MSW, LPC, or Psy D (no arrogance intended please)

[goodfella1]

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Sorry this seems arrogant, I know all these professions offer a lot to the public. I personally think there are some MHCs and MSWs that probably can help me or anyone else more than a Psy D. Training figures, but people who care about their work matters most.

The only thing is I care about my work, but I also care about my financial comfort. So I will write my dilemma in the most honest, but least arrogant, way possible.

I applied to Psy D programs-- only two because I didn't think I'd get into them, I applied to two LPCs and three MSWs-- all in New York. The LPCs are Brooklyn College and City College, and the MSWs are Hunter, NYU, and Fordham. I got accepted to NYU, and it is clinically intensive which I like (but the tuition is very expensive). I would rather go to Hunter bc it's MUCH cheaper-- and has a great reputation, but it isn't as clinically intensive.

I wonder what the prospects for these jobs are and if in the long run whether it would be a wiser investment than a Psy D. In terms of my goals, I'm interested in counseling and opening up a private practice in the future. I am willing to work in hospitals and public settings and work with all types of adult populations. I really am most interested in anxiety, depression, and personality disorders, but I'm willing to work with anyone and experience everything. Since I have not yet done any counseling and since I am not sure if I can handle a huge loan investment would it be better for me to forsake the Psy D altogether?

I was always looking to get a Psy D and the thought of learning more about psychology and counseling really gets me excited. I've been working toward having good credentials for a Psy D for three years now. I've been to graduate school, while working part-time and I am 32 years old and I want to start a future and life for myself. I also want to make more money, and prestige factors in too.

But, I've heard so many horror stories about loan repayments and debts (particularly on this forum, which isn't really to blame if it's true) that I'm starting to get spooked out. A lot of people say that they wouldn't have done it again if they had the choice. Are paying back loans that difficult? Do Psy D's really make a better income? I know that there are a lot of pieces to explaining this, but will anyone care to answer by estimate.

I think of mental health counseling and all the courses seem interesting to me, but I've heard that jobs are slim pickings for some, money is not very good, and it's hard to get insurance companies to cover. I know social work has more jobs and money to offer, but it's not as psychologically intensive when you first begin your MSW, and won't become psychologically intensive until you move on to a LCSW. I know what's like to be in a program that isn't interesting me, and it really sucks so I'm not too sure about that. I care about social issues, but I'm mostly turned on by psychology and the mind.

In short, should I go for my Psy D-- will I make back my investment?

Should I go for an MHC if the course work is more interesting to me than an MSW, even though it isn't given the credit it deserves and has trouble with insurance companies and making more money than MSWs?

Should I go for an MSW and find my way within a program and then get to where I go afterwards by practicing therapy and eventually opening a private practice (even if the training in school won't be ideal for me)?

I appreciate anyone's input on the matter. I know these questions can be tiresome to read because they are so often asked. I guess they are for a reason, though.

 

[Vasa Lisa]

First congrats on having choices!

Second - it doesn't have to be an "either or" - it can be a "both and."

Both the MA/MSW degree and the PsyD degree. I am sure you have read all the threads on the Psychology board about this very dilemma.

If your final goal is to do THERAPY in private practice, you might want to pursue the route with the highest concentration of clinical training and know that you will also be doing a lot of work and study on your own in addition to school in order to become a competent therapist. There will be dues to be paid along the way and no short cuts.

If your final goal is to do Assessment, Testing, and Therapy - you will need the PhD/PsyD - although some School Psychologists do testing with an EdS. Not sure what kind of testing they can do outside the school system though. In my program - the School Psych people didn't take much counseling coursework, but all of them walked into high paying jobs as school psychologists and their program like mine was also 60 credits.

If your final goal is to make money and be financially secure, I don't think there are many helping professions that pay all that well. It used to be in my area that an MSW who worked for two years postgrad to get their LCSW could waltz into the VA making in the mid 50K range with super benefits and work their way up $$$. I don't see many of those jobs anymore and the competition is stiff.

I would be more employable if I went the MSW route, but not more employable where *I* want to work. AND I had zero interest in the MSW curriculum. My friends who are MSWs love their work for the most part - and their work is very different than mine.

It is good to consider the financial outcomes - but what is more important is to have your work be in alignment with your passion and your inherent skills. Read the threads here and you will see people who are disillusioned by this profession and what is required to be successful. You are asking the right questions at the right time to help you avoid that outcome.

What surprises me is the number of people who want to be a therapist in private practice, or a clinical psychologist in a hospital setting, or an LCSW at the VA who have never worked or volunteered or had any experience at all working in the profession. There is a huge diversity of settings within this work and depending on what you are interested in - could influence the training that you pursue at the grad level. It seems that some who come to SDN figure out AFTER they are in the program what it means to be a (fill in the blank) and wish they had instead become a (fill in the blank). And that is just part of life... And there are paths to take that make it more likely that your grad school investment will lead to a satisfying outcome.

If you are not sure which to pursue - why not take a few years off - work as a case manager, group home staff, psychiatric tech, behavioral aid, etc. - the list is endless and see for yourself what setting suits you and within that setting you will see who is doing what you want to do and what their credentials are and how they got where they are.

Grad school is a long, hard, slog - and expensive unless you are able to get a full ride (many of my peers had complete tuition waivers for most of their 60 hours and a small stipend for their work as GAs). And still it was a long, hard, slog.

AND - for most of my cohort - and for me - we are all working in satisfying jobs that are getting us close to licensure as LPCs. I think two people from my cohort are going on for PhDs after they get all their LPC hours. Two people from the cohort before me went on for their PhDs in Counselor Education. The cohort before, one guy went straight into a PsyD program - he hated the CMHC program! One guy from several years before went off and got a PhD in neuropsych and worked at the VA for a few years. But for the most part, the folks in my program are working as counselors.

 

[sabaijae]

Goodfella - I'm in quite a similar situation; 30 years old and ready to get on with it. I'm probably going to go the EdS/MA School Psych route, although I would prefer the PhD (but have an anthropology not a psych background, so have a lot of catch up to do).

In my program - the School Psych people didn't take much counseling coursework, but all of them walked into high paying jobs as school psychologists and their program like mine was also 60 credits.

Lisa - if you dont mind my asking - just curious, what range would you consider 'high paying' (for the EdS folks)? Thanks ...

 

[goodfella1]

Hey thanks for your input! It is very much appreciated. I have some options and questions to answer for myself. But you're right, Vassa Lisa. Options are good to have.

I guess I will find my way soon enough.

 

[Qwerk]

I couldn't tell from your post -- did you mean that you haven't heard from Hunter, or that you didn't get in? If you do get in, I'd strongly suggest going. It's generally known as the most selective program in NYC -- plus, the tuition is the best. I can't justify spending a lot of money on an M.S.W. at a time when the market for social workers isn't as certain as it used to be. Even getting a Psy.D. would be a gamble, especially if you go into heavy debt for it. I'm not sure how well-known Hunter is outside of NYC if you decide to move after graduation, but I'm willing to bet on its reputation.

I think it's a misconception that Hunter isn't as clinical as NYU. This belief might stem from Hunter's reputation as a community organizing school. The clinical program is less well-known, though I believe it's the most popular concentration. If you do end up choosing the clinical track, Hunter has plenty of courses in psychopathology, diagnosis, and therapeutic techniques. Many students choose psychotherapeutic settings for their second-year field placements. (Full disclosure: current accelerated clinical Hunter student, delighted with my program.)

 

[Vasa Lisa]

Lisa - if you dont mind my asking - just curious, what range would you consider 'high paying' (for the EdS folks)? Thanks ...

33% more than offers for my cohort 🙂

 

[goodfella1]

Hey Qwerk,

Thanks for your feedback. I want to go to Hunter, but I haven't heard back from them. I guess since you were accepted you don't know if they would not bother to contact you to deny your admission. I haven't heard a thing from them, but I remember when I applied they said their system had gone down and so maybe they are a little later in the game than they are supposed to be. Has anyone else heard from Hunter about admission to MSW program?

 

[Qwerk]

Hey Qwerk,

Thanks for your feedback. I want to go to Hunter, but I haven't heard back from them. I guess since you were accepted you don't know if they would not bother to contact you to deny your admission. I haven't heard a thing from them, but I remember when I applied they said their system had gone down and so maybe they are a little later in the game than they are supposed to be. Has anyone else heard from Hunter about admission to MSW program?

Although I don't know a lot about the two-year admissions process, I do know that everyone in my cohort heard about their admissions decisions at different times. I was told during my interview that I would be notified within two weeks of my interview, and received an email a day after my interview about my acceptance. Other people heard earlier because they had earlier interviews, and others heard later. Have you interviewed yet? If so, did they tell you anything during your interview about the timetable?

 

[GradStudent87]

I feel I am in a very similar situation as the OP. I wanted PSYD as my top choice and didn't get in and now am heavily debating MHC vs MSW. I also feel my reasoning for all three degrees is almost the exact same as the OP so I know what it's like to make this kind of decision.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I feel I am in a very similar situation as the OP. I wanted PSYD as my top choice and didn't get in and now am heavily debating MHC vs MSW. I also feel my reasoning for all three degrees is almost the exact same as the OP so I know what it's like to make this kind of decision.

There are *HUGE* differences between those 3 degrees. If you are considering all three degrees, then you should probably figure out what you want to do as a career....because they are not interchangeable.

 

[LTJG2012]

I feel I am in a very similar situation as the OP. I wanted PSYD as my top choice and didn't get in and now am heavily debating MHC vs MSW. I also feel my reasoning for all three degrees is almost the exact same as the OP so I know what it's like to make this kind of decision.

I have a lot of respect for the PsyD degree, however if you are not pursuing that, the MSW is the way to go. MSW degree allows you to obtain (with 2 yrs supervised clinical experience), the LCSW licensure, which is widely respected and recognized across the US, including the military. In some states and the federal government, as a non-MD behavioral health provider, the ONLY independently privileged providers able to be credentialed are licensed psychologists (with PhD or PsyD from an APA accredited university), or Licensed Clinical Social Workers who graduated from a CSWE accredited program). Other degrees/programs/licensure are still dealing in some parts of the country and fed gov't with credibility problems, even though they may be just as good in many cases education wise.

 

[cbkoc]

I have a lot of respect for the PsyD degree, however if you are not pursuing that, the MSW is the way to go. MSW degree allows you to obtain (with 2 yrs supervised clinical experience), the LCSW licensure, which is widely respected and recognized across the US, including the military. In some states and the federal government, as a non-MD behavioral health provider, the ONLY independently privileged providers able to be credentialed are licensed psychologists (with PhD or PsyD from an APA accredited university), or Licensed Clinical Social Workers who graduated from a CSWE accredited program). Other degrees/programs/licensure are still dealing in some parts of the country and fed gov't with credibility problems, even though they may be just as good in many cases education wise.

very informative. so the lcsw is needed to do the therapy component? i'm dealing with similar concerns as the OP i think haha.

one thing still bothers me, though. as i understand it, msw programs are not competitive to get into, nor do they require the gre. they only take 2 years to complete. i've read that they aren't even difficult to obtain, or very in-depth programs, much less so than, say, a masters in clinical (someone please correct me if i'm mistaken). yet they are somehow higher on the totem pole in terms of respect/flexibility/earnings than therapists. where is the catch??

 

[GradStudent87]

There are *HUGE* differences between those 3 degrees. If you are considering all three degrees, then you should probably figure out what you want to do as a career....because they are not interchangeable.

That is true and I'll acknowledge that even though I applied to all 3, I definitely knew the most about the PsyD degree as their websites definitely offer the most information and I was able to attend full day long interviews giving me a strong sense of what that kind of program would offer. I am still not as sure of what degrees in social work and mental health counseling offer but I am gaining a better sense of it from asking faculty at the programs I got into questions and attending info sessions.

While I certainly acknowledge it is true the degrees train you to do different things (with the PsyD emphasizing more research&assessment, social work emphasizing how social systems influence pathology and public policy in general and MHC seems to be more geared toward training in career development and psychiatric clinics) my end goal is to be a therapist and I do feel all 3 degrees in the end lead to that goal. They all have pluses and minuses imo, like I said my top choice was PsyD but I haven't gotten in and I do feel at this point in my life I know I want some degree that can lead to licensure as a therapist because while I enjoy the work I do now I know it's not ultimately what I want to do.

 

[sabaijae]

33% more than offers for my cohort 🙂

Ah, thanks. 🙂

 

[zensouth]

very informative. so the lcsw is needed to do the therapy component? i'm dealing with similar concerns as the OP i think haha.

one thing still bothers me, though. as i understand it, msw programs are not competitive to get into, nor do they require the gre. they only take 2 years to complete. i've read that they aren't even difficult to obtain, or very in-depth programs, much less so than, say, a masters in clinical (someone please correct me if i'm mistaken). yet they are somehow higher on the totem pole in terms of respect/flexibility/earnings than therapists. where is the catch??

Warning- opinions ahead!

It's called having a bad ***** lobbying group. Your reasoning is correct- the programs are short, and they try to prepare you for too much without any specialization. I currently work with an MSW intern at a community mental health clinic. She is doing intakes and DIAGNOSING mental disorders, and has been for about 6 months, but only recently took a diagnostic course . . . in the last few weeks (her final semester). For a MHC/LPC you may have several semesters of classes relating to doing therapy, but in a MSW you may have very few. However, you are right that there are probably more job opportunities for MSW/LCSW. Through my discussions with other MSW people I consistently get that their lobbying group has made great strides in promoting their utility.

While MSWs enjoy a generally favorable reputation, I have come across others (LPCs, LMHC, PhDs, PsyDs, etc) who, when an MSW/LCSW isn't around, will trash talk the degree/credentials. I think it has to do with the very concerns you raise. Some MSWs are more competitive than others, but for example I did an M.Ed. for professional counseling, and that program only accepts 15 people a year maximum. Compare that to the local MSW program which has upwards of 80 per year.

However, I have worked with plenty of skilled MSW/LCSW clinicians, but they typically do much more beyond their degree- taking courses to specialize in certain therapies, seeking out the best supervisors after graduation, etc. I think to be a great MSW it will require a lot of initiative on the part of the graduate beyond just showing up for the classes.

 

[Qwerk]

Warning- opinions ahead!

It's called having a bad ***** lobbying group. Your reasoning is correct- the programs are short, and they try to prepare you for too much without any specialization. I currently work with an MSW intern at a community mental health clinic. She is doing intakes and DIAGNOSING mental disorders, and has been for about 6 months, but only recently took a diagnostic course . . . in the last few weeks (her final semester). For a MHC/LPC you may have several semesters of classes relating to doing therapy, but in a MSW you may have very few. However, you are right that there are probably more job opportunities for MSW/LCSW. Through my discussions with other MSW people I consistently get that their lobbying group has made great strides in promoting their utility.

While MSWs enjoy a generally favorable reputation, I have come across others (LPCs, LMHC, PhDs, PsyDs, etc) who, when an MSW/LCSW isn't around, will trash talk the degree/credentials. I think it has to do with the very concerns you raise. Some MSWs are more competitive than others, but for example I did an M.Ed. for professional counseling, and that program only accepts 15 people a year maximum. Compare that to the local MSW program which has upwards of 80 per year.

However, I have worked with plenty of skilled MSW/LCSW clinicians, but they typically do much more beyond their degree- taking courses to specialize in certain therapies, seeking out the best supervisors after graduation, etc. I think to be a great MSW it will require a lot of initiative on the part of the graduate beyond just showing up for the classes.

As a clinical-track M.S.W. student, I agree with this. Many M.S.W. pathways don't offer or require diagnostic/therapy courses at all. Some schools, especially the less-competitive ones, offer very little actual therapeutic training. If you go for an M.S.W., scrutinize the program more carefully than you would a counseling or MFT program. Make sure your school offers specializations in clinical work and that you hear from graduates of that program.

 

[GradStudent87]

Warning- opinions ahead!

It's called having a bad ***** lobbying group. Your reasoning is correct- the programs are short, and they try to prepare you for too much without any specialization. I currently work with an MSW intern at a community mental health clinic. She is doing intakes and DIAGNOSING mental disorders, and has been for about 6 months, but only recently took a diagnostic course . . . in the last few weeks (her final semester). For a MHC/LPC you may have several semesters of classes relating to doing therapy, but in a MSW you may have very few. However, you are right that there are probably more job opportunities for MSW/LCSW. Through my discussions with other MSW people I consistently get that their lobbying group has made great strides in promoting their utility.

While MSWs enjoy a generally favorable reputation, I have come across others (LPCs, LMHC, PhDs, PsyDs, etc) who, when an MSW/LCSW isn't around, will trash talk the degree/credentials. I think it has to do with the very concerns you raise. Some MSWs are more competitive than others, but for example I did an M.Ed. for professional counseling, and that program only accepts 15 people a year maximum. Compare that to the local MSW program which has upwards of 80 per year.

However, I have worked with plenty of skilled MSW/LCSW clinicians, but they typically do much more beyond their degree- taking courses to specialize in certain therapies, seeking out the best supervisors after graduation, etc. I think to be a great MSW it will require a lot of initiative on the part of the graduate beyond just showing up for the classes.

I think your last sentence is probably true for any degree especially any masters level degree that can lead to becomming a therapist. However one thing you did touch on that i prefer about MHC vs MSW is that MHC seems more competitive and because the programs are smaller I am thinking they may give students more attention and feedback which could be beneficial toward professional development. However I also know that MSW is a more recognized and respected degree hence why I am still ambivalent.

 

[Vasa Lisa]

]In some states and the federal government, as a non-MD behavioral health provider, the ONLY independently privileged providers able to be credentialed are licensed psychologists (with PhD or PsyD from an APA accredited university), or Licensed Clinical Social Workers who graduated from a CSWE accredited program). Other degrees/programs/licensure are still dealing in some parts of the country and fed gov't with credibility problems, even though they may be just as good in many cases education wise.

Not sure this is true. Check this publication:
http://www1.va.gov/vapubs/viewPublication.asp?Pub_ID=507&FType=2

Here is an excerpt: (bold and underline are mine)

(2) GS-11 Licensed Professional Mental Health Counselor (Full Performance Level)
(a) Experience, Education, and Licensure. In addition to the basic requirements, candidates must
have at least 1 year of post-master’s degree mental health counseling experience;
OR
In addition to the basic requirements, a doctoral degree in mental health counseling, or a related field
may be substituted for the required 1 year of professional mental health counseling experience.

(b) Assignments. This is the full performance level for LPMHCs. At this level they are licensed to
independently practice professional counseling and to provide mental health services within the
knowledge, theory, and training foundations of professional counseling. They may be assigned to any
mental health VHA area, consulting with peers and supervisors as appropriate. LPMHCs may be
involved in program evaluation and/or research activities.

I am not naive 🙂 well maybe a little!

Just because the VA is now allowed to hire LPCs doesn't mean it is all smooth sailing. My understanding is there are so few LPCs that getting supervision for LPC licensure is difficult. And they do require counselors to graduate from a CACREP program.

 

[Vasa Lisa]

one thing still bothers me, though. as i understand it, msw programs are not competitive to get into, nor do they require the gre. they only take 2 years to complete. i've read that they aren't even difficult to obtain, or very in-depth programs, much less so than, say, a masters in clinical (someone please correct me if i'm mistaken). yet they are somehow higher on the totem pole in terms of respect/flexibility/earnings than therapists. where is the catch??

For me the catch is/was - that when I was in my internship and sat down with real clients - I had a lot of counseling experience and theoretical training on counseling - and had already passed a comprehensive exam of my counseling skills. I worked with people in their second year of MSW school who had never worked with an individual client and they felt very unprepared.

On the other hand - I took some great training from an MSW/LCSW who was a fantastic clinician! She rocked. She was also ten years post licensure.

... and MHC seems to be more geared toward training in career development and psychiatric clinics) my end goal is to be a therapist and I do feel all 3 degrees in the end lead to that goal.

Out of 60 credits - I had one 3 credit class in career counseling. Very few of my cohort went on to work in psychiatric clinics.

Warning- opinions ahead!

Zensouth - you are preaching to the choir - or at least you are preaching to my choir - and I am resonating with what you have experienced.

My program was quite competitive - I don't remember the exact stats - I think I posted them here one time - but can't find them. My program only takes 10 - 12 per year and I think the # of applicants was around 100?

I took classes with my LPC/LMHC cohort but also with school counselors, school psychologists, and of course the PsyD (clinical APA) folks. It is comical how different we all were. It felt like we self selected into our own groups based on our desired identity as "helpers."

The LPCs were definitely the most "process" oriented! (as in process not content)

There are fine folks in all these fields. There are no bad guys. There are poorly trained and poorly qualified professionals in all areas of life including therapy. And there are terrific clinicians who come out of lots of different kinds of training experiences.

It is HARD to choose... but in the end - if what you want to do is to do therapy - you will find a way to become competent - beginning with having tx yourself and ending with a continuing supervision or consultation relationship as long as you practice therapy. (IMNSHO!)

I am valuing the great collaboration that is happening here as we come together to share our experiences and ask questions and learn more about other professions. I admit SW is the one I know least about since I haven't trained or worked with many.

VL

 

[cbkoc]

really amazing advice from everyone, thank you all.

it is so strange to me that MSWs are entrusted with so much, in some cases without the proper training. it makes me a little nervous to go this route, but something about this degree really resonates with me. i suppose i'll talk to lots of recent graduates of the best, most clinically-oriented schools and hopefully one will work out for me : P

 

[zensouth]

Zensouth - you are preaching to the choir - or at least you are preaching to my choir - and I am resonating with what you have experienced.


The LPCs were definitely the most "process" oriented! (as in process not content)

VL

Lol, so true! Yeah, I came from an LPC program and we were all about process. In fact I spent two semesters using Ed Teyber's Interpersonal Process textbook. Absolutely invaluable, I recommend that book to ANYONE working in the mental health field.

And Vasa Lisa, it does seem like we resonate quite a bit on these forums! And that's a good thing, it helps me to realize I am in good company in this field.

 

[zensouth]

really amazing advice from everyone, thank you all.

it is so strange to me that MSWs are entrusted with so much, in some cases without the proper training. it makes me a little nervous to go this route, but something about this degree really resonates with me. i suppose i'll talk to lots of recent graduates of the best, most clinically-oriented schools and hopefully one will work out for me : P

That's the ticket. You absolutely have to be happy with the degree you choose, it has to match you and you have to match it. I chose the LPC degree precisely because it resonated with me and my attitude about helping others and I have never regretted the choice. I wish you the same.

 

[cbkoc]

thank you! i'm sure i'll be lurking on this forum quite a bit in the upcoming years haha

 

[Vasa Lisa]

Lol, so true! Yeah, I came from an LPC program and we were all about process. In fact I spent two semesters using Ed Teyber's Interpersonal Process textbook. Absolutely invaluable, I recommend that book to ANYONE working in the mental health field.

Love Teyber!

I am such a lover of process that I read the book before I ever even applied to my counseling program. I am sure that was amusing to my profs. I was so earnest when I began. I can still be earnest!

I have a place on my clinical notes for what primary modality I used with clients in the session - often it is IPP (interpersonal process). My other frequent flyers are EA (expressive arts - dreamwork, collage, mandalas, poetry). SPT (supportive psychotherapy). DBT - Dialectical Behavior Therapy. MI (Motivational Interviewing). I have had a lot of training through the lens of attachment - and use the Adult Attachment Interview with some clients - and after doing a workshops with Dan Siegel and Sue Johnson I am inclined to make it part of my intake assessment for everyone.

And Vasa Lisa, it does seem like we resonate quite a bit on these forums! And that's a good thing, it helps me to realize I am in good company in this field.

It is great to find a kindred spirit at the watering hole.

VL

 

[Amy Post]

I want to work in public education either as a school counselor or school psychologist? does anyone know what the job market is like in NY? i do not have any relevant work experience in either of these professions. my work experience in general has been limited b/c i attended and graduated from a rigorous grad program in a completely unrelated field and decided it was not for me. i didn't put the time and research that i am now into figuring out what the job will really be like. now i am trying to speak to as many school counselors and school psychologists as i can to figure out if this is the right path for me. im really worried about the job market and the fact that i am not bilingual.

i wish there was a way for me to get a teaching degree and school counseling or school psychology degree at the same time so i'd have a back up plan. but short of literally enrolling in two programs there is not dual degree option. i feel very much stuck b/c im in my early 30s- made mistakes all along the way about what to study and now im in the same position as undergrads or recent undergrad graduates who are trying to figure out what to do.

does anyone have any advice? i really need some help.

 

[erg923]

I want to work in public education either as a school counselor or school psychologist?

Those are actually two very different jobs.

 

[Amy Post]

obviously i know those are two different jobs....that's not the type of advice i'm seeking.

 

[Lisa44201]

I want to work in public education either as a school counselor or school psychologist? does anyone know what the job market is like in NY? i do not have any relevant work experience in either of these professions. my work experience in general has been limited b/c i attended and graduated from a rigorous grad program in a completely unrelated field and decided it was not for me. i didn't put the time and research that i am now into figuring out what the job will really be like. now i am trying to speak to as many school counselors and school psychologists as i can to figure out if this is the right path for me. im really worried about the job market and the fact that i am not bilingual.

i wish there was a way for me to get a teaching degree and school counseling or school psychology degree at the same time so i'd have a back up plan. but short of literally enrolling in two programs there is not dual degree option. i feel very much stuck b/c im in my early 30s- made mistakes all along the way about what to study and now im in the same position as undergrads or recent undergrad graduates who are trying to figure out what to do.

does anyone have any advice? i really need some help.

obviously i know those are two different jobs....that's not the type of advice i'm seeking.

From your original post, it is not obvious, at all. You actually mention three degrees - teaching, school counseling, and school psychology. You also state that you have been talking to both school counselors and school psychologists (two degrees) to figure out if this (which suggests one, not two choices) is the right path for me.

So do you want to know about the job outlook for teachers, school counselors, or school psychologists in NY?

 

[erg923]

obviously i know those are two different jobs....that's not the type of advice i'm seeking.

We are asking which one you want? They require different strengths/skills and very different schooling, both in terms of degree and in length of training.

 

[Amy Post]

We are asking which one you want? They require different strengths/skills and very different schooling, both in terms of degree and in length of training.

Thank you for getting back to me. to clarify what i meant: I would like you to tell me what strengths and skills I would need as a teacher vs. school psychologists. I am no longer considering school counseling due to the job market and the fact that I am not bilingual (but mostly the lack of jobs.)

My worry with teaching is: the horror stories i am reading about teachers who quit teaching shortly after working or within a few years. according to them, it was a combination of administration, disruptive students, loads of paperwork and lack of respect that led them to this decision. it worries me b/c people say they love teaching but they do not end up teaching and are disrespected and focusing only on class room management. that the job is way too stressful for the pay and that they also work incredibly long 10 to 12 hour days.

with school psychology, i am worried about the job market, whether i need to be bilingual and the paperwork people describe- which they mention, the degree of which, was totally unexpected. when school psychologists talk about paperwork sometimes im curious if they mean the work is overwhelmingly challenging or if its just boring. doesn't the paperwork become routine after a while? i'd imagine it's not like writing something from scratch every time. then other school psychs say that they have to wear so many different hats.

i find aspects of both these jobs appealing but when i delve deeper and read forums, I am left clueless as to which would be less stressful in the end.

 

[erg923]

I am a psychologist and my wife is a teacher. Generally, we are nothing alike academically.

I think teachers obviously have to have an interest in behavior and pedagogy, and in learning how to adjust those two based on the indiduals needs. Caring and very patient obviously helps as well. School psychologist would really need to be interested in human learning, intellgence, mental health, and how those factors work togther within the learning enviorment. Enjoyment of psychometrics and statistics helps.

My wife works in the Catholic school system here, so behavior problems are really at a minimum.

 

[futureapppsy2]

My wife works in the Catholic school system here, so behavior problems are really at a minimum.

How so?

 

[erg923]

alot less physical fighting, alot more respect for authority, more desire to learn.

I think much of this is due to the values instilled by the parents, but I also feel that outside the confines of bureaucratic nonsense, you are actually able to effectively discipline (or follow through with disciplinary actions) students, therby setting a tone that then prevents other problems from ever starting.

For example, at my high school, detention consisted of standing with your nose touching a yellow piece of tape that was taped to a bare cement wall in an empty room. There was no talking and no moving unless there was a medical need to do so. It was mildly uncomfortable and a complete waste of time. Thus, it worked very well as a deterrent to aberrant behavior. Conversely, the public school system here can only assign "detention" with the parents permission and it consists of a room where students sit around and socialize until they are allowed to leave (think "Breakfast Club" minus the essay that everybody forced Anthony Micheal Hall to write) and can do homework if they wish. What a freakin joke....