Naturopatic Doctor?

[fullefect1]

Who really wants to become one? Is there any oppurtunities after gaining the degree that are even worth spending 4 years in school? I don't believe I have ever heard of a ND except for this forum.

I have noticed that they do alot of classes that seem similar to MD/DO's, but what are their actually practicing rights?

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[ken37]

For those considering a ND, you might think about stepping up to a really prestigious degree like Chiropractic Assistant.

 

[sacc]

For those considering a ND, you might think about stepping up to a really prestigious degree like Chiropractic Assistant.

lol

Check this link out. You may have to register with Medscape but its a cool article. It pissed off alot of ND's when the guy wrote it. Good article.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465994?src=search

 

[fullefect1]

Well after reading that article, and still looking to the top right of my screen seeing the advertisement "become a different kind of doctor", I vote to get it off this site. Of course, I doubt they will do that because of the $$$$$. It is all about the cash money.

 

[JohnnyOU]

Well after reading that article, and still looking to the top right of my screen seeing the advertisement "become a different kind of doctor", I vote to get it off this site. Of course, I doubt they will do that because of the $$$$$. It is all about the cash money.

I agree. If the guy who owns SDN wants us to give any credibility to his banner ads on this site, then he needs to filter out the bogus stuff immediately.

Then again, if its just about making a few extra $ at the expense of SDN's credibility, then I suppose its his right.

Johnny

 

[DrMom]

Lee responed to someone's question about the ad in question here.

 

[Lion-O]

What's our society's obsession with "natural"? As if it is morally wrong to use something created by people. Where did this connection between nature and good health arise? Alas.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I find it ironic that a DO is bashing naturopathy. It seems the NDs might be on the same track the DOs were decades ago.

I'm all about people having everything available to them to reach their own conclusions. I regard anything -- science, theology, politics, etc. -- with this same personal philosophy. If someone sees a naturopathic ad and decides to click on it to read more, good for them! Here's hoping they make an informed, personal opinion on the matter.

If you really want something to complain about, turn your attention towards Reflexology, Chiropracty (the bad ones, not the good ones who realize its limitations), or magnetic therapy.

Here, check out this dingus: http://www.reflexologyinstitute.com

I hope this philosophy works, but maybe I'm giving people too much credit?

 

[Cerberus]

I find it ironic that a DO is bashing naturopathy. It seems the NDs might be on the same track the DOs were decades ago.

I'm all about people having everything available to them to reach their own conclusions. I regard anything -- science, theology, politics, etc. -- with this same personal philosophy. If someone sees a naturopathic ad and decides to click on it to read more, good for them! Here's hoping they make an informed, personal opinion on the matter.

If you really want something to complain about, turn your attention towards Reflexology, Chiropracty (the bad ones, not the good ones who realize its limitations), or magnetic therapy.

Here, check out this dingus: http://www.reflexologyinstitute.com

I hope this philosophy works, but maybe I'm giving people too much credit?

I disagree because a DO still does essentially everything an MD does, they just throw in some "whole person" crap. ND's arent much better than snake charmers, I wouldnt be surprised if you went to see one for severe chest pains and came back with a magnetic bracelet.

 

[MacGyver]

I have noticed that they do alot of classes that seem similar to MD/DO's, but what are their actually practicing rights?

In Arizona and California, NDs can do 95% of what an FP does. They can prescribe ALL medicines with no MD oversight.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I disagree because a DO still does essentially everything an MD does, they just throw in some "whole person" crap. ND's arent much better than snake charmers, I wouldnt be surprised if you went to see one for severe chest pains and came back with a magnetic bracelet.

I meant back when all they did was OMT. I expect ND's to go through some of the same battles DOs did decades ago and eventually attain full practice rights in most of the US. This may be a good thing, as fewer and fewer MDs and DOs enter family medicine.

 

[MD Rapper]

lol

Check this link out. You may have to register with Medscape but its a cool article. It pissed off alot of ND's when the guy wrote it. Good article.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465994?src=search

Wow! I didn't know it was this bad. I will take this article at face-value. Do not ever go to or become an ND! It IS quackery. There is no question about it. The reason they will not gain clout like DO's did back in the day is because they refuse to scientifically prove, let alone explain, how their methods work. The last thing they should have is government backing. Don't let these illegal bastards take away from medicine's reputation.

 

[jlee9531]

I agree. If the guy who owns SDN wants us to give any credibility to his banner ads on this site, then he needs to filter out the bogus stuff immediately.

Then again, if its just about making a few extra $ at the expense of SDN's credibility, then I suppose its his right.

Johnny

umm...i rather there be a few banners...then no sdn at all.
its not like we are jumping at the bit to support sdn through continuous monetary donations.

sdn's rep does not take a hit at all.

 

[ad_sharp]

I took care of a woman who refused to let a traditional doctor treat her for breast cancer. She went to some dude that gave her herbal treatments and some other crap. Needless to say, she died. She would have at least had a good shot going the traditional route.

 

[sacc]

I took care of a woman who refused to let a traditional doctor treat her for breast cancer. She went to some dude that gave her herbal treatments and some other crap. Needless to say, she died. She would have at least had a good shot going the traditional route.

That's a really good point. Some of these scum prey on people dying of terminal diseases who are desperately searching for some cure. Disgusting.

When I first heard about NDs, I thought they were like ethnobotanists searching for new disease-fighting pharmacological substances in the far reaches of the Amazon or something. Needless to say I was wrong. 🙂

 

[BackTalk]

My Grandmother had ovarian cancer and went to a MD and died. Maybe if she went to a ND she might still be living. There is a guy who practices near me that is an MD (internist). He cured his wife of cancer using only natural therapy (vitamins, herbs, etc.). Don't be so quick to think that the medical approach is the only answer.

 

[sacc]

Sorry about your grandmother. But I don't think you can make broad generalizations about what works based on anectdotal stories. In some small, random number of cases, it may appear that some ND method works;however, you can't draw any real conclusions b/c their entire system of peer review is irreproducible crap (see above article).

Also, I never said the medical approach is the only answer. I am saying that ND's are no better than opportunistic vultures or maggots. Actually, I can't say maggots because they've been proven to be a real treatment alternative!! 👍

 

[MD Rapper]

My Grandmother had ovarian cancer and went to a MD and died. Maybe if she went to a ND she might still be living. There is a guy who practices near me that is an MD (internist). He cured his wife of cancer using only natural therapy (vitamins, herbs, etc.). Don't be so quick to think that the medical approach is the only answer.

Okay, you may be right. I am a firm believer that there is a such thing as natural medicine and that it has the potential to cure things that even modern medicine may not be able to. Eastern medicine has been used for centuries with lots of success and it IS being rediscovered. But my concern is ND's. They have yet to prove how any of what they do works (look at link for medscape article above). And how do you standardize a curriculum for natural healers? How do you tell the good ones form the bad ones? It's all one big gamble. In today's world of big business, everyone is quick to call themselves doctors to make some cash and gain some prestige. I'm just saying that we should be closely watching these individuals. Especially if they are abusing their power... for example, its a shame that they are calling themselves primary care/family practice physicians now.

 

[BackTalk]

They have yet to prove how any of what they do works (look at link for medscape article above). And how do you standardize a curriculum for natural healers? How do you tell the good ones form the bad ones? It's all one big gamble. In today's world of big business, everyone is quick to call themselves doctors to make some cash and gain some prestige. I'm just saying that we should be closely watching these individuals. Especially if they are abusing their power... for example, its a shame that they are calling themselves primary care/family practice physicians now.


I agree. We have had that problem concerning chiropractic education for years. Up until the last ten years the education varied quite a bit between schools. Like chiropractors, it will take time to figure out the good and the bad. I would imagine that ND will be a good adjunct to traditional care provided the herbs and medications don't interact. I think naturopathy has its place. Since medical school has a set standard I would probably feel more comfortable sending my patients to the MD I mentioned earlier. He practices both styles of medicine and knows each ones limitations. The problem is you do not have a lot of MD's that practice homeopathy or acupuncture along side traditional medicine.

I believe in most states ND is not a licensed profession. I'm in Illinois and I pretty sure there is no licensing for the ND. The medical society and chiropractic society are strong in this state so the ND will definitely have some work cut out for them.

We have chiropractors who also take on the role as PCP provider. I really do not see the point as we just do not have the tools (medications) to practice in that capacity. Someone comes to me with some funk I say "schedule an appointment with your MD).

 

[dancote]

Hello,

I am trying to decide between DO and ND school. My wife used an ND to cure her extremely aggressive breast cancer. They (the tumor board) didn't think she had much chance and, with three young children, half thought she would be better not doing chemo so she would have a better life as she died. She had 5 tumors removed and they had to leave in positive nodes and margins. In vain she used an ND we both respect. With the new diet and supplements she has been doing very well and the tests they have done have been all very promising(she still gets these done by her oncologist). We are hoping for the best.
One of the MDs I shadowed with told me that she would rather have been an ND. She encouraged me to look into it originally. I know another (DO) here who is incorporating natruopathic remedies and prefers them in most cases. If you read the book DO, it will show the original practice to be even more suspecious than the ND's tool bag.
I have been in contact with a 3rd year student at a ND medical school and her schooling sounds even more rigorous than some of the DO programs(from speaking to my cousins currently in DO school). I think that they are doing this in order to biuld their reputation. They have also started doing residency programs after the intense 4 year program they do.
I am not sure what I will end up doing, but I do have deep respect for both schoolings. And, like it or not, they are not going to go away because the public wants them. They are licensed in 13 states, the latest being CA with District of Columbia just passed this month. All 50 states are expected to be licensed by 2008.
-Dan

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Hello,

I am trying to decide between DO and ND school. My wife used an ND to cure her extremely aggressive breast cancer. They (the tumor board) didn't think she had much chance and, with three young children, half thought she would be better not doing chemo so she would have a better life as she died. She had 5 tumors removed and they had to leave in positive nodes and margins. In vain she used an ND we both respect. With the new diet and supplements she has been doing very well and the tests they have done have been all very promising(she still gets these done by her oncologist). We are hoping for the best.
One of the MDs I shadowed with told me that she would rather have been an ND. She encouraged me to look into it originally. I know another (DO) here who is incorporating natruopathic remedies and prefers them in most cases. If you read the book DO, it will show the original practice to be even more suspecious than the ND's tool bag.
I have been in contact with a 3rd year student at a ND medical school and her schooling sounds even more rigorous than some of the DO programs(from speaking to my cousins currently in DO school). I think that they are doing this in order to biuld their reputation. They have also started doing residency programs after the intense 4 year program they do.
I am not sure what I will end up doing, but I do have deep respect for both schoolings. And, like it or not, they are not going to go away because the public wants them. They are licensed in 13 states, the latest being CA with District of Columbia just passed this month. All 50 states are expected to be licensed by 2008.
-Dan

I think the biggest mistake for most people is that they don't go with what the believe.

Just go with what you believe in and not only will you cure your patients, but you will succeed financially as well. Whether it be DO, MD, ND, whatever.

 

[Cerbernator]

I'd like to find the naturopath that sold my dying grandmothe 2k worth of "ozone treatment". ****ing scum make a living living off the false hopes of the dying 😡 😡

 

[curlycity]

"Alternative" medicine = NOT medicine.

If something works, get it into a clinical trial, get a standardized dose, get an understanding of the mechanism if at all possible. Otherwise it's (possibly toxic) snake oil. This has been around since the beginning of time, and its current resurgence in popularity says a lot about the 'education' of our society. 😡

Now I'm going to have a cup of spearmint licorice root tea, yummy! Not magical, YUMMY! 😀

 

[rgporter]

I disagree because a DO still does essentially everything an MD does, they just throw in some "whole person" crap...

They do now, but that is not how it started. When I was applying to med school a good friend was matriculating at a DO school. He loaned me a history of Osteopathic medicine (The DO's of medicine, I think) as well as the biography of AJ Stills. I read them both. While I have nothing but respect for the DO's graduating today; in the beggining the DO's philosophy was very similar to the one that naturopaths currently profess, very shady.

 

[Cerbernator]

They do now, but that is not how it started. When I was applying to med school a good friend was matriculating at a DO school. He loaned me a history of Osteopathic medicine (The DO's of medicine, I think) as well as the biography of AJ Stills. I read them both. While I have nothing but respect for the DO's graduating today; in the beggining the DO's philosophy was very similar to the one that naturopaths currently profess, very shady.

I am not talking about the history of DO's though, I am talking DO's as they currently are. Personally, I think OMM is 80% BS and I think of the DO degree mainly as jsut a way to practice medicine with slightly lower stats than an MD (i am not judging DO's). So, I guess I agree with what you are saying exactly. DO started as crap and ND is crap

 

[Cerbernator]

"Alternative" medicine = NOT medicine.

If something works, get it into a clinical trial, get a standardized dose, get an understanding of the mechanism if at all possible. Otherwise it's (possibly toxic) snake oil. This has been around since the beginning of time, and its current resurgence in popularity says a lot about the 'education' of our society. 😡

Now I'm going to have a cup of spearmint licorice root tea, yummy! Not magical, YUMMY! 😀

Exactly! This is what I try to tell my stupid granola hippy friends (ok granola hippy friend)

 

[Shinken]

They do now, but that is not how it started. When I was applying to med school a good friend was matriculating at a DO school. He loaned me a history of Osteopathic medicine (The DO's of medicine, I think) as well as the biography of AJ Stills. I read them both. While I have nothing but respect for the DO's graduating today; in the beggining the DO's philosophy was very similar to the one that naturopaths currently profess, very shady.

rgporter, you're comparing the beginnings of osteopathic medicine to what medicine is today.

Please remember that when osteopathic medicine was created, allopathic medicine consisted of bleeding or blistering patients to "eliminate all evil bodily humours" and prescribing arsenic and mercury-based "medications." ALL medical persuasions were shady in the late 1800's. Osteopathy and allopathy changed their ways and became more scientific.

Don't compare the beginnings of osteopathic medicine with modern-day allopathic practice, but compare it to allopathic medicine in the 1800's.

 

[rgporter]

rgporter, you're comparing the beginnings of osteopathic medicine to what medicine is today...

No I was comparing where Osteopathic medicine started with current naturopathy. And I told you I had nothing but respect for today's DO's, chill out.
It's not really important though. What sucks is that in order to survive Osteopaths were forced to include advances made in mainstream medicine, naturopaths have no motive for advance. People today are so gullible, they believe whatever fad is going around. All a Naturopath needs is a toolbox full of whatever crap the holywood croud is into and people will flock to them. Allopaths and Osteopaths evolved together for the most part, well Osteopaths followed where the Allopaths led. But the end result was two valid forms of health care.
Naturopaths will still be selling snake oil in a hundred years because the world is full of idiots, and they have cornered that market share.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Who really wants to become one? Is there any oppurtunities after gaining the degree that are even worth spending 4 years in school? I don't believe I have ever heard of a ND except for this forum.

I have noticed that they do alot of classes that seem similar to MD/DO's, but what are their actually practicing rights?

If naturopaths ever become fully recognized and reimbursable PCPs under private, state and federal programs, I will begin practicing law immediately, trying to reverse this travesty.

JH

 

[JohnHolmes]

Hello,


I am not sure what I will end up doing, but I do have deep respect for both schoolings. And, like it or not, they are not going to go away because the public wants them. They are licensed in 13 states, the latest being CA with District of Columbia just passed this month. All 50 states are expected to be licensed by 2008.
-Dan

I guarantee this will not happen in Va. This is a truly scary prospect from a patient safety issue. Speaking of which ... I have a good witch doctor friend from Africa who is looking to open her own practice in CA...I'll pass on the good news 👍

 

[dancote]

Hello,
This is a great topic because it is a current one. I think it is important to remember that a lot of what patients find lacking in the current system has to do with the apparent arrogance of the doctors. I often hear that they "didn't listen to what I had to say". This alienates patients and turns them toward other forms of treatment. I believe we must have an open mind and not immediately condeme a form of treatment that seems foreign to us. It is also important that the current Naturopaths provide and conduct acceptable research into ALL of their treatment modalities. From my investigations, it appears that they are doing just that at this time. These are 4 year medical schools and not to be associated with the more common certificate naturopath who may only have a mailorder type 'degree'. The goal is to elliminate this form of ND with no formal medical training through licensing. The 4 year schooled doctors have 7 years graduate schooling and now are starting residencies as well. They have gross anatomy, etc,etc. A significant percent of the current students in these programs are already MDs and DOs! (they are doing a 2 year postgraduate degree). These doctors are very much desired by many patients eager to get to the root cause of their health problems and who don't just want to treat their symptoms. The most common 'treatments' being simple lifestyle changes that the current medical doctors don't stress or seem to have time to discuss.
It should also be noted that their are plenty of 'horror' stories the public hears coming from their experiences with MDs and Dos. One MD I took my daughter to took polaroid photos of us together and, because the photo was out of focus, he said our family was out of harmony. Now that's an MD! A DO that I work with in town uses energy healing that he learned in the S. American jungle from medicine men! He is one of the most respected and successful (in terms of healing) doctors in this city. Another in a neighboring town uses acupuncture and has impressed the acedemic doctor I know at our local hospital with his success. I think the bottom line difference might be the attention paid to the patient.
Remember too that all doctors(md, do, nd) are only human. All can fall into quackery and all can make mistakes. For example, a couple in a city I used to live in were both diagnosed with cancer. The man had a brain tumor and he decided he would try a traditional herbal remedy. The wife would have nothing to do with it. When the husband went to surgery, they found no tumor. When the wife was having radiation treatment they accidentally treated her 2x longer than intended and she died of the infection that resulted. The drug/surgery age we live in is not perfect and we should not act as though it is for exam:

In 1994, an estimated 2,216,000 (1,721,000 to 2,711,000) hospitalized patients had serious adverse drug reactions (ADRs) and 106,000 (76,000 to 137,000) had fatal ADRs, making these reactions between the fourth and sixth leading cause of death.

Fatal ADRs accounted for 0.32 percent (95 percent confidence interval (CI), 0.23 percent to 0.41 percent) of hospitalized patients.

JAMA April 15, 1998;279(15):1200-5

It seems that all we do when I am in family practice preceptorships is adjust and switch drugs back and forth trying to control the multitude of side effects. Patients are getting sick of this and want other options. And as for research, that should also be looked at with an open and questioning mind and we should remember that many of the paper writers stand to gain financially from the sale of the drug. For example, my wife worked in research at a major midwestern university. During studies on animals the directors would frequently tell them to remove individual animals from the study for bogus reasons. My wife knew full well it was to reduce negative effects of the treatment. One man working with the effects of a certain chemical was told to rewrite his paper on the effects because they were all negative and the University wouldn't publish it until he did this. They recieved large grants from these companies of course.
I guess what I want to conclude with is that I believe there should be more than one option for patients. All modes should be continually regulated and researched ethically. Focus should be returned to the patient and as MDs and DOs we need to have an open mind. AS a final example, there is a chinese doctor my wife goes to. At first I was very upset and we got into some fights over it, but she brought me a video about him and made me watch it. It had a Mayo clinic MD on it who is working with this Chinese man and trying to learn through a study why the man's system works. This chinese doctor was able to remove tumors and to find tumors all varified by this MD. Now should we be arrogant and dismiss this as unscientific or be open as this doctor is and find out for ourselves?
Finially, I thought this was interesting in defense Naturopathy:

"The doctor of the future will give no medicine but will interest his patients in the care of the human frame, in diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease" Thomas A. Edison

Respectfully,

-Dan

 

[OzDDS]

In Arizona and California, NDs can do 95% of what an FP does. They can prescribe ALL medicines with no MD oversight.

SCARY!!! 😱

 

[OzDDS]

SCARY!!! 😱

Combine this trend that we are seeing with Kerry/Edwards Universial health care for all.. and of course when you have money grubbing malpractice lawyers and insurance companies writing our health policy. They are going to get the lowest common denominator to provide health care to all.. Sounds like a great future we all have!!! 😱 😱

I'm not opposed to providing more universal health care in this country.. But people come on.. this is not the way to do it!!! Even "IF" they they decide to give you a "choice" of providers. I don't want my only choices to be an "MD equivilant": Nurse practicionr, Doctor of Naturalpathy, or the like. whoever the goverment can pay less to do the same job.. and whatever "allied healthworkers" are willing to "attempt" to do the same job and undercut physicans for contracts. 👎

 

[willthatsall]

For those considering a ND, you might think about stepping up to a really prestigious degree like Chiropractic Assistant.

I skipped the rest of the thread, but this might be one of the funniest lines I've ever read on SDN.