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my 3rdyr elective, quality of residents, PM&R competitiveness and other comments
- Thread starter jkso
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Welll I have decided to go into PMR, I unfortunately agree with your comments about both the residents and the perceived "competitiveness" of the field. I reinterate, if you are a good student from a top medical school (md) you will get into a good/top PMR residency program.
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so, lets see if i have this right
you won't tell us where you are refering to
you don't have a hidden agenda
and you think where you were is a good program, but you werent impressed
i believe any program could have this criticism levied, annoymously, without any ability to defend itself, espeicially when you tell me that you are a third year med student.
PM&R is a field with an inferiority complex, but is clearly getting much more competative, depsite what your uninformed impresssion is.
interventionists who are knowlegable (ie. members of ISIS) will tell you that anesthesiologists are far less specific in their choice of injection than are pm&r trained docs, in general (ie transforaminal vs interlaminar, series of three vs specific sites based on response). So whoever it is that told you that anesthesiologists are better trained was not only ill informed, he fed into a belief system you clearly already had.
so by all means, go do something else ... I personally like our field, can tell you that there are extrordinarily bright people involved in it (jay smith, curtis slipman, joel press, daniel dumitru, david burke, david cifu, almost anyone at U of W, etc, etc, etc)
are some programs better than others? absolutely. are some places where the rest of the training is strong surprisingly weak in pm&r? you bet. does that make us different from any other field? i don't think so.
ours is a field growing by leaps and bounds. do we have some goof balls who are senior docs? sure. does ortho, and neurosurgery, and derm, and any other highly competative field? you bet they do.
so bash all you like. I think this is a field that is up and coming, attracting some of the brightest residents i have come across, and one of the best choices i made in live. not for you? then i wish you well.
you won't tell us where you are refering to
you don't have a hidden agenda
and you think where you were is a good program, but you werent impressed
i believe any program could have this criticism levied, annoymously, without any ability to defend itself, espeicially when you tell me that you are a third year med student.
PM&R is a field with an inferiority complex, but is clearly getting much more competative, depsite what your uninformed impresssion is.
interventionists who are knowlegable (ie. members of ISIS) will tell you that anesthesiologists are far less specific in their choice of injection than are pm&r trained docs, in general (ie transforaminal vs interlaminar, series of three vs specific sites based on response). So whoever it is that told you that anesthesiologists are better trained was not only ill informed, he fed into a belief system you clearly already had.
so by all means, go do something else ... I personally like our field, can tell you that there are extrordinarily bright people involved in it (jay smith, curtis slipman, joel press, daniel dumitru, david burke, david cifu, almost anyone at U of W, etc, etc, etc)
are some programs better than others? absolutely. are some places where the rest of the training is strong surprisingly weak in pm&r? you bet. does that make us different from any other field? i don't think so.
ours is a field growing by leaps and bounds. do we have some goof balls who are senior docs? sure. does ortho, and neurosurgery, and derm, and any other highly competative field? you bet they do.
so bash all you like. I think this is a field that is up and coming, attracting some of the brightest residents i have come across, and one of the best choices i made in live. not for you? then i wish you well.
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Jkso,
If you did your PM&R elective at the same institution your ISP address is from I wouldn't necessarily consider that a "top school" nor a "top program." I don't think that your program has ever been ranked in USNWR nor do I hear it referred to often in PM&R circles. It certainly used to be a very good program, but I think it has gotten a little "stale" in recent years. There are several other programs in your metropolitan area and maybe you rotated at one of those.
In any event, SDN has always promoted open dialogue and healthy debate and I encourage you to post your opinions freely. I don't think that you'll injure the feelings of the residents that you worked with (I mean come on!) and certainly nothing you post could worse than what's posted in any of the "DO vs MD" or "Why Caribbean Medical Schools Suck" threads daily on this board. Moreover, many of the people reading here might find your opinions genuinely helpful and insightful if you were to be specific and diplomatic about your experiences at specific programs. That said, there are a couple misconceptions that should be cleared. At the end of day, everyone realizes what this board is for what it is--an ANONYMOUS forum to discuss a variety of medical and health care related educational issues.
1) PM&R is objectively getting more competitive every year. The applications continue to rise and this last match a vast majority programs report filling without difficulty. At those programs traditionally recognized as "elite" in the field, most did not have to go too far down their rank lists. Several factors are driving this trend including increasing burden of chronic disease, desirability of "controllable lifestyle", interests in musculoskeletal/sports medicine just to name a few...
2) PM&R is increasingly seen as "separate but equal" to anesthesia-based training experiences for pain management. As has been debated here ad nauseum, each brings something different to the endeavor. Yes, some of the older anesthesiologists still see PM&R as the new kid on the block, but believe me, the field has sunk its teeth in...
If you did your PM&R elective at the same institution your ISP address is from I wouldn't necessarily consider that a "top school" nor a "top program." I don't think that your program has ever been ranked in USNWR nor do I hear it referred to often in PM&R circles. It certainly used to be a very good program, but I think it has gotten a little "stale" in recent years. There are several other programs in your metropolitan area and maybe you rotated at one of those.
In any event, SDN has always promoted open dialogue and healthy debate and I encourage you to post your opinions freely. I don't think that you'll injure the feelings of the residents that you worked with (I mean come on!) and certainly nothing you post could worse than what's posted in any of the "DO vs MD" or "Why Caribbean Medical Schools Suck" threads daily on this board. Moreover, many of the people reading here might find your opinions genuinely helpful and insightful if you were to be specific and diplomatic about your experiences at specific programs. That said, there are a couple misconceptions that should be cleared. At the end of day, everyone realizes what this board is for what it is--an ANONYMOUS forum to discuss a variety of medical and health care related educational issues.
1) PM&R is objectively getting more competitive every year. The applications continue to rise and this last match a vast majority programs report filling without difficulty. At those programs traditionally recognized as "elite" in the field, most did not have to go too far down their rank lists. Several factors are driving this trend including increasing burden of chronic disease, desirability of "controllable lifestyle", interests in musculoskeletal/sports medicine just to name a few...
2) PM&R is increasingly seen as "separate but equal" to anesthesia-based training experiences for pain management. As has been debated here ad nauseum, each brings something different to the endeavor. Yes, some of the older anesthesiologists still see PM&R as the new kid on the block, but believe me, the field has sunk its teeth in...
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No no, let me be clear - I get it, I just think it is cowardly to not list the name of the program you are using to smear the entire field. Oh, and hell yes, I take it personally - I chose the field of PM&R, and will be seen as a PM&R doc for the remainder of my career. So when you chose to act in a less than professional manner, and couch your criticism as a means by which to "protect" the program, what you have done instead, is to damn all residents, and by extension, all practicioners physiatry, rather than the few people you came into direct contact with.
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I just wanted to make a comment in regard to the inital post. Rehab is and has changed in the quality of applicants over the past 2 years. In my program, the resident come from excellent programs. We have no FMIG's that matched in the last 2 years. There is only 1 DO in the program and that resident matched a few years ago.
I know the residents who matched into my program this year was outstanding and has a passion for rehab.
I think several years ago, your statement was true about residents being lazy and not bright but now I think that has change. We are the new group of residents and future rehab docs who are NOT lazy and who are bright.
I know many residents including myself who have a great passion for the field and I believe that we are raising the bar so that we continue to attract stronger residents. In the future I believe the applicant pool WILL get more competive and the lazy and less bright residents will get squeezed out. At my school we actually had people who had MD/PH.D's applying to the program.
I know the residents who matched into my program this year was outstanding and has a passion for rehab.
I think several years ago, your statement was true about residents being lazy and not bright but now I think that has change. We are the new group of residents and future rehab docs who are NOT lazy and who are bright.
I know many residents including myself who have a great passion for the field and I believe that we are raising the bar so that we continue to attract stronger residents. In the future I believe the applicant pool WILL get more competive and the lazy and less bright residents will get squeezed out. At my school we actually had people who had MD/PH.D's applying to the program.
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Get those DO's outta there. They'll drag the quality of the program into the gutter.
Ahh I love generalizations. They are the foundation of the almighty medical bias which is so pervasive on SDN.
To the OP. Rotate somewhere else and see what its like.
Ahh I love generalizations. They are the foundation of the almighty medical bias which is so pervasive on SDN.
To the OP. Rotate somewhere else and see what its like.
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Let's try this one more time
When you disparage the quality of the residents in ONE program and IDENTIFY the program, you give them the opportunity to defend themselves, or acknowledge their shortcomings. When you HIDE the identity of that program, what you do is demean the quality of all residents, as anyone of us could be amongst those you are demeaning. As well, when you demean PM&R on a board entitled Student Doctor, you are not likely to have residents as your target audience. but rather FUTURE residents (ie. potential applicants), and as such, you harm the future of the field
I find it interesting that you go from good/excellent program (perhaps top in a major city) in your first post to "one of the better" programs to "good" program" in your most recent post. Seems to me you are scaling back your own rhetoric.
Based on how drusso characterized the program's IP you hale from, it certainly SOUNDS like NYU. Now I am not saying it is, but if it is, that program has been variously characterized as malignant, residents are overworked, cover a huge in-house population, have very few ancillary services, and an attending staff that is distant and unapproachable. Kessler, Columbia/Cornell, JFK, and Mt. Sinai are clearly better programs, although only Kessler is a top 10 program.
As for unprofessional, I stand by that characterization - it is unprofessional to disparage the entire field of PM&R, call us dummies, and then not give us the chance to respond to such baseless charges by hiding behind not only the anonymity of the forum, but by keeping the identity of the program a secret. Professionalism implies fairness, which your post was not. Professionalism implies competence, and the average third year med student is not arrogant enough to claim competence to asses the entire field. Professionalism implies modesty, and demeaning the residents you work with clearly belies your lack of anything resembling a humble disposition.
You are right, I have had enough of this. Allowing your unreasonable characterization of PM&R residents, without facts, or the courtesy of allowing them to defend themselves is the basic point I wanted to bring out. If you get that that is what you did, great. If not, I wish you well, and pity your future fellow residents, and future patients.
When you disparage the quality of the residents in ONE program and IDENTIFY the program, you give them the opportunity to defend themselves, or acknowledge their shortcomings. When you HIDE the identity of that program, what you do is demean the quality of all residents, as anyone of us could be amongst those you are demeaning. As well, when you demean PM&R on a board entitled Student Doctor, you are not likely to have residents as your target audience. but rather FUTURE residents (ie. potential applicants), and as such, you harm the future of the field
I find it interesting that you go from good/excellent program (perhaps top in a major city) in your first post to "one of the better" programs to "good" program" in your most recent post. Seems to me you are scaling back your own rhetoric.
Based on how drusso characterized the program's IP you hale from, it certainly SOUNDS like NYU. Now I am not saying it is, but if it is, that program has been variously characterized as malignant, residents are overworked, cover a huge in-house population, have very few ancillary services, and an attending staff that is distant and unapproachable. Kessler, Columbia/Cornell, JFK, and Mt. Sinai are clearly better programs, although only Kessler is a top 10 program.
As for unprofessional, I stand by that characterization - it is unprofessional to disparage the entire field of PM&R, call us dummies, and then not give us the chance to respond to such baseless charges by hiding behind not only the anonymity of the forum, but by keeping the identity of the program a secret. Professionalism implies fairness, which your post was not. Professionalism implies competence, and the average third year med student is not arrogant enough to claim competence to asses the entire field. Professionalism implies modesty, and demeaning the residents you work with clearly belies your lack of anything resembling a humble disposition.
You are right, I have had enough of this. Allowing your unreasonable characterization of PM&R residents, without facts, or the courtesy of allowing them to defend themselves is the basic point I wanted to bring out. If you get that that is what you did, great. If not, I wish you well, and pity your future fellow residents, and future patients.
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I guess as a future PM&R resident and as someone who actually most recently went through the application process, I can tell you that the field is indeed getting more competitive. (not to mention the increasing fill rate) I'm not sure if you posted your post because you were starting to feel insecure about your own application or you wanted to refute the fact that the field is getting more competitive. Whichever way, I don't think you really accomplished what you set out to do. Since you are an avid reader of this forum, I'm sure you have read many of the posts about various top and mid-tier residency programs in PM&R. I have also posted about the quality of applicants I have met on the trail. There were students who were AOA, from Ivy League schools, had very high board scores, and had several publications, etc. I think the twist and the unfortunate factor for you, is that many PDs actually look more deeply into applications than some other fields which may only look at numbers and rankings. They also seem to put a huge emphasis on the interviews and LORs. Because PM&R is so team oriented and focused on quality of life of the patient, many PDs told me that they would rather have a average med student with great interpersonal skills than an Ivy League grad with an arrogant attitude. (One PD actually said she chose an IMG over a Harvard Med grad for an empty non-Match slot because of that very reason.) I think when we were saying the field was getting more "competitive", you may have misunderstood it to mean that the field was turning into Ortho or Derm. Perhaps "selective" is a better word - since PDs said that they could be "pickier" with their selection this year.
I rotated at two outside PM&R programs and met lots of residents at the AAPMR meeting. I interviewed at many programs all over the country because I did not limit myself to a geographical area. It's truly a shame that you are basing your opinion on the field of PM&R as a whole on your experience at only one program. You may also want to consider the compatibility of your personality with the field. Physiatrists have to be team players, non-judgemental, humble, and patient. Since you were quick to judge, and pretty harsh in your criticism of the residents at your program, unless you are a good actor, it would be difficult for you to get along with your future colleagues. It is also interesting that you base your assessment on where these residents went to med school, and how hard you THINK they worked in med school. I went to an Ivy League undergrad and a state medical school - and believe me, most of the top students I met at both institutions (and I am not claiming to be one of them) never seem to feel the need to assert that they went to a "top program".
I think your original post sounded sincere enough - and that's why I even felt it deserved a response. If you have read the posts on this forum, you should know that no one on this forum is going to "sell" you the field.
Also, by trying so hard to stay anonymous, you are missing out on one of the best benefits of this forum. The spirit of this forum is to share useful information with others. For me, this forum was a great way to share and receive information about various residency programs. As we all got a good "feel" of each other, many of us pm-ed each other, and actually came out of our anonymous shells to converse about the process. I have been able to make many friends and meet many of my future colleagues because of this forum. It's been great to have a "contact" at many of the programs I got invited to interview. This forum is just like the real world. You have to earn respect and trust. If you are indeed sincere about your interest in the field, and are truly considering PM&R as a career choice, you may want to reconsider the way you utilize this forum.
Anyways, I hope you will rotate at other top PM&R programs and get exposed to the rich diversity of this field. The "competitiveness" of the field really is a non-issue for most qualified applicants. Like you said, there are many mid-tier programs that you and others will have no problems getting into. It really would be a shame if you get discouraged because of your limited experience with the field. On the other hand, since you are only a 3rd year, you still do have time to explore other career options. I hope this is helpful.
I rotated at two outside PM&R programs and met lots of residents at the AAPMR meeting. I interviewed at many programs all over the country because I did not limit myself to a geographical area. It's truly a shame that you are basing your opinion on the field of PM&R as a whole on your experience at only one program. You may also want to consider the compatibility of your personality with the field. Physiatrists have to be team players, non-judgemental, humble, and patient. Since you were quick to judge, and pretty harsh in your criticism of the residents at your program, unless you are a good actor, it would be difficult for you to get along with your future colleagues. It is also interesting that you base your assessment on where these residents went to med school, and how hard you THINK they worked in med school. I went to an Ivy League undergrad and a state medical school - and believe me, most of the top students I met at both institutions (and I am not claiming to be one of them) never seem to feel the need to assert that they went to a "top program".
I think your original post sounded sincere enough - and that's why I even felt it deserved a response. If you have read the posts on this forum, you should know that no one on this forum is going to "sell" you the field.
Also, by trying so hard to stay anonymous, you are missing out on one of the best benefits of this forum. The spirit of this forum is to share useful information with others. For me, this forum was a great way to share and receive information about various residency programs. As we all got a good "feel" of each other, many of us pm-ed each other, and actually came out of our anonymous shells to converse about the process. I have been able to make many friends and meet many of my future colleagues because of this forum. It's been great to have a "contact" at many of the programs I got invited to interview. This forum is just like the real world. You have to earn respect and trust. If you are indeed sincere about your interest in the field, and are truly considering PM&R as a career choice, you may want to reconsider the way you utilize this forum.
Anyways, I hope you will rotate at other top PM&R programs and get exposed to the rich diversity of this field. The "competitiveness" of the field really is a non-issue for most qualified applicants. Like you said, there are many mid-tier programs that you and others will have no problems getting into. It really would be a shame if you get discouraged because of your limited experience with the field. On the other hand, since you are only a 3rd year, you still do have time to explore other career options. I hope this is helpful.
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VentdependenT said:
I agree Vent. It is the usual immature generalizations about DOs vs. MDs vs. FMGs. That is an all-tiime SDN favorite that never gets tiresome. JKSO, be staying so anonymous you are really doing a disservice to future applicants on this forums. We all like to hear the positives and negatives about a program. If the program is NYU, we all know how malignant the program really is. Try rotating at another program. PM&R has a very different attitude compared to a field like ortho. If you are an ortho-wannabe, PM&R may attract you but there many facets within the field that makes it so different, especially when it comes the team-approach. The field has gotten more selective in picking quality applicants (i.e. not just grades and where you went to school).
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Mmmm. Flames! It's what cooks my BBQ dinners! 
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Wow... real true-life MD/PhDs. That is so cool. They were breathing and talking and were really truly MD/PhDs, and not any of dem der osteopath guys. WOW. On the up and up is right.marathon chick said:I just wanted to make a comment in regard to the inital post. Rehab is and has changed in the quality of applicants over the past 2 years. In my program, the resident come from excellent programs. We have no FMIG's that matched in the last 2 years. There is only 1 DO in the program and that resident matched a few years ago.
I know the residents who matched into my program this year was outstanding and has a passion for rehab.
I think several years ago, your statement was true about residents being lazy and not bright but now I think that has change. We are the new group of residents and future rehab docs who are NOT lazy and who are bright.
I know many residents including myself who have a great passion for the field and I believe that we are raising the bar so that we continue to attract stronger residents. In the future I believe the applicant pool WILL get more competive and the lazy and less bright residents will get squeezed out. At my school we actually had people who had MD/PH.D's applying to the program.
If anyone has questions about the following programs, please private mail me-I have transferred programs and worked as a med student, resident, fellow and attending at these programs:columbia/cornell(resident and attending), mount sinai(fellow and attending), rusk(resident and fellow). Although I no longer work in the rehab dept in the main hospitals anymore, I still am affiliated with one of these programs currently, and i still feel like i am in the twilight zone when I tried to bring up issues about how education can be improved, so I sympathize with those of you who have questions about properly investing 3 years of your lives. For me it has been a painful process trying to get the kind of education I was used to in college and med school, and if I did not have the stability of my med school, people in the neurology dept and the pediatrics depts, I dont know if i would still be practicing rehab.
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marathon chick said:I just wanted to make a comment in regard to the inital post. Rehab is and has changed in the quality of applicants over the past 2 years. In my program, the resident come from excellent programs. We have no FMIG's that matched in the last 2 years. There is only 1 DO in the program and that resident matched a few years ago.
I know the residents who matched into my program this year was outstanding and has a passion for rehab.
I think several years ago, your statement was true about residents being lazy and not bright but now I think that has change. We are the new group of residents and future rehab docs who are NOT lazy and who are bright.
I know many residents including myself who have a great passion for the field and I believe that we are raising the bar so that we continue to attract stronger residents. In the future I believe the applicant pool WILL get more competive and the lazy and less bright residents will get squeezed out. At my school we actually had people who had MD/PH.D's applying to the program.
I assume that we DOs can't raise the bar either
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Cmon Vlad, dont you know, as per quackwatch, the very best DO can at times be somewhat competent.
we are osteoquacks....well you are anyway, im still half of one
🙄
we are osteoquacks....well you are anyway, im still half of one
🙄
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Why are we getting into the DO v MD thing again? Shouldn't we have gotten over this when we were pre-MD/DOs?
🙄
My class has 3 DOs, and one of our best attendings is a DO. Can't we all just get along?
🙄
My class has 3 DOs, and one of our best attendings is a DO. Can't we all just get along?
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BrooklynDO said:
I know BrooklynDO 😀 . My osteoquackery will help raise the PM&R bar higher. You only have 3 more years to become a full-fledged osteoquack, Mr. OMM Fellow 😀 . Seriously though, I just wanted to bust on Marathon Chick's chops. Her comments just had to much room to have fun with it 😛 . No harm intended.
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drvlad2004 said:
yea us fellows should get our degree early, or some honorary degree, maybe an MD?
oh and if anyone doesnt get it, im joking... and not trying to offend anyone
😛
back to cracking on the uslme
Glad to see censorship is alive in this forum!
The OP was only expressing his own views and was basically attacked & badgered mercilessly. Don't agree with PMR gurus, Off with your head! Say something unpopular, eat them alive! 😱
The OP was only expressing his own views and was basically attacked & badgered mercilessly. Don't agree with PMR gurus, Off with your head! Say something unpopular, eat them alive! 😱
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TripleH said:
this is a quote from somewhere, and i cant remember where...anyway a dragon is speaking :
"Talk carefully, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
😀 😛
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TripleH said:
The original poster removed his own post after PM-'ing me. He was concerned that his comments were being taken out of context and the larger point(s) he was trying to make. This was not a censorhip issue.
