 24 residents and numerous staff who were already dedicated to primary care in the city. Also, DMC suggests that this move would help to fill in the Detroit gaps in clinical care. Of course, to do this would actually require physicians which seems to imply that that they have plans beyond medical students in their science years. The results of contract negotiations to date have many questioning the DMC's committment to WSU. DMC actively pursuing another medical school while negotiations with WSU are still ongoing only worsens this.

My apologies for St. John's... I didn't realize you guys were already there. What have you heard about it for clinical training?

Regardless, best of luck to all of you wherever you end up. I hope we all have the chance to work collaboratively sometime in the future.
 

r2cole1

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So apparently Oakland U dropped out of the bidding war for the new MSUCOM campus and is building a new allopathic med school in Detroit. Has anyone heard anything about how this will affect MSUCOM's plans? This is quite shocking imo.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11860332AF110E98&p_docnum=2&p_theme=gannett&s_site=freep&p_product=FP
OAKLAND UNIVERSITY TO BUILD A MED SCHOOL
BEAUMONT TO LEND HOSPITAL EXPERTISE
PATRICIA ANSTETT
FREE PRESS MEDICAL WRITER

In an announcement with positive economic reverberations for Michigan and the region, Oakland University and Beaumont Hospitals said Thursday they will create a privately funded medical school on the OU campus in Auburn Hills, starting in 2010.
The school is to begin with at least 50 students and grow to 200 by 2014.

"This sends a signal to the rest of the nation that Michigan is not asleep," U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., said.

OU President Gary Russi estimated the new school might generate $1.1 billion in business in its first year alone, then eventually create 11,000 jobs and add $22 million to the local tax base. The figures come from an economic analysis of a medical school opening in Florida next year, he said.

Hiring for the school's deans and associate deans will be done soon, as will fund-raising, officials said. Russi declined to say how much money must be raised.

The school "will not rely on state funding whatsoever," as many of the state's medical schools do, Russi said.

Wayne State University, for example, gives its medical school $50 million to $52 million a year from money it gets from the State of Michigan for education and training for 1,200 four-year students.

Kenneth Matzick, president and chief executive officer of Beaumont Hospitals, said Beaumont's three reasons for wanting a medical school are:

*It will improve its national stature.

*It wants to address physician shortages in the state and nation.

*It "hopes to lead southeast Michigan in its transition to a knowledge-based economy."

Addressing physician shortage

Michigan will be short 4,400 doctors, including specialists, by 2020, according to a recent study by Altarrum of Ann Arbor and the Center for Workforce Studies in Albany, N.Y.

Thursday's announcement stunned the local medical community and had far-reaching implications for the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine and WSU.

OU was possibly the top contender to become the first metro Detroit campus for MSU's proposed satellite osteopathic school, followed by the Detroit Medical Center and Macomb Community College.

OU has withdrawn its application to partner with MSU, Russi said, surprising the osteopathic school's leaders. "We thought it was better to bring a full medical school to OU than a branch of a medical school," Russi explained.

The announcement is likely to have an impact on the WSU Medical School, which this year expanded its four-year school but is reducing its graduate doctor training programs after more than a year of differences with its longtime clinical partner, Detroit Medical Center.

"We are all in favor of addressing the physician workforce shortages in Michigan," said Robert Frank, WSU associate dean. He said WSU's only concern about the OU and MSU proposals is that "medical schools need to get together to decide where the schools best be located and what's the right number of students at the schools. We'd like to see some coordination so there aren't redundancies."

Offering new approaches

The OU/Beaumont medical school will train medical school students in their first four years of training en route to an MD degree. It will offer new approaches to medical education, including more emphasis on nutrition, wellness and integrative approaches to medicine, said Ananias Diokno, Beaumont's executive vice president and chief medical officer.

Most likely, a new building for the school would be constructed at a yet-undesignated campus site. OU has 1,800 acres, and buildings occupy less than half the campus, Russi said.
 

afriend

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So apparently Oakland U dropped out of the bidding war for the new MSUCOM campus and is building a new allopathic med school in Detroit. Has anyone heard anything about how this will affect MSUCOM's plans? This is quite shocking imo.

For all practical purposes, it's down to Macomb and DMC now. MSU will be touring the sites within the next few weeks, with a decision possible after the May MSU board of trustee meeting.
 

subtle1epiphany

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I'm not so sure it's gonna be only Macomb and DMC, St Johns is in the running from what I've heard. They've got a strong play with their offer of the Riverview Hospital. This is some rumor and suspicion, but we'll see.
Don't forget that there's interest from Canada in starting up an Osteopathic med school, so that might be interesting too...
 

Toohotinvegas33

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http://www.med.wayne.edu/pdfs/DMC_proposal_to_MSU_DO_school.pdf

http://www.med.wayne.edu/pdfs/DMC_proposal_for_MSU_branding.pdf


Sounds like DMC willing to move students in and collect rent but not commit to switching residencies to exclusive osteopathic. Great for people who want to do IM and peds, not so much for ones who want more competitive programs.

I'm not sure I read that, from what I read the DMC will charge MSUCOM (Not the students) for space, but 64 residency spots that are solely WSU will be moved and 64 new, probably DO spots will be created, One program mention was a new DO ENT program. Plus they already had a list other DO specialist they would probably use to start others.
 
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KCHornet

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It sounds like they have spots (peds, SGH EM, SGH IM) that were - but no longer - shared with WSU (allopathic) that they would apply to make shared ACGME/AOA. Peds is one of their stronger departments and I assume would be coveted by osteopathic students new to the DMC. The DMC could likely fill a lot of those spots with allopaths. I assume it will be several years with an MD program director. To me, that bodes poorly for the DO students now competing for some of the more competitive spots.

Sure, they can get all the SGH IM spots they want, but some more worthwhile spots could be MD/DO competitive with MD program directors (most of whom have retained their WSU appointments).

Further, they are going to considerable lengths to meet the ACGME's criticisms of their allopathic orthopaedic program application. They are looking into buying a research crew and building a lab. Though the advertised reason for this move is to bring potential primary care physicians, it would be a HUGE feather in MSU COM's hat if they could offer a conduit for potential students into residencies like ortho, quality peds hospital, surgery, EM into a large community hospital system in an urban setting as opposed to some of the smaller community hospital systems in the area offering osteopathic GME programs.

No, I did not meant to imply that the students would be paying rent on educational space but instead MSU COM - don't know if this would affect tuition.
 

afriend

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I'm not so sure it's gonna be only Macomb and DMC, St Johns is in the running from what I've heard. They've got a strong play with their offer of the Riverview Hospital. This is some rumor and suspicion, but we'll see.

Thanks Subtle... I stand corrected.

Crain's Detroit Business will be reporting tomorrow that, in fact, there are 3 proposals being considered, including St. John's Riverview. The e-article, comparing the 3 proposals is already posted on their website, but may require a subscription.
 

subtle1epiphany

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Thanks Subtle... I stand corrected.

Crain's Detroit Business will be reporting tomorrow that, in fact, there are 3 proposals being considered, including St. John's Riverview. The e-article, comparing the 3 proposals is already posted on their website, but may require a subscription.
Good call:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/p...20070415/SUB/704130321&SearchID=7327825619091
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070415/SUB/704130320
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070413/SCHOOLS/704130319/1040/LIFESTYLE03
http://www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=40469
The last one is dated, but made the same points that our Dean did about Oakland U.
Not sure how much new info it brings to the situation, but it might help.
 

KCHornet

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Looks like there is one less hat in the ring:

Karmanos wants to move cancer operations to Riverview Hospital

Detroit Medical Center plans legal fight over transfer

April 23, 2007
BY PATRICIA ANSTETT
FREE PRESS MEDICAL WRITER
The Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute and the St. John Health System, which owns Detroit Riverview Hospital, will announce Tuesday morning that Karmanos has signed a letter of intent to buy Riverview, according to information obtained by the Free Press.
Karmanos would abandon plans to build a 123-bed, $57 million hospital by next year on the Detroit Medical Center campus, where it is headquartered, and move all of its clinical operations to Riverview.
The move threatens to disrupt emergency care and obstetrics on Detroit’s east side.
Given the stakes, the announcement has ignited bitter hospital politics, including a vow by Karmanos’ current partner, the Detroit Medical Center, to fight the move in court.

Some $20 million in improvements are planned for the Riverview campus, where Karmanos hopes to open in 2008. Many hurdles face the project, including state approval to move costly radiation and imaging machines essential for cancer treatment.

Dr. Jack Ruckdeschel, president and chief executive officer of Karmanos, called the plan “wonderful for the city of Detroit. If you look at this, St. John has been struggling for years with investments in Riverview that have not borne fruit. One option was just to close it. What could have been a real problem has been averted. Our intent to invest and expand there is significant.”

Ruckdeschel envisions the cancer hospital serving both the region, as it now does, and a growing aging population in Detroit’s Indian Village and Riverfront communities. He hopes to continue to provide cancer care to DMC patients and said he’d keep research staffers on the DMC campus, at least for a while.

But others see the closing of a 230-bed hospital, with an emergency department that served 30,000 last year, and where 1,500 babies were born, mostly to single women with Medicaid insurance, as cause for grave concern.

Mike Duggan, chief executive officer of the Detroit Medical Center, said DMC attorneys will take quick legal action to oppose the sale. The DMC has a 100-year history of providing cancer care with Karmanos and its predecessor agencies.

“The closure of Riverview is a moral outrage,” Duggan said. “It’s a total abuse of their tax-exempt status and needs to be investigated,” he said Monday.

St. John system has closed two of its other Detroit hospitals, Saratoga and Holy Cross, since 2003, Duggan said. “The taxpayers in this state are subsidizing this behavior.”

Eliot Joseph, chief executive officer of the St. John system and a former DMC administrator, said he doubted whether the DMC could succeed with any legal challenge.

“We have an enormous commitment to the poor and the vulnerable,” Joseph said. “He can be outraged all he wants. It’s just theatrics.” Joseph said DMC should gain $10 million in business, and the Henry Ford Health System somewhat less if Riverview closes.

Both health systems, as well as St. John’s flagship hospital on Detroit’s far east side, on the Grosse Pointe Woods border, have “extra capacity” to serve more patients, he said.


Detroiter

DMC drama goes hand in hand with the drama of the city! If they were smart... they would MOVE OUT to the suburbs!
icon_smile.gif


Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:19 pm
MADEINAMERICA

It is so very sad that no one with any influence sees, or cares, that former prosecutor Mike Duggan continues to drive the good doctors out of the DMC. Me and my veteran friends thought he might be good for the hospitals but after 3 years, all there seems to be is bad blood. It us such a shame.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:41 pm
James K

Michael Duggan and the DMC are the actual crooks in this case.

The DMC has historically tried to strongarm all the hospitals on or near the Detroit Medical campus into becoming "partners." And more then one were taken over by the DMC with tatics that the business world would consider to be a "hostil takeover."

The karmanos Cancer Institute is Independent. DMC likes everyone to think that Karmanos is owned by them. They throw out the word "partner" like they have some kind of controlling vested interest in Karmanos, which they do not. Michael Duggan is still pissed that he has not been able to takeover Karmanos.

I cannot Blame Karmanos. They have put up with the DMC's Sh$# for years. If I was on the Board at Karmanos, I would have decided to move too. Get away from the DMC's "Hospital Politics" and drama.

Truth is that the DMC is nowhere the Giant, Stable, Hospital Enitity they like everyone to believe they are...

And Michael Duggan's Statements are just Plain Ludicrous. St. John can no longer afford to keep Riverview Open. CURRENTLY Taxpayer dollars are subsidizing the hospital, while many other hospitals in the area have open Beds.

If Karmanos moves to Riverview there will be a huge Cash infusion for St. John, which can be used to improve thier other hospitals. ALSO, Riverview will no Longer be a tax burden on anyone.

(sigh)

Mr. Duggan statements are contradictory. He claims that closing Riverview would be bad for the East Side of Detroit because he wants karmanos on or near the DMC Campus. He makes it appear that the residents of the east side will have no where to go if Riverview closes, and they it is going to be St. John's and Karmanos'.

HOWEVER, on the opposite end, he also does everything in his power to embelish the image of the DMC, trying to get patients to drive to DMC Hospitals from all over michigan and Beyond. (what a contradiction).

TRUTH IS, Michael Duggan is not a Doctor. He is not an advocate for Medical Patients. He is a POLITICIAN and a shrewd business person. And a bold, hard nosed one at that.

Michael Duggan is the Former Wayne County Prosecutor. Now he is the President and CEO of the Detroit Medical Center? Can anyone explain any logic to this, except to defer it to politics?

Bottom line is, Karmanos does great work for Cancer research. The DMC has tried time and time again to take contol of this, which would ultimately detroy the integrity of karmanos. They want to Move. Michael Duggan and the DMC are not getting their way, and are willing to Lie and politicize thier way to get what they want... Even if it continous destroying Karmanos.


(Do not ever take anything Michael Duggan Says for the Truth... Ever)

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:37 pm
 

medgirl11

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OK, I don't post often, but I do feel as though it is time for me to add my point-of-view. I am a third year medical student at Wayne State Univ. and I have completed all my core rotations at the downtown hospitals with Family Medicine left to go. Besides all the glitz and glamor of urban training that you think it will offer your MSU education (D.O. and M.D. affiliations put aside), do you not think that we and our high tuition dollars are being used as pawns here? I hope that through the hype that it is clear that this new DMC-MSU partnership is just used as a manipulating tool for DMC to "strong arm" Wayne State. It is not for the benefit for educating future doctors. Point being, in talking to residency directors, you CANNOT take an M.D. residency program and just flip it to a D.O. one. That is just frills in the proposition to make you feel energized, but it's not going to ever realistically happen (confirmed by someone in one of the mentioned departments).

Second point, Wayne State has always been one of the biggest medical school in the country. From my personal experience, a lot of rotations are already packed with students. Yeah, you can always add one more across the board to accommodate a total of 50 MSU students, but who is suffering? ALL OF US! Not to mention that there are already P.A. students amongst the pack.

Sure MSU students can get badges that say 'STUDENT' and no one will ever know your affiliation, but does that bode well for school pride? I think that we need to take off our rose-colored glasses and see this is an issue that we ALL as FUTURE DOCS (not as M.D.s or D.O.s separately) should band together for the sake of ALL OF OUR EDUCATIONS!

And if you do your homework and have an opinion one way or the other, please feel free to contact those that control our future.

MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY BOARD OF TRUSTEES

Trustee Joel I. Ferguson, Chairman
1223 Turner, Suite 300
Lansing MI 48906
(517) 371-2515 - Office
[email protected]

Trustee Melanie Foster, Vice Chairperson
2561 Meadow Woods Drive
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 204-8052
[email protected]

Trustee Dorothy V. Gonzales
P.O. Box 242
East Lansing MI 48823-0242
(313) 224-0810
[email protected]

Trustee Colleen M. McNamara
Michigan Cable Telecommunications Association
412 W. Ionia
Lansing MI 48933
(517) 482-2622 - Office
[email protected]

Trustee Donald W. Nugent
1225 Forrester Road
Frankfort MI 49635
(231) 352-7181 - Office
[email protected]

Trustee Faylene Owen
6180 Heathfield
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 339-1400
[email protected]

Trustee George Perles
6153 W. Longview Drive
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 525-3794
[email protected]

Trustee G. Scott Romney
Honigman Miller Schwartz & Cohn LLP
2290 First National Building
660 Woodward Avenue
Detroit MI 48226
(313) 465-7522 - Office
[email protected]
 

BWalkerMSU

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I fail to see the point you are trying to raise here....

I do agree that having medical students packed into a clinical site isn't good. Michigan State offers 28 other hospitals for medical students to do rotations at. We at the East Lansing campus choose where we do ours, as would the 50 students at the proposed new campus. So, there really wouldn't even be 50 every year in the mix. I think better off than convincing MSU trustees to not put a campus at the DMC, it might be a better idea for Wayne State students to contact their own trustees to have your school expand in a similar way MSU is trying to. Perhaps to the other area hospitals like Henry Ford? This would probably increase the quality of your educations more than keeping MSU out would.

That being said, I disagree with your point about residencies... There was never a discussion about "flipping MD residencies to DO residencies". I think the proposal is to get them dually accredited, or to start new ones with the DO chiefs. Which I believe is a great idea whether MSU moves in or not. Of course this would create more competition if they were dually accredited, but that's not really that big of a deal if you're qualified.


The DMC's possible "strong arm" intentions aside, The MSU trustees and faculty of the college of osteopathic medicine are intelligent individuals. Obviously there intention is not to push out Wayne State, or to have a confrontation in any way. I think there is an obvious physician shortage, and the creation of new programs in Detroit, along with training more physicians is a good idea. I know that the DMC and Wayne are constantly going at it, but I wouldn't say MSU is the bad guy in all of this.


I don't claim to be an expert or anything on any of this, but I think Wayne students would be better served to suggest that Wayne State expand its clinical rotations outward.
 

ddmo

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I don't claim to be an expert or anything on any of this, but I think Wayne students would be better served to suggest that Wayne State expand its clinical rotations outward.

Wayne already has affiliations and sends many students to every major hospital in Southeast Michigan with the exception of the UofM hospital, with your classmates going to many of the smaller community hospitals in the area.

Wayne students rotate at:

DMC: Detroit Receiving, Harper, Hutzel, Sinai-Grace, Children's.
Henry Ford main campus
Beaumont: Royal Oak and Troy
Oakwood main hospital
VA Detroit
St. John's main campus
Providence
North Oakland Medical Center
 
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KCHornet

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I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do not believe the implication is that MSU COM is the bad guy. They, like the DMC, and like WSU, run a business and have financial concerns to attend to, and rightfully so. The DMC deal would be great for exposure, recruiting, and expansion. They even asked about their exposure on DMC billboards, etc. The 50 spots would grow rapidly. Why would MSU COM be interested in leasing an entire city hospital to house only 50 students?

No fault of MSU COM, this is an aggressive move by the DMC to supplant WSU. The DMC has available spots to get residents. Each resident comes with over 100k from CMS. Right now there are some empty slots - no money coming in. Some are solely DMC MD - peds, SGH programs - money coming in. Some (most) are shared with WSU - money coming in - almost all to WSU except resident salaries/benefits - almost untouchable in terms of changing, accreditation.

The DMC is going to have a hard time filling the empty spots alone. They already tried with ortho. All the chaos the last two years makes the ACGME weary. Starting osteopath programs in partnership with a respected COM with those empty spots will be easier. Not because of quality/perception but b/c the DMC and WSU almost put the ACGME in an AWFUL position of closing the entire GME program and displacing hundreds of residents. That baggage isn't there with the DO program accredidation councils.

There is no reason to believe the DMC would not forfeit their solely sponsored MD programs and re-apply for DO programs. It would sweeten the pot for MSU COM to come to DMC. There is no WSU interest in those programs to oppose them. The pdf linked above appealing to MSU COM to come to DMC is crystal clear. DMC sees their MD programs as largely FMG populated. Anyone who has worked in their hospitals would know that there are a lot of FMG attendings - so their comment about the FMG's training and then bolting the region seems unfounded. Maybe statistically founded, but not from a day-to-day interaction with DMC attendings.

The sad fact for the WSU students is that no matter what happens with MSU COM, there is not going to be a happy ending for WSU-DMC. The DMC does not want to deal with a large collective organization of physicians (UPG - University Physicians Group) united under the university. They are interested in particular departments and services - not the whole package that the university incorporates. It has nothing to due with MD/DO differences, education, primary care in Detroit, or patient care.

WSU is not interested in weakening their collective stance for the sake of harmony downtown. They brought in a dean largely b/c he headed the physicians group at the University of Kentucky - not because of research or cardiothoracic surgery, or an educational mission - he has headed what they want and believe they need for collective bargaining and strength when negotiating with larger, richer hospital systems - a UPG.
 

Oliver313

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I feel that I need to respond as someone with some insight into things that have happened in the recent past...

...do you not think that we and our high tuition dollars are being used as pawns here? I hope that through the hype that it is clear that this new DMC-MSU partnership is just used as a manipulating tool for DMC to "strong arm" Wayne State.

I don't know if I would phrase it as WSU being "strong-armed" and manipulated...I would look at it as the DMC trying to secure its labor force and if it screws WSU in the process, then that's icing on the cake. Most people don't realize, notably until recently Dean Frank and Mentzer, that the DMC controls the money and thus controls the labor, etc...The DMC is going out of their way to lure MSU to come down and fill up Hutzel to work. The medical students are just the first people on the shore before they would have their residents down there. The DMC has little concern for WSU.

you CANNOT take an M.D. residency program and just flip it to a D.O. one. That is just frills in the proposition to make you feel energized, but it's not going to ever realistically happen (confirmed by someone in one of the mentioned departments).

It's funny about the misinformation. This was probably said by some of the same people that never thought that a residency (ortho) could vanish, that the negotiations would go all the way to Lansing, and that still don't understand the master agreement between the UPG, WSU and the DMC and couldn't even begin to fathom the CMS funding protocol and the 3-year average for resident alotment cap. Most attendings, and even the deans for that matter, speak out of their more inferior hole. If you refer to the above paragraph, the DMC controls the money. Please just ask someone who understands this and they will confirm this. The only reason that Duggan backed down in November was because a WSU alum with Republican ties threatened to ruin him politically if he persisted in destroying the WSU-DMC affiliation. This basically pushed Duggan, Malone and the rest of the board to step down at the 11th hour, but to continue to find other ways to split from WSU, and to continue using the $80 million per year and plan for a lucrative future of making $$$. That being said the DMC can decide what to do with its money, i.e. shut down an MD residency and start a DO one. The ACGME is different than the AOA, and while the ACGME might have issues with the DMC closing residencies, the AOA would be seeing them as a new sponsoring institution.


As for the reply...

I think the proposal is to get them dually accredited, or to start new ones with the DO chiefs. Which I believe is a great idea whether MSU moves in or not. Of course this would create more competition if they were dually accredited, but that's not really that big of a deal if you're qualified.

Residencies are not "dually accredited." You are either with the ACGME or the AOA. Now it doesn't mean that MD programs wouldn't take a DO or vice versa. That being said, since the DMC controls the money they could effectively start DO programs (with the 64 spots that they offered in their proposal) in the those areas that they lost in the last contract/year, namely ENT, Derm, Urology and Ortho. These residents would then be used as labor in the hospitals. If you notice the proposed DO section heads are mostly at Huron Valley and Sinai Grace. However, the lucrative residencies that the DMC would start up again don’t have a presence downtown and it is a safe assumption that these residents would rotate downtown to work. The important part to realize is that these DO section chiefs are DMC and DMC only. Meaning, that they would likely have little affilitation with WSU and more importantly be controlled by the DMC. This is a subtle yet important point for a few reasons. First, they would be Duggan and Malone’s b!tche$ and would answer to them (look who has given them a quasi-academic appointment with residents and signs their paycheck). Second, there is a big diference between someone who is in academics for the love of teaching and learning and research and someone who was only recently at a community hospital but was now appointed as a section chief. It’s a completely different mindset.

The MSU trustees and faculty of the college of osteopathic medicine are intelligent individuals.

I would honestly label them as learning impaired if they are seriously considering signing any contract with Duggan, Malone and the DMC. It’s possible that their subscriptions to the Free Press and the News ran out for the entire 2006 calendar year or that Lansing was isolated from any of the happenings of SE Michigan. It’s also possible that they didn’t see Duggan, Mentzer and Fink descended on Lansing to hammer out an agreement (not contract) around Thanksgiving…It’s possible… That, or they are ignoring the fact that the DMC has no regard for medical education except when it suits their goals of making money, i.e. CMS funding and free labor. I seriously can’t fathom why the board is even considering this.

The only reason that I can see is

Trustee Colleen M. McNamara
Michigan Cable Telecommunications Association
412 W. Ionia
Lansing MI 48933
(517) 482-2622 - Office
[email protected]

Enough said. (For those who don’t know, she is of the Michigan McNamaras of Granholm and Duggan fame.)



I don't claim to be an expert or anything on any of this, but I think Wayne students would be better served to suggest that Wayne State expand its clinical rotations outward.

Actually I think Wayne students are in the process to get more of the shaft as time goes on. If I was a Wayne student I would demand to know what is really happening. I would demand new leadership. How much money are you paying to be led by people that shouldn’t be in their positions…
 

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If I was a Wayne student I would demand to know what is really happening. I would demand new leadership. How much money are you paying to be led by people that shouldn’t be in their positions…

If you get this, I would also demand that it snow less in the winters and that they build a time machine, make Dominic Hasek and Gary Sheffield 10 years younger and force them to sign a 10 year contracts because if you can accomplish the former goals, you will be the only person on earth influential enough to get the latter.

Anyone who has dealt with the WSU leadership knows that "coming clean" with dour information like this is not on their priority list. They have great built-in excuses. There is always an application cycle or accredidation review around the corner. Never want to rock the waters with any of those coming up - especially if it "all might work out".

I am not so sure a DMC divorce is not what WSU wants as well. I just don't think they realized how paralyzed they are without the money. Any other hospital system they partner with will not give them a carte blanche run over GME and professional service dollars that they think they may get by being a single, multi-practice university group.

Add to the list of misinformation something I heard a lot in the hospitals this autumn - "if the program closes, they HAVE TO RELEASE our funding so we can find a new residency." This is rarely true - I believe, literally, a natural disaster is needed for that to be true. There have been enough unnatural disasters in this process that I never bothered looking up what happens with the natural ones.

Below is a taste of what the DMC thinks about the WSU SOM - their hostility toward osteopathy and not sending trainees to SGH or HV. Believe the promises of protecting the WSU students as much or little as you wish.

A Message from CEO Mike Duggan on DMC's bid to host MSU's osteopathic college campus.


In the next few weeks, MSU is going to make a decision of major importance to our community in deciding whether to site the new campus of their College of Osteopathic Medicine (COM) at Old Hutzel Hospital. It would be located in the vacant wing next to the Kresge Eye Institute.

DMC began as a long shot because of the atmosphere of hostility on the part of the WSU administration toward osteopathic medicine. But in the last month it seems the tide may have turned due to the united efforts of Mayor Kilpatrick, County Executive Ficano, the City Council, the County Commission, Detroit's state legislators, the Midtown business leadership, and the Hudson-Webber Foundation, all working together to bring MSUCOM to Detroit

Our proposal is pretty simple: rent vacant space at Old Hutzel to MSU for the classroom teaching of 1st and 2nd year students. Then host 3rd and 4th year MSU student rotations at Sinai Grace and Huron Valley Sinai in a training program led by private DO's.

Why is being in Detroit so important? The city is in crisis for lack of primary care physicians. Detroiters are now hospitalized for treatable conditions such as asthma, diabetes, and heart failure at rates 2-5 times higher than their suburban neighbors. MSUCOM is a huge source of future primary care doctors. More than 50% of all MSU DO graduates stay in Michigan and practice primary care.

From DMC's standpoint, the finances of Hutzel Hospital will improve when MSUCOM leases 20,000 square feet of space that has stood vacant for 4 years. It will also allow the Kresge Eye Institute to remain permanently located at Old Hutzel, because the building will now house enough paying tenants to remain open.

MSUCOM is also very important to the futures of Sinai Grace and Huron Valley. It has always bothered me that DMC has this unspoken double standard that the downtown hospitals are somehow more important because they're the base for WSU teaching programs. For years, WSU has treated Sinai Grace and Huron Valley as afterthoughts, assigning those hospitals very few, if any, WSU students or residents in most specialties or rotations.

I don't accept the idea that Sinai Grace or Huron Valley have to take a back seat to anyone. I believe they can be excellent teaching hospitals on their own, particularly if they are bolstered by a strong affiliation with MSUCOM and led by a core of highly committed private DO's. Dr. Jack Belen at Huron Valley and Drs. Mohamed Siddique and John Haapaniemi at Sinai Grace share this vision and are leading the effort. This approach doesn't burden the WSU full time faculty now teaching students and doesn't disrupt rotations of any WSU medical students.

This plan has two key pieces:
1) Protect the WSU medical students from any infringement on their DMC hospital rotations. The WSU teaching program is extremely important to DMC and this community, which is why the DMC Board and I have both provided WSU President Reid written guarantees that if MSUCOM locates on our campus, no WSU student will be deprived of a DMC hospital rotation as a result.

2) Build a single coordinated Huron Valley/Sinai Grace DO training program using committed private physicians. Many don't realize Huron Valley has hosted its own DO residencies for years and is already a base hospital for MSUCOM medical student rotations. The medical leadership at both Huron Valley and Sinai Grace have agreed to partner to create a single outstanding DO training program that crosses both institutions.

When I first came to DMC, I couldn't understand why my predecessors hadn't made the obvious changes needed to avoid bankruptcy and position DMC for long term success. I've since come to understand that for some reason at DMC all change is opposed by some faction, usually in ways that involve lots of nastiness and personal attacks. I think my predecessors just got worn down and gave up. I can't tell you how much it has meant that Mayor Kilpatrick and County Executive Ficano have stood with DMC every step of this battle for more than a year.

I don't know how the MSU decision is going to turn out, but I do know it would be great for the City of Detroit and great for DMC's long-term survival. Chicago and Philadelphia each host five medical schools. Doesn't it seem like Detroit should be able to accommodate two?

Mike
 

KCHornet

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Well, today was tour day.
The papers made it sound like WSU president Reed made a last ditch appeal to the city to repeal their support of the DMC. Seemed unlikely since they are selling the DMC proposal as the mayor's idea.

There was speculation of a decision either today or after the 5/18 board meeting.

Anyone have any update about a decision?
 

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This sounds like a bad idea to me. Seems like having two sites will cost a lot more considering they would have to lease two sites instead of just one. Also, it seems as though this would be an administrative nightmare, along with a nightmare for people who would have to commute in between and everything like that. I am from southeast Michigan, and I know that a trip from downtown (DMC area) to where MCC is would be about 35 - 40, MOST LIKELY a lot more, because of rush hours and things like that. I say, pick one.
 

afriend

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This sounds like a bad idea to me.

Agreed. I think that their idea was to have something like half the students at both sites, rather than a commuter plan.

DMC and WSU were in front of the Detroit City Council this morning about the MSU site, and these articles just came up:

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070502/BUSINESS06/70502030
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070502/UPDATE/705020467/1003

For pictures of DMC taking WSU off the signs before the MSU Board visit, see the May 1 Free Press article below:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007705010361
 

KCHornet

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"A split is not a good idea. The school belongs in one location and Macomb County is the best location," said Ognjan, an infectious disease specialist on the staff of Mount Clemens Regional Medical Center. "It's not good for training purposes and cohesiveness to have two sites."

If the MCC people feel this way, shouldn't they oppose the expansion of the school away from the primary site to begin with?

Shouldn't you have to provide some sort of objective proof if you are going to make a statement like the last one? Would they be prepared to provide clincal rotations at only one site as to maintain the cohesiveness of the students on clinical rotations by not dividing them between more than one hospital, etc?

Dr. Ognja's academic credentials need to me delineated as well since he seems willing to speak as an authority of sorts on how to maximize the quality of medical education.

Did anyone see the painted "S"? How big was it?
 

nikki123

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The "S" was definitely huge. It was about 8-9 feet in length (from the bottom of the S to the top). There was also a very large green & white sign on the main entrance to the Old Hutzel Building reading "Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine Detroit Campus." All of the entrance windows of the Old Hutzel Building had Green Spartan Ss on them.
 
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BWalkerMSU

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Agreed. I think that their idea was to have something like half the students at both sites, rather than a commuter plan.

Yeah, that could very well be a possibility, but then isn't that the same as creating two satellite campus' instead of one?

If that is the case, I still think it's a bad idea.
 

drchick331

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I am sure many of you are aware of Tonight's Town Hall at U of M. Here are the details...I can see that this topic has generated a fair amount of interest on SDN, so let's bring this into an open forum...

What: Statewide medical student town hall meeting
Who: Osteopathic and allopathic medical students
Why: Concerns for quality of clinical training with increasing statewide student population - specific to DMC, WSU, and MSU
The goal is to 1) increase student awareness and 2) solidify the student
position statewide
Where: University of Michigan, Med Science II, main student lecture halls (directions below)
When: Thursday 5/3, 8-10 pm

Directions:
From Lansing:
I-96 East toward Detroit (~40 miles)
US-23 South toward Ann Arbor (14 miles)
take exit 45 onto M-14 West toward Downtown Ann Arbor (1 mile?) take exit 3 toward Downtown A2, merge onto N main street turn left onto Huron st - heading east now go past undergrad campus on right and fun shops/theatres there is a light at Glen Ave go past brand new biomedical research building on the left with funny potato chip-looking auditorium Turn left onto Zina-Pitcher, go through 1st light, get into left lane at 2nd light (right in front of med schoo)l, can only turn left turn left and park in Catherine Street parking structure (it's open to public after 6 pm) - see more below

From Detroit:
I-94 West toward Chicago
US-23 North toward Flint
take exit 37B toward Ann Arbor, merge onto Washtenaw Blvd heading west after third light (Huron parkway, can see Qdoba, Barnes and Noble), stay in far right lane, will veer towards right before next light - watch speed limit here - famous ticket spot!!
continue past Greek houses and undergrad campus on the left - keep going get into right hand lane...will pass tennis courts on the right....get ready turn right onto Zina-Pitcher right before the brand new biomedical research building with funny potato chip-looking auditorium go through 1st light, get into left lane at 2nd light right in front of med school, can only turn left turn left and park in Catherine Street parking structure (it's open to public after 6 pm)

For everyone:
after parking, cross the street and take the stairs down - go through the panel of 4-6 black doors with glass head straight towards lecture halls. We will meet you there:D
 

E from the D

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what sign on old hutzel. my office is jsut inside the main enterance and there is definatly no huge sign. unless i missed it. which means it wasn't that huge. was this just a proposed sign or something.
 

E from the D

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o ok i was confused. i didn't read it was only up for one day. I must have missed it that day. I went outside to look before i posted that.
 

inked_caduceus

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Hey, another WSU student here (MSII).

First off, I want to thank all the MSU kids for understanding our point of view. I'm coming off a mountain of pathology, wondering how step I is going to go... oh, and hoping I have somewhere for clinical training. I'll definitely admit to being scared - the students really aren't being consulted in any of this, and our leadership seems to be DOA, if you'll pardon the term.

Oh, and just to clarify one point -
"rent vacant space at Old Hutzel to MSU for the classroom teaching of 1st and 2nd year students."

This space isn't vacant. This is the site of our clinical skills center, where we learn almost all of our physical diagnosis skills in simulated patient encounters, take our year I OSCE and learn year III/IV skills such as how to run codes.

They're talking about moving the whole operation into trailers. How are you ever going to convince a standardized patient to sit in a hospital gown in a trailer in January in Michigan?

I sincerely hope this comes out with as little shafting as possible, but it's looking rather bleak from down here in Scott Hall.
 

Doctor Bagel

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That it is (it's actually closer for most people) and, as an added bonus, it's not nearly the cesspool that parts of Detroit are.

Dude, do you stalk all these threads looking for random reason to knock urban America? Believe me, we already know you don't like it -- you don't need to point it out every day.
 

KCHornet

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The split the paper describes seems like no split at all, but double the size of the expansion, 50 at 2 sites, not just 50 at one. That sounds like a huge success for MSU in terms of the effort to expand. I assume they do not have to apply to get more spots with an accreditation council, or are already pre-approved to do so.

Kuddos to them.
 
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