Need Advice (Low GPA Undergrad)

[zedoi]

---

Members do not see this ad.

So my undergrad GPA is in fact, terrible (2.32). Since then I've gained tons of experience in clinical through numerous hospitals in the last 3+ years, and am currently doing some research with an oncologist, probably with two or three recommendation letters from those same oncologists.

I am also doing a second bachelors at a CUNY City Tech with over 50 credits on a 4.0 GPA. I will try to take enough credits in the next year to average out to 3.0 at least so I won't get phased out.

I will be putting as much time as I physically can in the MCAT while doing the pre reqs. What advice can yall give me to improve my application? Is there any specific thing I need to do?

1. Does Med School truly care where im doing this DIY Post Bacc?
2. How much volunteering is recommended?
3. How much shadowing is a good amount?

Finally and most importantly lol, do I truly have a shot? If this doesn't pan out, PA is a second option, but after working in cancer care, I realized this is what I want to do with my life. Please help me.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

So my undergrad GPA is in fact, terrible (2.32). Since then I've gained tons of experience in clinical through numerous hospitals in the last 3+ years, and am currently doing some research with an oncologist, probably with two or three recommendation letters from those same oncologists.

I am also doing a second bachelors at a CUNY City Tech with over 50 credits on a 4.0 GPA. I will try to take enough credits in the next year to average out to 3.0 at least so I won't get phased out.

I will be putting as much time as I physically can in the MCAT while doing the pre reqs. What advice can yall give me to improve my application? Is there any specific thing I need to do?

1. Does Med School truly care where im doing this DIY Post Bacc?
2. How much volunteering is recommended?
3. How much shadowing is a good amount?

Finally and most importantly lol, do I truly have a shot? If this doesn't pan out, PA is a second option, but after working in cancer care, I realized this is what I want to do with my life. Please help me.

PA as a backup requires THOUSANDS of hours of clinical exposure, so I suggest you start thinking about your Plan B's feasibility there.

Don't you have access to prehealth advising? What have they told you?

 

[zedoi]

PA as a backup requires THOUSANDS of hours of clinical exposure, so I suggest you start thinking about your Plan B's feasibility there.

Don't you have access to prehealth advising? What have they told you?

For the backup, I have previously worked as Medical Lab assistant at MSK (1.4 years), next as a Medical Assistant at NYU (1.5 years) and now as a Medical Coordinator (8 months) at the same cancer center. Would this be sufficient enough experience? Both Medical Assistant and now Medical Coordinator involved direct patient care.

As for advising, I just picked Applied Chemistry as a major since it seemed to be the fastest option to finish another bachelors without taking a boatload of classes that aren't necessary for med school. Plus it gave me early registration appointments. The advising has been less than helpful sadly since there's not much of a focus on pre-med at city tech (Basically just told me to ask them questions regarding the applied chem major). City Tech just seemed to be the best option since it's close to my home and work (30 min train commute), all while being cheap and covered by tuition reimbursement at my job.

 

[LizzyM]

There are PAs who provide care to ICU patients , including those with cancer. It is quite possible that there are PAs who serve in oncology clinics. You might not see this at a place like MSK but it might be relatively common in smaller hospitals. So, don't rule out PA because of your interest in oncology.

Doing well on the MCAT is job one. Be judicious in using practice tests so as not to use them up prematurely. Look at both the answers you got wrong as well as those you got right to be sure you really knew the answer and didn't just benefit from a lucky guess.

You do have an uphill slog and it is wise to consider what the fall backs might be. I'd also recommend really considering DO but not if you are going to get cold feet if you get into a DO school but wonder if you could do better in a second cycle.

 

[AJ25]

PA as a backup requires THOUSANDS of hours of clinical exposure,

I'll share my experience on why this is significant when looking at PA programs as a "Plan B."

About a decade ago, when I returned from a stint at one of the Caribbean programs, I thought medical school was over for me and I inquired about PA programs, the impression that I got, at that time, was that they did not look favorably on med school rejects. I even was a member of a popular PA message board and they all had snarky attitudes (kinda like the crowd here once upon a time lol) towards my desire to switch to PA. I just gave up on that route about as fast as I considered it because you really do need the clinical exposure component, which really amounts to thousands of hours of patient contact hours, and it was actually "easier" for me to go back to school, improve the prereqs and apply back to med school stateside.

For that reason, I would say steer clear of PA as a plan B if med school doesn't work out and instead go to nursing and do NP. My understanding is that with the NP, you can work autonomously whereas a PA is always attached to an attending physician.

I had to do an MS and an MPH but I did get into a DO program and I am happy with how it all turned out.

The point I'm trying to make here is...you would be surprised what is possible if you really want something. It might take more time and not make much sense to anybody else, but at least you'll be doing what you want to do.

Personally, I think the PA profession would benefit from accepting more med school rejects but they have their prereqs set up in such a way to discourage that.

Forget MD in your case, the odds are slim to none. Those programs wants academic excellence and there are just way too many people that have the stats and research activities to compete for those seats. You may not even want those students as your classmates if you are not coming from where they are academically (or socioeconomically) lol. DO programs really do holistically review applications and I think DO is a great option for those who are interested in primary care specialties. I mean you can realistically become whatever the DO match list says you can become but I do believe the training is geared toward primary care...and that's great for those, like me, who want to do that.

Having said that, without at least a 3.0 cumulative and 500 MCAT, irrespective of your activities, you would be wasting your time with DO. There are also SMP programs that could help with guaranteed interviews/admission, but those aren't exactly a walk in the park either, and in many cases harder, because you need to meet a certain GPA. You can't just pass an SMP biochem class with a C where that class may be very similar to a first-year med school class where you CAN pass it with a C. It's a high-risk/high-reward type of situation with those programs.

Think long and hard about what you, or anybody else for that matter in the same situation, are trying to do here.

 

[Goro]

1. Does Med School truly care where im doing this DIY Post Bacc?
2. How much volunteering is recommended?
3. How much shadowing is a good amount?

Read my post on reinvention for pre-meds.
1. Not really. What Med schools care about is that you do well.
2. You have tons of clinical experience, so you don't need any in the volunteering realm. For non-clinical volunteering, get over 200 hours of service to others less fortunate than yourself. The schools that rewarding reinvention are service loving schools.
3. 50ish hours, especially if some are in longitudinal care

 

[zedoi]

Read my post on reinvention for pre-meds.
1. Not really. What Med schools care about is that you do well.
2. You have tons of clinical experience, so you don't need any in the volunteering realm. For non-clinical volunteering, get over 200 hours of service to others less fortunate than yourself. The schools that rewarding reinvention are service loving schools.
3. 50ish hours, especially if some are in longitudinal care

I'll def look at your post, since everyone is saying that on this site lol. I am able to overcome my low UGPA and average it out to a 3.0 if I continue the 4.0 trend by next May 2027. What MCAT score do you think will give me a clear advantage? I took it previously and got a 491. Do they look at an upward MCAT trend if it was previously taken multiple times?

 

[LizzyM]

I'll def look at your post, since everyone is saying that on this site lol. I am able to overcome my low UGPA and average it out to a 3.0 if I continue the 4.0 trend by next May 2027. What MCAT score do you think will give me a clear advantage? I took it previously and got a 491. Do they look at an upward MCAT trend if it was previously taken multiple times?

Generally, a 510 or better is needed to have a chance at a MD school. Some schools will average two or more MCAT scores so a 491 already puts you in the hole.

The comment by someone who left an off-shore med school and was not welcome at PA schools is a different kettle of fish than someone who is still in college (or second bachelors) who has not yet matriculated into any medical school. Don't worry about a comment that is not generalizable to your situation.

 

[AJ25]

Generally, a 510 or better is needed to have a chance at a MD school. Some schools will average two or more MCAT scores so a 491 already puts you in the hole.

The comment by someone who left an off-shore med school and was not welcome at PA schools is a different kettle of fish than someone who is still in college (or second bachelors) who has not yet matriculated into any medical school. Don't worry about a comment that is not generalizable to your situation.

Remember, the Caribbean school was never listed on any applications or brought up in an conversations (and you know this because you read that lengthy thread). Me bringing all of that up is was for the benefit of defrauded students and for context.

So the experience I described is very valid. And for the record, I chose not to apply to PA school because of the mandatory clinical hours. Nobody said I wasn't welcome. Those are your words.

 

[LizzyM]

Remember, the Caribbean school was never listed on any applications or brought up in an conversations (and you know this because you read that lengthy thread). Me bringing all of that up is was for the benefit of defrauded students and for context.

So the experience I described is very valid. And for the record, I chose not to apply to PA school because of the mandatory clinical hours. Nobody said I wasn't welcome. Those are your words.

"About a decade ago, when I returned from a stint at one of the Caribbean programs, I thought medical school was over for me and I inquired about PA programs, the impression that I got, at that time, was that they did not look favorably on med school rejects. "

I beg your pardon if I misinterpreted your comment that not looking favorably on med school rejects is not equivalent to not being welcome. In any case, someone who has tons of patient care experience and has not been to an off-shore school may find your anecdote to be irrelevant.

 

[AJ25]

"About a decade ago, when I returned from a stint at one of the Caribbean programs, I thought medical school was over for me and I inquired about PA programs, the impression that I got, at that time, was that they did not look favorably on med school rejects. "

I beg your pardon if I misinterpreted your comment that not looking favorably on med school rejects is not equivalent to not being welcome. In any case, someone who has tons of patient care experience and has not been to an off-shore school may find your anecdote to be irrelevant.

Yeah, you misinterpreted that, but that's OK we're all human.

You left the point out where I said I joined a PA forum and asked questions. I however DID NOT ask those questions to "REAL" people at real schools. The schools all said that matriculated students all had several thousand hours of hands-on patient care and that's when I realized attaining those hours was not realistic and that the process was set up to look unfavorably on those who were switching from the med school track to PA. And that's not wrong no matter how you want to spin it based on any bias you might hold regarding my journey to medical school.

My school also has a PA program and I will go ahead and tell the OP or anyone else right now that you will be DOA here with a 3.0 for the PA program...your application will not even be looked at. Try 3.8+ to be competitive. Those are facts. I only tell facts 😉

That's why I clearly said...think long and hard about what you are trying to do here.

EDIT: To be more clear, just so there is no confusion...the longer you commit to the MD/DO route through coursework/activities that MAKE YOU COMPETITIVE for those programs, the less competitive you are going to be for PA programs because those students are racking up the required clinical hours while you are busy with your research, volunteering, and studying for the MCAT. The person above me knows that (at least I hope) and should acknowledge that instead of taking a cheap shot at me because I don't fit the mold. I had so much coursework and activities that made my application DO competitive so that is why I "gave up" on trying for PA even though it was the faster path to a job and six figures. I would have wasted so much time trying to accumulate thousands of hours of patient contact hours just to get my application looked at. And then my application would not have been competitive because of my pre-med GPA, which includes much harder courses than what is required for PA programs.

If that is still not clear, it means that if you didn't get into med school even with high stats, you would not automatically be competitive at a PA program because you probably will not have the MANDATORY clinical hours--which are not a component of an AMCAS or AACOMAS application. Now do you understand why I was saying PA programs don't look favorably on medical school rejects? PA is by no means a backup to medical school. Pick one path or the other or else you will be wasting time and money.

 

[polymerization]

I think you're at a point where you have to really decide if the juice is going to be worth the squeeze for you. A huge part of that is being honest with yourself about what is within your capacity to execute, and how many years you are willing to dedicate at the altar of medicine.

I was admitted to an Ivy with a 3.5/506, but I was also appointed to state government writing health and education policy affecting millions, coordinated several international conferences and colloquia within a medical school, done research with several federal government agencies, and spent roughly a decade's worth of full-time employment hours plus overtime at the bedside in a number of different clinical roles.

I spent a decade atoning for the original sin of having a hard time adjusting to the norms of a formal academic institution and the expectations that come along with that. Sure, I collected some shiny accolades in the meantime as a result of constant status anxiety and a relentless desire to achieve in spite of my circumstances, but I wouldn't exactly call the path to the destination "worth it," in retrospect.

What I hope I'm conveying is that you will always have a chance, but the existential question you are really pointing at and need to answer for yourself has been the same one you've probably been asking yourself for years... is it worth it to you to pursue medicine as if there were no plan B? How much of this is purely intellectual or career-oriented, and how much of it is a "set myself on fire" mindful, purposeful leap into what you were brought on Earth to do? How far are you willing to go to get there?

It is awfully difficult to become a physician, and nobody does it by accident. You'll find that it is one of those professions where it is honest-to-goodness impossible to keep one toe in two pools simultaneously, at least not without seriously damaging your chances within either or both. There are no in-between outcomes, and the emotional toll is going to leave more than a few scars. If you do it, do it with both eyes open.

 

[zedoi]

I think you're at a point where you have to really decide if the juice is going to be worth the squeeze for you. A huge part of that is being honest with yourself about what is within your capacity to execute, and how many years you are willing to dedicate at the altar of medicine.

I was admitted to an Ivy with a 3.5/506, but I was also appointed to state government writing health and education policy affecting millions, coordinated several international conferences and colloquia within a medical school, done research with several federal government agencies, and spent roughly a decade's worth of full-time employment hours plus overtime at the bedside in a number of different clinical roles.

I spent a decade atoning for the original sin of having a hard time adjusting to the norms of a formal academic institution and the expectations that come along with that. Sure, I collected some shiny accolades in the meantime as a result of constant status anxiety and a relentless desire to achieve in spite of my circumstances, but I wouldn't exactly call the path to the destination "worth it," in retrospect.

What I hope I'm conveying is that you will always have a chance, but the existential question you are really pointing at and need to answer for yourself has been the same one you've probably been asking yourself for years... is it worth it to you to pursue medicine as if there were no plan B? How much of this is purely intellectual or career-oriented, and how much of it is a "set myself on fire" mindful, purposeful leap into what you were brought on Earth to do? How far are you willing to go to get there?

It is awfully difficult to become a physician, and nobody does it by accident. You'll find that it is one of those professions where it is honest-to-goodness impossible to keep one toe in two pools simultaneously, at least not without seriously damaging your chances within either or both. There are no in-between outcomes, and the emotional toll is going to leave more than a few scars. If you do it, do it with both eyes open.

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it. I'm at the point where im just mentally exhausted from either working full 10 hr shifts, and trying to maintain A's on all my classes this semester. The biggest regret is that the fire that's burning through me right now should have happened years ago when I was doing undergrad. I'm tired and exhausted, but mostly disappointed with myself, because now I can't imagine doing anything else.

 

[polymerization]

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it. I'm at the point where im just mentally exhausted from either working full 10 hr shifts, and trying to maintain A's on all my classes this semester. The biggest regret is that the fire that's burning through me right now should have happened years ago when I was doing undergrad. I'm tired and exhausted, but mostly disappointed with myself, because now I can't imagine doing anything else.

Yeah, you know, more to my point—I think the solution here is to revisit your past and learn the lessons you haven't quite extracted from those experiences yet. Assume we all have a primary motivation to thrive. You seem like an intensely focused and passionate individual, no? Give yourself more credit... there was probably a reason why you weren't successful initially.

Yes, you have free will and so you should be accountable for your actions, but free will doesn't mean omnipotence. Surely there were other factors outside of your control. Learn from that gap and apply yourself accordingly. It will help you stop feeling sorry for yourself and really start framing yourself as a winner, even if from the vantage of an underdog. It's also going to prevent you from self-flagellating academically and force you to realize that, actually, failure is just a part of the learning process.

This mindset is going to be important when you get to the application stage and will need to start showing that you've thought about this stuff. The brutal truth is that a sob story + a mid performance comes across functionally as whining; a sob story + an outstanding recovery comes across as inspirational.

My advice? The latter is preferable, but immeasurably harder. This sounds more like therapy than advising, but I genuinely believe the key to your improvement is journaling and systematically analyzing the story you're telling yourself about your past and your capacity as a student. At the end of the day, it's everyone's core problem, isn't it?

 

[Goro]

I'll def look at your post, since everyone is saying that on this site lol. I am able to overcome my low UGPA and average it out to a 3.0 if I continue the 4.0 trend by next May 2027. What MCAT score do you think will give me a clear advantage? I took it previously and got a 491. Do they look at an upward MCAT trend if it was previously taken multiple times?

No, taking the MCAT multiple times is kind of like marriage. The more you do it, the more off-putting it can be to potential suitors. Take it once, only when you are 100% ready for it.

You should shoot for a score of 505+ for DO schools, 510 for your state MD school and 513+ for those MD schools that reward reinvention

 

[zedoi]

No, taking the MCAT multiple times is kind of like marriage. The more you do it, the more off-putting it can be to potential suitors. Take it once, only when you are 100% ready for it.

You should shoot for a score of 505+ for DO schools, 510 for your state MD school and 513+ for those MD schools that reward reinvention

Is the GPA truly a lost cause? Ive calculated all possible credit counts and if I continue to take about 16-18 credits over the next 3 semesters, it can average out to a 3.08.

Also, is a second bachelor's a good method to show improved DIY post bacc work? Or is a masters needed to show that you can handle more difficult work?