MD & DO N/A

[horchatapapi]

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[Kardio]

In my opinion, your post-bac performance qualifies as “acing” it; I wouldn’t downplay your success there and some ‘reinventer’ schools will give you credit for that. Your MCAT score looks good and your extracurriculars are unique and interesting.

As far as MD schools go, I think you’ve “walked the walk” enough to be seriously considered by historically black medical schools. Are you URM?

Note that AMCAS will determine the SES disadvantaged status you’re claiming by checking if you have received a Pell grant in college, if you qualify for FAP assistance (300% of the poverty-level income for you and your parents, treated separately) and your parental Education/Occupation status.

Is your sGPA >3?

 

[Faha]

Where is your state of residence ? Are you from an URM ethnic group ?

 

[CandH23]

Thank you. It's been a long road and I'm constantly doubting myself if I don't do anything nearly perfect now... My sGPA = 3.0.

I am not URM so perhaps historically black medical schools are out of the question?

Not at all. You have to fit their mission though

 

[Faha]

You could receive interviews at some DO schools and I suggest applying to all these:
CHSU-SOM (new school in Fresno)
ICOM
BCOM
UIWSOM
ARCOM
NYIT-Arkansas
PCOM Georgia and South Georgia
UP-KYCOM
WVSOM
VCOM (all 3 schools)
LUCOM
LECOM (all schools)
For MD schools you could try these
Kaiser
California University
California Northstate
Quinnipiac
Seton Hall
NOVA MD
Oakland Beaumont
Rush
George Washington
Loyola
Creighton

 

[Faha]

You can try the Touro schools but they are more competitive. You can receive interviews at DO schools with your current stats. A SMP could help you with MD schools if you did well but there is no guarantee of a MD acceptance even if you do well in a SMP.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Please, for the love of God, take CNU off your list. It is the sketchiest medical school in America.

 

[SDunkey]

Please, for the love of God, take CNU off your list. It is the sketchiest medical school in America.

I'm not familiar with either school much, but looking at your posting history, you seem to have a strong hatred against CNU when you're just a pre-med. Any particular reason besides the "for-profit" status?
I mean, in California alone, CUSM seems to get significant love and that place sounds a whole lot sketchier. They don't even have a campus yet (they literally share a building with a go-kart raceway), and they don't have cadavers for anatomy lab...

 

[Walter Raleigh]

@Goro can explain more about why CNU is so sketchy.

 

[Goro]

I'm not familiar with either school much, but looking at your posting history, you seem to have a strong hatred against CNU when you're just a pre-med. Any particular reason besides the "for-profit" status?
I mean, in California alone, CUSM seems to get significant love and that place sounds a whole lot sketchier. They don't even have a campus yet (they literally share a building with a go-kart raceway), and they don't have cadavers for anatomy lab...

*sigh* Not a pre-med, merely an Adcom member and Faculty with close to 20 years experience.

Why NOT to apply to CNU (from the wise gyngyn and Med Ed)
1. Their method of selecting the inaugural class was slapdash. They didn't use AMCAS, just faxes and PayPal. This disregard for modern systematic processing makes one wonder if their profit motive was more important than thoughtful consideration.

2. This class ended up with twice as many men as women. The second Class still has more men than women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one wonders what other important elements of education are being missed.

3. A review of faculty credentials STILL reveals a significant lack of scholarship.

4. In a state that is at least 30% Mexican American, they only had a single representative from this group. In the 2nd Class this number has risen to 7, which still is <10%, and for the entering Class of 2018, it's 5 (which is 5.2%).

5. They had the chance to enable their students to be able to get federal loans. They refused, and still do so. This says that their profits are more important than their students. Compare this to another new school (UNLV) that covered the bridge to federal loans by offering free tuition.

6. Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider these graduates in the same light as other applicants at the moment. (NOTE: for whatever it's worth, a recent PD's survey ranking the reputation of US medical schools placed CNU literally dead last among all the MD schools.)

7. The LCME did not really "allow" CNU to have a class starting 2015. The LCME granted preliminary accreditation in June (not unusual), and then CNU took the unprecedented step of seating a class less than three months later. Literally ever other new medical school accredited in the modern era has gone through at least a partial AMCAS cycle. This is why the LCME is apparently pissed off at CNU, and why [students] might end up paying a price later. The only reason for CNU to have done this was to get money flowing in the door ASAP. Again, every other new medical school has used the gap between preliminary accreditation and white coat to shore up the faculty and curriculum.

8. Just compare their mission statement to any other medical school. It’s telling.

9. Their first match list was inferior to a number of DO schools, especially in the inability of graduates to get into competitive specialties. If anything, their successes were in spite of their school, not because of it.

Lastly, there is nothing sketchy about how CalU started their school (unlike CN"u"). While I dislike the lack of cadavers, they're not the first med school to go to digital anatomy. This is a med school started by a major, high volume community hospital.

It's not hatred to explain why a school should be avoided.

 

[PickleRickelus]

I'm not familiar with either school much, but looking at your posting history, you seem to have a strong hatred against CNU when you're just a pre-med. Any particular reason besides the "for-profit" status?
I mean, in California alone, CUSM seems to get significant love and that place sounds a whole lot sketchier. They don't even have a campus yet (they literally share a building with a go-kart raceway), and they don't have cadavers for anatomy lab...

Cal Med is definitely not sketchy. The new building is still under construction and will probably be finished by the time OP matriculates. They are tied to ARMC, a major hospital in so cal with the second busiest ER behind LA County and a plethora of GME programs. As far as I know, CNU does not have a hospital affiliation of this caliber.

 

[SDunkey]

I have nothing for or against the school (besides doing a couple of west coast Sub-I's and talking to attendings around Sacramento). Mostly arguing since I'm in the dead-zone between the end of 4th year and starting my psych intern year this summer. And I mean the following notes with no disrespect, but I've seen you copy/paste pretty much this same thing for the last 4 years. Would probably be helpful if you updated it. And I mean, holding something the school has done nearly 4 years ago seems pretty ridiculous when talking about them today.

*sigh* Not a pre-med, merely an Adcom member and Faculty with close to 20 years experience.

I didn't say you were?

Why NOT to apply to CNU (from the wise gyngyn and Med Ed)
1. Their method of selecting the inaugural class was slapdash. They didn't use AMCAS, just faxes and PayPal. This disregard for modern systematic processing makes one wonder if their profit motive was more important than thoughtful consideration.

No argument against this, see above.

2. This class ended up with twice as many men as women. The second Class still has more men than women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one wonders what other important elements of education are being missed.

They obviously corrected their issue with their 2nd class. 50-40 split per their website. 49-45 for their 3rd class. 51-46 for their 4th class. Again, seems pretty ignorant to still use their first class data when talking about why they are "sketchy" today. Unless you expect an exact 50% split, which hardly any school has. Look at UC Davis and Touro's demographics.

3. A review of faculty credentials STILL reveals a significant lack of scholarship.

Out of my expertise, but when was the last time you looked at their faculty credentials? Or is this copy/pasted from 4 years ago? Quick look shows a former dean from UC Davis and former program directors from local schools like UC Davis. Nothing great but nothing terrible.

4. In a state that is at least 30% Mexican American, they only had a single representative from this group. In the 2nd Class this number has risen to 7, which still is <10%, and for the entering Class of 2018, it's 5 (which is 5.2%)..

This is what bugs me with this argument. We all know any solid URM will essentially have their pickings of what school to attend. A lower-tier MD/DO school is going to struggle, especially with the number of other California schools any URM can choose. Why are you not calling out Touro-CA, which is still struggling with URM recruitment while being in existence for significantly longer?

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/tucom-ca-cib-2019.pdf?sfvrsn=17e22597_6

Touro-CA's Class of 2021, a school that has been around much longer, has demographics of 1% Hispanic and 2% African-American.
Why would an URM with 0 red flags choose to go to Touro, CNU, or any lower-school, when they can likely get into UCLA, UCSD, Stanford, UCSF, etc.

5. They had the chance to enable their students to be able to get federal loans. They refused, and still do so. This says that their profits are more important than their students. Compare this to another new school (UNLV) that covered the bridge to federal loans by offering free tuition.

No argument against this, but that's more a negative against their business office rather than the faculty, staff, or students.

6. Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider these graduates in the same light as other applicants at the moment. (NOTE: for whatever it's worth, a recent PD's survey ranking the reputation of US medical schools placed CNU literally dead last among all the MD schools.)

Link? I don't talk to any PDs so we can leave it at that, but it doesn't seem to have affected how their students matched, regardless of your opinions of their match list. See below

7. The LCME did not really "allow" CNU to have a class starting 2015. The LCME granted preliminary accreditation in June (not unusual), and then CNU took the unprecedented step of seating a class less than three months later. Literally ever other new medical school accredited in the modern era has gone through at least a partial AMCAS cycle. This is why the LCME is apparently pissed off at CNU, and why [students] might end up paying a price later. The only reason for CNU to have done this was to get money flowing in the door ASAP. Again, every other new medical school has used the gap between preliminary accreditation and white coat to shore up the faculty and curriculum.

"Apparently". "Might". Awfully a whole lot of presumptions and hypotheticals. Per LCME's website, the status of their school's survey is pending, so we'll see what happens.

8. Just compare their mission statement to any other medical school. It’s telling.

Judging a school by it's mission statement seems like grasping for straws. Reaching for anything because you already have a clear bias against them. By the Dean's message, it's the usual jazz of hoping to address the PCP shortage in CA. Per their match list, I'd say it's consistent so far.

9. Their first match list was inferior to a number of DO schools, especially in the inability of graduates to get into competitive specialties. If anything, their successes were in spite of their school, not because of it.

Inferior to top DO schools, but actually consistent with other low-tier MD schools including mine. A low-tier MD school matching similar to expectations? Outrageous! And for all we know, their graduates didn't attempt competitive specialties. Maybe a good number of them wanted to go to IM/Peds/FM/Neuro/EM and that's why they had no qualms matriculating in the first place? No one from any early class of any medical school without significant connections should expect to match into Dermatology, Vascular Surgery, etc.
And neither of us has any argument defending or refuting the bolded. Just seems like a baseless assumption.

Cal Med is definitely not sketchy. The new building is still under construction and will probably be finished by the time OP matriculates. They are tied to ARMC, a major hospital in so cal with the second busiest ER behind LA County and a plethora of GME programs. As far as I know, CNU does not have a hospital affiliation of this caliber.

Sorry for getting sidetracked, but the bolded was my entire point. If CNU opened a school without a campus, people would be calling them out non-stop. And if they didn't use real cadavers, people would be calling it a "money" issue, but for CUSM, they turn the other cheek. Why didn't they wait until the new building was finished before matriculating their first class, instead of putting them with a go-kart track? Is "digital anatomy" the new thing, or are they compensating for the lack of money or the inability to get real cadavers?

Again, I have no connections with CNU so I don't exactly know what affiliations they've had, but I've done Sub-Is in Sacramento and the attendings only had great things to say about the students and school (when we talked about what other schools have been rotating with said attendings). They've also told me the school has affiliations with Kaisers and Sutters throughout the Sacramento and Central Valley. The Kaiser I rotated in is the busiest ER in the county. No clue about GME.

 

[Goro]

I have nothing for or against the school (besides doing a couple of west coast Sub-I's and talking to attendings around Sacramento). Mostly arguing since I'm in the dead-zone between the end of 4th year and starting my psych intern year this summer. And I mean the following notes with no disrespect, but I've seen you copy/paste pretty much this same thing for the last 4 years. Would probably be helpful if you updated it. And I mean, holding something the school has done nearly 4 years ago seems pretty ridiculous when talking about them today.



I didn't say you were?



No argument against this, see above.



They obviously corrected their issue with their 2nd class. 50-40 split per their website. 49-45 for their 3rd class. 51-46 for their 4th class. Again, seems pretty ignorant to still use their first class data when talking about why they are "sketchy" today. Unless you expect an exact 50% split, which hardly any school has. Look at UC Davis and Touro's demographics.



Out of my expertise, but when was the last time you looked at their faculty credentials? Or is this copy/pasted from 4 years ago? Quick look shows a former dean from UC Davis and former program directors from local schools like UC Davis. Nothing great but nothing terrible.



This is what bugs me with this argument. We all know any solid URM will essentially have their pickings of what school to attend. A lower-tier MD/DO school is going to struggle, especially with the number of other California schools any URM can choose. Why are you not calling out Touro-CA, which is still struggling with URM recruitment while being in existence for significantly longer?

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/tucom-ca-cib-2019.pdf?sfvrsn=17e22597_6

Touro-CA's Class of 2021, a school that has been around much longer, has demographics of 1% Hispanic and 2% African-American.
Why would an URM with 0 red flags choose to go to Touro, CNU, or any lower-school, when they can likely get into UCLA, UCSD, Stanford, UCSF, etc.


No argument against this, but that's more a negative against their business office rather than the faculty, staff, or students.



Link? I don't talk to any PDs so we can leave it at that, but it doesn't seem to have affected how their students matched, regardless of your opinions of their match list. See below



"Apparently". "Might". Awfully a whole lot of presumptions and hypotheticals. Per LCME's website, the status of their school's survey is pending, so we'll see what happens.



Judging a school by it's mission statement seems like grasping for straws. Reaching for anything because you already have a clear bias against them. By the Dean's message, it's the usual jazz of hoping to address the PCP shortage in CA. Per their match list, I'd say it's consistent so far.



Inferior to top DO schools, but actually consistent with other low-tier MD schools including mine. A low-tier MD school matching similar to expectations? Outrageous! And for all we know, their graduates didn't attempt competitive specialties. Maybe a good number of them wanted to go to IM/Peds/FM/Neuro/EM and that's why they had no qualms matriculating in the first place? No one from any early class of any medical school without significant connections should expect to match into Dermatology, Vascular Surgery, etc.
And neither of us has any argument defending or refuting the bolded. Just seems like a baseless assumption.




Sorry for getting sidetracked, but the bolded was my entire point. If CNU opened a school without a campus, people would be calling them out non-stop. And if they didn't use real cadavers, people would be calling it a "money" issue, but for CUSM, they turn the other cheek. Why didn't they wait until the new building was finished before matriculating their first class, instead of putting them with a go-kart track? Is "digital anatomy" the new thing, or are they compensating for the lack of money or the inability to get real cadavers?

Again, I have no connections with CNU so I don't exactly know what affiliations they've had, but I've done Sub-Is in Sacramento and the attendings only had great things to say about the students and school (when we talked about what other schools have been rotating with said attendings). They've also told me the school has affiliations with Kaisers and Sutters throughout the Sacramento and Central Valley. The Kaiser I rotated in is the busiest ER in the county. No clue about GME.

My my, for someone who claims not to have anything to do with CNU, you sure do a lot of CNUsplaining. And what's driving the animus against CalU? Did they reject you?

One point worth mentioning: CalU managed to get a pioneer class that's gender balanced.

Don't have time to respond in full...have to get into the lab now.

 

[SDunkey]

My my, for someone who claims not to have anything to do with CNU, you sure do a lot of CNUsplaining. And what's driving the animus against CalU? Did they reject you?

One post calling out a super-old copy/paste is "CNUsplaining"? I'll wait for an actual response if you're capable of it.
Hilarious how your only comeback is presuming that they rejected me. A sign of a losing argument is attacking the poster instead of the substance. Why not keep it on-topic? If you actually read my post, you'd see that I'm starting a psych residency this summer. So no, CalU didn't even exist during my application cycle.

And do you not realize that 58% men is no more "gender-balanced" than CNU's following classes, which you continue to call out for some reason.
And I quote "The second Class still has more men than women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one wonders what other important elements of education are being missed.".Why are you not calling out that they also have more men than women? Are you going to call them out when their 2nd class isn't exactly 50-50?
I repeat CNU's second class has 44% female, which you criticize. CUSM has 42% female, which you praise. CNU has 5%+ Hispanics, which you criticize. Touro has <1%, which you ignore.

I have 0 ties to CNU and 0 ties to CUSM. I'm just calling out the clear vendetta against a certain school when the only "evidence" that you're using outdated. To me, it looks like you already have an opinion about the school, and you're just reaching for points to try and support it.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Hey, if for some reason you are deeply smitten with CNU and insist on applying, it's your funeral. It isn't just me telling people not to apply to CNU, it's experienced admissions committee members weighing in on this.

 

[SDunkey]

Lol, I'm going to take ownership of this post again and ask @Goro what do you think of my chances for matriculating somewhere with current stats/schools I should apply to...

Your MCAT score is solid and your post-bacc GPA is something you should be proud of. How many units have you taken for your post-bacc?
Unfortunately, even with the upward trend, I think nearly all of the MD schools are still out of the question. I think you have a solid shot at some of the DO schools listed above. In regards to SMPs, you can even try some of Touro's master's programs. I have friends with similar overall stats as yours who had success with those.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

I would not say that MD schools are out of the question for OP, especially if the cGPA and sGPA are north of 3.0. State medical schools and those that reward reinvention might bite on this individual. Have a look at this:

Goro's guide to reinvention

ECs are strong and upward trend is good. Have some MD schools on the list.

 

[Goro]

Lol, I'm going to take ownership of this post again and ask @Goro what do you think of my chances for matriculating somewhere with current stats/schools I should apply to...

Wake
Netter
GWU
NYMC
Albany
Nova MD
SLU
Rush
Loyola
Tulane
Miami
Wayne state
Creighton
Your state schools
EVMS
Drexel
any DO school

 

[Slytherclaw12]

@horchatapapi If you could PM me with what postbac you attend; that'd be great! I feel like we have similar stories, and I'm trying to determine which postbacs to apply to. Thanks!