Need advice on decision making

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Someone needs to put this guy back in his cage haha .... anyways OP I would suggest if possible to send your daughter to the highest ranked in-state or private university (if they gave her enough $$$). To echo off some other points made, it is best to give her options, and sending her to a combined BS/DO program just pigeonholes her for a possible future career. What if she decides she loves plastic surgery or ent or say derm? Those specialties are incredibly hard to match into out of MD, for DOs it's probably 10x harder.

***Is Rutgers for just undegrad still a possibility ? If so, that's what I 100% recommend.
 
Femur said:
Doesn't pigeonhole her at all. The reputation of the UG institution is insignificant.
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BRO...I'm going to make it real simple for you, I looked at your past post history and I don't know if it's just hubris or that you have too much time on your hands.

You think you know more about the process than attending physicians and people who have actually applied to medical school? You got into some dual program and are talking down to people way more experienced and qualified to give advice. Go run to your 24/7 Starbucks spare SDN from your crappy advice.
 
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Femur said:
As I said, I cited testimonial evidence. I'm well aware that it isn't empirical. The intention was for you to identify the trend, and the trend is clear in all sources, that 'it matters much less where you go, than what you do there'

My criticism of Grey12's comment that high school seniors are incapable of making career decisions, is that he isn't even able to cite evidence of any
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Femur said:
False. I've demonstrated much greater maturity than you have on here, Ox, I guarantee it. You'll have to explain your claim, because it's coming out of nowhere.

Applying regular application cycle with above-3.5-510 doesn't guarantee an acceptance in your list of medical schools. The OP's daughter, the individual in question, prefers D.O. schools, and may or may not want to pursue competitive specialties(opth, derm, ENT, plastics, uro). She didn't specify. She may also not want to engage in a gap year if a traditional application cycle goes awry - each year lost is, wasted time and one year of attending salary down the drain. Making a comment on OP's daughter expected performance in medical school based solely on her sitting on dual admission, is false and improper. The facts remain: Nova is a quality respected UG institution. She has a chance at any medical school if she performs well here. A seat in NSUCOM is more valuable than gunning for stellar stats at a more competitive institution, assuming that she will land an acceptance if her stats are above average. That is completely misleading.

Your responsibility here is to offer factual insight, not flippant remarks and unfounded predictions on her misfortune. You don't know how she will perform at NSU, and definitely don't know how she will perform in medical school.

At this point the OP has received enough information to make critical distinctions on her own
1. The dual admission program guarantees an NSUCOM acceptance if she maintains a 3.3 cGPA/sGPA and a 502 MCAT
2. In the program she can switch her dual admission tracks to any field, giving her a wide range of career choices
3. There is a slight advantage to attending brand name schools, as UG selectivity is glanced at in private medical school admissions
4. It will be more difficult for her daughter to achieve competitive residency spots
5. The daughter can apply out to MD schools by the third year
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If any of NOVA/NSU faculty or staff are here, I just want to let you know that this guy is doing far more damage to your institution’s reputation than good.

I have never heard of this school, really, and if this is the type of behavior permitted at your institution, namely, arrogance, lack of respect for expertise, and generally insufferable, I will be far less likely to want to recruit or work with graduate of this institution. And believe me, I am in a position to make a difference.
 
Femur said:
Being at a further stage in this process doesn't make you more knowledgeable in everything regarding admissions. I'm saying that you, and others posting on this thread discouraging taking a dual admission acceptance, came from traditional routes, and thus biased. I'm offering a contrary point of view. Citing to age and school rank to discredit someone's argument, is a poor way of making an argument.
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Oh it doesn't? I can tell you that you are full of it. You are honestly just embarrassing NOVA by continuing to post on here.
 
Femur said:
Being at a further stage in this process doesn't make you more knowledgeable in everything regarding admissions.
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What if I tell you that I interviewed premeds, participated in admission meetings, then interviewed residents and participated residency rank meetings? This has nothing to do with your age or my age. It has to do with experiences. How many premeds did you interview?

Never had the pleasure of meeting an applicant from NOVA though, for none of those people get on my desk at my top 20 med school. Clearlg prestige mattered somewhat, as almost all of my interviewee were from Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCB, and various other famous schools. Basically, if you haven’t heard of it, you probably aren’t getting interviews at the tip top.
 
Femur said:
Being from Harvard doesn't compensate for getting below-average grades. In contrast, an applicant with above-average stats from Nova would be selected. It's always performance over brand.
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So base on what source are you making this statement? Because in my PERSONAL experience selecting for med students, below average grade at Berkeley is OK since it’s such a competitive school and it clearly trumped those kids from NOVA as none of them came across my desk, while plenty of Berkeley kids with 3.6 did.
 
@Terror Billy Rutgers has a great price tag, but I wouldn't recommend it for premed considering graduate outcomes for my cohort (albeit 5+ years) and past cohorts. Ironically the school has a great reputation for placing students into physician assistant programs, however there are many caveats that I have with the internal data as it doesn't cite which PA programs students got accepted into and the devil is always in the details. I've also gone on to do postgraduate education in smaller schools and there are numerous points that I'd like to raise in favor of them being "friendlier" on students than what is at many times an impersonal large lecture hall for many of the basic science classes that matter the most in your first 2 years.
 
Femur said:
I can't cite stats since this is a controversial issue. But from my stance, here's the support from your highly regarded peers

sunshinefl
"Undergrad rarely matters, "top" school for undergrad does not rationalize lower GPA (and while we're at it, neither does a "difficult" major), higher ranking does not equal harder classes (some even believe grade inflation at certain ones). MCAT is supposed to be the great equalizer as a means of comparing candidates, and your MCAT score should be in congruence with your GPA to not raise questions."

Goro
"Yes, if the schools are part of the feeder system for the med school (like the SUNYs for the SUNY schools and all other NY schools), but generally, no. To me, 4.0 at Kutztown State is better than a 3.5 from Harvard."
"Particular UG schools are feeders for med schools. For us it's our state school, and because we get a fair number of Californians, the UCs.

For the bolded, no. Every now and then in our Adcom meetings, someone will say about a marginal candidate, "But he got a 3.3 from [name school]. That has to count for something". We think about this for a second, and then move on."
"school name counts when you have high stats."

NickNaylor
"If you otherwise have a great application and have no red flags, no one is going to care that you came from General State U. But the reality is that applicants from top schools are often given the benefit in the doubt in the face of lower GPAs or lower MCATs. This is because the simple fact of getting into those universities requires a certain degree of ambition and academic success to begin with."

gonnif
"In a 2013 AAMC survey* where 127 medical admissions offices responded, found the "selectivity of undergraduate institution" was considered a factor in the highest importance category for private medical schools while public schools found this of lowest importance. This finding was not found during the 2015 survey though questions remain whether is just do the backlash from the previous finding"
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And who are those people? Can you tell me which one of them did adcom work for a top 20 med school? The only poster I recognize is Goro, and I have no doubt that he/she will prefer someone from an average school as they are more likely to go to his/her DO school.
 
@DrfluffyMD Is there a conflict in the quoted statements and your own opinion? I don't really see one. Most applicants that are in the secondary phase for a competitive MD programs are going to have a GPA of a 3.5+ barring specialized circumstances. School status, school rigor and grade deflation have always been known to be factors of consideration when contextualizing the value of a GPA.
 
@Femur My issue with your approach to this entire thread is that you r/o'd the elephant in the room which is the absent daughter and the blatant helicopter parenting approach to forcing someone down a narrow path when [a] their state of socioemotional development ought to still be exploratory (e.g. frontal cortex is still maturing into the early 20s) and attempting to shape the outcome of the daughter over her next 10-30 years is something I don't want to even touch with a 12 foot pole.
 
@Femur This is my last post in this thread. There's a lot of sub-text and reading between the lines when it comes to research even with consideration to scientific research and healthcare research. If you don't mind I'm going to make a comparison by analogy to present a case of skepticism for trusting research as it is presented. In-house studies by pharmaceutical companies on the efficacy of their own medications especially when it comes down to drug trials are known to be more favorable especially when the research is conducted for testing in order for them to gain patent approval for a new medication. If you're studying philosophy with a medical slant then you have likely come across or know about the Vioxx case in which research information was suppressed on the adverse effects of taking the medication by Merck pharmaceuticals. These are relatively straightforward cases, however standards of practice is affected by rules that are often non-contextualize in many aspects of healthcare. I'm not advocating for rule bending, but often times the underlying rationale for why certain things are done in certain orders aren't well understood by all members of a healthcare team.

One of the advantages to listening to information from @WingedOx or @AnatomyGrey12 even if they come across as curt is that they are giving you an interpretation from an informed perspective that has been considerate of research even if it seems like their opinions are uninformed. There is a reason as to the way they respond that is seemingly absent of parenthetical resources and it's because they are giving a distillation of pertinent evidence that they have filtered and are giving their conclusion. So no, it isn't because they are further along in the process that their words hold value, but because they are lending a perspective that is actively considering all variables and contexts which exist in consideration of all the research that is being presented to them consistently.
 
Select All That Apply said:
@Femur This is my last post in this thread. There's a lot of sub-text and reading between the lines when it comes to research even with consideration to scientific research and healthcare research. If you don't mind I'm going to make a comparison by analogy to present a case of skepticism for trusting research as it is presented. In-house studies by pharmaceutical companies on the efficacy of their own medications especially when it comes down to drug trials are known to be more favorable especially when the research is conducted for testing in order for them to gain patent approval for a new medication. If you're studying philosophy with a medical slant then you have likely come across or know about the Vioxx case in which research information was suppressed on the adverse effects of taking the medication by Merck pharmaceuticals. These are relatively straightforward cases, however standards of practice is affected by rules that are often non-contextualize in many aspects of healthcare. I'm not advocating for rule bending, but often times the underlying rationale for why certain things are done in certain orders aren't well understood by all members of a healthcare team.

One of the advantages to listening to information from @WingedOx or @AnatomyGrey12 even if they come across as curt is that they are giving you an interpretation from an informed perspective that has been considerate of research even if it seems like their opinions are uninformed. There is a reason as to the way they respond that is seemingly absent of parenthetical resources and it's because they are giving a distillation of pertinent evidence that they have filtered and are giving their conclusion. So no, it isn't because they are further along in the process that their words hold value, but because they are lending a perspective that is actively considering all variables and contexts which exist in consideration of all the research that is being presented to them consistently.
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For some weird reason you and femur read like the same poster. Using multiple persona is against the TOS, just FYI.
 
Terror Billy said:
Dude thinks he's Kevin Durant, got himself a burner SDN account :laugh:
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It’s quite schizophrenic to read those two posters, both complete with pseudo-intellectual rant too thick to read but filled with few substance, hallmark of those who have just begin to study college level discourse.

Mod should look into their IP.
 
DrfluffyMD said:
It’s quite schizophrenic to read those two posters, both complete with pseudo-intellectual rant too thick to read but filled with few substance, hallmark of those who have just begin to study college level discourse.

Mod should look into their IP.
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Eh, I don't buy it. They both just type like young students who don't know what they don't know, and our Sharkie friend being completely oblivious to how he comes across on here, a great quality in someone supposedly trying to promote their school.
 
Femur said:
Winged Scapula
There is a reason why Ivy League medical schools are populated with students from Ivy League undergraduate universities.
PizzaFactory
It only matters if you want to go to a top notch medical school. I went to community college and am currently an M2 at a average/slightly above average (depending on the year) Chicago-land MD school. I know several of my classmates took the same route as well. The fact that I went to community college didn't come up once in my application process other than sending in the transcripts for the primary application. What actually matters is HOW WELL you do in college.



Then you'll have to tell me what I don't know that I don't know, instead of evading the task and resorting to flippant comments. From all the opinions I've received, I determined that the picture is gray: high tier medical schools gives UG selectivity considerable weight when combined with high GPA, which is appropriate. Other medical schools don't examine it as much, and consider your performance and trend most significant.
I care about what you say. I absolutely don't care about your age or rank, it doesn't make one an intellectual, and doesn't make one vastly more knowledgeable. So far it's absolutely been ~50% ad hominems. There's only so many you can spew before you get a mod warning.
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You don’t seem to care about people’s direct expertise on this subject as well. It’s an anti-intellectual sentiment.

Trying to convince people like me about med school admission with random poster’s musing is like trying to convince an attending that vaccine cause autism because some lady on the TV said so.
 
Femur said:
One cannot claim expertise, one can only demonstrate it, and then get another to trust the expert. It's the equivalent of saying that I claim a PhD, therefore I know far more than you do, and you shouldn't try and challenge me. It's an argument from authority. It's ridiculous and a cop-out.

If you want the opposition to listen to you, you don't launch ad hominems. The moment you do that, you reveal poor character, inner peace, and maturity, consequently you lose respect and credibility.

Argue against the argument presented. You consistently cite to the poster's rank and reputation as, I repeat, a mitigating factor that diminishes the legitimacy of their comment. The answer is no. I don't buy it.
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I have already demostrated my expertise. You demostrated anti-intellectual tendencies by refusing to observe and analyse my post history.

I don’t need you to listen to me. I am merely pointing out the outcome of not adequately acknowledge an expert’s opinion when you are trying to arguing against his opinion: it makes you a fool.
 
Femur said:
The one who engages the other gets to pick the weapon with which they begin a discourse. This is the initial remark made from you to me
"Undergrad ranking matters a lot. I found out three of my cofellows went to Harvard for undergrad. What a conincidence! Literally 12 years after undergrad, we still see the same peer in elite fellowships.

Haven’t ran into anyone from NOVA yet."

There's sarcasm and cynicism in your comment. In my previous posts, I also pointed out cynicism and derision in initial comments from Grey12 and Ox. In normal conversation, comments like these would never come out of our mouths for a good reason - it is not inappropriate. The same holds for conversations online. Nonetheless, people tend to reveal their true nature when commenting on the internet, because they do not stop to consider what are proper manners, and are immune from direct consequence.

The less respectful your comment, the less seriously I will regard it. Nevertheless I still read them intently. And as I said, I've considered both sides, and the conclusion I reached is, I believe, the truth. Neither extreme is correct, and different schools consider different factors. But I think that having a guaranteed NSUCOM seat in your grasp while applying out to MDs with a good GPA, MCAT, and extracurriculars is spectacular. If you still want to take issue with the other side, I will go ahead and cite arguments from SDN sources that you will likely recognize, because the one's I cited from less eminent sources you neglected completely.

"Anyway, none of your sources are legitimate as they are based on anonymous internet forum posts. "
The sources aren't meant to be empirical or scientifically tested. The moment you disdain the points made by these posters on the basis that it is a forum post, you've lost it completely. I advise you to check Goro's(an anonymous forum poster) comment on the significance of UG brand.

I don't care about your post history. Either your comment is good, or your comment is bad. It shouldn't need reinforcement from your past achievements. Again, arguing from authority is a poor way of making an argument. I guarantee you that being an adcom doesn't grant you more points against me in an argument.

I determine whether you are fit for serious regard based on your demeanor and ability to compose yourself. If one's academic rank causes you to disregard the validity of an argument, I would advise you to readjust your attitude. As I said, respect is earned and not given. Reply against arguments properly - criticizing the individual is a bad way of making an argument.
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Lol
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Actually we do.
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When someone stands on a low ground or only have limited expertise, he/she cannot acknowledge anyone who is more experienced. It’s like an ant, if only they can see to 2mm of height, nobody else is taller.

This is why I found a reply of “lol” to have the same effect to certain poster in this thread versus other statements. Some people aren’t worth more effort.

It’s best if we stop engage this poster. The effort to enlighten him is futile. He will simply have to learn over the years. A man who direly lack knowledge and experience does not acknowledge that lacking.
 
Femur said:
There's a reason why Goro, Lizzy, and Lucca never make flippant or inappropriate remarks
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Hey @Goro... you might enjoy this thread. Also, you're apparently never flippant.

Femur said:
There's only so many you can spew before you get a mod warning.
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Bro, I've been on this god-forsaken website since you were in kindergarten, and the last (and only) time I got a mod warning for being rude was when you were in middle school. And that one I earned, I'm happy to admit. And yeah, I'm kinda like this all the time, and the mods and admins seem happy to have me around. So perhaps you'd do well to "talk less, smile more" if you walk in on a new situation and trust your own expertise a little less, be it medical admissions--or the culture of the forum for which you're a newbie.

You might do well to take notice of the fact that no one ever comes to your defense in this or any of the other threads, be they other premeds, attendings, faculty, or people from your own program in the other thread. You'd do well to recognize why that is.
 
WingedOx said:
Hey @Goro... you might enjoy this thread. Also, you're apparently never flippant.



Bro, I've been on this god-forsaken website since you were in kindergarten, and the last (and only) time I got a mod warning for being rude was when you were in middle school. And that one I earned, I'm happy to admit. And yeah, I'm kinda like this all the time, and the mods and admins seem happy to have me around. So perhaps you'd do well to "talk less, smile more" if you walk in on a new situation and trust your own expertise a little less, be it medical admissions--or the culture of the forum for which you're a newbie.

You might do well to take notice of the fact that no one ever comes to your defense in this or any of the other threads, be they other premeds, attendings, faculty, or people from your own program in the other thread. You'd do well to recognize why that is.
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Don’t stoop to his level. Best stop engaging that poster.
 
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