ND script privs

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NDs very quietly passed a law this year allowing them to prescribe in Ca with little or no limitations. For those of you who do not know a ND is a naturopathist... What do people think about this?

😀
 
I sense a large increase in prescriptions for medicinal mairjuana. Those in Ca may want to stock up of twinkies and cupcakes.
 
psisci said:
NDs very quietly passed a law this year allowing them to prescribe in Ca with little or no limitations. For those of you who do not know a ND is a naturopathist... What do people think about this?

😀

Excuse my ignorance on this topic, but I have never heard of a "naturopathist" and obviously, I don?t know much about their training.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that they have passed the law quietly if some one in legislation (hopefully after significant substantial research) believes that they have what it takes to practice medicine?

This post is not for or against them just for me to gain some education on the matter.
 
I am not for or against them either. It passed quiety because there are very few ND's around, but one of them is rich and made huge contributions to certain folks to grease the wheels. There are probably 1000 psychologists to every ND in Ca.

😎
 
I believe the training for a Doctor of Naturopathy (ND), not to be confused with the Doctor of Nursing (also ND), requires essentially pre-med requirements for admission. The following is a sample curriculum from Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine.
Quarter 1 Fall/Spring
NTMD 605 Philosophy of Naturopathic Medicine & History of Medicine 2
PSYC 604 Healthy Communication (2)
ANAT 603 Regional Anatomy I / Lab (5.5)/(1.5)
ANAT 606 Embryology (3)
ANAT 610 Microscopic Anatomy/Lab (3/1)
BIOC 605 Medical Biochemistry I (6)
HMEO 620 Intro to Homeopathic Medicine (2)
Total 26 Credits

Quarter 2 Winter/Summer
NTMD Physician Heal Thyself (2)
ANAT 604 Regional Anatomy II/Lab (6.5)/(2)
PHYS 605 Cell Function and Organ Systems I (5)/(1)
BIOC 606 Medical Biochemistry II (6)
NUTR 620 History of Nutrition and Diet/Detoxification (2)
Total 24.5 Credits

Quarter 3 Spring/Fall
BOTM 640 Historical Use of Plant as Medicines 2
ANAT 627 Neuroanatomy/Lab (5.5) (1.5)
MGEN 607 Medical Genetics 2
MICR 640 Microbiology/Lab (3)/(1)
PHYS 610 Cell Function & Organ Systems II (4)/(.5)
RSCH 810 Basic Concepts of Research 1
PHYS 629 Endocrinology 4
PHMD 605 Touch as Treatment/Lab (1)/(.5)

Total 26 Credits
Quarter 4 Summer/Winter
JURI 720 Jurisprudence 20
HYDR 615 Principles of Hydrotherapy (1.5)
PHYS 614 Immunology (3)
PSYC 660 Fundamentals of Mind-Body Medicine (2)
OMND 605 Theory and Fundamentals of Oriental Medicine (2)
PUBH 620 Epidemiology (3)
PHYS 615 Cell Function and Organ System III (4)/(.5)
PHMD 710 Introduction to Physical Medicine (1.5)
NUTR 640 Food Analysis (2)
RSCH 830 Conducting Clinical Research (1)
Total 22.5 Credits

Quarter 5 Fall/Spring
PATH 625 Pathophysiology & Disease Process (4)
PHMD 735 Physiotherapy Modalities (2)
PSYC 740 Counseling Theories & Practice (2)
PUBH 670 Concepts & Practices of Public Health (2)
OMND 610 Traditional Chinese Medicine Diagnosis (3)
BOTM 720 Southwest Botanicals (2)
PHMD 740 NMT Assessment & Application I/Lab (2)/(1)
HYDR 770 Advanced Hydrotherapy Techniques 2
BOTM 680 Pharmacy of Botanical Medicine (2)
NUTR 680 Integrative Nutritional Biochemistry (3)
RSCH 860 Evaluation of Research (1)
Total 26

Quarter 6 Winter/Summer
PATH 635 Organ Systems & Disease I (4)
PHDX 650 Physical Assessment I (3)/(1)
LBDX 650 Assessment of Laboratory Techniques I (2)
RDDX 650 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment I (2)
CACR 650 Clinical Assessment/Case Review I (6)
CLLP 651 Clinical Lab Procedures (1)/(.5)
OMND 705 Meridians & Points I (3)
PHMD 770 NMT Assessment and Application II (3)/(1)
ETHC Medical Ethics (2)
Total 27.5

Quarter 7 Spring/Fall
CACR 710 Clinical Assessment/Case Review II (6)
RDDX 710 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment II (2)
PHDX 710 Physical Assessment II (3)/(1)
LBDX 710 Assessment of Laboratory Techniques II (2)
CLLP 711 Medical Procedures (1)/(.5)
NUTR 730 Nutrition Diagnostics & Treatment Protocol (2)
OMND 710 Meridians & Points II (3)
PHAR 700 Drug Classifications (4)
PATH 710 Organ Systems & Disease II (4)
Total 27.5 Credits

Quarter 8 Summer/Winter
CACR 730 Clinical Assessment/Case Review III (6)
RDDX 730 Diagnostic Techniques & Assessment III (2)
PHDX 730 Physical Assessment III (3)/(1)
LBDX 730 Assessment of Lab Techniques III (2)
CLLP 731 Intravenous Therapy (2)
CTNG 740 Clinical Entry Assessment (3)
BOTM 743 Naturopathic Materia Medica, Phrmacognosy & Therapy I (2)
OMND 800 Traditional Chinese Medicine Pathology (3)
PHAR 710 Drug Classifications & Toxicology (4)
MNGT 760 Practice Management (1)
HMEO 730 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repertory & Case Taking I (3)
Total 30 Credits

Quarter 9 Fall/Spring
BOTM 744 Naturopathic Therapeutics, Materia Medica, Pharmacognosy II (2)
ERMD 740 Emergency Medicine I (2)
CLSC 764 Pediatrics (3)
CLSC 762 EENT (2)
CLSC 763 Neurology (2)
GRND 764 Grand Rounds (2)
OMND 812 Acupuncture Techniques (1)/(.5)
HMEO 750 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repetory & Case Taking II (2)
CLTR 760 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)
Clinical Posts (3)
Total 23.5 Credits

Quarter 10 Winter/Summer
OMND 815 Oriental Medicine - Case Analysis (2)
HMEO 770 Homeopathic Materia Medica, Repetory & Case Taking III (3)
CLSC 771 Obstetrics (3)
CLSC 790 Gynecology (3)
CLSC 773 Urology (including men's health) (3)
CLSC 790 Geriatrics (2)
CLSC 791 Viral Disorders/HIV (2)
GRND 784 Grand Rounds (2)
ERMD 760 Emergency Management II (3)
CLTR Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)
Total 27 Credits

Quarter 11 Spring/Fall
NUTR 752 Nutritional Needs Across the Lifespan (2)
BOTM 817 Naturopathic Materia Medica, Pharmacognosy, & Therapeutics III (2)
HMEO 810 Patient Management and Case Taking (2)
MSRG 810 Minor Surgery (2)/(.5)
PUBH 760 Environmental Medicine (2)
CLSC 812 Dermatology (2)
CLSC 813 Endocrinology (2)
GRND 814 Grand Rounds (2)
MNGT 801 Business Practice Management II (2)
OMND 865 Oriental Medicine - Case Management (2)
CLTR 815 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)
Total 25 Credots

Quarter 12 Summer/Winter
NUTR 810 Eating Disorders and Prescriptions in Addictive Behaviors (2)
BOTM 831 Botanical Medicine Therapeutics - Developing Clinical Proficiency (2)
PSYC 835 Practicum in Mind-Body Healing (2)
CLSC 831 Cardiology (2)
CLSC 832 Pulmonology (2)
CLSC 833 Gastroenterology (2)
GRND 834 Grand Rounds (2)
RSCH 880 Research Project (1)
PHAR 780 Drug Comparisons & Detoxification (3)
CLTR 830 Clinical Training (2 shifts) (4)
Total 22 Credits

Quarter 13 Fall/Spring
MNGT 802 Business Practice Management III (3)
MSRG 890 Advanced Techniques in Minor Surgery (1)/(.5)
CLSC 861 Rheumatology (2)
CLSC 881 Oncology (2)
GRND 864 Grand Rounds (2)
PHMD 820 Sports Medicine (4)
CLTR 850 Clinical Training (3 Shifts) (6)
Total 20.5 Credits

Quarter 14 Winter/Summer
NTMD 880 Analysis & Integration of Naturopathic Philosophy & Practice (2)
GRND 884 Case Management (2)
MNGT 803 Business Practice Management IV (2)
PSYC 860 Intervention with Transitional Traumatic States of Mental Health (2)
HMEO 862 Advanced Case Management (2)
CLTR Clinical Training (5 Shifts) (10)
Total 20 Credits

Quarter 15 Spring/Fall
GRND 881 Grand Rounds (1)
CLTR Clinical Training (7Shifts) (14)
Total 15 Credits

Quarter 16 Summer/Winter
GRND 883 Grand Rounds (1)
CLTR Clinical Training (7 Shifts) (14)
Total 15 Credits

Totals for 16-Quarter Degree Program
Classroom/Lab Instruction 315 Quarter Credits
Clinical Training 63 Quarter Credits

Grand Total 4575

The beginning coursework appears to be very scientifically/medically based and transitions into unproven philosophies of homeopathy, oriental medicine, iridology, etc. This is reminiscent of Chiropractic. Both disciplines begin training their students in the basic sciences and transition into unproven methods based on tradition or absurd foundations. How would you feel about a Chiropractor prescribing? Scary thought. On the upside, a surprising amount of students in ND programs already have an MD.
 
😕 Are these programs approved or accredited by the AMA? How do other MDs feel about this ND? I am assuming that they believe that they are substandard. Anyhow, anyone with prescription rights should be scared tremendously when prescribing to another human being.
 
PsyDRxPnow said:
😕 Are these programs approved or accredited by the AMA? How do other MDs feel about this ND? I am assuming that they believe that they are substandard. Anyhow, anyone with prescription rights should be scared tremendously when prescribing to another human being.

I find this interesting coming from you, PsyDRxPnow, considering the first couple years of an ND program are very similar to an MD program - very heavily basic science oriented. It does diverge considerably, but I did see OB/GYN, endocrinologyand grand rounds, among others, which puts them in the hospital with all types of patients. This is all in addition to the pre-med requirements before entering such programs.

I know a couple clinical PhDs, and PsyD, and it would scare the crap out of me if they started prescribing. They are among the smartest and kindest people I know, but they absolutely do not have the type of basic science knowledge required for this responsablility.

You open the door a little, and you get all kinds of people asking for (and getting) RxP. PsyDRxPnow, you should be happy that some other profession other than MD, received RxP, or do you not live in Cali?
 
don't let the medical titles of the ND coursework fool you into thinking that it is a legitimate alternative to traditional western medicine


the AMA absolutely does not approve of naturopathy. The AMA considers it quackery and its existence as a health risk


NDs do not get privileges in Allopathic and Osteopathic hospitals. I imagine their clinicals are done at the school's clinic
 
chicoborja said:
don't let the medical titles of the ND coursework fool you into thinking that it is a legitimate alternative to traditional western medicine


the AMA absolutely does not approve of naturopathy. The AMA considers it quackery and its existence as a health risk
The AMA considers a lot of things quackery. It is there first and foremost to protect its own, as it should be. Other organisations are there to protect and promote their own members.

NDs do not get privileges in Allopathic and Osteopathic hospitals. I imagine their clinicals are done at the school's clinic
Agreed. But hypothyroidism remains hypothyroidism no matter who sees it or where. So now we are here to dictate other people in their choice of healthcare providers?
 
allowing ND's the valuable tool of prescribing meds will help them to better treat their pts.

wouldn't you also think an ND would *NOT* be as likely to overmedicate a pt into a functional mess or give away freebies just cause the pt asked for it?
 
hightide said:
allowing ND's the valuable tool of prescribing meds will help them to better treat their pts.

wouldn't you also think an ND would *NOT* be as likely to overmedicate a pt into a functional mess or give away freebies just cause the pt asked for it?
Allowing *anyone* to prescribe is going to let them treat patients better, not just ND's. The problem is that very few professions are adequately trained to prescribe & manage medication, and nobody I know includes naturopaths on that list.
 
this prescription thing just went way out of the hand. ones with proper skills to diagose and treat, and have tremendous knowledge in pharmacology pharmacotherapy, pharmacokinetics should be the only ones should be given the rights, so MD/DO, DMD, DDS, DPM, DVM (only to animals), (PA, NP - under supervision of MD/DO only) and that's it! no one else. IMHO.
 
Frequently, when purists write that only MD, DO, DVM, DDS/DMD, and DPM!?! should have prescriptive rights, it throws me off a bit. DPM should have prescriptive rights but not OD!?! It's common knowledge on this board what a joke DPM school is in regards to admission requirements. Podiatry schools will let applicants in w/o a 3.0 even! OD schools, on the other hand, are far more competitive. I realize they are not quite as competitve as dental school but I imagine they are as competitive as pharmacy schools. The point I'm trying to make is that OD schools require the same pre-reqs (if not more) than DPM schools. The quality of applicants are usually far better. I realize this doesn't equate to what they have learned after they graduate from their respective professional schools but it just seems a little strange to me how accepting everyone is off the DPM's prescribing rights when many applicants are those who would be stuck between choosing DPM or DC because of their low GPAs and that's a no brainer as to which one they should choose.
 
chicoborja, the fact is that DPMs have the medical training to perscribe rxs safely. Take a look at the curriculum + mandatory hospital based residencies of 2-4 years.
The admissions for DPM are not as competitive as MD/DO, but you still have to graduate and pass board exams. Bottom line is undergrad gpa doesnt determine if one will be a competant doc. I think the gpa for podiatry school admission should be higher than what it is now. The problem is that in order for the schools to stay afloat they cannot be as picky as the MDs. The overall gpa for DPM students is 3.1 with a avg mcat 21.
BTW some offshore MDs schoos accept applicants with 2.5gpa and lower, but they still have to pass the curruculum and board exams.
The point is that if ODs have the training to write rxs safely then they should be allowed to, but as of now they dont.
 
if you have the proper training, know the implications of the improper drug use, and knows what drugs to use for what disease state, then you should be given the rights. the competitive admission stats are not the qualifications to who should be given the rights to. people should really realize how dangerous improper usage of drugs can be. do you know how many drugs that has a such a narrorw theraputic window, if you screw up a dose by a tiny bit you can kill the patient? come on now. this is not a funny stuff here. i am also a firm believer that pharmacist should never be given right to prescribe. even though we as pharmacist will have most training regarding drugs but we do not have the knowledge of diagosing. same reason should be applied to all other degrees.
 
cg2a93 said:
The point is that if ODs have the training to write rxs safely then they should be allowed to, but as of now they dont.


As of now, they do! In the majority of states, ODs can prescribe topical medications and I believe in some states they can prescribe a limited formulary of oral medications.
 
cg2a93 said:
chicoborja, the fact is that DPMs have the medical training to perscribe rxs safely. Take a look at the curriculum + mandatory hospital based residencies of 2-4 years.
The admissions for DPM are not as competitive as MD/DO, but you still have to graduate and pass board exams. Bottom line is undergrad gpa doesnt determine if one will be a competant doc. I think the gpa for podiatry school admission should be higher than what it is now. The problem is that in order for the schools to stay afloat they cannot be as picky as the MDs. The overall gpa for DPM students is 3.1 with a avg mcat 21.
BTW some offshore MDs schoos accept applicants with 2.5gpa and lower, but they still have to pass the curruculum and board exams.
The point is that if ODs have the training to write rxs safely then they should be allowed to, but as of now they dont.
Agreed. The notion that prescriptive authority should be given to a profession based on its students' incoming GPA is well beyond absurd.
 
OD's can prescribe meds in Ca, as of 2 years ago. They can also perform limited surgical procedures. 🙂
 
psisci said:
OD's can prescribe meds in Ca, as of 2 years ago. They can also perform limited surgical procedures. 🙂
Not to get too deep into the OD/OMD affair, but with optometry's *rapidly* expanding scope of practice in some areas, I think the profession has some hard questions to answer as to whether its training adequately prepares clinicians for the new ground its political lobbies are tirelessly striving to clear.
 
aphistis said:
Not to get too deep into the OD/OMD affair, but with optometry's *rapidly* expanding scope of practice in some areas, I think the profession has some hard questions to answer as to whether its training adequately prepares clinicians for the new ground its political lobbies are tirelessly striving to clear.

But too deep into the "OD/OMD affair" is exactly where you end up when you make comments about it. Fact is the questions you refer to are not that hard. OD's training more then prepares us to provide topical/oral tx for ocular disease. Period. This is well established. Perhaps you are referring to the OMD claims of OD's lobbying to perform intraocular surgery. All I can say is don't believe the hype. These are trumped up attempts by OMD's to cow the public into limiting what OD's are able to practice. Turf war is all this is.
 
PBEA said:
But too deep into the "OD/OMD affair" is exactly where you end up when you make comments about it. Fact is the questions you refer to are not that hard. OD's training more then prepares us to provide topical/oral tx for ocular disease. Period. This is well established. Perhaps you are referring to the OMD claims of OD's lobbying to perform intraocular surgery. All I can say is don't believe the hype. These are trumped up attempts by OMD's to cow the public into limiting what OD's are able to practice. Turf war is all this is.
Thanks for responding. To be honest, it's more an intellectual curiosity to me than anything else, since you eye folks play in a different sandbox. What does a typical OD student's pharmacology education/training look like?
 
aphistis said:
Wow. What I'd give to have a 30-week school year. Maybe I chose the wrong profession. 😛

Yes, the first year was 30 weeks, it was pretty nice. Of course that was only the first year.
 
The only thing worse than an ND getting prescribing rights is a psychologist. Neither are trained for the awesome responsibility prescribing requires.

IT IS NOT just the taking of a pharmacology class which gives MD/DO's the knowledge required, but the years (I repeat, years) of supervised training throughout medical school and residency.

The psychologists notion that they are "well trained" is correct in every aspect EXCEPT pharmacology.

The natriupathic "doctor" (this term "doctor" is questionable at best) receives absolutely no pharmacologically related training.

I have to agree with one of the early posts.....That the increase in the amount of pharmacy related deaths to due prescribing rights of these so called "doctors" will eventually bring this travesty to light. And will hopefully open the eyes of the public and government officials who are bowing to the powerful lobbying firms for these groups.
 
I love it when newbies post ignorant stuff!!

I used to as well....now it's just annoying.... 😡
 
Based on my experience in alternative medicine, "naturopathists" are the technicians that staff the "Naturopathic Physician's" clinic-hydrotherapy, exercise therapy, massage therapy, herbal therapy, etC. The "Naturopathist" or "Naturopathic Therapist" actually carries out the order, as orderd, by the "Naturopathic Physician." The "Naturopathist" is a clinical worker. The "Naturopathic Medical Doctor" is a diagnosician and he/she prescribes the therapies. The "Naturopathist" does specific hands on therapies as ordered. Also, the "Naturopathic Physician" may be his/her own "..ist" by doing the work of his/her own prescriptions or "orders." "ist" means "One who DOES" the work. Sometimes it means, One who 'believes' in a certain philosophy.
 
juicycadaver The only thing worse than an ND getting prescribing rights is a psychologist. Neither are trained for the awesome responsibility prescribing requires.

IT IS NOT just the taking of a pharmacology class which gives MD/DO's the knowledge required, but the years (I repeat, years) of supervised training throughout medical school and residency.
Oh please ... so where were you when PA/NPs were getting their prescription pads based on their couple of years of training?
Stop trying to make prescribing medication sound like it requires sort of divine intervention.

It would seem the greatest travesty is that an MD who, yes acquires a broad based foundation but then spends those years (repeat, years) specializing, is nevertheless is permitted unrestricted, unlimited authority to prescribe any kind of medication as long as s/he holds a valid license. By all means, let's have pediatricians, GPs, internists, and OB/GYNs prescribe the most psychotropics because that is so what they know.

Yes, it could be argued that psychologists -- this minute -- are not prepared ("off the shelf") to prescribe a limited formulary of psychotropic medications. But there has been proposed an extensive training program -- much more involved than PA/NP pharmacology training -- to bring psychologists up to that level.

The resistance to psychologists joining the prescription pad club is just turf defense.

Which raises the question of how naturopaths in CA were able to "quietly" get unlimited authority for prescriptions when psychologists are being fought tooth and nail for a restricted authority.

More puzzling, as the underlying philosophy of naturopathy is the utilization of natural therapeutics, why did they want the authority in the first place?
 
DPM should have prescriptive rights but not OD!?! It's common knowledge on this board what a joke DPM school is in regards to admission requirements. Podiatry schools will let applicants in w/o a 3.0 even! OD schools, on the other hand, are far more competitive.

Just bcoz OD has higher admission standards than DPM, you think, it shud be allowed Prescription rights. So tomorrow if bychance MD standards go down then ND and getting admission in ND bcomes very harder than MD. Do you then want ND to get prescription rights just bcoz its more harder to get in than MD.

You want ODs to get prescription rights bcoz they have a very hard admission requirements than DPM (who has prescription rights). What kind of an argument is this:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: if you take this to a court of law and argue for your prescription rights based on this statement. everyone will be laughing on the floor.

Admission standards are a different thing and profession is a different thing. Just bcoz admission standards of a certain professional school are lower, it doenst mean the merit of that profession or scope of practice is lower.

Prescription rights are given based on the profession needs. DPMs perform surgeries, treat various foot disorders,etc and they even have hospital privedleges. They need Prescription rights so that they can prescribe to their patients. I dont know abt OD, so i woudnt comment abt it. may be they need it and they should be given it. But asking for prescription rights just bcoz they have harder admission standards than other profession really doesnt make any sense.
 
I think the best comprise is to have a physician that is trained like an MD, DO & ND, however that will never happen. 200 hundred years ago MDs were like NDs today. Medical science has advanced much since then. However IMHO they rely to heavily on pharmaceuticals for treatment. The same is going for psychologists who want to prescribe. Will it might be helpful too many might take the easy road and use that as their primary form of treatment. People go to NDs because they don't want to be given a drug and rushed out the office.

My best friend is a ND in Arizona. Most of his patients come to him after they have failed to find treatment with their MDs. For example, he had a patient the other month come in. The doctors could not find what was wrong with him. Spasms, irregular heartbeat etc. My friend ran a very specialized type of magnesium test, and that was it. The MDs tested magnesium too but their test were not as sensitive.

He has treated people with other conditions, most notably fatigue and insomnia. Most of these people came to him with boxes of pills their MDs put them on. Most of these people were just over stressed individuals. However their doctors gave them sleeping pills, anti-depressants and the like. He basically cleaned them up, got them off all that, put them on nutrition and exercise plans and now there fine. He has a pretty good business, but for the first six or seven years he had to work hard. It's not like an MD or DO who can get a job in a hospital or the military after school. There were some hospital positions but they were far and few between. Like any physician he had to build a reputation.

Many insurances accept him. Arizona is very liberal about these things. That why you had a lot of DOs go there in the ‘70s.

My friend went as a pre-med to the University of Chicago and was in the top 5% of his class and was accepted to six medical schools and four Osteopath schools. He applied to two Naturopath schools but really did not know anything about them, but they sounded interesting. He went to visit all the schools over a period of three weeks and liked Osteopath schools and Naturopaths schools the best. He shadowed a couple of NDs and he feel in love with it. In the end he chose the Naturopath school because he felt that was the course he wanted to take.

He will be the first to tell you that he has different training than a MD or DO. He does have the ability do diagnose, however there is certain things he can't treat. If you went to your GP who is an MD, is he going to give you a knee replacement? If you go to a cardiologist is he going to do brain surgery? Is a dermatologist going to delivery a baby? While every MD or DO has received training on these things to a certain point, it is not their specialties. When my friend has a case beyond his scope, he refer its to a MD or DO, just as ANY other competent MD, DO, ND, DPM, DC, OD or anybody else would do.

He likes the idea of prescription privileges to a point (he can prescribe). A positive it would be able to give a better overall treatment of his patients. Sometime a patient needs an antibiotic or an antiviral. It would also give his profession more credibility. The down side is that naturopathy might take the same course osteopathy took by become more pharmaceutical orientated. How many Osteopaths do OMT? Not many. Call and ask one, they'll tell you. Look on this forum too.

I am not anti-med. However can anyone disagree with me that we are becoming an overmedicated society? Look at all the people that pop pain relievers all day. You see that commercial that says "Had to carry the groceries and hurt my back, took one pill. Had to listen to my kid's band practice, took another pill. Now I just take Aleve and I feel great."

Will you ever hear a commercial say, "Had a bad back, neck hurt and found out I had a bad posture and I fixed it with postural retraining. Now I am great!" or " I was feeling depressed, scared and sad. I discovered I had issues in my life I ignored and I confronted them and know I am better than before!" I doubt these will be airing soon.

As far as the AMA being against NDs, well look at what they did to DOs. (Get The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America, by Norman Gevitz, one of the best books I have ever read.) DOs rolled over and now there really is no reason to have separate programs since most DOs never practice Osteopathic medicine.

What do NDs need to be better? Better residency training. More training about pharmaceuticals. More interaction with MDs & DOs. Basically more clinical training. Things like that. In the end they are just like MDs or DOs, they got into medicine to help people.
 
I think this may win the, "Back from the Dead" award. :laugh:

-t

I especially like people quoting a post from two years ago and arguing against it. Do people realize how old this thread is?
 
I especially like people quoting a post from two years ago and arguing against it. Do people realize how old this thread is?

"There was a silly damn bird called a phoenix back before Christ, every few hundred years he built a pyre and burnt himself up. He must have been first cousin to Man. But every time he burnt himself up he sprang out of the ashes, he got himself born all over again"

Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451
 
"There was a silly damn bird called a phoenix back before Christ, every few hundred years he built a pyre and burnt himself up. He must have been first cousin to Man. But every time he burnt himself up he sprang out of the ashes, he got himself born all over again"

Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451

When he returned did he beat a point to death?
 
"There was a silly damn bird called a phoenix back before Christ, every few hundred years he built a pyre and burnt himself up. He must have been first cousin to Man. But every time he burnt himself up he sprang out of the ashes, he got himself born all over again"

Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451

When he returned did he beat a point to death?
 
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