Need help with a lab situation

[byaaaaaaah23]

I need help deciding how acceptable this scenario would be:

I worked in a very large/busy lab during Spring '11 (10 hrs/wk) and Summer '11 (full-time). I interviewed with the PI and entered the lab thinking I'd be able to do some meaningful stuff but I ended up just doing the grunt work for a 5th year grad student who really really wants to graduate. My day to day consisted of running PCRs etc until July, when I switched to very basic data analysis (I was essentially a human computer) but did a very high volume of work (more than people who had been there since Jan '11 and before).

I've been planning on switching to a different lab for Fall '11 because I want to do MD/PhD and I really want some autonomous experience in a lab. I also want to find a lab more closely aligned with my interests. However, I've been asked to stay on in my current lab (I think they really appreciate my help, but not a lot is expected of me), even if it's just ~3 hrs/wk.

I really don't want to stay because I'd like to devote my time towards something that will actually stimulate me and benefit my resume. The only reason I would stay would be if I could get on a publication. Since my grad student is set to graduate in 2012, I know he's (hopefully) going to publish his results sometime soon, I just don't know if he would allow me to be an author.

TL DR: My question is, is it rude to ask up-front if I will be able to work on something myself and/or if I will be able to assist in preparing publications/be an author? I'd really like to get a LOR from this lab and don't want to burn this bridge, but I just don't know if it's worth my time anymore.

I'm a rising junior, so I really don't have that much time to add to my resume if I want to apply next summer.

Any opinions are appreciated!

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[atsai3]

I need help deciding how acceptable this scenario would be:

I worked in a very large/busy lab during Spring '11 (10 hrs/wk) and Summer '11 (full-time). I interviewed with the PI and entered the lab thinking I'd be able to do some meaningful stuff but I ended up just doing the grunt work for a 5th year grad student who really really wants to graduate. My day to day consisted of running PCRs etc until July, when I switched to very basic data analysis (I was essentially a human computer) but did a very high volume of work (more than people who had been there since Jan '11 and before).

I've been planning on switching to a different lab for Fall '11 because I want to do MD/PhD and I really want some autonomous experience in a lab. I also want to find a lab more closely aligned with my interests. However, I've been asked to stay on in my current lab (I think they really appreciate my help, but not a lot is expected of me), even if it's just ~3 hrs/wk.

I really don't want to stay because I'd like to devote my time towards something that will actually stimulate me and benefit my resume. The only reason I would stay would be if I could get on a publication. Since my grad student is set to graduate in 2012, I know he's (hopefully) going to publish his results sometime soon, I just don't know if he would allow me to be an author.

TL DR: My question is, is it rude to ask up-front if I will be able to work on something myself and/or if I will be able to assist in preparing publications/be an author? I'd really like to get a LOR from this lab and don't want to burn this bridge, but I just don't know if it's worth my time anymore.

I'm a rising junior, so I really don't have that much time to add to my resume if I want to apply next summer.

Any opinions are appreciated!

Does your PI have regular check-in meetings with you to discuss your progress, feedback, changes, etc? If not, then you are overdue for such a meeting. Since you are at a transition point, and your PI is open to you staying on for more time, then this is a great opportunity to bring up these issues. You can describe to your PI your goals (get into a MD/PhD program) and how you would like to accomplish these goals (do more than just scut work, find an opportunity to be more intellectually engaged, publish, and get a good LOR). It sounds as though staying the course will probably not provide you with an opportunity to accomplish these goals, so it is up to you to (a) request some changes or (b) move on to a better opportunity.

 

[byaaaaaaah23]

Thanks for your advice. The only time I met one-on-one with my PI was when I briefly interviewed with him after emailing to say that I wanted to work with him. This summer, he met with the four students in the lab twice as a group and the focus was mostly discussing previous papers in the lab. He's extremely busy and I'm not sure how receptive he would be to a request to meet one-on-one when I return to campus in the fall. I've been dealing exclusively with the graduate student I've been working with, and he was the one who said I could stay on.

That said, the lab has turned out 3 pubs since May 2010, and the last one has about 30 authors, including most of the techs (4/6). This leads me to believe that I might be able to get onto the next one (don't know how soon it would be published) but as a very high number author. Would it be worth sticking around for this?

Also, would it be "okay" to stay at a minimum level of involvement in this lab while also joining a new one? Is this frowned upon?

 

[warypremed]

Thanks for your advice. The only time I met one-on-one with my PI was when I briefly interviewed with him after emailing to say that I wanted to work with him. This summer, he met with the four students in the lab twice as a group and the focus was mostly discussing previous papers in the lab. He's extremely busy and I'm not sure how receptive he would be to a request to meet one-on-one when I return to campus in the fall. I've been dealing exclusively with the graduate student I've been working with, and he was the one who said I could stay on.

That said, the lab has turned out 3 pubs since May 2010, and the last one has about 30 authors, including most of the techs (4/6). This leads me to believe that I might be able to get onto the next one (don't know how soon it would be published) but as a very high number author. Would it be worth sticking around for this?

Also, would it be "okay" to stay at a minimum level of involvement in this lab while also joining a new one? Is this frowned upon?

If you feel like your PI will not be very receptive, and he says he's too busy, there may also be the option of talking to the graduate student you work with regarding a bit more independence and see what he says- then the graduate student may be able to relay it to the PI and you can work something out regarding workload/projects with the graduate student. I don't know if this would cause more of a problem, but if your PI can't take the time for you, and you want more independence, you need to ask for it before leaving. I would not leave without asking first, as moving to a new lab might look bad to your old PI with no specific reasoning.

And while I've never done it, it seems like it would be a bit of a pain to work in 2 labs. Better to be focused on one, IMHO. Perhaps others think differently. I don't know whether it's necessarily frowned upon or not.

 

[byaaaaaaah23]

@warypremed,

I don't think my PI would care if I left since my main motivation is to pursue something closer to my major/field of interest. What he does is not really related (genetics vs proteins).

I guess I should try asking my graduate student. I'm just not sure how lab politics/hierarchies work and don't want to offend anyone by asking for a project/more independence as a lowly undergrad.

 

[warypremed]

@warypremed,

I don't think my PI would care if I left since my main motivation is to pursue something closer to my major/field of interest. What he does is not really related (genetics vs proteins).

I guess I should try asking my graduate student. I'm just not sure how lab politics/hierarchies work and don't want to offend anyone by asking for a project/more independence as a lowly undergrad.

I think either way, if you can somehow bring up to your PI or graduate student that perhaps working on something a bit more independently would be great, it would be better rather than leaving outright. Even if your PI does not necessarily care that you leave, he might take slight offense or I guess just be slightly disappointed that you left for something that was closer to your field of interest.

I've talked with my own PI before and have mentioned a couple of times about other investigators I was interested in and prior plans before joining the lab, and every time it came up my PI seemed slightly disappointed. Glad that I chose the lab but I felt like sometimes my PI would rather I not talk about it. My PI is really approachable though and fairly available whenever so I have a different relationship with my PI than you do with your own obviously. Who knows, I could be completely wrong in what your PI will think. But do you get what I mean when I say he may be slightly disappointed even if he did not devote that much effort in you?

After trying to bring up the discussion of getting more independence in your current lab nothing falls through, then maybe switching is a good idea. After being there for that long I don't think you should feel like a "lowly undergrad". You should obviously start emailing other PIs in this case to make sure you can get another position and a more independent role. You don't want to be miserable in your research experience and talk about it poorly when you go to interviews. I think if in past publications there have been 30+ authors you should get a publication even with leaving considering that amount of work you say you've done. It's the PI's decision and obviously depends on the project but it's not as if all 30 authors had a part in preparing the manuscript.... but again, IMHO. I'm not a PI.

Good luck!

 

[byaaaaaaah23]

Thanks for your advice. I think I'll try contacting my PI to ask for an individual meeting when I return to campus at the end of the month to see if they can give me any kind of independence. If not, I'll say that I'd like to explore other interests. To be honest, I'd really rather try my hand at something else more related to where I see my career going.

Worst case scenario would be getting a bad letter from this PI though.

 

[byaaaaaaah23]

Sooo I got a reply back from a new professor (Professor A) that I just contacted about working with. In that email, I stated my previous research experience (Professor X's lab). He said he's doing a project with Professor X (I didn't mention I was in this lab) and asked if I was interested in continuing with that area (genetics). I didn't know Professor X was working with Professor A.

I don't really want to continue with Professor X's work because I want to try something new and I'm not interested in pursuing his field further in my education. My plan is just to say that I would prefer to work on Professor A's other stuff. But maybe they could give me some cool kind of project together?? Not sure.

Does it look bad if I say yes to continuing on my old field in the hopes that I would get my own project, since then Professor X will find out that I was contacting other labs? However, I'm also not really sure how good this letter could be anyway, since I had such little contact with Professor X, and thus maybe it doesn't matter if he finds out.

Thoughts?? Sorry if this is confusing to understand, let me know if it is!

 

[kaleerkalut]

I need help deciding how acceptable this scenario would be:

I worked in a very large/busy lab during Spring '11 (10 hrs/wk) and Summer '11 (full-time). I interviewed with the PI and entered the lab thinking I'd be able to do some meaningful stuff but I ended up just doing the grunt work for a 5th year grad student who really really wants to graduate. My day to day consisted of running PCRs etc until July, when I switched to very basic data analysis (I was essentially a human computer) but did a very high volume of work (more than people who had been there since Jan '11 and before).

I've been planning on switching to a different lab for Fall '11 because I want to do MD/PhD and I really want some autonomous experience in a lab. I also want to find a lab more closely aligned with my interests. However, I've been asked to stay on in my current lab (I think they really appreciate my help, but not a lot is expected of me), even if it's just ~3 hrs/wk.

I really don't want to stay because I'd like to devote my time towards something that will actually stimulate me and benefit my resume. The only reason I would stay would be if I could get on a publication. Since my grad student is set to graduate in 2012, I know he's (hopefully) going to publish his results sometime soon, I just don't know if he would allow me to be an author.

TL DR: My question is, is it rude to ask up-front if I will be able to work on something myself and/or if I will be able to assist in preparing publications/be an author? I'd really like to get a LOR from this lab and don't want to burn this bridge, but I just don't know if it's worth my time anymore.

I'm a rising junior, so I really don't have that much time to add to my resume if I want to apply next summer.

Any opinions are appreciated!

Read your post but not the others. I recommend being straight up about it (but not rude) and asking if you would be able to be published and get it in writing. Good luck