Need advice

[cougarblue84]

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This is my second time applying for dental school.

The first time I applied, I had a 3.1 science GPA and 3.3 overall GPA, and I scored an 18/18 on the DAT. I had 100+ hours of job shadowing and other extracurriculars. I went all out and applied to 24 schools and didn't get a single interview. Major money waste.

This last year, I applied with a 3.2 science GPA and a 3.4 overall GPA, and I retook the DAT and scored 20/21. I had more extracurriculars. I applied to 14 schools and did not get a single interview. Again. Money waste.

I realize my GPA is on the lower side, but is that aspect of my application so bad that it outweighs an otherwise good DAT score and all other positives? Is this normal? I am graduating this April, and am going to apply one more time before abandoning my dental dreams in hopes that I might finally get an interview on the third try, but I thought I'd ask for advice. I've had my personal statement reviewed by my university and several of my friends and have received a lot of critique and input. I feel like that aspect of my application is all right. I have some solid letters. I have shadowing hours. I just don't know what else to do to get an interview.

Anyway... don't mean to bother with the long story, and I know there's not a magic answer, but if anyone has any tips on getting interviews... that might be helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

[anschutz1913]

Well, your GPA might be on the low side, but your recent DAT scores are great! I would spend a little more time "networking" with the admin at schools and see what they think hint hint. After they have figured out who you are, and you do the things that they ask (like maybe more uppper level sci. classes, research, community service, etc.) you will be fine.

 

[alanan84]

I agree with the above poster. It's probably a good idea to target 2-3 schools that you're interested in and feel you have a good shot at and find out what sort of things they're specifically looking for.

Apart from that, I think that we (as high DAT scorers and lower GPAers) like to think that the DAT is of equal importance as GPA. I'm not sure that dental schools see it that way. Hopefully you have an upward trend. You may want to look into a masters degree. Again though, contact a few schools and go all out towards being the sort of student they're looking for.

 

[subdoc]

OP...congrats on your DAT scores. Great achievement birging them up!

I think the targeting advice is pretty good, but I would still apply to a few more schools. As an applicant who for lack of a better word "shotgunned" out apps for this cycle, I haven't yet heard from by targeted, networked schools. My only two interviews thus far were schools I had ZERO prior dialogue with...

I would look mostly at what separates you from the other 2000 applicants to the schools where you apply. Look at non-dental unique experiences you have had and relate them back to dentistry. For those of us whose numbers are in the center of mass (you and I are in the same boat) what we need to get in are our unique backgrounds and exeriences to diversify the student body. Don't just be passionate about dentistry!

For example, say the weekends and holidays where you volunteer at a soup kitchen have helped to build your ability to communicate and relate to people from all demographics. You feel from this experience you would like to make a difference and work as a state-funded dentist for the underserved.

Or say you worked on a mechanical engineering project as an undergrad which gave you an appreciation for exacting preceision and quality assurance.

Or how you like to spend free time exploring museums and sculpture gardens which gives you an appreciation for the artistic side of dentistry. Coupled with the love for the sciences, you feel dentistry is the right profession as it is amalgam of science and art.

Or how your continued progression in academia has given you a passion for lifelong learning. Dentistry satiates this passion as you maintain proficiency through seminars in updated technology and academic breakthroughs.

Or how as an officer in your fraternity/sorority, you developed a keen sense of peer leadership in a small group format - a format very similar to that of running a clinic.

Just examples...I have no idea what your background is. If you didn't write to experiences on your PS, maybe you can expand on some during the interview process.

What I do know is that probably several hundred to a thousand other applicants have similar numbers as you, have shadowed, and have done ECAs. Differentiate yourself from your experiences...

Best of luck on the cycle...I am most definitely rooting for you! I appreciate your dedication, but unfortunately, I am not on an ADCOM.

 

[PaulieGualtieri]

what's your DAT breakdown?

 

[Near]

OP...congrats on your DAT scores. Great achievement birging them up!

I think the targeting advice is pretty good, but I would still apply to a few more schools. As an applicant who for lack of a better word "shotgunned" out apps for this cycle, I haven't yet heard from by targeted, networked schools. My only two interviews thus far were schools I had ZERO prior dialogue with...

I would look mostly at what separates you from the other 2000 applicants to the schools where you apply. Look at non-dental unique experiences you have had and relate them back to dentistry. For those of us whose numbers are in the center of mass (you and I are in the same boat) what we need to get in are our unique backgrounds and exeriences to diversify the student body. Don't just be passionate about dentistry!

For example, say the weekends and holidays where you volunteer at a soup kitchen have helped to build your ability to communicate and relate to people from all demographics. You feel from this experience you would like to make a difference and work as a state-funded dentist for the underserved.

Or say you worked on a mechanical engineering project as an undergrad which gave you an appreciation for exacting preceision and quality assurance.

Or how you like to spend free time exploring museums and sculpture gardens which gives you an appreciation for the artistic side of dentistry. Coupled with the love for the sciences, you feel dentistry is the right profession as it is amalgam of science and art.

Or how your continued progression in academia has given you a passion for lifelong learning. Dentistry satiates this passion as you maintain proficiency through seminars in updated technology and academic breakthroughs.

Or how as an officer in your fraternity/sorority, you developed a keen sense of peer leadership in a small group format - a format very similar to that of running a clinic.

Just examples...I have no idea what your background is. If you didn't write to experiences on your PS, maybe you can expand on some during the interview process.

What I do know is that probably several hundred to a thousand other applicants have similar numbers as you, have shadowed, and have done ECAs. Differentiate yourself from your experiences...

Best of luck on the cycle...I am most definitely rooting for you! I appreciate your dedication, but unfortunately, I am not on an ADCOM.

This. 👍

Also, you might be able portray the contrast between your higher DAT scores and low-end GPA scores as a personal journey which caused you to grow up and mature.

Good luck!

 

[cougarblue84]

Thank you very much to all who posted for your advice and thoughts. It was very helpful and appreciated.

Someone asked about my DAT breakdown. It was:

22 PA
18 Bio
20 Gen Chem
21 O Chem
26 RC
17 QR

 

[BiomajorPreDent]

Those DAT scores are pretty solid.

I agree with all of the above advice.

I would also say that hopefully your GPA goes up this semester before you graduate. What are you taking this semester? Do you have an upward trend or is it all over the place?

Raising your GPA this semester will help alot too.

One other thing, I would NOT give up on dentistry.

If nothing happens this cycle and you re-apply, I would also apply to some masters programs then too. And then apply again to dental school. I know it is expensive, but if this is what you want to do, you can't give up! 🙂

 

[Impulse155]

The 18/17 could be the reason why but I highly doubt it. With a 3.2/3.4 and 20's you should at LEAST be getting interviews at some schools. If you dont mind me asking, what schools did you apply to. Maybe they are all "Tougher" schools?

 

[drsomeday1]

Those are some solid scores!👍 I'm not sure why schools haven't called you for interviews, honestly. One thing I can think of is that there are a lot of applicants from BYU and it's hard to stand out there (insert several personal experiences). I'd echo what others have said -- do something like research that puts in pile A instead of pile B. Your GPA isn't that bad and your DAT, I would think, would compensate. Here's one piece of advice you might not want to hear. I applied to 20 dental schools this year and at the last minute before AADSAS was due, added two others just because. Those were the only two I got interviews at before December 1. I didn't expect them at all from those schools. Just saying, even though it might be a waste of money, you only need one, and you NEVER really know who might pick you up. I'd say go all out again next cycle and apply to all the schools you can and network like crazy. If it doesn't work, go for the masters. Your DAT is solid and is good for a few years, so at least you won't have to deal with that beast again.

 

[anschutz1913]

OP...congrats on your DAT scores. Great achievement birging them up!

I think the targeting advice is pretty good, but I would still apply to a few more schools. As an applicant who for lack of a better word "shotgunned" out apps for this cycle, I haven't yet heard from by targeted, networked schools. My only two interviews thus far were schools I had ZERO prior dialogue with...

I would look mostly at what separates you from the other 2000 applicants to the schools where you apply. Look at non-dental unique experiences you have had and relate them back to dentistry. For those of us whose numbers are in the center of mass (you and I are in the same boat) what we need to get in are our unique backgrounds and exeriences to diversify the student body. Don't just be passionate about dentistry!

For example, say the weekends and holidays where you volunteer at a soup kitchen have helped to build your ability to communicate and relate to people from all demographics. You feel from this experience you would like to make a difference and work as a state-funded dentist for the underserved.

Or say you worked on a mechanical engineering project as an undergrad which gave you an appreciation for exacting preceision and quality assurance.

Or how you like to spend free time exploring museums and sculpture gardens which gives you an appreciation for the artistic side of dentistry. Coupled with the love for the sciences, you feel dentistry is the right profession as it is amalgam of science and art.

Or how your continued progression in academia has given you a passion for lifelong learning. Dentistry satiates this passion as you maintain proficiency through seminars in updated technology and academic breakthroughs.

Or how as an officer in your fraternity/sorority, you developed a keen sense of peer leadership in a small group format - a format very similar to that of running a clinic.

Just examples...I have no idea what your background is. If you didn't write to experiences on your PS, maybe you can expand on some during the interview process.

What I do know is that probably several hundred to a thousand other applicants have similar numbers as you, have shadowed, and have done ECAs. Differentiate yourself from your experiences...

Best of luck on the cycle...I am most definitely rooting for you! I appreciate your dedication, but unfortunately, I am not on an ADCOM.

I mean, I see where you are going with these examples, but IMHO none of those have the "wow- jump- out- at- you" effect. Me personally, I wrote and nauseum about fly tying, all types of fishing, hunting, cooking, and olympic rifle shooting, but i also had the elementary school mentoring, children's hospital, blah blah blah and published papers, research, etc.

Can you see the difference?

 

[THINKOFMYFUTURE]

Alright dude(tte) I'll just tell it like it is.

Too many people here obviously make things sound too nice. Being jolly and all is nice, yes, but really only when you are in, in the position to give advice for fun, and resting on laurels, so to speak.

1. You must apply early.

2. Either do a post-bac or extend your stay to boost your GPA to 3.3. Doin a post-bac obviously will take atleast a year from now. Staying an extra semester or two would be best ,time-wise.

3. Re-take the DAT's. Yes. a 21 is great! - 5 years ago. With a sub-3.3 GPA you need a DAT that is still higher than 21, but, more importantly, you need to have every section higher than 21, preferably a few sections higher than 21. I'd just go insane and get a 24+ everything, case closed.

4. People focusing on your extracurriculars. Haha, come on. Are you really going to do nothing and embellish your extras, banking on them to get you in?
That is horrible, horrible advice.

5. Take the initiative in everything you do from now on towards getting in. You said this will be your last try. Give it no less than the best. That means, seeing the situation as it is. If you want success you won't get it without an outstanding strategy. (Not, "I guess I'm okay, let me apply again because my DAT's are so solid, and, let me try putting this under my extracurriculars to see if it helps!")

6. Don't give up. Think positive. Most importantly, be smart. I mean apply being smart, think like a doctor, act like one, in both studying, filling out applications, and, in any other aspect of getting into dental school.

7. When you get in, think thoroughly about how you advise future applicants. The fact that your can draw from your own experience to help others is a joy in it self.

FYI: I too had a 3.1 my senior year. After raising it to 3.3 straight-acing many upper level sciences and retaking my 19/19/17pat to a 22/23/24, redoing my essay, adding to my extras, AND applying on day 1, I can now say I'm going to be a dentist! 🙂 (Well, dental student first, but still, hehe). 🙂

 

[erk005]

I disagree with the previous poster about retaking your DAT. I am in a similar situation 3.4oGPA 3.3sGPA 20/19/21 AA/TS/PAT. I have spoken to a Dean and an admissions officer about why I got rejected etc...and it is low GPA, specifically sGPA. When I got rejected from this school I had a 3.3oGPA and a 3.18sGPA (and also lower DAT). The only thing I have heard about my DAT scores were, "those are competitive" etc. With a 20 DAT, you are likely between the 80th-90th percentile, and about a third of dental school applicants get in. Do the math, it is the GPA.

 

[subdoc]

4. People focusing on your extracurriculars. Haha, come on. Are you really going to do nothing and embellish your extras, banking on them to get you in?
That is horrible, horrible advice.

Congrats on getting in and being in a position to rest on your laurels. Your advice is great, esp the part about getting greater than a 24 on your DAT. Very original advice and I am sure both the high score and early application are groundbreaking news to all pre-dents...

...however, the question from OP was why no interview offers were coming their way. Numbers look pretty good, not great, but definitely better than average. Should be getting interviews. I was pointing out the OP should look at ways he/she breaks away from your typical applicant with similar numbers. One way is through experiences worded properly on a good personal statement. 'Nuff said. Schools really do read the PS. If they didn't, I wouldn't get a whiff of an interview offer b/c my numbers are crap. If I get into a school this year, it will be based on my resume and experiences, not numbers because in that regard I am an average to below-average applicant.

 

[hsia2]

i agree with the above post
My GPA is even lower..merely 3.25. DAT= 22
However, I am still accepted
The reason why i think I am accepted is because of my personality, which is reflected in my personal statement
Some of the schools that interviewed me also really liked me
That being said, below average GPA can still really hurt you
Nevertheless, if you boost your EC/ personal statement
I am pretty sure you will get in
Good Luck 🙂

 

[doc toothache]

The first time I applied, I had a 3.1 science GPA and 3.3 overall GPA, and I scored an 18/18 on the DAT. I had 100+ hours of job shadowing and other extracurriculars. I went all out and applied to 24 schools and didn't get a single interview. Major money waste.
This last year, I applied with a 3.2 science GPA and a 3.4 overall GPA, and I retook the DAT and scored 20/21. I had more extracurriculars. I applied to 14 schools and did not get a single interview. Again. Money waste.

Think of all the money you could save by simply not applying.

 

[THINKOFMYFUTURE]

Congrats on getting in and being in a position to rest on your laurels. Your advice is great, esp the part about getting greater than a 24 on your DAT. Very original advice and I am sure both the high score and early application are groundbreaking news to all pre-dents...

...however, the question from OP was why no interview offers were coming their way. Numbers look pretty good, not great, but definitely better than average. Should be getting interviews. I was pointing out the OP should look at ways he/she breaks away from your typical applicant with similar numbers. One way is through experiences worded properly on a good personal statement. 'Nuff said. Schools really do read the PS. If they didn't, I wouldn't get a whiff of an interview offer b/c my numbers are crap. If I get into a school this year, it will be based on my resume and experiences, not numbers because in that regard I am an average to below-average applicant.

Point 1: Who told you that those scores were "Better than average, and should lead to an interview"?
Point 2: Breaking away from the typical applicant? Haha. Have you looked at the actual contents of the EC sections of any applicant at all? You will find the usual run-of-the mill, what they think to be unique falling into the same old crap that every other applicant and their cousin has.
Point 3: You assume that OP's personal statement is bad, and at the same time give yours way too much credit.

Any school needs and wants NUMBERS FIRST. In the case of the OP, one out of two important numbers is LOW. Thus the OP NEEDS a HIGHER second number (DAT).

Plus, he/she needs to do try whatever is humanly possible to get in. If that means re-taking the DAT and getting a perfect 30 to achieve entrance well, that's something that's gotta be done.

How dare do you dish out totally garbage 'advice' based on personal and incoherent conjectures that has no basis at all other than referring to your own personal statement and bloated extras that may or may not be the real reason you got interviews.

OP don't kid yourself. You want to get in, forget EC's get your grades and DAT's up.

To those who talk about personality, it's about damn time y'all got your heads out of your asses.

 

[THINKOFMYFUTURE]

I disagree with the previous poster about retaking your DAT. I am in a similar situation 3.4oGPA 3.3sGPA 20/19/21 AA/TS/PAT. I have spoken to a Dean and an admissions officer about why I got rejected etc...and it is low GPA, specifically sGPA. When I got rejected from this school I had a 3.3oGPA and a 3.18sGPA (and also lower DAT). The only thing I have heard about my DAT scores were, "those are competitive" etc. With a 20 DAT, you are likely between the 80th-90th percentile, and about a third of dental school applicants get in. Do the math, it is the GPA.

And if you were around enough, you would have came across threads where an applicant having heard such words of consolation from Deans, D4's, Presidents,
going along with just that then consequently getting rewarded with yet another friendly rejection a year later...

They are brushing you off. If you are not part of a school's entering class, I'm sorry to say this but they are not interested in you, UNLESS you go above and beyond your previous failed application - this means bringing everything up.

Besides, the applicant pool is getting more and more competitive every year and has been dramatically for the past 5. (You can even search about this on SDN from older posts).

3.3/21 would have been outstanding 3 years ago. But now, I see so many of these people asking why I didn't get in, etc, etc. I know because I was in the exact same boat a year ago. I did my research, were aware of some bad advice, but luckily followed the good ones before long. The bottom-line is I'm in this year because I improved tremendously over last year in my "hard stats" - GPA and mostly my DAT's. My personal statement, extras, didn't change much.

I'm not here to screw you over OP. I just felt compelled to counter the horrendous advice and dangerously lackadaisical attitude of some previous respondents. Good advice is what made me; whereas bad advice would have costed me my dreams, not to mention some serious pain, emotional or otherwise. It is a serious matter.

To anything, there's the easy way and the way that challenges you. How can you argue to take it easy by embellishing extracurriculars and personal statements (which can both be done using MS WORD and 30 minutes), when the OP arguably is facing a crisis.

Work hard, and you'll get the results; there's no other way.

 

[Badgerfaithful]

Work hard, and you'll get the results; there's no other way.

👍

 

[subdoc]

Point 1: Who told you that those scores were "Better than average, and should lead to an interview"?

No one TOLD me...I read the ADEA Guide, the source document for statistics. I infer from entering class stats - in which the OP is above the mean for DAT and slightly below the mean in GPA - an interview should be there. And to avoid rebuttal by you, I understand the numbers represented are from the 2008 entering class. Although trends point upward, it is fractional over two years.

Point 2: Breaking away from the typical applicant? Haha. Have you looked at the actual contents of the EC sections of any applicant at all? You will find the usual run-of-the mill, what they think to be unique falling into the same old crap that every other applicant and their cousin has.

You are making my point for me. Thanks! What people percieve to be "run-of-the mill" can actually be very ordinary in comparison to others. That is when it becomes a complete numbers game. Many people on SDN have phenomenal experiences which truly are unique and let them stand apart from their peers.

Point 3: You assume that OP's personal statement is bad, and at the same time give yours way too much credit.

Based on provided information, I am assuming the PS to be weak. Once again, refer to point 1. Yes, I have to give my PS/intangibles credit for getting me interviews b/c my numbers are on the very low end of the ADEA stat spectrum. ie: pratically a minimun on the DAT and lowish in comparison to GPA mean, although I did go to a difficult undergrad.

Any school needs and wants NUMBERS FIRST. In the case of the OP, one out of two important numbers is LOW. Thus the OP NEEDS a HIGHER second number (DAT).

Mostly agree. I would weigh the numbers portion of an application as top priority.

Plus, he/she needs to do try whatever is humanly possible to get in. If that means re-taking the DAT and getting a perfect 30 to achieve entrance well, that's something that's gotta be done

Also mostly agree; however, your example is once again extreme and unrealistic. It is difficult to drastically change a GPA, although it is possible. You can hope to maaaaybe eek out an extra .2-.25ish per year. DAT scores can come up, but like I said, 30 is unrealistic, although more than likely a shoo-in for admission.

How dare do you dish out totally garbage 'advice' based on personal and incoherent conjectures that has no basis at all other than referring to your own personal statement and bloated extras that may or may not be the real reason you got interviews.

Seriously? Unlike some SDN posters, I do not put misleading information out there. Everything I write comes from direct advice given to me by admissions faculty and from my personal experiences throughout the process, pretty much the antithesis of conjecture. Also, my "extras" are not bloated - a little thing I call integrity.

OP don't kid yourself. You want to get in, forget EC's get your grades and DAT's up.).

I agree, get your numbers up. Per discussion with ADCOM members in order of priorty: 1 - DAT, 2 - GPA, 3 - Diversity. This statement is pretty much universal for every school I have been in communication with. It's kind of like football, you win two phases of the game (Offense, Defense, Special Teams) you will almost always win the game.

To those who talk about personality, it's about damn time y'all got your heads out of your asses.

I hope this attitude does not carry over to your chair. It's one thing to "act" during an interview, but can you do it every day for the next 30-40 years?