Need advice to make important decision.

[CheeseMonkey130]

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First, I'd like to thank you in advance for reading, and maybe responding to my post. I am not a re-applicant but I feel that this "room" will have the best advice to give since you have been through the process and know first-hand what to expect.

I will be graduating this semester with two degrees, one in the physical sciences and one in the life sciences. My college career started out horribly and my freshman grades were miserable. I received 6 F's (same semester) and was placed on academic probation. My parents went bankrupt that year and, without financial help from home, I placed a higher importance on making rent than on making it to class. Since then, the state has helped me tremendously and I have been able to make great grades. In the AMCAS system my overall GPA will be ~3.3 and ~3.55 science by the time I apply. In the Osteopath application system ~3.6 overall, ~3.7 science (love that I can drop those F's). I took the MCAT in August '03 and received 9VR/13PS/10BS, O in writing.

My concern is that I have barely been able to get extracurricular experience since I have had to work as much as possible to supplement the state's help throughout college. I have little clinical experience and little research. I have worked in a pharmacy for a while, but that is as close as it gets to "clinical experience", other than some ER volunteering.

Other things that might affect my application:
- 1st language is spanish, although I consider myself fluid in both english and spanish.
- Lived in South American country for sometime.

The two decisions I need to make are:
1) Should I apply this coming year (2005/2006 app cycle)?
2) What type of schools should I apply to considering my below-average-for most MD schools GPA.

I am also considering the fact that if I don't apply this year, my MCAT will expire and I will need to retake it.

Thanks Again.

 

[2tall]

I think it's your choice whether or not you apply this year (like you didn't already know that). Your science of 3.55 isn't bad at all. Your MCAT is solid. If we were going solely by numbers...you'd definitely receive interview invites (assuming you apply early).

Extracurriculars are important. Research. Clinical experience. Volunteering. Community/Church activity. Leadership experience. Work with what you have. You didn't mention what you've done, but whatever it is always ensure it reflects your concern for your community and your motivation toward medicine. All work and no ECs would make CheeseMonkey a dull applicant. Bilingualism and living abroad definitely make you interesting.

Where to apply? Of course, you should include your state school(s). For the rest...pick 5-10 schools with stats below yours, 5 with similar stats, 3-5 dream schools. Remember...choose places you would actually consider attending. The MSAR should help you refine your search.

Obviously, you could start volunteering to get some clinical experience. You could just as easily prepare for this August's MCAT to apply for entering class '07. However, it seems you have medschool fever.

 

[Sancho]

I had a semester like yours at the 2nd of my nine schools. 0.55 GPA as I remember, which helped bring the amcas avg to a lovely 2.98-sweet!!!
this should have obviated the need for me to waste money applying to MD programs rather than HVAC ones-
but in the immortal words of rob schneider, "you can do it" (even if you have to sleep your way to the top)

 

[Law2Doc]

First, I'd like to thank you in advance for reading, and maybe responding to my post. I am not a re-applicant but I feel that this "room" will have the best advice to give since you have been through the process and know first-hand what to expect.

I will be graduating this semester with two degrees, one in the physical sciences and one in the life sciences. My college career started out horribly and my freshman grades were miserable. I received 6 F's (same semester) and was placed on academic probation. My parents went bankrupt that year and, without financial help from home, I placed a higher importance on making rent than on making it to class. Since then, the state has helped me tremendously and I have been able to make great grades. In the AMCAS system my overall GPA is ~3.3 and ~3.55 science. In the Osteopath application system ~3.6 overall, ~3.7 science (love that I can drop those F's). I took the MCAT in August '03 and received 9VR/13PS/10BS, O in writing.

My concern is that I have barely been able to get extracurricular experience since I have had to work as much as possible to supplement the state's help throughout college. I have zero clinical experience and little research. I have worked in a pharmacy for a while, but that is as close as it gets to "clinical experience".

Other things that might affect my application:
- 1st language is spanish, although I consider myself fluid in both english and spanish.
- Lived in South American country for sometime.

The two decisions I need to make are:
1) Should I apply this coming year (2005/2006 app cycle)?
2) What type of schools should I apply to considering my below-average-for most MD schools GPA.

I am also considering the fact that if I don't apply this year, my MCAT will expire and I will need to retake it.

Thanks Again.

I can't speak to the DO route, but as far as allopathic, I think a lot of places are going to have a lot of trouble getting past your lack of clinical experience. Your numbers are probably adequate, especially considering the upward trend you indicated. But med schools will want to see that you know first hand what medicine is all about, and for this reason a lot of places almost insist on some level of clinical experience. You will also need to demonstrate to them an interest in medicine, and mere classroom exposure usually isn't adequate. If I were you, I would save the thousands of dollars and not apply just yet -- take an extra year. Spend a year volunteering/shadowing in a hospital in your spare time, or better yet get a health related job for a year. It will open a lot of doors, and will give you a better ability to demonstrate a real interest in medicine in your PS and interviews. And it will give you a better idea of what you are getting yourself into.

 

[cammy1313]

I concur with Law2Doc. While your numbers and other ECs are most definately competitive, there is nothing in your experiences and/or background that shows that you've had any exposure to medicine. I think a year volunteering in a hospital or shadowing a physician would be the missing piece to your nearly well-rounded application. If, on the other hand, you decide to apply now, then you should definately obtain a clinical volunteering position ASAP so that you may include it as an "in progress" activity on your initial application. Provided you recieve interviews (which I believe you should) then you will have had some clinical experience under your belt that you might share with your interviewers.

G'luck!

 

[CheeseMonkey130]

I have given alot of thought to skipping this round and spending a year gaining solid experience. The reason I posted here is because I have received such mixed advice from peers and counselos. My premed advisor thinks I should apply this year as long as I shadow someone during May (after graduation) and start with clinical exposure during the summer. He seems to think that EC's are "icing on the cake", and a minimal amount to have something to talk about is sufficient. He also thinks that retaking the MCAT would be a tragedy. I tend to disagree because of what I've read here on SDN and on admissions websites.
I would be really curious if someone here had a similar situation before they applied and what the outcomes were. Spending the cash to apply is a big concern for me and I don't want to have to do it twice.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have given alot of thought to skipping this round and spending a year gaining solid experience. The reason I posted here is because I have received such mixed advice from peers and counselos. My premed advisor thinks I should apply this year as long as I shadow someone during May (after graduation) and start with clinical exposure during the summer. He seems to think that EC's are "icing on the cake", and a minimal amount to have something to talk about is sufficient. He also thinks that retaking the MCAT would be a tragedy. I tend to disagree because of what I've read here on SDN and on admissions websites.
I would be really curious if someone here had a similar situation before they applied and what the outcomes were. Spending the cash to apply is a big concern for me and I don't want to have to do it twice.

Thanks again for your help.

I can't imagine anyone sane retaking an MCAT that they already got a 32 on unless their GPA was either really low (3.0), or else very close to 4.0 and they truly NEEDED to go to a top ten school (and even then, they'd still need the better ECs). So I tend to agree with your advisor on that, for what that's worth. But I think rather than looking at ECs as "icing on the cake", you need to view them as a very real prerequisite for most schools. Once you have the clinical ECs, I think you are in good shape, but if you are going to start shadowing in May apply (a month or two later?) and then will be hoping you have enough clinical experience by the time interviews (if any) roll around, I think you are taking a bigger risk.

 

[2tall]

Do premed advisors receive any formal training? I think they should all be required to take the prereqs and MCAT and actually apply before they open their mouths. I don't see the benefit to starting your clinical experience when your AMCAS application should be complete/near completion. Retaking the MCAT again wouldn't be a tragedy (especially since your scores will expire). It's a necessity. Perhaps your advisor fears your score may drop.

Let's play out the apply this year scenario. You ask for letter of recommendations now. Start your personal statement. You start clinical experience April 1st. Five months of experience should be sufficient to note on AMCAS? Of course you'd continue these until you start med school (whenever that would be). You submit it Sept 1. Applying to ten schools is $420. It should take about 2 weeks for AMCAS to process your app. Some schools screen before sending secondaries. Some secondaries are available online. So from 9/15 thru til the end of October you're working on them. These apps range from $40 - $95. Let's say $580 total. Interviews. Stay with a student host, if available. Flights $200-$400. Hotels $50-$100. Food. Cabs.

$2000 - 3000 total.

Ask yourself if you can do a repeat performance on your MCAT.

 

[CheeseMonkey130]

Do premed advisors receive any formal training? I think they should all be required to take the prereqs and MCAT and actually apply before they open their mouths. I don't see the benefit to starting your clinical experience when your AMCAS application should be complete/near completion. Retaking the MCAT again wouldn't be a tragedy (especially since your scores will expire). It's a necessity. Perhaps your advisor fears your score may drop.

Let's play out the apply this year scenario. You ask for letter of recommendations now. Start your personal statement. You start clinical experience April 1st. Five months of experience should be sufficient to note on AMCAS? Of course you'd continue these until you start med school (whenever that would be). You submit it Sept 1. Applying to ten schools is $420. It should take about 2 weeks for AMCAS to process your app. Some schools screen before sending secondaries. Some secondaries are available online. So from 9/15 thru til the end of October you're working on them. These apps range from $40 - $95. Let's say $580 total. Interviews. Stay with a student host, if available. Flights $200-$400. Hotels $50-$100. Food. Cabs.

$2000 - 3000 total.

Ask yourself if you can do a repeat performance on your MCAT.

I appreciate your estimate, it's something I've been trying to do myself. I really have no problem with retaking the MCAT. Since I wrote it in '03, with just the basic prereq's behind me, I've taken plenty of advanced courses in both physical and life sciences, so I should be OK.

It seems the general trend is that I need the clinical experience more than what my advisor suggests. This is what I thought too, but being that he is the "advisor", I needed a double check.

Thanks for your help.

 

[jennie 21]

I'd like to respectfully disagree with most of the above responses. In my opinion, the importance of EC's tends to be overrated by most pre-meds. I had a friend--now she did have great numbers--get into Harvard Med with minimal clinical experience (one semester shadowing, I think). She did have quite a bit of research experience, though, and absolute top numbers. Still, I don't think clinical experience is as much of a requirement as it's made out to be. I worked as an EMT for three years during college and expected that experience to carry more weight in the admissions process than it actually did. Believe it or not, my interviewers were relatively unimpressed by my work as an EMT and didn't seem to think it was particularly relevant to medicine (maybe this is because it's pre-hospital work and thus I didn't get a chance to interact with doctors a lot or spend a lot of time in the hospital? But on the other hand, it's about the only hands-on clinical experience you can get actually treating patients while still a pre-med, so I thought that would carry some weight, but it really didn't seem to). They were much more interested in my grades, and also in my research experience. Maybe it depends somewhat on the schools you apply to, also; most of the schools I applied to were top-30 and research-oriented, so I guess it makes sense that they value research more than some schools might which are more focused on primary care.

I think the fact that you worked so hard to put yourself through college says a lot about your character, maturity, and level of responsibility. You have experience with the real world that most college kids don't. That's an asset, and reflects positively on you and on your character. I would make sure to explain in your AMCAS application how busy you were working paid jobs during college and how you had to support yourself and that, therefore, you had less time for extracurricular activities. Looked at the right way, I really think this can be turned into an asset for your application, rather than a liability. Med schools want people who are strong and mature and responsible, and holding down multiple jobs while keeping a respectable GPA definitely demonstrates that, and I think some adcom people would give you a lot of credit for what you've done. It's way more worthwhile than being president of the pre-med club, in my opinion. Your overall science GPA is pretty good and if that average includes your F's from freshman year, you must have made some pretty impressive grades after that to still have a 3.55 science GPA. If your grades from your last three years are strong, I would go ahead and apply this year. I think you've got a good shot at it, and it would be a shame to let those MCAT scores expire and have to go through that again.

 

[jetproppilot]

I have to humbly disagree with most of the above posts and agree with Jennie 21. I'm a private practice anesthesiologist and I too had to work 40 hours per week during my last two years of college to support myself while taking 17 hour semesters (whew, glad thats over!) Granted, I worked as a paramedic but I don't think it was that I was working in a health related field, but rather that I was able to work FULLTIME and still muster enough energy to turn out respectable grades. (YES, I wanted to be an MD bad!!) My GPA was 3.93 before my financial catastrophe; my ending GPA was a 3.48. My MCATS were solid, but not stellar. I was accepted at 3 schools; ended up going to U of Miami.
My point is, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE??? I personally think its a no-brainer-APPLY!!!! You have a good chance of getting in, and if you don't, yes, you're down a few grand. But the potential benefit FAR exceeds the risk. Imagine, your dream may come true earlier.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with most of the above responses. In my opinion, the importance of EC's tends to be overrated by most pre-meds. I had a friend--now she did have great numbers--get into Harvard Med with minimal clinical experience (one semester shadowing, I think). She did have quite a bit of research experience, though, and absolute top numbers. Still, I don't think clinical experience is as much of a requirement as it's made out to be. I worked as an EMT for three years during college and expected that experience to carry more weight in the admissions process than it actually did. Believe it or not, my interviewers were relatively unimpressed by my work as an EMT and didn't seem to think it was particularly relevant to medicine (maybe this is because it's pre-hospital work and thus I didn't get a chance to interact with doctors a lot or spend a lot of time in the hospital? But on the other hand, it's about the only hands-on clinical experience you can get actually treating patients while still a pre-med, so I thought that would carry some weight, but it really didn't seem to). They were much more interested in my grades, and also in my research experience. Maybe it depends somewhat on the schools you apply to, also; most of the schools I applied to were top-30 and research-oriented, so I guess it makes sense that they value research more than some schools might which are more focused on primary care.

I think the fact that you worked so hard to put yourself through college says a lot about your character, maturity, and level of responsibility. You have experience with the real world that most college kids don't. That's an asset, and reflects positively on you and on your character. I would make sure to explain in your AMCAS application how busy you were working paid jobs during college and how you had to support yourself and that, therefore, you had less time for extracurricular activities. Looked at the right way, I really think this can be turned into an asset for your application, rather than a liability. Med schools want people who are strong and mature and responsible, and holding down multiple jobs while keeping a respectable GPA definitely demonstrates that, and I think some adcom people would give you a lot of credit for what you've done. It's way more worthwhile than being president of the pre-med club, in my opinion. Your overall science GPA is pretty good and if that average includes your F's from freshman year, you must have made some pretty impressive grades after that to still have a 3.55 science GPA. If your grades from your last three years are strong, I would go ahead and apply this year. I think you've got a good shot at it, and it would be a shame to let those MCAT scores expire and have to go through that again.

 

[CheeseMonkey130]

Wow, the last two posts agree with my advisor, parents, and girlfriend. The others agree with me, and the rest of the pre-meds I know.
Assuming I start shadowing/clinical volunteering in early May, what type of schools should I apply to?

The answer I get from the advisor is:
"whichever one you think fits you best, candidate selection criteria differ widely from school to school, especially between allopath and osteopath"

However, I am pretty sure that I can avoid wasting money by being realistic.

Please know that I appreciate your comments tremendously.

 

[Kazema]

I agree with those who say to apply now. But definitely start shadowing doctors ASAP, and start volunteering at a hospital or clinic too. If you want patient contact, I recommend a psychiatric hospital if you'd be comfortable in that setting; you most definitely will get all the patient contact you'll ever want. And then some.

Remember that most premeds (especially us SDN'ers ) are very neurotic and in ideal circumstances want to have perfect applications before applying. My initial reaction to your post was also that you should wait a year. But your numbers are good, the fact that you're bilingual is excellent, and working your way through school while pulling up your grades like that is incredible. All you're missing is clinical experience and you can start doing that now. Since you've started on that late, you might want to get an additional LOR from your volunteer coordinator or whoever is in charge of your clinical experience thingy and send that off in the fall after you've been there for a while. That will show med schools that you're still doing whatever it is you're doing and you didn't just start it in order to put it on your app and then quit it right after.

As far as schools, definitely apply to your state schools, your dream school, and maybe 5-10 other schools spread in between. You should definitely read Norman Gevitz's book about DO's to see what it's all about if you haven't already; if you dig DO definitely apply - most DO programs either require or strongly recommend a letter from a DO so consider that when picking out physicians to shadow. I got away without one, but I had done pretty thorough research both on SDN and from other resources (like books, DO students) so I knew what I was talking about during my interview when asked about the philosophy and my motivation for becoming a DO.

Selection criteria for MD and DO schools are a bit different; DO schools tend to look past numbers more readily. But your problem isn't numbers, so you don't have to really worry about that I don't think. Just get in your clinical experience and you should be fine to apply this year. If you haven't started your PS get cracking on that right away. Show it to as many people as you can trust to give you good feedback.

Meanwhile you should also be preparing for the possibility that you may have to reapply next year if you don't get in this year. Have a backup plan - lots of schools like to ask what yours is. Since your scores are expiring you should start preparing to retake in January if you haven't been accepted by then. Meanwhile you'll still be working on your clinical experiences - I think that if you don't get in this year you definitely will next year.

EDIT: All this is assuming ideal financial circumstances. I feel like you have a good chance to get in this year, but if you can only afford to apply once, I think you'd definitely get in next year - you'd just have to retake the MCAT I guess.

 

[2tall]

I didn't know we were voting. I say apply this year. You need clinical experience ASAP. I know your schedule is probably really tight, but 3 hours on a Saturday/Sunday is a start (start NOW). The EMT/research assistant and the paramedic's encouragement is indeed great and all...but they did have some type of experience (even if it was ambiguously defined). Some secondary applications have questions regarding volunteer/clinical/community experiences. How would you tackle those questions?

Oh and...It's just money (unless you have kids)!

 

[Kazema]

You need clinical experience ASAP. I know your schedule is probably really tight, but 3 hours on a Saturday/Sunday is a start (start NOW).

I agree 100% with this. Don't wait till May. Start now.

 

[63768]

if you have the funding and you should apply this year. if money is still a problem, maybe you should wait and beef up your app. also with clinical exp, start now. you can get a rec letter from them by the end of may.