Need Advice; HPSP (4 yrs) or USU (7 yrs) concerning family life quality.

[Shawno19]

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Hi guys, I'm a junior pre-med student and plan on going into military medicine, the time is coming up where I'm going to have to make a decision on whether to go to a civilian med school and use the HPSP scholarship or apply to Uniform Service University.

I've done a ton of research (this forum has been awesome) and think I have a decent idea of what I'm getting into. I think I would go to USU and pursue a career in army, except that I'm getting married this winter (I'm not 20 lol, I was a late bloomer) and we want to start a family within the next 2-3 years. What I'm most concerned about is moving kids around the country every year or so and the psychological / emotional issues that come with growing up an army brat.

SO, I was looking to get some first hand opinions on raising a family as an army physician. Especially on the moving/deployment issues.
Do you have a say in where you move? how often you move?
Do you get deployed less often the longer your in the military?
Any information would be awesome.

Thanks.

 

[AF M4]

Hrrrmm...if one of your questions is regarding whether you have a say in where or how often you move, you need to do more research.

Also, you're pre-med so you cannot know if you'll like being a doctor so why lock yourself into the career prematurely...and you're just getting married and there's that whole complicated life experience, and there's tons of research out there on how difficult military life is on marriages. Couple that with the high historical divorce rate of physicians and well, you've got about a 60/40 chance of paying alimony checks sometime in the next 10 years.

Anyway, since you asked about moves, here's your projected U-Haul routes:

- move to med school/USUHS (4 years)
- move to residency or internship (1-4 years depending)
- move to GMO world if you don't get a full residency (1-3 years depending)
- (if you went GMO route, extra move to residency here)
- first post residency move (2-4 years)
- second post residency move (2-4 years)

That was just a thumbnail sketch. Your experience may differ. Insert tons of travelling on training missions and deployments too. Overall, you'll probably move somewhere around a half dozen times during your active duty time if you incurred a USUHS commitment. That can be a lot of uprootings for your family to take, and you likely won't be around to provide support for a large portion of it due to deployments.

It's not something to take lightly.

 

[244913]

Divorce rate in my outfit for enlisted is > 80%.

Junior Officers around 70%.

It is the exception, rather than the rule to meet O3's, Warrants above CW2 without a divorce in their back pocket.

Granted, I'm with one of the uber-deployable units in the .Mil but I will tell you this- if you value family life and stability, stay far away. This is a young, single man's game. It's always heartening to meet people who've slogged through it with marriages intact, but even they bear the scars.

Think carefully about joining if you value your family and your new bride. Much easier to pay back loans then alimony....

- 61N

 

[NavyFP]

SO, I was looking to get some first hand opinions on raising a family as an army physician. Especially on the moving/deployment issues.
Do you have a say in where you move? how often you move?
Do you get deployed less often the longer your in the military?
Any information would be awesome.

Thanks.

First, there have been an awful lot of military brats who have turned into happy well adjusted adults, so I think it depends more on you and your spouse than anything else.

Moving - expect at least 4 moves (every 2-4 years) until you finish your obligation.
- to med school
- to residency (assume straight through with the Army)
- first utilization tour (likely to a place like Ft. Polk (LA), Ft Sill (OK), Ft Irwin (CA) etc. It will not likely be a highly desireable spot)
- second utilization tour (will probably be a better spot)

Deployments - expect 9 months every 3 years. They slow down when you hit O6. Some will be as short as 7 months others as long as 18 months. It is too hard to predict operational tempo in 10 years, but this is the current cycle.

 

[AF M4]

...

 

[Shawno19]

Thanks for the replies, even if they're not what I want to hear, but I guess what you don't want to hear is usually the most important things to hear.

If there is anyone here who went through med school/residency/AD/all of the above with a family, I would love to hear your story.

Thanks again.

 

[DeadCactus]

Divorce rate in my outfit for enlisted is > 80%.

Junior Officers around 70%.

There's no doubt that the military drives up the rate, but I have to wonder how high the baseline rate is just for getting married in the 18-22 year old range...

 

[pgg]

I got married @ 22 just before heading off to USUHS, stayed @ Bethesda for internship so we didn't have to move. Had 3 kids while living there. Then moved and had 2 deployments as a GMO in North Carolina, moved for residency at Portsmouth, now staff elsewhere (inital orders for 3 years, but extended to the end of my service obligation).

Still married, no reason to think that will change. Kids are well adjusted, there's nothing wrong with being a military brat. In many ways I think they have advantages over kids that spend their entire childhoods in one place.

Our oldest (13) is a straight A nerd like I was, just started his freshman year of high school at a for-nerdy-kids charter high school, where he is the youngest and smallest kid (just like I was), but supremely happy there, beats me at Super Mario Brothers Wii, but only barely. Middle kid (11) is an almost straight A student, not nerdy though, skateboards and plays drums, makes friends easily, I fear the day he starts noticing girls, I kick his ass at Super Mario Brothers Wii. Youngest (9) is smarter than her brothers, even the nerdy one, makes friends easily, does competitive gymnastics, I fear the day boys start noticing her, and she has a knack for "accidentally" knocking me into the lava when playing Super Mario Brothers Wii.

We picked USUHS over HPSP in part because the higher pay & full benefit package let us have our kids earlier. No regrets there. It worked out for us. There are things about the military that I gripe about, but USUHS isn't one of them. Financially, USUHS was a loss for me - I'm now paying for the higher standard of living then with a longer payback period, earning 1/2 (or less) of my fair market value, but I'm OK with the trade, because having kids sooner rather than later was a priority for us, and being poor sucks.


You have a "say" in where you move while on active duty, and to an extent you can sort of steer your career in certain general geographic directions, but the military puts you where it needs you, and that's final.


Divorce rate is high for all doctors, everywhere. The military is an added nontrivial stressor. Everyone's different. Nothing's free, and nothing is risk free. Take what you want and pay for it.

 

[Mirror Form]

Hi guys, I'm a junior pre-med student and plan on going into military medicine, the time is coming up where I'm going to have to make a decision on whether to go to a civilian med school and use the HPSP scholarship or apply to Uniform Service University.

You should be asking your fiance this question. Unless she plans on being a stay at home mom, then you better make sure that she's really really really supportive of your plan to join the military. Remember it's not just "army strong," it's "army wife strong."

If you have kids in 2-3 years, she'll be stuck being super mom when you're off on deployments. Don't think she won't resent it. It's really bad if she has a career b/c not only are you deployed, but she's also living far away from any family to help out, meanwhile will have to manage the kids, her job, and everything else. People who haven't had kids yet have no comprehension of how much work it is. Also, with the moving, she won't be able to ever actually advance in her career, so that might actually cost you much more money than the scholarship is worth.

 

[Shawno19]

Wow, thanks guys, really helpful.

pgg, sounds like you were in the exact situation I am in now (except I'll be 3 years older). It's really encouraging for us, knowing people have done it, and came out of it not regretting anything (or the big decisions at least).

Would love to hear anyone elses 2 cents

 

[haujun]

Wow, thanks guys, really helpful.

pgg, sounds like you were in the exact situation I am in now (except I'll be 3 years older). It's really encouraging for us, knowing people have done it, and came out of it not regretting anything (or the big decisions at least).

Would love to hear anyone elses 2 cents

I agreed with doing more research and reading the pro and cons of the miitary. Ironically, it is valid that HPSP and USUHS attract applicants just like you and me who are married with kids. However our quality of life decline once you are done with your residency as you have very little control of your life. Some people like their experience because they got the training that they want and was stationed a good location, while others (there are many) who cannot wait to get out. Since you do not have kids I would recommend going the HPSP path if you really want to be military physician. It is hard to predict what your life will be like after your medical training (7-12 years) and you really do NOT want to be stuck with long military obligations. Good luck. You will need it.

 

[Shawno19]

I agreed with doing more research and reading the pro and cons of the miitary. Ironically, it is valid that HPSP and USUHS attract applicants just like you and me who are married with kids. However our quality of life decline once you are done with your residency as you have very little control of your life. Some people like their experience because they got the training that they want and was stationed a good location, while others (there are many) who cannot wait to get out. Since you do not have kids I would recommend going the HPSP path if you really want to be military physician. It is hard to predict what your life will be like after your medical training (7-12 years) and you really do NOT want to be stuck with long military obligations. Good luck. You will need it.

Thanks for the advice. I was actually leaning towards the HPSP route for those exact reasons, but having kids early is really important to us (especially her) and USUHS seems like the best way for me to pursue a career in medicine and for us to have a family before we're in our 30s. I've by no means made a decision, I'm just as open to moving back home and living near family to help out, or to a med school in a area with super low cost of living (are there any that are half decent?) and live off the $2000 stipend, but right now we are leaning towards USUHS. Still a lot of research to do.

 

[Kingfisher]

Something else that may not have been touched on is that at USU (3rd and 4th year) you still may be moving around every month bouncing around the country doing a military rotation here then there. Unless you locate near a large MTF. Many of the USU med studs that rotate here have that problem.

You still could do that with HPSP but if you choose your school right, you may have a better chance of doing your entire 4 years in one spot.

 

[Shawno19]

Something else that may not have been touched on is that at USU (3rd and 4th year) you still may be moving around every month bouncing around the country doing a military rotation here then there. Unless you locate near a large MTF. Many of the USU med studs that rotate here have that problem.

You still could do that with HPSP but if you choose your school right, you may have a better chance of doing your entire 4 years in one spot.

How often does this happen?

 

[Kingfisher]

How often does this happen?

The USU studs we have here rotate q6 weeks or so. I'm not sure of the specifics as I didn't go there.

At my school we gould do about the same thing but I elected to get rotations in the same city. I'm too old to move around like that now.

 

[pgg]

Something else that may not have been touched on is that at USU (3rd and 4th year) you still may be moving around every month bouncing around the country doing a military rotation here then there. Unless you locate near a large MTF. Many of the USU med studs that rotate here have that problem.

That is true - when I was a MS3 (10 years ago) the students who wanted to stay local could usually manage to get most of their rotations at NNMC or WRAMC, and the students who wanted to travel could usually manage to get most of the year on the road.

I arranged two 6wk back-to-back rotations at Tripler, had my family come along for part of it - even got family TAD housing at Hickam for something absurd like $17/night. Cheapest Hawaiian vacation ever.

No idea what it's like now, especially with the NNMC/WRAMC merge, so that travel is something to consider.

That said - it's certainly no worse than a number of DO schools that have no affiliated teaching hospital. Lots of DO students spend their entire MS3 & 4 years at other locations.

 

[colbgw02]

There's no doubt that the military drives up the rate, but I have to wonder how high the baseline rate is just for getting married in the 18-22 year old range...

I wonder if the higher military divorce rate is due, in part, to the relative financial stability the military provides to an 18/19 year old. The steady paycheck and prospect of decent family housing may drive still-immature soldiers/sailors/airmens/marines into marriage prematurely when their civilian counterparts wait. Obviously, frequent moves, long hours, deployments, etc., play a huge role as well. I just think it would make for an interesting sociologic study.

 

[silverhorse84]

No idea what it's like now, especially with the NNMC/WRAMC merge, so that travel is something to consider.

There are less spots at WRNMMC than there were when the 2 hospitals were separate, but from what I can tell most of the students with a family have most, if not all, of their rotations in the area (with the furthest being Ft. Belvoir for family). With the lottery system we have, one just has to focus on what spots are still open. That may mean not getting the rotations in the order one may want (surgery vs internal first for example), in exchange for getting them all here.
They're especially considerate of single parents. We have a couple of single parents and they've made sure they got spots as close as possible.

 

[noquarter1]

my two cents: i grew up in the army and turned out fine (in my humble opinion). the moving never bothered me, to me it was weird that other people stayed in one place their entire life. growing up like that, it was just normal, and so i never thought twice about it. it let me see most of the country, and when we moved it turned into adventures as we visited new places on the way to the next base. the norm for us was to move about every 3 years.

my father was an officer in the army rangers, so he was deployed many times, including to the middle east and to the DMZ between the two Koreas. yeah, it sucked, but being a kid it never occurred to me he might be in danger, so it was never too much of an issue. being a doctor you won't have to worry about that as much. he was deployed a few times in the beginning, and once right in the middle. this was pre 9/11, though, so I have no idea what it's like now.

incidentally, my parents married when they were 20 and my dad had just joined up. three kids later, 21 years in the army (he retired a while ago), and close to 30 years now their marriage is still strong. i know this isn't the norm, but i thought i'd include it anyway.

I'm in a somewhat similar position. I"m already married (I'm 23, yeah, I married young), finishing my undergrad, and plan on either HPSP or USUHS. i want to start a family, and the prospect of army life for my family isn't a big deal. i did grow up with the army, though, so it's something to think about.

 

[elderjack21]

I wonder if the higher military divorce rate is due, in part, to the relative financial stability the military provides to an 18/19 year old. The steady paycheck and prospect of decent family housing may drive still-immature soldiers/sailors/airmens/marines into marriage prematurely when their civilian counterparts wait. Obviously, frequent moves, long hours, deployments, etc., play a huge role as well. I just think it would make for an interesting sociologic study.

First off, the divorce rate in our nation is over 50% of all marriages anyway. That number has actually been kind of stable over the last few years because less people are choosing to get married. The military has a higher divorce rate for lots of reasons. 1) there is financial benefit to being married in the military (you get extra BAH, better housing on post, separation pay if tdy/deployed, out of barracks etc). So lots of young enlisted Soldiers get married for those reasons. Those folks get divorced. 2) In general, the military attracts/fosters attitudes in people that tend to go against family values or marriage, favoring rather: strip clubs, drinking, extra-marital affairs etc. If you have only been in a medical unit, you may disagree, but I doubt it. This also fosters higher divorce rates. 3) No doubt, there is significant stress on relationships, families, and individuals when you are sent all over the world with short notice . The military adds more stress by constantly screwing up your pay and benefits, wasting your time, etc.

That said, you staying married has everything to do with you and your spouse and how strong you are and only minimally to do with external factors (although everyone likes to blame someone else for their problems).

My wife and I have had no problems with being married and in the army. We enjoy the challenges. She rocks and can handle everything in my absence. We both made the decision (although I am the one in medical school) to pursue military medicine through HPSP after coming off active duty. USUHS wasn't for us for plenty of reasons (I could post a novel about that somewhere else). The military match is limiting, FAP would be a better way to go if you had any doubts about HPSP or USUHS.

 

[AFwife]

Thanks for the advice. I was actually leaning towards the HPSP route for those exact reasons, but having kids early is really important to us (especially her) and USUHS seems like the best way for me to pursue a career in medicine and for us to have a family before we're in our 30s. I've by no means made a decision, I'm just as open to moving back home and living near family to help out, or to a med school in a area with super low cost of living (are there any that are half decent?) and live off the $2000 stipend, but right now we are leaning towards USUHS. Still a lot of research to do.

I am the wife so maybe I can offer a little bit of a different perspective to this situation.

We did the HPSP route, had 3 children during medical school and I was able to be a stay at home mom. I do not feel like we lived any better than our non HPSP counterparts (save the "mental anguish" that we saved by being "debt free")

We and our friends, lived in a government subsidized housing unit paying next to nothing for rent (something like $200/month). Friends took out maximum loans each year (about 50,000/year....30k going towards tuition, the other 20k to live off of), in addition all the medical student families were able to qualify for medicaid, food stamps and wic. Some had to swallow pride and apply, but if you want to have kids, family and stay at home wife I don't think that HPSP or any military scholarship is your only option.

Those same friends are now graduating residency and looking for "real" jobs. My husband is applying to residency. Although we have made more money than our civilian counterparts these past few years, we haven't been able to really enjoy it b/c we have always known that we will be going back to residency so all the extra money is waiting for us in the bank so that I can continue to be a stay at home mom to 4 children w/out suffering quality of life. Savings in addition to GI Bill should help sustain us through the "drought". My opinion is that it will be a lot harder going back to the lesser income than it would have been straight out of medical school when you were already used to living on next to nothing.

So yes, HPSP and the military do offer you "financial perks", but I don't think that we lived any more lavishly than those in our exact same situation (married w/children, stay at home mothers). So once again please don't do it for the money.

My perspective on military life thus far is positive. We chose to live on base and while there are many oddities about it we love it. The convenience, the schools, the "olden days" feel to the neighborhoods, cheap entertainment, etc. I am particularly fond of the fact that life is good for my kids...they can play outside and run around the neighborhood w/out me worrying about them too much. The roads are quiet, especially not living on a main route through housing or to the school. Bad side to this: we live on a small base, everyone knows your business for better or worse!

We have been able to fly on military aircraft to visit family and vacation (we are OCONUS) for free. My husband has not deployed, but has been on numerous TDY's. Be prepared for a whole lot of headache as you go from being a civilian intern to being an O3 stationed at a base for the first time. Took a long time for us to start getting paid and nobody understands how it can be your first base and why you have no paperwork to ease the transition and "everything should have been done by your previous base."

Biggest negative: my kids are now 4 years older. I would have much preferred it when they were babies and weren't able to verbalize how much they missed dad and how much it sucks that he is gone all the time, especially since they are so used to him being around now b/c he works in the clinic. Also we weren't really involved in anything outside the home like we are now so he also will miss much more of their lives by not being able to go to their athletic games, recital performances, school functions, etc. that he wouldn't have missed had he gone to residency 4 years ago (b/c they would have been too little to participate in these things).

So although we aren't far into military life I wanted to offer our story. We have enjoyed each step, but being in the military has made some things a little more difficult. Having said that, we have definitely had experiences that we never would have been able to come close to experiencing had we not been in the military.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I wonder if the higher military divorce rate is due, in part, to the relative financial stability the military provides to an 18/19 year old. The steady paycheck and prospect of decent family housing may drive still-immature soldiers/sailors/airmens/marines into marriage prematurely when their civilian counterparts wait. Obviously, frequent moves, long hours, deployments, etc., play a huge role as well. I just think it would make for an interesting sociologic study.

The archetype seems to be a 20 year old male enlisted who is away from his family of origin for the first time who then meets a young female with borderline personality disorder and then marries her after dating for approximately 2-3 months. Throw in images of BAH at dependent rates into his head and it's a recipe for eventual disaster. Most of them eventually realize that their spouse is crazy and gets a divorce, but not before she's slept with 10 guys from his unit and made 20 "suicide attempts" by attempting to "overdose" on 4 tylenol.

 

[NavyFP]

The archetype seems to be a 20 year old male enlisted who is away from his family of origin for the first time who then meets a young female with borderline personality disorder and then marries her after dating for approximately 2-3 months. Throw in images of BAH at dependent rates into his head and it's a recipe for eventual disaster. Most of them eventually realize that their spouse is crazy and gets a divorce, but not before she's slept with 10 guys from his unit and made 20 "suicide attempts" by attempting to "overdose" on 4 tylenol.

So true. Sad, but true.