Need advice for 2011 match

[redbookfan]

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Hello SDN'ers,

Needed some advice. I am a DO student applying for psychiatry residency through ERAS this year.

My undergraduate and medical school records are pretty strong and I have an extensive CV with various extracurricular involvements, leadership, and activities. I also have good LORs and overall, I think my application is strong besides one thing. Unfortunately, I failed a major exam for the first time last year and that was COMLEX Step 2 (written board exam) but fortunately, I was determined to retake and pass the exam right in time for applications to residency so I did pass my second attempt in August. Thank goodness and that was a HUGE relief! But at the same time, my failed attempt worries me when it comes to match time.

I have more MD interviews compared to the DO interviews, and I would really love to give the MD match a try because it has some of my preferred choices.....but do you think my failed exam attempt is going to hurt me in the MD match (as a DO student) ? Do you think that at least 9-12 programs would be enough to rank in the MD match to have a good chance of matching? My gut feeling is telling me to do MD match but I am scared.

Out of the DO programs, my choices are John Peter Smith in Texas, Henry Ford in Detroit, Millcreek in Erie (Pennsylvania), and Arrowhead (in California).

The DO match rank order list is due next week, but honestly, my gut feeling is telling me to do the MD match and my family thinks I should do the MD match because of more options location wise and program wise.

Do you think I am fine as far as dropping the DO match and just doing the MD match instead? Do you think the failed exam attempt is going to play a big role when the programs rank me post-interview?

Would appreciate any insight. Thank you for your time and take care, everybody.

 

[silas2642]

Tough question; as you know psych isn't very competitive but seems to have been more difficult to match into the last couple of years, as evidenced by the increasing avg board scores and paucity of unfilled spots. What does your dean(s) think of your chances of matching into psych? Do you have an adviser you can talk to who knows you well?

I would think there are other things to consider as well-- how did you do on your second COMLEX 2-- did you barely squeak by or did you kill it? How was your COMLEX 1 score (i.e. can you show that your failing board score was just a fluke?). I would say that unless you can provide a good explanation, your board scores are definitely going to hurt you. Residencies want to know that you're going to be able to pass the boards without too much trouble.

What programs did you interview at and did you get any good post-interview feedback from the program directors? This is really soft information, but if you have a PD who is like, "we would love to have you and hope to see you next year..." that's a little more comforting than, "thank you for interviewing here good luck in life..."

There is a great guy/gal here who is also a DO; didn't match into psych-- peppy. I would pm him/her to ask for any recs.

 

[ScienceMind]

Hello SDN'ers,

Needed some advice. I am a DO student applying for psychiatry residency through ERAS this year.

My undergraduate and medical school records are pretty strong and I have an extensive CV with various extracurricular involvements, leadership, and activities. I also have good LORs and overall, I think my application is strong besides one thing. Unfortunately, I failed a major exam for the first time last year and that was COMLEX Step 2 (written board exam) but fortunately, I was determined to retake and pass the exam right in time for applications to residency so I did pass my second attempt in August. Thank goodness and that was a HUGE relief! But at the same time, my failed attempt worries me when it comes to match time.

I have more MD interviews compared to the DO interviews, and I would really love to give the MD match a try because it has some of my preferred choices.....but do you think my failed exam attempt is going to hurt me in the MD match (as a DO student) ? Do you think that at least 9-12 programs would be enough to rank in the MD match to have a good chance of matching? My gut feeling is telling me to do MD match but I am scared.

Out of the DO programs, my choices are John Peter Smith in Texas, Henry Ford in Detroit, Millcreek in Erie (Pennsylvania), and Arrowhead (in California).

The DO match rank order list is due next week, but honestly, my gut feeling is telling me to do the MD match and my family thinks I should do the MD match because of more options location wise and program wise.

Do you think I am fine as far as dropping the DO match and just doing the MD match instead? Do you think the failed exam attempt is going to play a big role when the programs rank me post-interview?

Would appreciate any insight. Thank you for your time and take care, everybody.

I think that you should go with MD match, especially if you are thinking about pursuing a fellowship after residency. If you received interview invites to that many programs, and you are going to consider ranking 9-12 programs, then you have a realistic shot at matching. Failing a step is not the end of the world and it happens. The programs that you applied to obviously realized this when they sent you interview invites and you still were invited. I would say to not over look that fact. Now, you have to decide how the DO programs would rank if you combined them with the MD options. If a program would be your top 3, then consider the DO route. If not, then do the MD route. From your post it sounds like you are a great candidate, despite the Comlex 2 issue. I am speaking from experience, as I am also a DO and decided to go with MD programs only (due to fellowship opportunities). I should also add that I did successfully match into an MD program and will also be going into Child psychiatry in July. PM me if you have any further questions.

Good luck!

 

[redbookfan]

Thanks to both of you for your responses. Appreciate it. Board scores are low (below 80) - am not the greatest standardized test taker. Silas, I have sent you a PM with answers to your specific questions. Please take a look.

 

[redbookfan]

Yes, I did receive some good feedback from program directors who seemed very enthusiastic and satisfied with the interviews. There were a few who were not so friendly and didn't give much feedback.

 

[CTR]

JPS is dually accredited... I wonder if you can rank them in the MD match?

 

[peppy]

JPS is dually accredited... I wonder if you can rank them in the MD match?

I think it depends on the program. Henry Ford's program is dually accredited but only takes DOs through the DO match.
You also have to be careful how you ask about this issue, since they may interpret asking if they take DOs in the MD match as saying "This program is not going to be my #1 choice".

I PM'd redbookfan, but for the benefit of anyone else in this type of situation, I'll add my two cents here.
My opinion is that Psych is a specialty where board scores are not emphasized nearly as much as they are in other specialties, so I think it would be reasonable to do the MD match in this situation AS LONG AS you rank enough programs.
A big factor in how many programs to rank depends on how competitive the programs are, but I feel that ranking 9 programs is on the low side and would recommend aiming for more like 13-16.

The year I went unmatched, I ranked 8 programs. Looking back, I should have realized that was not enough since a lot of the programs I was aiming for were fairly competitive.
However, I had a false confidence after hearing on several interviews things like "Psych is a buyer's market" (are they still telling applicants that sort of thing?). The program director at my #1 choice even told me "It's pretty much up to you whether you want to come here or not" (after I didn't match, I wrote him to ask what exactly went wrong but I never did get a straight answer).

The scramble in 2009 was horrible (a lot of the places listed as having an open spot weren't actually looking to fill the spot in the scramble, and of the genuine open spots, HALF were in Puerto Rico! Even now, I look back and think, "Seriously? Puerto Rico?"). The scramble in 2010 was actually a little better (some good places like U of Cincy went unfilled that year). However, the scramble is so unpredictable, I would never count on scrambling into anything decent. Maybe when they switch to the "managed scramble" format it will be less of a mad dash to get something, anything but for now you really want to avoid the scramble.

Moral of the story: Rank every place you interviewed at unless the program was truly so bad that you would prefer to go unmatched rather than spend at least a year there.
It's better to feel a little silly for ranking 16 programs only to match at your third choice than to realize afterwards that "That program I cancelled an interview at or didn't rank wasn't so bad after all." No matter where you end up, you'll still be a psychiatrist, and that's all that matters in the end.

If you do have the misfortune to go unmatched and the scramble for psych looks bleak, the next best options are to try to get into an ACGME transitional year or medicine preliminary year (since then you can transfer into Psych as a PGY-2 after completing the year). The ABPN recognizes an ACGME internship in medicine or peds as being equivalent to the normal PGY-1 psych curriculum.
If you don't think you can get one of those and you're a DO, a DO traditional rotating internship will at least give you some income and experience for the year. However the ABPN won't recognize DO training so ACGME psych programs cannot give you credit for the year. You would have to start over from scratch as an intern in your psych program after doing a DO internship.

Good luck to all!

 

[redbookfan]

Thank you, Peppy, for the very thoughtful and helpful message. Yes, I agree with you. I should probably rank EVERY place I interviewed at to maximize my chances. And I am definitely considering the options you mentioned as a back up plan. I thought AOA traditional rotating internship would be the plan but you bring up the interesting point of also TRYING for an ACGME transitional or preliminary spot first. You mentioned peds in your post, do you mean trying for a PGY1 pediatrics residency spot?

Henry Ford is dually accredited but they made it clear to me that DOs can ONLY rank them in the DO match.

 

[235750]

Hi Redbookfan,

From looking at average step 1 scores, it looks as though landing an ACGME transitional spot (median step 1 ~ 230) would be at least as difficult as matching at a top psych spot.

I'm not tying to be a smart ass, just wanted to point out an AOA option might be a more realistic backup.

Goodluck!

 

[peppy]

There are a few Preliminary spots in Peds out there though I think there are a lot more in IM.
You CAN switch out of a categorical Peds program into Psych, but I think a preliminary spot is preferable to matching into a full categorical spot unless you actually do intend to stay in the specialty that the categorical spot is for.
Some PDs won't be very sympathetic or supportive if someone is trying to leave a categorical spot, which can make it hard to get time off for interviewing elsewhere. Most places also want to see a letter of rec from your PD if you've already started residency elsewhere.

As for the issue of transitional years being more competitive, I definitely know that "cush" ones are very sought after since people going into Derm and Rads want them. I'm not sure if that's the case for every TY though. Plus sometimes in the scramble, if you have the right faculty member or PD on your side, that can be a big factor in whether you get a particular spot or not.

But hopefully this is all just hypothetical. 🙂 I think you still have a good chance in the regular match!

 

[zac16125]

Hi Redbookfan,

From looking at average step 1 scores, it looks as though landing an ACGME transitional spot (median step 1 ~ 230) would be at least as difficult as matching at a top psych spot.

I'm not tying to be a smart ass, just wanted to point out an AOA option might be a more realistic backup.

Goodluck!

I'd guess this number is falsely elevated since a number of top applicants go TY while trying to land a derm/ortho/etc spot. If you looked at the averages of TY applicants at places that don't have those top tier residencies, I bet it is signicantly lower, and more attainable. If you do decide to go with the TY, I'd make sure to look at what programs are offered at the respective facilities.

 

[redbookfan]

Yeah, I realize that getting ACGME TY or prelim spot will be harder for me, esp when I am competing with others who have taken USMLE exams and who have passed exams on first attempt, but I can still try that as a backup and then if that doesn't work, I think AOA traditional year internship is also a fine idea. I am sure I would learn a lot and I can be busy!! Hopefully, the psych match works though and I would be sooooo happy for that, so let's see.

 

[Cinnameg]

Hello SDN'ers,

Needed some advice. I am a DO student applying for psychiatry residency through ERAS this year.

My undergraduate and medical school records are pretty strong and I have an extensive CV with various extracurricular involvements, leadership, and activities. I also have good LORs and overall, I think my application is strong besides one thing. Unfortunately, I failed a major exam for the first time last year and that was COMLEX Step 2 (written board exam) but fortunately, I was determined to retake and pass the exam right in time for applications to residency so I did pass my second attempt in August. Thank goodness and that was a HUGE relief! But at the same time, my failed attempt worries me when it comes to match time.

I have more MD interviews compared to the DO interviews, and I would really love to give the MD match a try because it has some of my preferred choices.....but do you think my failed exam attempt is going to hurt me in the MD match (as a DO student) ? Do you think that at least 9-12 programs would be enough to rank in the MD match to have a good chance of matching? My gut feeling is telling me to do MD match but I am scared.

Out of the DO programs, my choices are John Peter Smith in Texas, Henry Ford in Detroit, Millcreek in Erie (Pennsylvania), and Arrowhead (in California).

The DO match rank order list is due next week, but honestly, my gut feeling is telling me to do the MD match and my family thinks I should do the MD match because of more options location wise and program wise.

Do you think I am fine as far as dropping the DO match and just doing the MD match instead? Do you think the failed exam attempt is going to play a big role when the programs rank me post-interview?

Would appreciate any insight. Thank you for your time and take care, everybody.

If you got 9-12 interviews at MD residency programs, you are PROBABLY good to go for the MD match. And it sounds like you want to. It's a risk, but trying to get things we want is always a risk. The programs you want the most are in the MD match. But, if you do the MD match, rank all 12 places. The advice my dean's office gives is that we should be concerned if we get less than 10 interview offers and we should rank all 10 places unless there is a very good reason not to rank a program.

Moreover, you got these interview offers after you failed this exam, right? So if the exam really concerned them, they wouldn't have invited you for an interview (one hopes). Obviously nobody on SDN can predict what will happen in the match, but if I were in your shoes, I'd go for the MD match.

 

[zac16125]

In a somewhat related question I have heard that in order to be eligible for the DO scramble, you have to apply to at least 1 program in the regular AOA match? Does anyone know if thats true? If thats true I could see how that could compliate your situation. You want to match allo, so you don't apply to any AOA programs. But then what if you don't match to any of the allo programs, are you then forced to scramble into allo only programs?

 

[redbookfan]

In response to these question in earlier post:

In a somewhat related question I have heard that in order to be eligible for the DO scramble, you have to apply to at least 1 program in the regular AOA match?
I heard you can scramble even if you do NOT rank any programs in the AOA match.

Does anyone know if thats true? If thats true I could see how that could compliate your situation. You want to match allo, so you don't apply to any AOA programs. But then what if you don't match to any of the allo programs, are you then forced to scramble into allo only programs?
I personally know people who scrambled into AOA programs after not matching into the MD match. It's possible to scramble AOA, just make sure to withdraw from the AOA match by the deadline to have access to unfilled programs list. This is what I have heard. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me.

 

[redbookfan]

If you got 9-12 interviews at MD residency programs, you are PROBABLY good to go for the MD match. And it sounds like you want to. It's a risk, but trying to get things we want is always a risk. The programs you want the most are in the MD match. But, if you do the MD match, rank all 12 places. The advice my dean's office gives is that we should be concerned if we get less than 10 interview offers and we should rank all 10 places unless there is a very good reason not to rank a program.

Moreover, you got these interview offers after you failed this exam, right? So if the exam really concerned them, they wouldn't have invited you for an interview (one hopes). Obviously nobody on SDN can predict what will happen in the match, but if I were in your shoes, I'd go for the MD match.

Thank you for your encouragement and support!!!!! I appreciate it. Yes, I am trusting my "gut" for now and going for the MD match at this point. Wish all of us GREAT luck!!!!!

 

[zac16125]

I personally know people who scrambled into AOA programs after not matching into the MD match. It's possible to scramble AOA, just make sure to withdraw from the AOA match by the deadline to have access to unfilled programs list. This is what I have heard. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me.

I think I worded my question poorly. What I meant to say is do you have to participate in the regular AOA match in order to scramble DO? I ask because if the OP isn't particularly found of any of the AOA programs and doesn't really want to match into one, and thus only applies allo and then doesn't match, is it possible to scarmble into an AOA program?