MSW thinking about Psy D

[candlechick]

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Hi all!

I am new to this forum and thought it would be a good place to post a question I am having. I am currently getting my clinical MSW at a well-know university in the US and am considering moving forward to get a Psy D as well (not PhD because I am not interested in hard core research). I would like more training in areas such as cognitive and behavioral therapy and feel like my exposure to psychology in academia was SO limited (I got my BSW and went straight on to get my MSW). My interests really lie in clinical settings and both my undergrad and current internships are working with mental health related-issues. I feel that to really be a good clinician, I need more training and supervised experience-- and I expect I will also be able to make more $$ with a PsyD than a LICSW (eventually). Does this sound reasonable or is having an MSW just as good as a PsyD.

Also, do you think I would have a good shot at getting into a PsyD program without any solid studies in psychology?

Thanks for your help!

 

[deleted176373]

You do know that many Ph.D.'s are not hard core researchers... some of us are planning on primarily being practitioners and not primarily researchers. That said, I believe that the research background is beneficial and provides an education that is well rounded. This is not to slight the Psy.D., the two models each have their strengths, but rather to highlight the fact that many Ph.D.'s are planning on careers that are focused on practicing.

Mark

 

[erg923]

I would add at that if you're not prepared for "medium-core" research.....then the doctorate is not the best option. You have to have some natural inclination for research, even for the psy.d. You will have to produce orginal work in order to be competitive for intehships, and most psy.ds require a disseratation....although you can often do large reviews or use archival data...which kinda defeats the purpose in my mind, but thats another thread...🙂

Yes, the doctorate def ups your earning potential....not to be confused with what you will actually be making in many instances though. The job market is tough in many places and psychologists are starting at 50k or so. I know MSWs who make similar amounts.... without the 120k in loans.

Extensive research experience is usually not necessary for the psy.d app (but it never hurts), but you do need some.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You will have to produce orginal work in order to be competitive for intehships, and most psy.ds require a disseratation....although you can often do large reviews or use archival data...which kinda defeats the purpose in my mind, but thats another thread...🙂

Last year something like 700+ people did not match for internship. Sometimes even good candidates don't match (because of geographic restriction, competitiveness of their sites, etc), so the last thing a person wants to do is put themselves behind before they even apply. One of the easiest ways to do that is to show no productivity.

 

[futureapppsy2]

so the last thing a person wants to do is put themselves behind before they even apply. One of the easiest ways to do that is to show no productivity.

OTOH, I do know someone who matched two years ago (2007-2008 internship) to a pretty competitive site with VERY little research productivity (though, from what I know, their vita was excellent in terms of clinical experience, and they interview very well). It's definitely not something I'd count on, though, especially as internship grows more and more competitive.

I agree that if you want any doctoral degree, you need to be open to at least "medium-core"* research.

*I love that phrase, erg. May I borrow it?

 

[candlechick]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I guess I am still wondering if having an MSW prior to applying for a PsyD gives me any edge...

 

[candlechick]

This all depends on your operational definition of "as good as." In my opinion, no, not if you're goal is to do informed psychotherapy or assessments (social work is an inferior training model for that for lots of reasons, again, in my opinion). But, from a financial perspective, possibly.

Jon- why do you think Social work is inferior in this regard? just curious.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I guess I am still wondering if having an MSW prior to applying for a PsyD gives me any edge...

Probably not for competitiveness, as the coursework will be very different, and the depth of information will be far greater in a Psy.D. Prior MH experience won't get you selected over someone else, but once you are in....you may feel more comfortable in the clinical setting in the begining.

 

[erg923]

Jon- why do you think Social work is inferior in this regard? just curious.

Not speaking for him, but this should be pretty obvious..... The doctorate in any field is going to provide more indepth exposure, both in the underlying theory and practice of the dicipline, than a masters does. Being a good therapist requires more than being just a good "therapist." The doctorate provides the rest of the skill sets necessary to make an informed an well-rounded clinician. Most notably, higher level understanding of psychopathology and its causes, and a better ability to critically evaluate research and then integrate it with theory into your practice. Thinking like a scientist produces better clincians in my opnion.

PS: an MSW proivides no formal training in psychological asessment.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree with Jon about the training differences. One of the reasons for the difference is that many social work programs train their students for the administrative aspect of social work (case management, advocacy, dealing with social services, etc). Administrative training is really important for a treatment team, though it seems like this area has been pushed aside for therapy, which I'm not sure is appropriate.

 

[psychmama]

I do know some very fine therapists who are social workers. Most of these did advanced training after their MSW -- usually at an analytic or family therapy institute.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I do know some very fine therapists who are social workers. Most of these did advanced training after their MSW -- usually at an analytic or family therapy institute.

I know some great ones too.....though they all went on for much more in-depth specialized training after their licensure. There was no requirement to do that, but they did it because they wanted to better serve their pts. My issue is how easily someone can slip by and get licensed. In psychology, at least at APA sites, that really doesn't happen.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Probably not for competitiveness, as the coursework will be very different, and the depth of information will be far greater in a Psy.D. Prior MH experience won't get you selected over someone else, but once you are in....you may feel more comfortable in the clinical setting in the begining.

Gawd I'm starting to feel like a one-note Johnny around here (hopefully not music to beat a dead horse by)... I am having a really really hard time understanding how people justify the assessment that prior MH experience won't be a deciding factor...Especially if that assessment is followed by a statement like "...you may feel more comfortable in the clinical setting in the beginning." That seems huge, and I have to believe effects carry over in multiple dimensions (less stress there might mean less overall stress-load with classes, having a base of well-rounded MH experience to reflect on in classes seems a natural and logical complement to the dynamic of having classes to reflect on when going out into the clinical settings, etc.). But what do I know? It's not September 2010, and even when that time comes I may still be this side of the admissions process 🙄

 

[pingouin]

I agree with Jon about the training differences. One of the reasons for the difference is that many social work programs train their students for the administrative aspect of social work (case management, advocacy, dealing with social services, etc). Administrative training is really important for a treatment team, though it seems like this area has been pushed aside for therapy, which I'm not sure is appropriate.

Luckily in most states, having gone through an administrative MSW track makes a person ineligible for a clinical license and therefore ineligible to practice clinically.

 

[docma]

An MSW plus solid clinical experience (eg w/ SMI clients, in residential or inpatient settings, with specific clinical populations/conditions) will make you interesting to PsyD programs. It also expands your hiring range if/when you complete a PsyD because you can be hired into some jobs prior to licensure as a psychologist if you have the right degree and/or LCSW.

The LCSW is a very versatile and portable credential for clinical work and you can get good post degree training/certification in treatments (eg psychoanalytic institutes, DBT, etc.) that support many practice opportunities
without the doctorate.