My first lap appe

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sponch

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I lost my lap appe cherry today. It went OK, I guess. I was awkward and felt like a klutz. Just like the first time with...other things. :D Any interns out there feel me on this?

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lap appy is a tough case for an intern.

Whats up with it being Oct 12 and you just now doing an appy? Are your seniors stealing intern cases?
 
Are you guys serious about lap appe done by interns so early? Not in my program.:mad:
 
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Nor here.

Quite a few open appys and two lap choles by this time during my intern year, IIRC.
 
Hell, I haven't even put a central line in yet.
 
I didn't do my first lap appy until the start of my PGY2 year.
 
Nor here.

Quite a few open appys and two lap choles by this time during my intern year, IIRC.
Sucks for me. I'll probably never have the opportunity to do an open appy seeing as how im only 16 right now. Lap appys will probably be replaced by something less interactive by then, even.
 
I'm an intern. I did a small umbilical hernia yesterday. It should have taken 5 minutes, but took me 45 (very cool attending, and patient staff BTW). It's frustrating because I generally knew what I wanted to do, but I struggled a bit making it happen. Sort of like watching my kids learn how to walk.

No lap appy yet for me either.
 
Sucks for me. I'll probably never have the opportunity to do an open appy seeing as how im only 16 right now. Lap appys will probably be replaced by something less interactive by then, even.

Why so anxious to do an open appy? And what do you mean by "interactive"? :confused: I don't think that they'll have developed "psychic surgery" by the time you actually graduate from med school.

If you really like open procedures, think about OB/gyn. No such thing as a laproscopic c-section! ;) (Yet.)
 
Are you guys serious about lap appe done by interns so early? Not in my program.:mad:

I've done a grand total of 4 cases so far this year.

I don't mind being in a top heavy program. What really gets to me are the attendings who would rather operate with the PA and have the intern stay on the floor. :thumbdown: Not cool.
 
Thank you all! This thread makes me feel so much better--I have been fumbling through cases thinking I will NEVER be good at this; at least I am not alone!
 
In 10 years (when you're finishing med school), NOTES may be pretty commonplace.

Or it might be non-existent because it has an unacceptable complication rate.

Laparoscopy and other technologies are just a tool in the surgeon's tool bag. Open surgery will never be completely replaced.
 
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Laparoscopy and other technologies are just a tool in the surgeon's tool bag.

Or, as they LOVE to say in conferences, "it's part of the surgeon's armamentarium." Gosh they love that word, "armamentarium." :)
 
lap appy is a tough case for an intern.

Whats up with it being Oct 12 and you just now doing an appy? Are your seniors stealing intern cases?

Are you guys serious about lap appe done by interns so early? Not in my program.:mad:

Everyone's experience is different, with some places that see lap appendectomies as an intern-level case, and others viewing it as a laparoscopic and thus upper-level case. Hopefully, after five years, we're all proficient doing them......

I did alot of lap appies and lap choles as an intern, but I didn't do any thyroids, very few colons, zero lap colons, etc. I think it's a function of what your program has an abundance of, and what the upper levels want to be doing.
 
Funny. In my program and where I went to med school, anything laparoscopic was PGY-3 or higher.

How do you interns out there who are doing lap choles do them (what instruments are in your hands during the case)?

I've seen interns in other programs in the area do lap choles and typically it's the attending on the patient's right with two graspers in the subcostal ports, manipulating the gall bladder, and the intern, on the patient's left, who's got the hook cautery in one hand and the scope in the other.

Our interns are typically relegated to lumps, bumps, and uncomplicated hernias and holding hook for me. :)
 
I've seen interns in other programs in the area do lap choles and typically it's the attending on the patient's right with two graspers in the subcostal ports, manipulating the gall bladder, and the intern, on the patient's left, who's got the hook cautery in one hand and the scope in the other.

That was exactly how I learned it as a junior resident and never saw it done any other way until I was more senior and one of the attendings at a community hospital wanted to know why I wasn't doing the lap chole "the right way". D'oh you mean you want me to manipulate the gallbladder AND take it out?:laugh:
 
Funny. In my program and where I went to med school, anything laparoscopic was PGY-3 or higher.

How do you interns out there who are doing lap choles do them (what instruments are in your hands during the case)?

I've seen interns in other programs in the area do lap choles and typically it's the attending on the patient's right with two graspers in the subcostal ports, manipulating the gall bladder, and the intern, on the patient's left, who's got the hook cautery in one hand and the scope in the other.

Our interns are typically relegated to lumps, bumps, and uncomplicated hernias and holding hook for me. :)

I'm 4 months into my PGY-2 year, so this may affect my experience, but typically when I do a lap chole, I am on the patient's left, place the veress or use an open technique, place the midline ports, then the attending places the right sided ports, then the attending retracts the fundus.

Some attendings retract the infundibulum as well while I do camera and electrocautery.

Others run the camera while I have forceps in the left hand and cautery in the right. Other times, the med student drives the camera.

Honestly, I don't see how one way demands more skill than the other. I don't have any problems retracting and burning at the same time. You act like "manipulating the gallbladder" is a big deal. It's a relatively static process during the critical portions of the case (being attaining the critical view and dissecting out the duct and artery).

At the beginning of intern year, before we have experience, we are on the patient's right, and we "manipulate the gallbladder" while the attending drives and burns. I guess we're working backwards here......
 
I also stand on the patient's left, and have gallbladder retraction with my left hand, and Marylands/hook cautery with my right. The left hand is more active than you'd think - retraction and tension are key!
 
Honestly, I don't see how one way demands more skill than the other. I don't have any problems retracting and burning at the same time. You act like "manipulating the gallbladder" is a big deal. It's a relatively static process during the critical portions of the case (being attaining the critical view and dissecting out the duct and artery).

Your left hand (the grasper hand) is the entire key to performing a lap chole, knowing how to retract/manipulate the gall bladder so that you can see where the hook is going to go.

It actually is a big deal and translates to your ability to do advanced laparoscopy. If it doesn't seem like a big deal, either you're a super-star PGY 2 surgical resident (Kuods!) or your attendings are moving the fundus about while your left hand is "static."
 
I agree with the above two posts from more senior residents...it is key to learn how to do your own manipulation of the organ while removing it.

This is a much more difficult technique to learn than driving the camera and vitally important should you ever find yourself in a situation without an assistant. A scrub nurse can run the camera with a modicum of success; he/she will not be able to manipulate the gallbladder nearly as well.

In addition to the above, it is much easier to move the organ yourself to facilitate exposure than it is to teach someone to do it for you/read your mind.
 
Your left hand (the grasper hand) is the entire key to performing a lap chole, knowing how to retract/manipulate the gall bladder so that you can see where the hook is going to go.

It actually is a big deal and translates to your ability to do advanced laparoscopy. If it doesn't seem like a big deal, either you're a super-star PGY 2 surgical resident (Kuods!) or your attendings are moving the fundus about while your left hand is "static."

I disagree. There are alot of other ways to manipulate the gallbladder and enhance visibility without moving your left hand. Being good with the 30 degree camera, for one, is key to having good visibility. Knowing how to manipulate the hook in an effective, safe manner seems equally as important.

As for the retraction on the infundibulum, you can only pull it in so many directions. And when I do the case, the fundus remains static during the critical portion of the case, retracted over the dome of the liver. I've done the surgery both ways multiple times (left hand on the camera, and left hand manipulating the gallbladder), and I honestly don't see a big difference in the level of difficulty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think knowing how to retract is the key to "advanced laparoscopy." The only exception is possibly when the attending prefers the "dome down" approach. I do find the retraction somewhat more difficult in that case.

Don't get me wrong: I am not an expert at lap choles, and I am most certainly not an expert of advanced laparoscopy. If you read my first post in this thread, you can see that I also didn't come here to brag about my experience. However, I've done a lot of them, both as a first assistant, and as a junior surgeon. I've been on both sides of the table, had all the different instruments in my hand, and seen multiple different approaches to yanking out gallbags.

That is because I am at a community program, and no gallbladder is safe in private practice, especially the healthy ones. And I can't help but take a little offense when you insinuate that any intern doing the case is either some ridiculous phenom, or is unknowingly being piggy-backed through the entire case by the attending.

Maybe being good at gallbladders makes you a PGY-2 phenom in New York, but it is par for the course in Wichita. Not because we're better surgeons, but because our caseload is very different than yours. Your experience is obviously different, but please don't assume that the way your institution does things is the only way.
 
I disagree. There are alot of other ways to manipulate the gallbladder and enhance visibility without moving your left hand. Being good with the 30 degree camera, for one, is key to having good visibility. Knowing how to manipulate the hook in an effective, safe manner seems equally as important.

As for the retraction on the infundibulum, you can only pull it in so many directions. And when I do the case, the fundus remains static during the critical portion of the case, retracted over the dome of the liver. I've done the surgery both ways multiple times (left hand on the camera, and left hand manipulating the gallbladder), and I honestly don't see a big difference in the level of difficulty.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think knowing how to retract is the key to "advanced laparoscopy." The only exception is possibly when the attending prefers the "dome down" approach. I do find the retraction somewhat more difficult in that case.

Don't get me wrong: I am not an expert at lap choles, and I am most certainly not an expert of advanced laparoscopy. If you read my first post in this thread, you can see that I also didn't come here to brag about my experience. However, I've done a lot of them, both as a first assistant, and as a junior surgeon. I've been on both sides of the table, had all the different instruments in my hand, and seen multiple different approaches to yanking out gallbags.

That is because I am at a community program, and no gallbladder is safe in private practice, especially the healthy ones. And I can't help but take a little offense when you insinuate that any intern doing the case is either some ridiculous phenom, or is unknowingly being piggy-backed through the entire case by the attending.

Maybe being good at gallbladders makes you a PGY-2 phenom in New York, but it is par for the course in Wichita. Not because we're better surgeons, but because our caseload is very different than yours. Your experience is obviously different, but please don't assume that the way your institution does things is the only way.

Operating is about retracting to help you discern the correct tissue planes and to allow a proper dissection. Without good retraction, you can't possibly operate safely or effectively. That's really my point and it's one that usually is lost on the juniors who think operating is all about who gets command of the electrocautery device.

So when I was curious as to how interns and, in your case, PGY 2s across the country were doing lap choles, I was pleased to hear that you've done them with a grasper in your left hand (presumably) in the R subcostal, midclavicular port and the electrocautery in your right hand through the sub-xiphoid port. It's great training for the more advanced stuff when you need both your hands to work in concert with the assistant, and the muscle memory involved in how hard to pull on stuff (with your left hand) to get the planes exposed will be the key to getting the operation done safely and without too many risks.

What I was a little surprised with was your belief that it doesn't take much more skill to operate with both hands as opposed to having your assistant (in most cases I'll assume an attending) hold both graspers and you've got a camera in your left hand. It may not for you, but when I transitioned from my internship to my more senior levels of residency my colleagues and I found it hard to operate with both hands laparoscopically. It takes some getting used to become facile with tension on the left hand and exposing the appropriate tissue planes. But that's just me.

There may be more than a few ways to skin a cat, true, but there are only a few ways that are considered safe and standard of practice. I'm in my Chief Resident year at a community program as well and, I agree, no gall bladder is safe in the community setting. With over 250 lap choles logged (as surgeon junior and TA) I've been instructed on a variety of ways to take it out, but only a few are accepted and considered standard.

Hell, I've seen cases where while doing my regular thing the attending blurted, "What the f___ is this nonsense?" asked for a stone grabbing forceps and shoved it into a plane between the liver bed and the gall bladder, twisted it around a few times, and basically ripped it out of the liver. He got the job done, sure, but that's damn dangerous. Or the other attending who decided dissecting in Calot's triangle was way too dangerous and the risk of injuring the CBD too great, so he routinely amputated the gall bladder at the infundibulum and tied off the remainder of Hartman's pouch leaving a little gall bladder stump. Now that's just criminal.

I apologize if you took such great offense to my earlier comments. But in all seriousness you should be a little more open to suggestions from some of us who have "been there, done that" a few hundred times more.

Good luck.
 
Why so anxious to do an open appy? And what do you mean by "interactive"? :confused: I don't think that they'll have developed "psychic surgery" by the time you actually graduate from med school.

If you really like open procedures, think about OB/gyn. No such thing as a laproscopic c-section! ;) (Yet.)
The 3 surgical specialties I'm not sure i want to pursue are plastics, OB/GYN and orthopedics. I've never done ANY prodecure yet lol, but it seems like an open procedure would be alot easier to do, and would probably help you learn a bit better.
 
I apologize if you took such great offense to my earlier comments. But in all seriousness you should be a little more open to suggestions from some of us who have "been there, done that" a few hundred times more.

Good luck.

I definitely respect your input. I think I misinterpreted genuine curiosity for condescension regarding junior residents. When I thought you were labeling us all as naive, I felt compelled to come to the defense of myself and my co-juniors.

When it comes specifically to lap choles, I haven't found it more difficult to retract with the left and burn with the right, but maybe I will find this to be the case on some of the really nasty gallbags in the future.

I give other SDNers crap whenever I think they spaz out over other posts and get their panties in a bunch.....maybe I should take some of my own advice.
 
We do lap GB both ways here as Jr residents. It's attending dependant.

To me, driving the camera and dissecting is much harder than using both hands to dissect.

That's likely because I get motion sick really easily and I make myself sick driving the camera LOL.

Another reason is that to me it's easier to "feel" and see where the tension is while using both hands than to just "see" where the tension is when you don't have the other grasper. It's just more natural to be retracting and dissecting.

Of course doing it both ways can lead to forgetting that you have the grasper instead of the camera and wondering why your retraction stinks. OOPS:idea:
 
The 3 surgical specialties I'm not sure i want to pursue are plastics, OB/GYN and orthopedics.

Last I checked, both Plastics and Ortho were considered surgical subspecialties and they're both eligible for Fellowship in the American College of Surgeons. Heck, even Ophthalmologists are considered surgeons (of some sort)!

OB/GYN? Not invited. If you've seen one of those ladies "operate" and watch a surgeon go at it, you'll see a difference (hint: we know what the hell we're doing).

Please refrain from offending the surgical community here on SDN. That's just not nice. :)
 
I definitely respect your input. I think I misinterpreted genuine curiosity for condescension regarding junior residents. When I thought you were labeling us all as naive, I felt compelled to come to the defense of myself and my co-juniors.

Interesting.

If you were on my service as my junior taking care of the team's patients, then you're my junior and I'm your Chief Resident.

Out here in the real world, though, who gives a crap about that stuff? I may be three years your senior, but after residency you may become Chairman of some big fancy name place and I'll be begging you for a job! So long as you're a surgeon, surgeon-in-training, or a surgical resident we're colleagues plain and simple (unless you're an Ophthalmologist or an ENT), whether you're a 2, 3, 4, or fellow. Interns are a different story... ;)
 
Quick update: I posted last week that I fumbled my way through my first umbilical herniorraphy. Yesterday, with the same attending, I had the chance to do another one. It was awesome, I did the whole thing, skin to skin. It was very gratifying (under the supervision of an attending) to get dramatically better at a surgical procedure. Made my day, for a while there I felt like a surgeon, instead of an intern. Then I hit to floor to do four more consults. :)

No lap appy yet.
 
In addition to the above, it is much easier to move the organ yourself to facilitate exposure than it is to teach someone to do it for you/read your mind.

I agree. Im not sure why you guys think its harder to manipulate the gallbladder and hook cautery while some-one else drives the camera. I think its far easier this way, as I can move the gallbladder to where I can get a good view of what I want to burn. When the attending retracts they move the gallbladder to see what they want to get at and Im left trying to read thier minds.
 
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