Multivitamins and you

[WVUPharm2007]

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Well yet another member of the senseless squad registers their confident ignorance. I used my sister's name LaShanda, as the reference identity, in a fictitious example. How on Earth you twisted that into Nazis and slave labor in Auschwitz, is really Freudian. No where in my example, using the name LaShanda, was it stated that she was an 'example of an idiot'. Can't you see that you are reading your ignorant stereotypes into the facts of the example? You are introducing, your ideas (incorrectly), onto the example. Another dangerous example of people misreading something, and declaring facts.

You're right, my intentional hyperbole was filled with hyperbole. I'm so dangerous. And, yes, its Freudian. I used to be a Nazi that worked at a concentration camp myself and I am subconsciously projecting. That must be it. Obviously that's the logical outcome one would have with that short paragraph. That totally makes sense and isn't patently ridiculous.

Then you bring it home with:
"vitamins are a waste of time and money for a typical person consuming a balanced diet or something close to it."
How much time are you estimating it takes to swallow a vitamin? One or two seconds.
How expensive are vitamins where you live? #365 Centrum are $19.95. That equals 0.05cents per day. Do you think that's going to break the bank of most American households.

I'll respond to this the way you respond to things. With a hilarious over-the-top reaction that goes nowhere.

It's still time and money. $19,95 is more than $0. And that $19.95 could be used to feed a village in Africa for a month. A MONTH. You are directly advocating a paradigm that leads to children in Africa dying of starvation.

Also, 1-2 seconds is clearly not enough time to take a vitamin. You have to open the bottle...and what if you have arthritis? You might take 10-15 seconds. Then you have to pour a glass of water. And with fresh water becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource, you are contributing to environmental harm. But this act itself takes a solid 10-15 seconds. Then you take the pill, a solid 5 seconds of place in mouth, raise glass, tilt glass, allow fluid to drop into the mouth using gravity, then, to be brief, use the musculature of the GI system to force the pill into the stomach where it will eventually be absorbed in the intestines.

Please share what parameters you are using to define the 'typical' person and 'something close to it'.

Most Americans. Obviously those with absorption disorders or the pregnant are excluded. But the pregnant only really need exogenous folic acid, so lets not pretend they count. And true absorption disorders are relatively rare.

Those are broad sweeping generalizations, based on your limited knowledge and experience.

Yeah, you're right. I don't have years of inpatient and outpatient experience. I just some dude that registered on this site like 10 years ago, then stumbled in today out of nowhere. I'm actually a plumber. Most of those thousands of posts are about football (actually, that's probably true...)

Try using that argument in a court room.

Yes. I'm in a court room now. Clearly. I see the jury over there in the corner. I tried to get that bastard that graduated from Pitt taken off, but it didn't work out.

The old "I feel' versus 'the facts' defense. Your statements are based in your ignorance and a dangerous overconfidence of your beliefs, not facts.

No, I'm pretty sure I can read general guideline statements from established, evidence-based medical organizations and journals rather well.

Learn to read what is stated. Not what you think is being stated.
We don't call my sister LaShanda, by her full name. We call her Shanda, for short. One can only imagine what mental corruption you must suffer from, to think so little of such a beautiful name. Sad.

Yeah, honestly, I don't believe you. I require evidence. I need a form of gov't ID. You probably don't have a sister. You might actually just be a sentient computer that got bored and decided to start trolling. That would be kinda cool. Like when we had an actual terrorist post on here a few months ago.

Or a human that decided to start trolling.

 

[miltonm]

Well yet another member of the senseless squad registers their confident ignorance. I used my sister's name LaShanda, as the reference identity, in a fictitious example. How on Earth you twisted that into Nazis and slave labor in Auschwitz, is really Freudian. No where in my example, using the name LaShanda, was it stated that she was an 'example of an idiot'. Can't you see that you are reading your ignorant stereotypes into the facts of the example? You are introducing, your ideas (incorrectly), onto the example. Another dangerous example of people misreading something, and declaring facts.
Then you bring it home with:
"vitamins are a waste of time and money for a typical person consuming a balanced diet or something close to it."
How much time are you estimating it takes to swallow a vitamin? One or two seconds.
How expensive are vitamins where you live? #365 Centrum are $19.95. That equals 0.05cents per day. Do you think that's going to break the bank of most American households.
Please share what parameters you are using to define the 'typical' person and 'something close to it'. Those are broad sweeping generalizations, based on your limited knowledge and experience. Try using that argument in a court room. The old "I feel' versus 'the facts' defense. Your statements are based in your ignorance and a dangerous overconfidence of your beliefs, not facts.

Learn to read what is stated. Not what you think is being stated.
We don't call my sister LaShanda, by her full name. We call her Shanda, for short. One can only imagine what mental corruption you must suffer from, to think so little of such a beautiful name. Sad.

I can't understand how the conversation got so low. I came here expecting to hear healthcare professionals discussing the biochemistry of how multivitamins do or do not provide nutrients to the individual, but instead I read a lot of bickering and misrepresentations of peoples' posts.

Would someone please enlighten me on the subject and explain how multivitamins fail to provide what they claim to provide, biochemically?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I can't understand how the conversation got so low. I came here expecting to hear healthcare professionals discussing the biochemistry of how multivitamins do or do not provide nutrients to the individual, but instead I read a lot of bickering and misrepresentations of peoples' posts.

Would someone please enlighten me on the subject and explain how multivitamins fail to provide what they claim to provide, biochemically?

How about you do your own research? We've got this wonderful thing called the internet that allows everyone to find information relatively quickly and easily.

I will say, as has been pointed out on this thread, that multivitamin supplementation in people who are not known to be deficient in any vitamins/minerals does not improve health or decrease disease.

 

[miltonm]

How about you do your own research? We've got this wonderful thing called the internet that allows everyone to find information relatively quickly and easily.

I will say, as has been pointed out on this thread, that multivitamin supplementation in people who are not known to be deficient in any vitamins/minerals does not improve health or decrease disease.

Internet, what's that? Does it blend?

And here I expected to carry a mature, scientific discussion with people who are well educated in the matter.

 

[Old Timer]

Well yet another member of the senseless squad registers their confident ignorance. I used my sister's name LaShanda, as the reference identity, in a fictitious example. How on Earth you twisted that into Nazis and slave labor in Auschwitz, is really Freudian. No where in my example, using the name LaShanda, was it stated that she was an 'example of an idiot'. Can't you see that you are reading your ignorant stereotypes into the facts of the example? You are introducing, your ideas (incorrectly), onto the example. Another dangerous example of people misreading something, and declaring facts.
Then you bring it home with:
"vitamins are a waste of time and money for a typical person consuming a balanced diet or something close to it."
How much time are you estimating it takes to swallow a vitamin? One or two seconds.
How expensive are vitamins where you live? #365 Centrum are $19.95. That equals 0.05cents per day. Do you think that's going to break the bank of most American households.
Please share what parameters you are using to define the 'typical' person and 'something close to it'. Those are broad sweeping generalizations, based on your limited knowledge and experience. Try using that argument in a court room. The old "I feel' versus 'the facts' defense. Your statements are based in your ignorance and a dangerous overconfidence of your beliefs, not facts.

Learn to read what is stated. Not what you think is being stated.
We don't call my sister LaShanda, by her full name. We call her Shanda, for short. One can only imagine what mental corruption you must suffer from, to think so little of such a beautiful name. Sad.

I can't understand how the conversation got so low. I came here expecting to hear healthcare professionals discussing the biochemistry of how multivitamins do or do not provide nutrients to the individual, but instead I read a lot of bickering and misrepresentations of peoples' posts.

Would someone please enlighten me on the subject and explain how multivitamins fail to provide what they claim to provide, biochemically?

It's really simple:

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WELL DONE SCIENTIFIC STUDY NOT FINANCED BY THE SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY THAT HAS EVER SHOWN ANY BENEFIT FROM TAKING DAILY MULTIPLE VITAMINS.
​

First: It does not matter what the biochemistry seems. It's what works and what does not.
Second: There is almost nobody who needs vitamins. There is not an epidemic of beriberi, ariboflavinosis, pernicious anemia or scurvy requiring supplementation with oral multivitamins.
Third: American is suffering an epidemic of obesity not of starvation. We are eating the wrong foods and there are no pills that can make up for it. Anyone who thinks you can make up eating from the dollar menu at Mickey D's with pills know nothing about human nutrition.

Taking multivitamins is waste of time and money. Until somebody shows me some scientific reason, I cannot in good conscience recommend them.

 

[Ackj]

Moreover, who do you (actually) know whose name begins with La- that isn't African American, Mormon, or over 75? I have a hard time believing you'd actually paint a profile of your "sister" in this manner unless you really didn't like her...or were just plain racist.

Know a few Larrys. Also know a Lafayette, but I believe he's Creole... not sure what bubble he fills out on the census. My friend dated a girl named Alana, but she went by Laney, so I'll count her.

But yeah, no way opinionfree's sister is named LaShanda. His brother D'brickashaw Barkevious is white though, really.

 

[waiter]

The latest Annals of Internal Medicine has two good articles on MVI. One article finding no cognitive benefit towards MVI supplementation for ~10 yrs+ in elderly male physicians. The other article finds minimal benefit of MVI in prevention of CVD and cancers with a gender effect and dose dependency favoring male subjects who use high dose MVI. This is the article which informs the USPSTF's neutral recommendation towards MVI.

 

[miltonm]

It's really simple:

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WELL DONE SCIENTIFIC STUDY NOT FINANCED BY THE SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY THAT HAS EVER SHOWN ANY BENEFIT FROM TAKING DAILY MULTIPLE VITAMINS.
​

First: It does not matter what the biochemistry seems. It's what works and what does not.
Second: There is almost nobody who needs vitamins. There is not an epidemic of beriberi, ariboflavinosis, pernicious anemia or scurvy requiring supplementation with oral multivitamins.
Third: American is suffering an epidemic of obesity not of starvation. We are eating the wrong foods and there are no pills that can make up for it. Anyone who thinks you can make up eating from the dollar menu at Mickey D's with pills know nothing about human nutrition.

Taking multivitamins is waste of time and money. Until somebody shows me some scientific reason, I cannot in good conscience recommend them.

I completely agree with point nbr. 3, and you seem to concur with the thought that multivitamins do provide nutrients and are beneficial when an important vitamin/mineral is absent from the diet.

Just remember that everything has a biochemical reason for working or not. If we don't know it to that level we are depending too much on luck to make decisions on what is good or bad for you. The vaccine controversy is a great example that comes to mind.

 

[Old Timer]

I completely agree with point nbr. 3, and you seem to concur with the thought that multivitamins do provide nutrients and are beneficial when an important vitamin/mineral is absent from the diet.

These cases are few and far between.

Just remember that everything has a biochemical reason for working or not. If we don't know it to that level we are depending too much on luck to make decisions on what is good or bad for you. The vaccine controversy is a great example that comes to mind.

No, you are wrong. You can't just take one biochemical reaction or event out of context with the entire organism. That's why the vaccine controversy isn't a controversy except in the head of nut bags.

 

[MountainPharmD]

It's really simple:

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE WELL DONE SCIENTIFIC STUDY NOT FINANCED BY THE SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY THAT HAS EVER SHOWN ANY BENEFIT FROM TAKING DAILY MULTIPLE VITAMINS.
​

But..but...my Aunt Susie's next door neighbor said her Uncle's second cousins friends Mom takes them and swears they work and have changed her life. Plus Dr Oz said they were good for you and he's like a real doctor on TV. What do you know your just a pharmacist...So shut up and ring up my $200 of multivitamins and supplements like bee pollen and horny goat weed while I bitch at you about my ridiculous $20 co-pay for a 90 supply of Nexium I take because all the supplements upset my stomach.

 

[miltonm]

These cases are few and far between.



No, you are wrong. You can't just take one biochemical reaction or event out of context with the entire organism. That's why the vaccine controversy isn't a controversy except in the head of nut bags.

K. Biochemistry play no role in the workings of human physiology.

 

[Old Timer]

K. Biochemistry play no role in the workings of human physiology.

Did you read what I said? I said you can't isolate one biochemical reaction and make a conclusion about what will happen.

Here are a set of facts:

1) High Cholesterol increases risk of heart attacks (True)
2) Statins lower cholesterol and reduce risks of heart attacks. True
3) Zetia lowers cholesterol. (True) and reduce risks of heart attacks. (False)

You would think knowing that 1 & 2 are both true that lowering cholesterol with Zetia would also decrease heart attacks and it turns out it doesn't There is some biochemistry behind it, but we have not yet figured out what that is. So just because people who consume tomatoes have lower risk for cancer due to it's lycopene content does not mean taking Lycopene pills will lower your risk of cancer. Because you need to look at the macro picture of the entire plant that is consumed and the organism that consumes it and not look at the micro biochemical reaction and extrapolate. Look at grass. People who use grass to relieve nausea from chemotherapy frequently complain that the THC pills do not work as well or at all while grass does. We know THC is the active ingredient. But you need to look at the effect on the organism at a macro level. When you look at a micro level you can miss other biochemical phenomenon that are playing a role.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Dude is so old, he calls it grass.

 

[Old Timer]

Dude is so old, he calls it grass.

To lazy to look how to spell it.....

 

[zelman]

Would someone please enlighten me on the subject and explain how multivitamins fail to provide what they claim to provide, biochemically?

They provide the listed contents. They do not diagnose, cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent diseases, and make no claims to do so.

 

[miltonm]

They provide the listed contents. They do not diagnose, cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent diseases, and make no claims to do so.

K, makes no sense, but thanks anyway.

 

[dmd20000]

I can't understand how the conversation got so low. I came here expecting to hear healthcare professionals discussing the biochemistry of how multivitamins do or do not provide nutrients to the individual, but instead I read a lot of bickering and misrepresentations of peoples' posts.

Would someone please enlighten me on the subject and explain how multivitamins fail to provide what they claim to provide, biochemically?

Certain vitamins in multivitamins such as vitamin B12 have problems reaching the blood. I know lots of people that tried the oral form of B12 (cyanocobalamin and methylcobalamin) and it didn't help them with their B12 deficiency. They also tried the sublingual form and it also failed.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Internet, what's that? Does it blend?

And here I expected to carry a mature, scientific discussion with people who are well educated in the matter.

No, you came here with an obvious agenda. It has been explained, multiple times, why things aren't the way you think they are and yet you refuse to listen.

 

[knight on horse]

Dumb thread

Of course multivitamins aren't fountain of youth pills. What they do is cover insufficiencies in the diet and lifestyle, and provide a quick boost in certain situations

 

[Momus]

I have a crappy diet. I eat meats + carbs + a teaspoon of metamucil every meal. I use multivitamin to complement the lack of vegetables. If you eat healthly, no reason to take multivitamins.

 

[PharMed2016]

Just remember that everything has a biochemical reason for working or not. If we don't know it to that level we are depending too much on luck to make decisions on what is good or bad for you.

Although that is quite a logical explanation, you'll find many times that something that should work based on the biochemical reasons* actually doesn't quite pan out in clinical practice. Hence the need for clinical trials which is another bag of worms in itself.

 

[Old Timer]

I have a crappy diet. I eat meats + carbs + a teaspoon of metamucil every meal. I use multivitamin to complement the lack of vegetables. If you eat healthly, no reason to take multivitamins.

Really, what in God's name are you lacking?

 

[miltonm]

No, you came here with an obvious agenda. It has been explained, multiple times, why things aren't the way you think they are and yet you refuse to listen.

Right, as a pre-med I have high hopes of forcing my 'agenda' on seasoned pharmacists and doctors. I like to learn, especially when something as 'obvious' as multivitamins = health benefits isn't as clear cut as it seems (same as with other topics).

In my understanding, your body can't tell the difference if a vitamin was artificially or naturally made. There is no measurable 'life force' that makes oranges better than a vit-c tablet in terms of that vitamin's benefit in the body. If it was absorbed, the effects will be the same. If that isn't true, then why isn't? Online searches yields shady webpages by people with questionable credentials, which is why I though here I would get a more scientific explanation on the matter.

 

[miltonm]

Although that is quite a logical explanation, you'll find many times that something that should work based on the biochemical reasons* actually doesn't quite pan out in clinical practice. Hence the need for clinical trials which is another bag of worms in itself.

True, I am well aware of that. The reason is due to other biochemical reactions that are not known as of yet or expected to participate in the reaction. The interplay between all of them is something very interesting to study, which is why I wish physiology introduced more chemistry in their teaching rather than only focusing on circles and squares with acronyms bumping each other to form new acronyms.

 

[Old Timer]

In my understanding, your body can't tell the difference if a vitamin was artificially or naturally made. There is no measurable 'life force' that makes oranges better than a vit-c tablet in terms of that vitamin's benefit in the body. If it was absorbed, the effects will be the same. If that isn't true, then why isn't? Online searches yields shady webpages by people with questionable credentials, which is why I though here I would get a more scientific explanation on the matter.

NOT TRUE. There is no study to backup what you say. There is a difference between eating an orange and taking a pill. If you have scurvy that's one thing. In treating a disease you need clinical proof. It is almost completely lacking for supplements.

You are making an assumption that is based on common sense and it is called correlation. But as you will find out, correlation is NOT causation. Let's go back to the cholesterol example. We know that people with elevated cholesterol have a higher incidence of heart attacks. People who take statins lower their cholesterol and also have lower incidence of hear attacks. Zetia lowers cholesterol. You would assume based on the earlier facts using common sense and correlation, that Zetia since it lowers cholesterol like statins would also reduce the incidence of heart attacks. It does NOT.

Now lets take our good friend the tomato. People who eat tomatoes have a lower incidence of some cancers. Most researchers believe this is due to lycopene. However, there is no proof that taking lycopene capsules even though the body does not know the difference lowers the incidence of cancer. Correlation is NOT causation.

Once you accept the fact that correlation is not causation you will understand what we have been trying to show you. It's not a simple isolated biochemical reaction. We are supposed to practice evidence based medicine. Right now the evidence for supplements is thin to non-existent. You keep looking at the MICRO, the individual biochemical reaction and you refuse to look at the MACRO, the entire organism. When you are a doctor you treat people not chemical reactions.

 

[miltonm]

NOT TRUE. There is no study to backup what you say. There is a difference between eating an orange and taking a pill. If you have scurvy that's one thing. In treating a disease you need clinical proof. It is almost completely lacking for supplements.

You are making an assumption that is based on common sense and it is called correlation. But as you will find out, correlation is NOT causation. Let's go back to the cholesterol example. We know that people with elevated cholesterol have a higher incidence of heart attacks. People who take statins lower their cholesterol and also have lower incidence of hear attacks. Zetia lowers cholesterol. You would assume based on the earlier facts using common sense and correlation, that Zetia since it lowers cholesterol like statins would also reduce the incidence of heart attacks. It does NOT.

Now lets take our good friend the tomato. People who eat tomatoes have a lower incidence of some cancers. Most researchers believe this is due to lycopene. However, there is no proof that taking lycopene capsules even though the body does not know the difference lowers the incidence of cancer. Correlation is NOT causation.

Once you accept the fact that correlation is not causation you will understand what we have been trying to show you. It's not a simple isolated biochemical reaction. We are supposed to practice evidence based medicine. Right now the evidence for supplements is thin to non-existent. You keep looking at the MICRO, the individual biochemical reaction and you refuse to look at the MACRO, the entire organism. When you are a doctor you treat people not chemical reactions.

Reread my post, because you didn't understand my point.

 

[Jibby321]

Wow have I been missing out by not reading this thread!