My surgery eval might be pretty bad, and it’s obviously my fault. How much will this hurt me?

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Latteandaprayer

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I’m thinking of IM vs Neuro vs Anes vs FM… I’ll do more electives and some sub-Is next year to figure it out.

TL;DR—fellow and resident set no expectations (literally said “I have no expectations”), I scrub in two days a week for the cases of the day, I don’t present patients on rounds, and I don’t stay long hours at night or come in on weekends. The other medical student does. I’m worried my eval will be bad, and I’m getting no guidance but I also don’t want to stay past 6 and come in on weekends since the fellow said he doesn’t expect us to. I try to ask questions and read up on all the patients, so I’m learning, but can’t prove it.

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I’m at the end of month 1 of 2 of surgery rotation. I tried and still try to learn what indications there are for surgery and how to manage a post-op patient. However, I’m on transplant surgery which is very busy and there is only 1 fellow, who is basically on all the time. He’s busy and exhausted. On the first day, he told me and the other medical student that he has no expectations of us. He doesn’t care if we scrub in, write notes, come in at night, etc. He doesn’t do any teaching because he’s busy. The senior resident on does have some expectations, like presenting patients to him and scrubbing in frequently, but even then he’s not really counting (or so it seems). My mid clerkship feedback from him was basically “scrub in more” which I’m doing.

My concern is that I really don’t do much. I present 1 patient to the resident in the mornings, and I scrub into cases probably 2 times a week (usually Mondays there aren’t cases, then I go tues/wed, and then Thursday is my clinic day. Fridays are didactics and we don’t go in. Fellow said he doesn’t expect us to come in on weekends). I help out on the floor by writing notes on Mondays. The other medical student presents patients on rounds, goes in at night, and sometimes goes on weekends. I’m not interested in going into surgery, she is, and honestly I don’t want to stay past 6 when I wake up at 4 every day.

I’m worried when they eval me, they’ll compare me to her and say I was disinterested and didn’t do much. This is true, but I have no guidance from the fellow or resident, and I am not interested in going into surgery but I am interested in understanding surgical patients. I try to ask “good” questions when I can, and I try to think of differentials whenever a patient has a complaint, but I don’t get to really tell anyone them because as soon as the patient says “my abdomen hurts” the fellow jumps in and says “I’m worried it’s a leak, we’ll get an ultrasound and might go back to the OR.”

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I’m thinking of IM vs Neuro vs Anes vs FM… I’ll do more electives and some sub-Is next year to figure it out.

TL;DR—fellow and resident set no expectations (literally said “I have no expectations”), I scrub in two days a week for the cases of the day, I don’t present patients on rounds, and I don’t stay long hours at night or come in on weekends. The other medical student does. I’m worried my eval will be bad, and I’m getting no guidance but I also don’t want to stay past 6 and come in on weekends since the fellow said he doesn’t expect us to. I try to ask questions and read up on all the patients, so I’m learning, but can’t prove it.

——

I’m at the end of month 1 of 2 of surgery rotation. I tried and still try to learn what indications there are for surgery and how to manage a post-op patient. However, I’m on transplant surgery which is very busy and there is only 1 fellow, who is basically on all the time. He’s busy and exhausted. On the first day, he told me and the other medical student that he has no expectations of us. He doesn’t care if we scrub in, write notes, come in at night, etc. He doesn’t do any teaching because he’s busy. The senior resident on does have some expectations, like presenting patients to him and scrubbing in frequently, but even then he’s not really counting (or so it seems). My mid clerkship feedback from him was basically “scrub in more” which I’m doing.

My concern is that I really don’t do much. I present 1 patient to the resident in the mornings, and I scrub into cases probably 2 times a week (usually Mondays there aren’t cases, then I go tues/wed, and then Thursday is my clinic day. Fridays are didactics and we don’t go in. Fellow said he doesn’t expect us to come in on weekends). I help out on the floor by writing notes on Mondays. The other medical student presents patients on rounds, goes in at night, and sometimes goes on weekends. I’m not interested in going into surgery, she is, and honestly I don’t want to stay past 6 when I wake up at 4 every day.

I’m worried when they eval me, they’ll compare me to her and say I was disinterested and didn’t do much. This is true, but I have no guidance from the fellow or resident, and I am not interested in going into surgery but I am interested in understanding surgical patients. I try to ask “good” questions when I can, and I try to think of differentials whenever a patient has a complaint, but I don’t get to really tell anyone them because as soon as the patient says “my abdomen hurts” the fellow jumps in and says “I’m worried it’s a leak, we’ll get an ultrasound and might go back to the OR.”
Is it pass fail?
 
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How do they act with the other student? Are they engaging her, acting interested, etc?
 
How do they act with the other student? Are they engaging her, acting interested, etc?
I guess more so than with me but not by a lot. I do notice that when she hands the fellow a gown or gloves on rounds before going into a room, he thanks her, but when I do he doesn’t say anything to me. That’s a minor thing but it’s a consistent thing. He also asks her to do more (like to go to the supply room to get gauze, stuff like that). I know she’s more into it and doing a better job than me, and if only one of us deserves honors it’s her and not me. But I’m not worried about getting honors, I just don’t want a negative eval. Especially when I’m getting no feedback on this clerkship despite asking for some, due to everyone being so busy, so I’m really worried I’ll be blindsided at the end.
 
Don't be blindsided. If you're only halfway done, reach out now to everyone you've worked with for feedback and try to finish strong.
 
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Don't be blindsided. If you're only halfway done, reach out now to everyone you've worked with for feedback and try to finish strong.
I did! On Monday, we set times to talk but surgeries came up so we couldn’t. I followed up and they said “we’ll try for next week.” Next week is my last week, so not much I can do.
 
I did! On Monday, we set times to talk but surgeries came up so we couldn’t. I followed up and they said “we’ll try for next week.” Next week is my last week, so not much I can do.
This is why you need to reach out for feedback sooner than last week.

My advice would be on Monday, find the attending or fellow and say, “hey I know it’s busy and I’m hoping to get formal feedback later this week, but for now could you let me know what I should work on this week?”
 
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This is why you need to reach out for feedback sooner than last week.

My advice would be on Monday, find the attending or fellow and say, “hey I know it’s busy and I’m hoping to get formal feedback later this week, but for now could you let me know what I should work on this week?”
I reached out the Wednesday before actually, they said let’s talk on Monday since there weren’t any schedule surgeries that day. I’ll try this
 
Buy that fellow and resident chipotle or something and bring it in. I had med students hand me all kinds of crap in residency and I don’t remember any of it. If a student put a burrito in my hand as a resident on a busy day, I probably would have included them in my will.
 
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I guess more so than with me but not by a lot. I do notice that when she hands the fellow a gown or gloves on rounds before going into a room, he thanks her, but when I do he doesn’t say anything to me. That’s a minor thing but it’s a consistent thing. He also asks her to do more (like to go to the supply room to get gauze, stuff like that). I know she’s more into it and doing a better job than me, and if only one of us deserves honors it’s her and not me. But I’m not worried about getting honors, I just don’t want a negative eval. Especially when I’m getting no feedback on this clerkship despite asking for some, due to everyone being so busy, so I’m really worried I’ll be blindsided at the end.

Are you a guy? Sometimes male fellows and attendings are more polite and nice to female med students but became monotoned with male medical students. It’s the old school mentality of men being nice to women but being jerks to other men. With that being said, you can also get male attendings who teach male med students more because they don’t think women should be in medicine - I actually had an attending like this who straight up told me that he doesn’t bother teaching female med students because they “end up getting pregnant and quitting medicine half the time”.
 
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Maybe dial up the effort a bit toward the end. It seems like you know what you should be doing and simply aren’t doing it. I don’t see any great mystery here.

That said, there are countless people who apply to non surgical fields with surgery evals noting they didn’t seem that interested in surgery. Such an eval might be a huge red flag for a surgical field, but would get little more than a smirk from anyone else.

The fact is you’re not that interested and you’re letting it show. You’re not putting in an honors level performance and you’ve already listed your reasons why. You’re doing the bare minimum and should expect P/HP, and your evals at worst will say you didn’t seem that interested in surgery and scrubbing in. So basically what everyone who didn’t go into surgery felt when they went through.
 
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Maybe dial up the effort a bit toward the end. It seems like you know what you should be doing and simply aren’t doing it. I don’t see any great mystery here.

That said, there are countless people who apply to non surgical fields with surgery evals noting they didn’t seem that interested in surgery. Such an eval might be a huge red flag for a surgical field, but would get little more than a smirk from anyone else.

The fact is you’re not that interested and you’re letting it show. You’re not putting in an honors level performance and you’ve already listed your reasons why. You’re doing the bare minimum and should expect P/HP, and your evals at worst will say you didn’t seem that interested in surgery and scrubbing in. So basically what everyone who didn’t go into surgery felt when they went through.
As usual I agree with @operaman as he gives feedback on surgical fields. It’s fine if you don’t want to be a surgeon, but if you put in the minimum amount of effort you should expect the minimum eval.
 
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You've kind of answered your own questions.. you know what would be "above and beyond" and what is "minimum effort" as evidenced of you listing out the things you could do to go above and beyond but admitting you don't want to do them because no one "told you to". If you want Honors, you typically have to exceed expectations, that is, doing things that aren't asked of you. So showing up on weekends or staying past 6. Scrubbing into more cases. Showing up to clinic with different attendings. Having labs/overnight updates available to offer at rounds when the team is scrambling around trying to find that data. It's hard work and no one asks you to put in all these extra efforts, but these are the kinds of things you unfortunately have to do if you want the highest grade. Otherwise if you're doing bare minimum you'll get a bare minimum grade.
Sounds like you're not really interested in surgery, so it really doesn't matter anyway. So long as you pass.
 
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Sounds like you're not really interested in surgery, so it really doesn't matter anyway. So long as you pass.
Maybe it's the application season paranoia, but I think these days are over. I think, nowadays, one needs the best grades possible in every clerkship/class to maximize chances of matching even to specialties that used not to be as competitive.
 
Maybe it's the application season paranoia, but I think these days are over. I think, nowadays, one needs the best grades possible in every clerkship/class to maximize chances of matching even to specialties that used not to be as competitive.
Nah
 
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Maybe it's the application season paranoia, but I think these days are over. I think, nowadays, one needs the best grades possible in every clerkship/class to maximize chances of matching even to specialties that used not to be as competitive.
Double agree on the nah. Doesn't matter. Something like 93% of USMDs match. You think all 93% had all honors? What would be the point then.
 
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Maybe it's the application season paranoia, but I think these days are over. I think, nowadays, one needs the best grades possible in every clerkship/class to maximize chances of matching even to specialties that used not to be as competitive.
Broadly speaking I think you may be right. That said, there can be a bit of leeway for occasional blips. For example, if OP gets to IM and neuro and psych and loves it and crushes it, works extra hard and lands Hs or HPs, then you have an app that looks like someone is a strong student but simply didn’t like surgery and had zero interest in the OR. My guess is most practicing internists and psychiatrists and whatnot probably felt the same way.

Now, if OP turns in barely passing performances everywhere else too because they still want to do the bare minimum, then that’s definitely going to reflect badly. And of course if OP is aiming at top programs in less competitive fields then even the surgery P may be an issue if all the competition is stronger.

But assuming this P and some lackluster evals are an anomaly, I think they may be ok. Unfortunately, the bare minimum mindset tends to find its way into everything else. Hopefully that isn’t the case for OP.
 
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No, Pass, High Pass, Honors, Fail. I’m less worried about the final grade (I’m pretty sure I can pass), I’m more worried about the eval being negative
A pass on your Surgery rotation might hurt a bit when applying to higher-tier academic anesthesiology programs, as anesthesiology is probably closest to Surgery so PDs may pay closer attention to Surgery clerkship grades and eval. Also, anesthesiology is somewhat more competitive lately than IM, FM, or Neurology.

Otherwise, having a pass might not hurt so much for the other specialties as long as no concerning comments from your evals make it into your final Deans Letter (and what comments to put in your Deans Letter for each rotation is up to the clerkship director at most schools).
 
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I wrote out a whole 3 paragraphs on this and how to improve before realizing that your rotation has been over for awhile, but now I need to know: How did you end up scoring @Latteandaprayer ?
 
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I wrote out a whole 3 paragraphs on this and how to improve before realizing that your rotation has been over for awhile, but now I need to know: How did you end up scoring @Latteandaprayer ?
I'm curious, as well.

I have to say that OP's situation was tough as far as getting no guidance from the team as to what a HP-level performance looks like--which generally means putting in strong effort to meet or slightly exceed team/clerkship expectations. But that's not always surprising when it comes to surgery clerkship...
 
I'm curious, as well.

I have to say that OP's situation was tough as far as getting no guidance from the team as to what a HP-level performance looks like--which generally means putting in strong effort to meet or slightly exceed team/clerkship expectations. But that's not always surprising when it comes to surgery clerkship...
HP! Wooh
 
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