My opinions on caribbean schools

[tracheatoedoc]

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If you've been reading these threads, then you know there are 4 Caribbean med schools judged by the Cali brd of med licensure that are judged to be of sufficient quality to compare to US med education. That alone should make these schools the number 1 priority of all prospective students. SGU, ROSS, AUC, SABA.
Seek admission to these schools. The others are 2nd or 3rd tier. All the schools will have people in US residencies that they can point to and say how great they are. I would assume the lesser schools are full of students who could not get into the Big 4.
Admission may be more competitive than you think. These schools get thousands of applications a year and obviously try to pick the best students possible.
Once in, it is entirely up to the student to succeed. The schools know that people will fail or leave for various reasons. I suspect that many of the negative posts here are from students ho encountered academic problems. The big 4 don't just pass you and collect the next semesters tuition, and I'm not so sure I can say that about the lesser schools. I think you would find that a large number of students at Spartan, Windsor, Xavier, AUA, MUA, etc. simply flunked out of SGU, ROSS, AUC, and SABA.
When I was at AUC (1994-1997) people would flunk out the first semester and transfer to another school
Medical school is not easy. Don't make the mistake in thinking that the Big 4 will pass you along and that completing will be easy. It will be just as difficult as a US school if not harder. Fail 2 classes your first semester at Ohio State and you get a tutor. Fail 2 classes the first semester at the Big 4 and you're conidered another casualty, a boderline student who hd a chance but didn't take advantage of it, and you're on your way elsewhere.
I suspect that alot of the negative posters on these forums are people who have faced academic hardship. Do well at the Big 4, and you will love it. Struggle, and you will post something bad about the school
All the schools have some issues, just go to one and you will find out what they are.

 

[tracheatoedoc]

You are an AMG who has a strong distaste for IMGs.
I don't believe there will be a significant tightening in residency availability. I think more residency positions will open, particularly in primary care .
If someone opens a Med school, I think USF is a recent example, they develop their own programs.
Don't listen to Wagy27, he is a naysayer, has limited if any knowledge of the Caribbean, or it's students.
That said, it is harder to get the same residency for a carib grad compared to an AMG with the same stats.
I think you will find, Wags, that you will encounter many IMGs in your career who are just as talented as you.

 

[RussianJoo]

You are an AMG who has a strong distaste for IMGs.
I don't believe there will be a significant tightening in residency availability. I think more residency positions will open, particularly in primary care .
If someone opens a Med school, I think USF is a recent example, they develop their own programs.
Don't listen to Wagy27, he is a naysayer, has limited if any knowledge of the Caribbean, or it's students.
That said, it is harder to get the same residency for a carib grad compared to an AMG with the same stats.
I think you will find, Wags, that you will encounter many IMGs in your career who are just as talented as you.

he's not the only one who's saying this. i have been saying the same thing for a while now. this isn't the 90's when 50% of anesthesia residencies went unmatched, when UCSF's anesthesia program would pay for an applicants airplane ticket and hotel room just so they would make the trip out to interview with them. slots are not increasing at the same rate as US medical grads, and there's a known and significant bias to place US grads in residencies over IMGs. The bills that were drawn up to increase residency spots are dead in their tracks, the government doesn't have the money for more residencies and it's not a priority to them. The news i've seen is how hospitals are closing their residency programs, the latest one was St. Vincent's in the city, hospitals are going bankrupt across the country. last years match was a huge disappointment for SGU, a large number of qualified grads who were US citizens had to participate in the scramble, this year will be even worse, my classmates have all struggled to get interviews, because US grads are applying to more programs and going on more interviews and this will only continue to get worse until people stop applying to some smaller carib schools and they'll be forced to close. the more qualified candidates will get into US schools because of increased admission numbers and the lesser qualified will go to the big 4 to maximize their chance of matching.

just because you got lucky and are now living the good life as an anesthesiologist doesn't mean others will get lucky as well, if you were applying for residency today you'd be saying the same thing.

 

[J-Rad]

I don't frequently post in the Carib forum (I don't consider myself an expert), but occasionally there seems to something I feel inspired to comment on...

I suspect that many of the negative posts here are from students ho encountered academic problems.
So RussianJoo and Howell Jolly are just disgruntled failures? I tend to give them benefit of the doubt that they were good students who face the realistic struggle of being a Carib grad. If I were to jusdge them solely based on their online persona I would say both deserve a fair shot at whatever they desire, yet it seems that both describe hardship just for being Carib students (not insurmountable hardship, but hardship nonetheless). I use them both as examples because, in my readings, they both offer staid and commendable advice.

Fail 2 classes your first semester at Ohio State and you get a tutor. Fail 2 classes the first semester at the Big 4 and you're conidered another casualty, a boderline student who hd a chance but didn't take advantage of it, and you're on your way elsewhere.
So this is a plus for Carib schools? A way to convince you that the Carib shouldn't be the absolute last resort? That for many the Carib, even at one of the big 4, is an expensive gamble?

That said, it is harder to get the same residency for a carib grad compared to an AMG with the same stats.
Umm, isn't this what a lot of people are saying, even the "naysayers"?

I think you will find, Wags, that you will encounter many IMGs in your career who are just as talented as you.

This last thing. This is what made me really want to respond. The times that I've read your posts, this is what's problematic. You create this subtle straw man; the one that's about how all the (AMG or DO) naysayers just don't appreciate Carib grads and think they're better than them. But when you really look through most of the posts with a critical and intellectually honest eye, you'd see AMGs saying: "it's a huge risk and it's becoming riskier-be careful how you spend your money and your future" and current Carib students saying the same. You, if you would look, would also see many AMG/DOs saying that they've worked with plenty of great Carib grads (I've had great experiences with Carib grads. I also make no judgments on anyone before seeing if they can deliver the goods or not). So stop setting up this straw man to knock down. It's intellectually dishonest and does nothing to help anyone, pro, con, or deciding.

 

[ChairmanMao]

You are an AMG who has a strong distaste for IMGs.
I don't believe there will be a significant tightening in residency availability. I think more residency positions will open, particularly in primary care .
If someone opens a Med school, I think USF is a recent example, they develop their own programs.
Don't listen to Wagy27, he is a naysayer, has limited if any knowledge of the Caribbean, or it's students.
That said, it is harder to get the same residency for a carib grad compared to an AMG with the same stats.
I think you will find, Wags, that you will encounter many IMGs in your career who are just as talented as you.

It's statements like these that make me doubt that you really are an attending.

OK you must be really insecure in assuming that all AMGs are out to get IMGs. The fact is, once you graduate, pass your USMLE and get into a residency, no one really cares. Besides that, we're critizing the school's business practices (like their high attrition rate, their match rates, and the fact that they require students to take an internal exam in order to sit for the USMLE), we're not criticizing the students.

Also, you have to be incredibly out of touch to not realize what is happening to residency positions and the medical school tuitions. Our country is about to run out of money, of course they're not going to have additional funding to increase the number of residency spots. Apart from that, medical school tuition has risen at an unprecedented rate over the past 10 years due to the fact that government funding has dried up for these kinds of professional programs.

As someone who has family members and family friends who are FMGs, I know exactly how difficult it is for IMGs to match. Nowadways, even if you graduate at the top of your med school class and perform above average on your USMLE, it does not garantee you a residency spot. As medical professionals, anyone who encourages prospective students to go off-shore or out of the country for their medical education without warning them about the consequences is doing a real disservice bordering on the unethical.

 

[Saga1]

It's statements like these that make me doubt that you really are an attending.

Yipes

 

[tracheatoedoc]

Mao, not addressing whatever you wrote. Barely read it.

Wags, you say caribbean schools are a disservice to US schools. I don't even understand that statement. There are a lot of crappy schools in the caribbean. If you can't get into a reputable one, don't go.

Joo, caribbean students were freaked out about getting residencies back in the 90's just like they are now. Imagine how those first classes in the late 70's felt. They must have gone down there without any idea whether they could even practice in the US let alone get a residency.

 

[RussianJoo]

Mao, not addressing whatever you wrote. Barely read it.

Wags, you say caribbean schools are a disservice to US schools. I don't even understand that statement. There are a lot of crappy schools in the caribbean. If you can't get into a reputable one, don't go.

Joo, caribbean students were freaked out about getting residencies back in the 90's just like they are now. Imagine how those first classes in the late 70's felt. They must have gone down there without any idea whether they could even practice in the US let alone get a residency.

yes exactly, there's never certainty in matching when you're going to the caribbean for med school so it's natural for people to freak out, especially when the match results come out in 2 weeks. but thinking that things will be ok as long as you get into school is wrong as well. everyone who i talk to who's older constantly talks about how much harder residency matching got, and how people are so much smarter now, there's a reason why the step1 passing score is now 188 i am sure it was in the high 170's back when you took the exam, so competitiveness is increasing, and the majority of people that go to the carib will probably end up getting a residency but i am willing to bet that a small minority actually gets what they want, be it the program that they want or the specialty that they want, and if they went to a US med school this wouldn't have been the case. people need to realize that there's real risks involved in going to the carib for med school, bigger risks than it was 10 or 15 years ago.

 

[GatorHater]

Yeah when I talked to two of my uncles (both MD's from Carib, SGU and AUC) and told them of my concerns..... they told me they heard the same stories when they were going to the carib (One was about 15 years ago, the other 10)

I will say it looks like it is becoming more of a reality

 

[ChairmanMao]

Aren't you like some pre med who thinks he knows his stuff when he clearly doesnt, especially when it comes to caribbean medical schools/students. Maybe you want to go the carib or maybe you have friends who went there and now you're jealous. But hey what can you expect from someone who idolizes the dude who basically destroyed tibet.

You're too

 

[Saga1]

First off,

You have failed to produce the data saying that the number of residency spots will be increasing to match the increasing number of AMG's yet you try to placate students by telling them these worries are just a normal part of being a Caribbean student. I have data from the ACGME/NRMP detailing the decreasing number of spots available. Can you provide data?

When I said Caribbean schools are a disservice to US schools, I meant that they continually come off with the pretense that if their students study hard and pass their Boards they will get a residency, a.ka. like US schools. That is not the case anymore. You say go to a reputable school...what about Ross one of the so called Big 4. recent data has shown the 4 year matriculation rate is 38%.

Until you can provide data which states that the other 62% fail to match or fail out, I would not really take what you say seriously.

For one, you're quoting a news article. As an MD I would hope you would realize by now that news articles are pop trash which twist facts for sensationalism.

For 2 I can personally attest to the fact that a sizeable portion of of a matriculating class drops out due to pressures aside from school, such as the Island, homesickness, etc. Dominica is not an easy island to live on.

Finally the bulk of the students that do fail out do so in the first few semesters. This is a good thing because it weeds out those who cannot hack it.

As a caribbean student I tell everyone who wants to come here NO go DO, or PA or NP (since the latter two are gaining an incredible amount of power in the workforce). But I also add that if they are willing to work harder than they ever have before and are willing to pretty much give up everything aside from sleep and food, then I say give it a shot.

 

[tantrum]

Mao, not addressing whatever you wrote. Barely read it.

Wags, you say caribbean schools are a disservice to US schools. I don't even understand that statement. There are a lot of crappy schools in the caribbean. If you can't get into a reputable one, don't go.

Joo, caribbean students were freaked out about getting residencies back in the 90's just like they are now. Imagine how those first classes in the late 70's felt. They must have gone down there without any idea whether they could even practice in the US let alone get a residency.

There was a time I was not scared about the number of residency spots but times have changed. Even the New York Times have already published articles on the increase in US schools (a reality not fear-mongering). The only way residency spots will increase is if Congress intervene and increase the cap on residency spots that are covered by Medicare.

 

[benjee]

In general, go to the medical schools where you want to practice medicine in that country . This is the most direct way to start your medical career. Whoever wants to practice medicine in US, better to study medicine in US medical schools. For those who cannot get in the first time, retry it instead of going to offshore eg . carribean, Europe, Asia..etc. There will be alot difficulties in obtaining training positions in US in coming years even with top scores or top students.

 

[rama kandra]

.

 

[Ariee]

If you've been reading these threads, then you know there are 4 Caribbean med schools judged by the Cali brd of med licensure that are judged to be of sufficient quality to compare to US med education. That alone should make these schools the number 1 priority of all prospective students. SGU, ROSS, AUC, SABA.
Seek admission to these schools. The others are 2nd or 3rd tier. All the schools will have people in US residencies that they can point to and say how great they are. I would assume the lesser schools are full of students who could not get into the Big 4.
Admission may be more competitive than you think. These schools get thousands of applications a year and obviously try to pick the best students possible.
Once in, it is entirely up to the student to succeed. The schools know that people will fail or leave for various reasons. I suspect that many of the negative posts here are from students ho encountered academic problems. The big 4 don't just pass you and collect the next semesters tuition, and I'm not so sure I can say that about the lesser schools. I think you would find that a large number of students at Spartan, Windsor, Xavier, AUA, MUA, etc. simply flunked out of SGU, ROSS, AUC, and SABA.
When I was at AUC (1994-1997) people would flunk out the first semester and transfer to another school
Medical school is not easy. Don't make the mistake in thinking that the Big 4 will pass you along and that completing will be easy. It will be just as difficult as a US school if not harder. Fail 2 classes your first semester at Ohio State and you get a tutor. Fail 2 classes the first semester at the Big 4 and you're conidered another casualty, a boderline student who hd a chance but didn't take advantage of it, and you're on your way elsewhere.
I suspect that alot of the negative posters on these forums are people who have faced academic hardship. Do well at the Big 4, and you will love it. Struggle, and you will post something bad about the school
All the schools have some issues, just go to one and you will find out what they are.

I agree with all of tracheatoedoc's post. I'm an IMG, I prematched into a great program. The CaRMS match results from students I know have revealed great matches into derm, optho, ortho, psych, im, ob and fm from what I know of so far!

To prospetives, you will encounter a lot of negativity on this board...

Some of us are not subpar applicants going into the Carib at all...I had a program director this year tell me that in his 30 year of interviewing applicants, I was the best one he had EVER seen...

Lastly, my husband's class mate who is an AMG (SUNY) is currently the worst in his class. He had to scramble to get the primary care residency and has now failed a rotation....We never see these points posted...it's not a war, we're on the same team folks, swallow them ego's!

G'luck to all on the NRMP!
A 🙂

 

[womp]

I agree with all of tracheatoedoc's post. I'm an IMG, I prematched into a great program. The CaRMS match results from students I know have revealed great matches into derm, optho, ortho, psych, im, ob and fm from what I know of so far!

To prospetives, you will encounter a lot of negativity on this board..

What specialty did you prematch?

 

[Ariee]

Hey there Womp. It's in my signature, maybe you didn't read it! 🙂 IM, always wanted IM and went for it! I wanted to be a Cardiologist since I was a kid (due to a familial illness), but hospital medicine really sparked my interest too...

 

[medflava]

Problem is, the Caribbean schools including SGU/ROSS/SABA/AUC won't provide adquate data on the failure rates accurately so the only information available is from the news article. Even in the rebuttal letter from the president of Ross no mention of numbers regarding percentage matriculating was made which makes me believe that the numbers are accurate.

ROSS probably has a huge failure rate like most carribean schools. Because when these schools accept these students, they don't filter out the party people from the good students who want to work hard and be physicians. Carribean medical schools are in it for the money. SJSM is supposed to top up at 50 students per semester but in my class we started off with 70. SGU now has 500+ per semester...it's all about money.