My options; any advice would help..

[CT119]

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So I just got my BS in Biochemistry at UCLA with a pretty low GPA(<3.0), MCAT is a 26, some volunteer experience and work experience.
I applied to MD but got rejected from all schools, the same goes for postbacc programs (But I think the reason was because I applied very late). I didn't know about DO schools until now.

Some of my options right now include (not ranked by preference or anything):
1) Caribbean MD - I got into UMHS, and I also got an interview for Ross but haven't heard back yet.

2) I got into Drexel University MPH for Fall 2010 (2 years), but no guarantee I will have a better chance to get into US Med schools.

3) I already applied to DO schools for the next cycle.

These options are new...

4) UCLA extension: the certificate program introductory science. Anyone know anything about this?

5) Medical Science Prep program at Drexel. It would be for next Fall.

6) WesternU MSMS. also for next year.

I've heard that getting a MD in a Caribbean Med School will make it really hard to get residencies.
I've also heard that a MPH won't really help my undergrad GPA for Medical school.

So my problem is that I don't know if I should just go straight to medical school (Caribbean) or go to Drexel MPH for 2 years, retake MCAT and reapply to US Medical schools...OR wait and see if I get into the MSP program at Drexel or WesternU MSMS..but this would be for NEXT year...

Or I am also thinking of applying to SMP programs, just not sure which ones would most benefit me.

Also, does it change anything if I plan to work outside the US in the future?

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks!

EDIT

I came across this today:
https://www.uclaextension.edu/r/Prog...aspx?reg=CF075

I'm not sure how much this will help, any opinions?

 

[Total180]

Why don't you just sign up to take some undergrad courses to increase your GPA this year as well as restudy for the MCAT and apply to MD and DO next year? I don't know how many classes you would have to take to increase your GPA but a year or 2 of straight A's would certainly help even if it doesn't increase your overall GPA that much. From what I've read around these forums and MPH won't help in terms of the things that you are lacking in (GPA and MCAT) so why not just focus on that? Everyone here advises apply to DO before deciding on a Caribbean school...so I would just take some classes and retake the MCAT this year and apply broadly DO and MD depending on your new scores.

 

[CT119]

Thanks for your advice, but where would I take those undergrad courses? Are those different than taking courses at a CC?

 

[mspeedwagon]

Let's take a look at your options closely.

1) Option 1 would be viable if it were Ross, Saba, SGU or AUC (the Big 4), but I would not move to the Caribbean for UMHS. Especially being from CA you probably don't want to loose the ability to practice in CA. I strongly advise against the Caribbean, but if it were one of the Big 4 it's a viable (albeit, not the best) route. UMHS on the other hand is not worth going to the Caribbean for.

2) An MPH won't help you. Drexel has an SMP program that would help you a lot more. The have an option to do it in Sacremento and your stats may sneak you into that one as they are looking for students (it's new). For most SMPs you'd need a higher MCAT though.

3) DO is a viable option, but your GPA is low.

I think your best option is to take more classes at your local state school (CSU is a great place to do this is you are indeed from CA). Definitely don't take GPA enhancing classes at a cc. While you take more course work to further your GPA at a local 4 yr state school be sure to also study for the MCAT. Getting from a 26 to a 30 over the course of a year should be relatively easy.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

Let's take a look at your options closely.

3) DO is a viable option, but your GPA is low.

I think your best option is to take more classes at your local state school (CSU is a great place to do this is you are indeed from CA). Definitely don't take GPA enhancing classes at a cc. While you take more course work to further your GPA at a local 4 yr state school be sure to also study for the MCAT. Getting from a 26 to a 30 over the course of a year should be relatively easy.

+1

You can take courses outside of a degree at almost all major universities. Usually there's a "School of Continuing Education" or a "Lifelong Learner Program" or something similarly titled that indicates it's for people who already have a degree, but just want to take classes for credit. Re-take the science & math classes you got the worst grades in and maybe a few upper-level biology classes as well.

Then, apply DO, where they just consider the best grade you received in the course. In that way, your GPA will be boosted more quickly than with MD applications. Stay in the US.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Check around for your financial aid options as well. If you stay in school as an undergrad you have 60 credits before they cut off your financial aid, if you start as a grad you have until you finish that degree. As far as the MPH, I disagree that it won't help. It depends on the schools you're interested in, and how well you do. Most schools are looking for improvement, if you slacked all through your undergraduate work and can pull in a 4.0 in your graduate work it will help.... Improvement is the key... I agree that taking undergraduate courses will help, and I would stick to high level science courses, take them so you get an A in all of them...

 

[CT119]

@mspeedwagon

Oh I was not aware of the SMP at Drexel, I will look into it.

Taking classes at a CSU seems okay to do, but do you know how long it would take to raise my GPA to a respectable one? I'm assuming it would take a while?

Thanks.

 

[CT119]

@GoodmanBrown

Yeah I know that it's best to stay in the US, but do you think you could give me some of the reasons you think I should stay in the US?

 

[CT119]

@SBB2016

" As far as the MPH, I disagree that it won't help. It depends on the schools you're interested in, and how well you do."

What do you mean the schools I am interested in? Like for MD schools? I got into Drexel University for a MPH, do you know anything about this particular school?

It did occur to me that improvement can help me out, but to what extent? I did slack off in my undergraduate years, and I'm sure that in graduate school, I won't be making the same mistakes..
But even if I get a 4.0 in graduate school, they will still look at my undergraduate GPA...

 

[student1799]

But even if I get a 4.0 in graduate school, they will still look at my undergraduate GPA...

That, in a nutshell, is your problem.

We may not agree with it, but med schools base admissions decisions almost exclusively on the uGPA, and pretty much ignore the grad GPA. This even applies to applicants (like Q) who have PhD's in the hard sciences; according to their posts, med schools reportedly look at a PhD as equivalent to a "nice EC" for application purposes.

One reason for this attitude, according to experienced admissions people I've talked to, is that adcoms apparently believe there's rampant grade inflation in grad school ("everyone gets an A"). So even if you do very well in such courses, it's unlikely to be taken very seriously.

Therefore, if you're going to do additional coursework to improve your med school prospects, you'll get much more mileage out of undergrad courses--including upper-level sciences if applicable--than a master's program. This is especially true if the master's is not in hard science and doesn't require a thesis (the typical setup for premed master's programs). An MPH would generally be looked at in this light, except if you make a very strong case in your application that you'll be using it in your future career (i.e. you want to work in public health, developing countries, etc.). And even then, it probably won't help you that much.

In most cases, the only "master's" that can really help you get into med school is an SMP (Special Master's Program). These are technically grad school, but the most successful SMPs are really like a dry run of the first year of med school. There is more about such programs elsewhere on SDN (including a whole discussion board on the Interdisciplinary forum), but suffice it to say that these are high-risk options for students who usually have high MCAT scores but very low GPAs--so low, or with so many credit hours, that it's practically impossible to raise them by taking classes. You generally wouldn't want to consider one unless you've already applied to med school at least once and didn't get in anywhere. The exception would be SMPs that are sponsored by a med school and have a good track record of getting students into THAT SCHOOL. (Be careful, because not all of them do.) See the SMP/Postbacc discussion board for details.

As far as the MPH, I disagree that it won't help. It depends on the schools you're interested in, and how well you do. Most schools are looking for improvement, if you slacked all through your undergraduate work and can pull in a 4.0 in your graduate work it will help.... Improvement is the key... I agree that taking undergraduate courses will help, and I would stick to high level science courses, take them so you get an A in all of them...

I think SBB's point is that there may be SOME schools out there who care a bit more than average about grad work. I'm sure that's true, because schools do vary in how they look at things. But I'm quite sure that a large majority treat grad work as I described above. And even SBB thinks you would benefit from taking undergrad courses.

My advice would be to take the high-yield strategy and do undergrad courses. (This includes "postbacc" programs, which have you taking undergrad classes.)

 

[CT119]

Does anyone know anything about the Post Bacc program at Manhattanville College? I got my letter of acceptance, but it doesn't seem that hard to get into..

Also, what do you all think of taking my premed classes over at UCLA Extension?

 

[TriagePreMed]

I will be a bit harsher here in saying to forget SMP all together. It will not help your uGPA, and given that you already failed at gaining admissions at a post-bacc program as well as medical school, you will probably not gain admissions.

As for post-bacc programs, these are usually designed for people that do career changes and have never taken science before. You, on the other hand, already have a UCLA degree in biochemistry.

Depending on how low your GPA is, I would recommend

1) Go to the Caribbean, but apply to the big 4 schools (SGU, AUC, Ross, and Saba). Do NOT go to one that's not one of the big 4. The likelihood you'll make SGU or AUC with under a 2.8 is slim. You will have a decent shot at Ross and Saba.,

2) Try to re-take all low grade classes at CSU or Extension. Then go onto applying to DO school. However, if you GPA is lower than a 2.5, you'll probably have to re-do so many classes that it won't be worth it in the end. You'll spend extra time compared to going to the Caribbean and an application with so many retakes looks icky.

Forget masters programs that are not SMP. They won't help you much. Schools are much more concerned with uGPA because that reflects on their average GPA.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I agree and disagree with this post. It actually depends on what your exact GPA is and how hard it is to raise it. All I know is that it is less than 3.0, but a 2.9 and a 2.1 are vastly different.

I agree you are unlikely to get into an SMP; however, if you were to do a masters than an SMP is the way to go.

Not all post-bacs are designed for career changers. There are a few that are designed for students that were science majors that want to raise there GPA. LECOM, for example, has such a post-bac.

I would not go to the Caribbean unless your GPA is not likely to recover with grade replacement quickly enough for you. Read the blog of JonathanMD (sdn member) and you'll see the hardships of the Caribbean route.

I will be a bit harsher here in saying to forget SMP all together. It will not help your uGPA, and given that you already failed at gaining admissions at a post-bacc program as well as medical school, you will probably not gain admissions.

As for post-bacc programs, these are usually designed for people that do career changes and have never taken science before. You, on the other hand, already have a UCLA degree in biochemistry.

Depending on how low your GPA is, I would recommend

1) Go to the Caribbean, but apply to the big 4 schools (SGU, AUC, Ross, and Saba). Do NOT go to one that's not one of the big 4. The likelihood you'll make SGU or AUC with under a 2.8 is slim. You will have a decent shot at Ross and Saba.,

2) Try to re-take all low grade classes at CSU or Extension. Then go onto applying to DO school. However, if you GPA is lower than a 2.5, you'll probably have to re-do so many classes that it won't be worth it in the end. You'll spend extra time compared to going to the Caribbean and an application with so many retakes looks icky.

Forget masters programs that are not SMP. They won't help you much. Schools are much more concerned with uGPA because that reflects on their average GPA.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I was told by the university I want to attend for med school that my best course to help my chances was to take Jr/Sr level science classes and get A's in them, or at least almost all of them... They did say recently that some graduate level science classes are ok, as long as it shows improvement. I do know they took a guy because he had an MPH from a "prestigious" university, and had a 3.9 in his course work... He previously had a 3.2 in his UG work...

So, that said, it really depends on what med school you're looking at, and you need to talk to the schools you're interested in. I, personally, for now would work on those 60 semester credits possibly toward a second bachelors and work on getting a 4.0.

Also, make sure you use your time wisely, get some great ECs on your list, because even a great academic candidate won't get in without a well rounded application (I have a friend with a 3.7 S/O GPA and a 38 mcat, he didn't get an interview at 12 of 13 schools he applied to because he lacked a "well rounded application"... For those of us with the deficit of GPA, we need everything else to be shiny and wonderful because if we're weak in one side, we need to overcompensate on the other... anything else will make us a below average candidate competing against average and above average candidates...

Another thing, make sure you figure out your GPA situation, with 60 credits, of a 4.0, 3.8, etc where will it get you? How much will your GPA improve? Also, consider retaking courses, if you're open to DO schools the new grade will count, and that can help... A LOT!... 😀 Best of luck

 

[mspeedwagon]

Drexel MPH would probably not count for a prestigious one. I've seen a few people wither lower GPAs get into med schools after doing well in Dartmouth's MPH program.

I do know they took a guy because he had an MPH from a "prestigious" university, and had a 3.9 in his course work... He previously had a 3.2 in his UG work...

 

[TriagePreMed]

What would his second bachelors be in? That's the really big problem in this. He already has a biochemistry degree. Anything that's a BA will look like padding, and anything that's a BS, will probably entail something like Engineering which is nearly impossible to maintain a 4.0.

If he's really into DO, doing 60 units of grade replacement can get him EXTREMELY far. For the typical student, 60 units of post-bacc work when he's had a GPA under 3.0 will bring it up .5. With grade replacement, he could easily turn that into a 1.0+ on his GPA.

The problem I see with the OP is that he's already had all his pre-med courses, so doing 60 units of grade replacement will make him still seem like a mediocre student. Getting an "A" on repeat is pretty much always expected.

I was told by the university I want to attend for med school that my best course to help my chances was to take Jr/Sr level science classes and get A's in them, or at least almost all of them... They did say recently that some graduate level science classes are ok, as long as it shows improvement. I do know they took a guy because he had an MPH from a "prestigious" university, and had a 3.9 in his course work... He previously had a 3.2 in his UG work...

So, that said, it really depends on what med school you're looking at, and you need to talk to the schools you're interested in. I, personally, for now would work on those 60 semester credits possibly toward a second bachelors and work on getting a 4.0.

Also, make sure you use your time wisely, get some great ECs on your list, because even a great academic candidate won't get in without a well rounded application (I have a friend with a 3.7 S/O GPA and a 38 mcat, he didn't get an interview at 12 of 13 schools he applied to because he lacked a "well rounded application"... For those of us with the deficit of GPA, we need everything else to be shiny and wonderful because if we're weak in one side, we need to overcompensate on the other... anything else will make us a below average candidate competing against average and above average candidates...

Another thing, make sure you figure out your GPA situation, with 60 credits, of a 4.0, 3.8, etc where will it get you? How much will your GPA improve? Also, consider retaking courses, if you're open to DO schools the new grade will count, and that can help... A LOT!... 😀 Best of luck

 

[TriagePreMed]

How hard is it to get into Dartmouth's MPH anyway? Like, what are the GPA ranges they are looking for?

Drexel MPH would probably not count for a prestigious one. I've seen a few people wither lower GPAs get into med schools after doing well in Dartmouth's MPH program.

 

[CT119]

Thanks for all the input, I'll look into all of the options more closely.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Requires a GPA of above 3.0 and either and MCAT of 28 or above or a GRE of 1200 or above.

How hard is it to get into Dartmouth's MPH anyway? Like, what are the GPA ranges they are looking for?

 

[CT119]

Okay so Caribbean is not a choice anymore, I got rejected from Ross and Saba.

I am thinking of either going to UCLA Extension or a PostBacc. I came across a post bacc program in Penn (Penn LPS), does anyone know anything about this?

Or should I get my MS instead of MPH?

But regarding UCLA Extension, if I retake most of my science courses, how do I figure out how much it will raise my GPA? And would I still be able to apply to both MD and DO schools?

 

[TriagePreMed]

People get rejected from those schools? Wow. Your GPA must be bordering 2.0.

At this point, I suggest you start looking into going to medical school in Mexico or something.

Okay so Caribbean is not a choice anymore, I got rejected from Ross and Saba.

I am thinking of either going to UCLA Extension or a PostBacc. I came across a post bacc program in Penn (Penn LPS), does anyone know anything about this?

Or should I get my MS instead of MPH?

But regarding UCLA Extension, if I retake most of my science courses, how do I figure out how much it will raise my GPA? And would I still be able to apply to both MD and DO schools?

 

[CT119]

Thanks, but my GPA actually isn't bordering 2.0...

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thanks, but my GPA actually isn't bordering 2.0...

You keep avoiding giving a number. I truly am confused by that. Do you think schools will track you down through a GPA you list here? Are you embarrassed to share it? If you want advice, the best bet is to lay all your cards down. Since you got rejected at Ross and Saba, it could be the case your problem goes beyond your statistics and is reflective of other areas of your application or even poor interviewing skills.

 

[CT119]

Well no I wasn't avoiding giving out my GPA. I just didn't see why I should say exactly what it is, but you're right. If I want advice I need to tell everything. So my GPA is a 2.6. What else should I lay out?
I had 2 jobs, I volunteered for 2 years in college (I volunteered before college too), no research or anything.
I also got a misdemeanor, but I don't know if that would play a major role...

 

[TriagePreMed]

Depends on the misdemeanor, but that could kill your chances in many places. I strongly suggest you call an attorney and try to get it expunged. Once you do so, you can apply much more freely without that problem.

I graduated with around a 2.8. I'm having to do 70 units with a 4.0 to bring it up to a 3.2. Luckily for me, the only science I took was oceanography and the like, except for a general bio course with no lab which I got an A.

If I had a 2.6 for a science degree, I would personally forget about US MD completely and solely focus on retaking classes to get into a DO program. You'll have 2 routes once you hit the 3.0. 1) apply to a SMP at a DO school which will make you a shoe-in if you ace the program, or 2) keep taking courses until you at least hit a 3.3 for DO. If you hit a 3.0 for Caribbean, that's another option.

Well no I wasn't avoiding giving out my GPA. I just didn't see why I should say exactly what it is, but you're right. If I want advice I need to tell everything. So my GPA is a 2.6. What else should I lay out?
I had 2 jobs, I volunteered for 2 years in college (I volunteered before college too), no research or anything.
I also got a misdemeanor, but I don't know if that would play a major role...

 

[INTPThinker]

You have to take the lab separately for UCLA extension with the regular students. The regular students get priority and these labs are during the day. So, I wouldnt count on getting to take the lab and lecture in the same quarter. It would be nice but you dont have priority for registering for labs. It is easy to get into the lecture courses. Just pay and you are in. First come first serve.

 

[UCF09]

Hey,

First off, you have options which is great. Secondly, it seems you have done your homework, which is vital. Everyone has put in some great advice and I would like to suggest the idea of really determining where it is you want to be in 15 years and then work backwards, in regards to how it is you will get there. One crucial question to ask yourself is, "Am I willing to attend a D.O. program instead of M.D. or maybe even D.P.M.?" That is something only you can answer. What will satisfy that desire you have? Lastly, I would suggest this, recklessly pursue your goal because in the end it will have been so much better to have laid it all out and given it all that you had. Our decisions don't terminate on ourselves either. How will your decisions affect your future patients? How can you best serve them with your particular set of skills and circumstances? Wish you the best!

 

[CT119]

@UCF09

What is a D.P.M? I never heard of that before...
Thanks for your insight!

 

[shouldvestudied]

DPM is Doctor of Podiatric Medicine.

 

[cloverpie]

So I just got my BS in Biochemistry at UCLA with a pretty low GPA(<3.0), MCAT is a 26, some volunteer experience and work experience.
I applied to MD but got rejected from all schools, the same goes for postbacc programs (But I think the reason was because I applied very late). I didn't know about DO schools until now.

Some of my options right now include (not ranked by preference or anything):
1) Caribbean MD - I got into UMHS, and I also got an interview for Ross but haven't heard back yet.

2) I got into Drexel University MPH for Fall 2010 (2 years), but no guarantee I will have a better chance to get into US Med schools.

3) I already applied to DO schools for the next cycle.

These options are new...

4) UCLA extension: the certificate program introductory science. Anyone know anything about this?

5) Medical Science Prep program at Drexel. It would be for next Fall.

6) WesternU MSMS. also for next year.

I've heard that getting a MD in a Caribbean Med School will make it really hard to get residencies.
I've also heard that a MPH won't really help my undergrad GPA for Medical school.

So my problem is that I don't know if I should just go straight to medical school (Caribbean) or go to Drexel MPH for 2 years, retake MCAT and reapply to US Medical schools...OR wait and see if I get into the MSP program at Drexel or WesternU MSMS..but this would be for NEXT year...

Or I am also thinking of applying to SMP programs, just not sure which ones would most benefit me.

Also, does it change anything if I plan to work outside the US in the future?

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks!

EDIT

I came across this today:
https://www.uclaextension.edu/r/Prog...aspx?reg=CF075

I'm not sure how much this will help, any opinions?

Why wouldn't you just retake your MCAT and take a bunch of upper-div science courses? You're very young and have plenty of time. Caribbean schools are very expensive anyway so it's not like you'd save much money either.

 

[CT119]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know how old I am? But yeah I have time.

Just wanted you all to know that I talked to someone from the admissions committee at Drexel School of Medicine (they referred me to the MPH at Drexel) and they said I should take the MPH instead of taking any science courses...but maybe they meant this for people with a decent GPA...

 

[cloverpie]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know how old I am? But yeah I have time.

Just wanted you all to know that I talked to someone from the admissions committee at Drexel School of Medicine (they referred me to the MPH at Drexel) and they said I should take the MPH instead of taking any science courses...but maybe they meant this for people with a decent GPA...

You said you just got your BS in biochemistry. I assumed this meant you had graduated last spring or in 2009 but "just got" is a relative term, I realize.