MTM: Asheville Project update came out today

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WVUPharm2007

imagine sisyphus happy
20+ Year Member
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News Story

Actual journal article

A nice "**** you" to people who think retail/community pharmacy is completely fruitless. You can't argue with patient outcomes like this.

Clinical and economic benefits resulting from hypertension and dyslipidemia risk reduction education and long-term MTM by pharmacists were demonstrated in 12 community and hospital pharmacy settings over a six-year period. Several clinical indicators of patient's cardiovascular health improved over the course of the study, including:

* Percentage of patients at blood pressure goal increased from 40.2% at the start of the study to 67.4% by the study's end.
* Mean low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol decreased from 127.2 mg/dL at the start of study to 108.3 mg/dL by the study's end.
* Cardiovascular event rates fell by almost one-half, from 77 per 1,000 person–years during the historical period to 38 per 1,000 person–years during the study period.

In the actual journal article, it was noted that HDL levels went DOWN an average of 2 points per patient. That was really the only negative trend. A 53% decrease in risk of a CV event and greater than 50% decrease in risk of a CV-related ED/hospital visits were also observed. 👍

That's good stuff. This is the future of community pharmacy...get in while the gettin's good. And if nothing else, don't forget all the clinically relevant stuff about ambulatory patients you learned in Rx school.....you'll need it again some day...unless you are retiring in the next decade....
 
A nice "**** you" to people who think retail/community pharmacy is completely fruitless. You can't argue with patient outcomes like this.
The Ashville Project is the gold standard. I still haven't seen any MTM services in my neck of the woods. Its all talk until it is put into practice. I would love to see MTM everywhere but I'm really doubtful. No chain will hire a pharmacist just to counsel. A pharmacist will have to keep pumping out the script numbers and then do MTM on their downtime if they have any.
 
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The Ashville Project is the gold standard. I still haven't seen any MTM services in my neck of the woods. Its all talk until it is put into practice. I would love to see MTM everywhere but I'm really doubtful. No chain will hire a pharmacist just to counsel. A pharmacist will have to keep pumping out the script numbers and then do MTM on their downtime if they have any.

Rite Aid in West Virginia has full time pharmacists who just do the PEIA "Face to Face" diabetes and hypertension medication management. In fact, I did a rotation with one. Really, it's a good deal for the company. They get $70 per 30 min session and ensure that the patient will not forget to buy their monthly medications while they are there. And just about every block is used, too. $140/hour to pay someone $50/hour to talk to patients and review their disease management. No product is transfered other than an intellectual one....so it's pure profit.
 
A nice "**** you" to people who think retail/community pharmacy is completely fruitless. You can't argue with patient outcomes like this.
The Ashville Project is the gold standard. I still haven't seen any MTM services in my neck of the woods. Its all talk until it is put into practice. I would love to see MTM everywhere but I'm really doubtful. No chain will hire a pharmacist just to counsel. A pharmacist will have to keep pumping out the script numbers and then do MTM on their downtime if they have any.

In Lexington we have PharmacistCare which is very similiar to the Asheville project. It is a pharmacy that has not a single drug dispensed from it. Right now they are mainly take care of diabetes patients but are hoping to expand to other chronic conditions such as HTN and hypercholesterima.

Also, I did an EPPE this summer at a small community pharmacy in rural KY and they have a strong MTM program that I was able to help with.
 
Rite Aid in West Virginia has full time pharmacists who just do the PEIA "Face to Face" diabetes and hypertension medication management. In fact, I did a rotation with one. Really, it's a good deal for the company. They get $70 per 30 min session and ensure that the patient will not forget to buy their monthly medications while they are there. And just about every block is used, too. $140/hour to pay someone $50/hour to talk to patients and review their disease management. No product is transfered other than an intellectual one....so it's pure profit.

actually i know people who tried that but unless you are in an "independent" store, you wont get the money. the chain will keep it say you were on their time.
 
Like I pointed out before, don't hold your breath hoping that the physicians, NP's, or PA's will start referring their patients en masse to pharmacists. Managing medication is too much the bread and butter of medicine. If pharmacists want patients, they'll have to scrounge for them. If MTM does truly lower costs and significantly benefit the patient, is it so difficult that non-pharms aren't able to learn what pharms do so that they can apply it in their own practices? For reimbursement groups, wouldn't it be more cost-effective to simply hire pharms full-time to work in an office to pore through and optimize millions of prescriptions, similar to accountants working in the backoffice? Or to take that knowledge and put it into a computer program? The hospital I am affiliated with is pretty much all electronic. The electronic system does a pretty good job of catching overdoses and drug interactions and reminding us to emphasize certain side effects. If you're going to stake your future in a field, these are some things to ponder. Healthcare in the future will be more and more electronic and there will be more sharing of patient information. It will create new opportunities but also tear down old barriers. Every healthcare field will be affected.

Disclaimer is that I used to work in a different field where I designed such said automated systems. If I were still a software designer, these are the questions that I would be asking to determine if I could build such a system and what obstacles I could reasonably expect.
 
We (Pharmacists) don't need referals or blessings to do MTM through PartD, all we need is the patient and an insurance plan that covers MTM. Other insurances vary, but a lot of them are moving to make it based on the company and not referals from what I've seen. That being said, any medical staff can institute MTM, just most PCP offices seem unwilling to at this time.

And that makes business sense, PCP offices can make more by suffling through patients faster and MTM isn't a fast process. While appointments are 30 minutes, nearly everyone I know going through the process took almost an hour the first time. How many primary care physicians are willing to spend an hour with 1 patient?
 
We (Pharmacists) don't need referals or blessings to do MTM through PartD, all we need is the patient and an insurance plan that covers MTM. Other insurances vary, but a lot of them are moving to make it based on the company and not referals from what I've seen. That being said, any medical staff can institute MTM, just most PCP offices seem unwilling to at this time.

And that makes business sense, PCP offices can make more by suffling through patients faster and MTM isn't a fast process. While appointments are 30 minutes, nearly everyone I know going through the process took almost an hour the first time. How many primary care physicians are willing to spend an hour with 1 patient?

When people don't see a need to change, they won't change. When change happens for the worse, they adapt or go out of business.

I don't think pharms appreciate how significant managing meds is to medical practices. If practices start to lose patient visits because these large chains offer a new service, they will learn to adapt to retain those visits or they will go out of business. Because the physician, NP, or PA has the upper hand when it comes to control of the patient because they can diagnose as well as treat, I don't think MTM has that much of a future in its current form.

If MTM truly is a great thing, it will be incorporated into practices. I just don't see it as being the purview of only pharms. Maybe you'll have companies that will offer backoffice med optimizations. Or physicians will be trained on how to do it. Or practices will hire a pharm to do it for them. Or some computer program will do it for them. Because I have seen what automation can do, I have a lot of faith that a computer application can be designed to do it. What takes you an hour may take a program 1 sec, has fewer errors, and never complains about overtime.

Overall, I think med optimization is a great idea for patient care.

If in the future I see that there is a demand for such a system and it could be designed and developed, I would consider creating one and hopefully retire to a yacht in the Carib. The CEO of my old company basically did just that for wholesale energy trading and retired with at least $20 million in the bank before 40.
 
The point is physicians don't lose business because of MTM, if anything it would give them another revenue stream. It can be argued that NPs do and certainly ask-a-nurse system loses business, but I have yet to see anything that states physicians (and I would group PAs in that as well) lose business. In reality, MTM is (as I've read and discussed with practitioners) directed at patients taking multiple meds from multiple prescribers, asks three simple questions: Are these medications needed? Are the medications working? Are the patients taking the medications correctly?

If managing meds is so important to medical practices, why aren't the medications currently taken only asked on a form and then rarely reviewed in person? Why don't PCPs take more time to go over the current medication in their multidrug using patients? I haven't seen this when I'm with my parents or grandparents. Heck I couldn't even get my PCPs to talk to me about medications he was prescribing the nurse had to talk to me. Furthermore, with then average length of physician to patient time is <10 minutes these day how can you possibly fit diagnostic AND ambulatory information into that time frame?

I appreciate that the medical community may want to keep this under their umbrella, but they have to make the proactive changes to keep it there. I've stated before, MTM isn't limited in scope to a particular profession and I agree that PCP facilities can implement this, I have yet to see them act on this and it's been around for 2 years now (and been in the pipe since 03). That being said, retail pharmacy isn't jumping at it either, which disappoints me on many levels.

I find humor in you continually stating that MTM can be done by computers. While this is absolutely true, it's not the only thing that computers can do, cheaper, faster and more accurate. Leaving the entire human/computer interface out of the equation, you do realize that a computer can do any repetitive, structured set of events, including differential diagnosis. In fact several of the new cluster/farm (>2) system diagnostic programs use form of DD to help technicians diagnose failures. Hell even Sun uses it for their single system configurations. I don't think we'll see computerized physicians around anytime soon, but MTM isn't the only computerized possibility.

And yes, patents already exist for MTM and DD services. So much for retiring early. :laugh:
 
I find humor in you continually stating that MTM can be done by computers. While this is absolutely true, it's not the only thing that computers can do, cheaper, faster and more accurate. Leaving the entire human/computer interface out of the equation, you do realize that a computer can do any repetitive, structured set of events, including differential diagnosis.

Of course I considered this even before I went into medical school. Can the physician be replaced by computers? I concluded that the answer for the foreseeable future is no. Here's why. For something as simple as bronchiolitis, will the computer be able to interpret the lung sounds? Will it be able to interpret the breathing pattern? Nope. Someone has to input that data into a program. Maybe that person is a physician, PA, NP, RN, MA, etc. The inputting of the data is the key. A program is only as good as its data and algorithms. The more experience and trained a person the better the input. Inputting data is trickier than you may think. Right now, most data capture is just a drop down box. What if the choice you want isn't there? Computer programs have a really hard time understanding if you just free text things in because they can't do comparisons and look things up well. What if the input is wrong because the person doesn't know what the difference between a wheeze and a rhonchi is? If the data going in is crap, the output is crap. That's why a program can at best spit back a billion ddx's and give what it thinks is most likely, but the clinician has to determine what it really is. There's a reason why fields such as IT, accounting, finance, etc can be outsourced while the neighborhood plumber doesn't have to worry (except for illegal immigrants but that's another topic).

How is MTM different? Because the data would already be in a database and it's well-defined data. "Aspirin 81 mg PO BID" There's no haziness about it. If you know what the data will look like, you can write rules to determine drug interactions, potential side effects, best dosing, etc. The key to developing any application like this is always the data. If you trust the data and you know the rules (which you can get by hiring an army of pharms), you can build a program.

So what would such a system look like? I would feed information about allergies, past and current prescriptions, previous drug reactions, etc into it and it would spit back medication recommendations based on MTM or whatever will be the gold standard. Since I would know the patient and his medical history well, I would be able to accept or reject recommendations. This could all be done in seconds and there could be multiple iterations until we're satisfied with the recommendations. Think of it as the "UpToDate" of pharm. For an analogy that you may know, think of TurboTax software for doing your taxes.

I just hope somebody doesn't beat me to this idea, but somebody probably will. 🙁 Seriously, if someone sees that pharms can charge $140/hour for doing MTM x the number of pharms doing this nationwide, you start to see why somebody or some company would develop such a system. If I can see this, you can bet people who have more time and funds than I do see this too. The people in Silicon Valley drool over this stuff.
 
Anyone can do their own review on Drugs.com for free. The point of MTM is to aid in patient adherance to their physician prescribed therapy as well as doing drug monitoring. No computer will be able to monitor the patient like a person. Nor will anyone pay attention to a computer program. Unless you make some machine that can read A1C/cholesterol levels, take blood pressure, and looks like your mom, your quest is futile.