Need information on Caribbean Schools

[bonoz]

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I am considering Caribbean schools and need opinions on it. I have the following questions that I am trying to find more information on:

Which schools are considered good schools?
Which schools are known to accept US students?
Which schools are known for their low admission requirements?

Thanks

 

[7starmantis]

Search feature works great! 😉

There are seriously numerous threads on that subject. I would ranks the top three as SGU, Ross, and then AUC. They all accept US students (who can pay) and have "lower" admin reqs. Look at their websites and they have a lot of info. I would really consider those schools as last resorts though.

 

[FIREitUP]

please don't do it. please, take a year off get your grades up, retake your mcat, apply DO.

 

[7starmantis]

please don't do it. please, take a year off get your grades up, retake your mcat, apply DO.

DO or MD. I was accepted to all three, decided to stay for another cycle and have two MD acceptances. Like I said (and most will agree) this should be a last (very last) resort.

 

[Thomas Hearns]

DO or MD. I was accepted to all three, decided to stay for another cycle and have two MD acceptances. Like I said (and most will agree) this should be a last (very last) resort.

That's gotta feel good 🙂👍

 

[7starmantis]

That's gotta feel good 🙂👍

Thanks! I haven't felt so good about a decision my whole life!! lol

 

[apumic]

I am considering Caribbean schools and need opinions on it. I have the following questions that I am trying to find more information on:

Which schools are considered good schools?
Which schools are known to accept US students?
Which schools are known for their low admission requirements?

Thanks

1. US & MD schools
2. Most of them
3. ALL of them (hence #1)

Take-away: avoid the Caribbean; if you can't make a US school, reapply... If you still don't get in, go NP or PA... or EMT-P (zero app prereqs at many programs/easy admission)

 

[7starmantis]

Take-away: avoid the Caribbean; if you can't make a US school, reapply... If you still don't get in, go NP or PA... or EMT-P (zero app prereqs at many programs/easy admission)

I can't agree with this at all. I agree that it is by far (and I mean by very far) better to go to a US med school, but if you honestly can't get in and have a passion to be a physician, head to the Caribbean. The only school I personally would consider would be SGU (its even listed as an equivalent school by the Texas Medical Board). The road is much harder and requires more determination, work, and maturity, but can be done. I know many, many very successful IMG's that have very successful careers and practice medicine (what they love to do) everyday.

 

[Thomas Hearns]

Thanks! I haven't felt so good about a decision my whole life!! lol

I can imagine. I know the pain of rejection many times over... finally had to open my eyes to DO schools, but it's a much better option, in my opinion, than Carib MD

Here is a post I like to quote, for the OPs reference

That's impressive... I'll just address a few points (some of this is from the post I linked above):

A trend in the match at the moment (which will only get worse as Allopathic class sizes increase) is the number of foreign (carib) and DO grads that are not matching into MD residencies.

This year 93% of US MD grads matched.
70% of US DO grads that applied for the MD Match matched.
48% of Students from Carib or other Foreign Schools matched.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

USMD 93.1% (-)1.1% from last year
USDO 69.9% (-)1.7% from last year
USIMG 47.8% (-)4.1% from last year


As noted above, DO students have the option to match into their own match. This means that if the MD match eventually becomes prohibitively competitive for US DOs, they will still have an alternative, while foreign MDs will not have any fallback.


Another issue is that DO schools tend to have attrition rates on par with MD schools, roughly 95% of the entering class will graduate. Carib schools will start with a very large class that gets much smaller throughout the first two years. You must pass their qualifying exam in order to take the USMLE, then you must pass the USMLE to move on to clerkships. There are a lot of points where you can be pruned out along the way. Once you do get to clerkships, a lot of the legwork is left to you. The school may have some hospitals that have agreed to accept their students, but it is up to you to work out the nitty-gritty details of when you get to rotate through.

Finally, there's the subjective issue of accreditation. US Allo schools are accredited by LCME and US DO schools are accredited by the AACOM. Foreign medical schools may carry some accreditation by the WHO, but this is not as standardized as the LCME and AACOM accreditation. Part of the issue with residency match is that the USMLE is just a single gauge of one's training. It doesn't include the standardization of the curriculum that the LCME or AACOM accreditation assures. This may be why US DOs are matching in higher percentages than Carib MD grads.

 

[apumic]

I can't agree with this at all. I agree that it is by far (and I mean by very far) better to go to a US med school, but if you honestly can't get in and have a passion to be a physician, head to the Caribbean. The only school I personally would consider would be SGU (its even listed as an equivalent school by the Texas Medical Board). The road is much harder and requires more determination, work, and maturity, but can be done. I know many, many very successful IMG's that have very successful careers and practice medicine (what they love to do) everyday.

If you repeatedly fail to be accepted by ANY US school, there has to be a significant reason -- probably several. One should take those rejections at face value, not as some sort of conspiracy against him. While you could consider the carib, the vast majority of students from those programs wishing to practice here will never be able to practice in the US. As a result, it may make more sense in that case to avoid the debt..

 

[apumic]

...IMO 30k debt w/o an MD but w a PA>>>>>>300k debt w/ a generous 25% chance at becoming a physician!

 

[jvesco22]

Take-away: avoid the Caribbean; if you can't make a US school, reapply... If you still don't get in, go NP or PA... or EMT-P (zero app prereqs at many programs/easy admission)

You're joking right?

 

[icalz]

To the OP: just want to put in my two cents; I don't know what your situation is but everyone is right on advising you to try everything to get into a US school (MD or DO)....HOWEVER, if you cannot get into either one then don't hesitate to go to SGU or Ross. If you work hard there and do well on your boards you WILL be a doctor, simple as that. Just keep those two words in mind though: "work" and "hard" and you'll be okay. If being a doctor is your dream then the carib is a viable vehicle.

 

[causalinference]

Avoid the Caribbean. You don't want that kind of debt unless you're guaranteed to land a US residency (pro-tip: you won't be guaranteed).

 

[apumic]

You're joking right?

Sure...if you mean in terms of "easy admission" (I was only referring to EMT-P programs sometimes having very few if any real admissions criteria), but if we're talking median career outcome of carib vs PA student, the PA got a FAR better deal since the avg carib student flunks out w 100s of thousands of dollars of debt or (in the case of the slightly stronger ones) gets an MD but can't get into a US residency and so cannot practice in the US. As a result, I'd suggest someone who repeatedly fails to get into a US program reconsider the possibility of midlevel trng -- it's cheaper & the work is somewhat similar (albeit w restrictions). You may also get more lifestyle benefits & the pay is still extremely good.

 

[7starmantis]

If you repeatedly fail to be accepted by ANY US school, there has to be a significant reason -- probably several. One should take those rejections at face value, not as some sort of conspiracy against him. While you could consider the carib, the vast majority of students from those programs wishing to practice here will never be able to practice in the US. As a result, it may make more sense in that case to avoid the debt..

...IMO 30k debt w/o an MD but w a PA>>>>>>300k debt w/ a generous 25% chance at becoming a physician!

Avoid the Caribbean. You don't want that kind of debt unless you're guaranteed to land a US residency (pro-tip: you won't be guaranteed).

Sure...if you mean in terms of "easy admission" (I was only referring to EMT-P programs sometimes having very few if any real admissions criteria), but if we're talking median career outcome of carib vs PA student, the PA got a FAR better deal since the avg carib student flunks out w 100s of thousands of dollars of debt or (in the case of the slightly stronger ones) gets an MD but can't get into a US residency and so cannot practice in the US. As a result, I'd suggest someone who repeatedly fails to get into a US program reconsider the possibility of midlevel trng -- it's cheaper & the work is somewhat similar (albeit w restrictions). You may also get more lifestyle benefits & the pay is still extremely good.

Misinformation and naïveté.

 

[apumic]

Misinformation and naïveté.

Have you looked up the actual data or are you just spewing at the mouth for some other reason? Are you planning on going to the Carib or have a friend in med school down there? Fact is, those schools are generally less reputable than US-based schools. That's not to say you can't be successful but why take the chance? You haven't actually said anything of value. You're basically attacking others' arguments by whining that they're wrong. If you disagree, argue it with some facts.
Last I recall seeing, 48% of Caribbean grads who apply for a US residency will gain one. Further, at Ross of the 200 who began as M1s one year, only 80 made it to clinical rotations, which is an attrition rate of 60%!
So you do the math -- 48% of the 40% who get to clinicals will actually end up w/ a US residency and become eligible to practice in the US.
That means only 19% will be eligible to practice in the US!

And the fact of the matter is that that's a generous estimate because not everyone who makes it to 3rd year clinicals will end up graduating. As a result, it's probably a bit less than 19%.

So now do the math. Let's say this student plans to go into a lucrative specialty. For instance, how about we compare a derm PA w/ a derm MD:

MD: base $308,000 (w/ >3 yrs' practice)
PA: base $110,474

So the MD makes almost 3x as much. That's pretty good...until you consider debt:

average debt...

MD: (conservative estimate -- non-Caribbean): $150,000
PA: $56,909

Once again, MD is almost 3x the amount, which is fine...

...Until you factor in your chances of success:

PA:
If you get in...
debt: $56,909 (min $95,607 after interest)

If you don't get in...
debt: $0

If you don't get your specialty
debt: $56,909
salary: >$80,000


MD (Caribbean):
If you get in...
debt: $150,000+ ($252,000 min w/ interest)

If you don't get a (U.S.) residency (81+% chance)
debt: $56,909
salary: $0 (at least unless you're willing to work somewhere outside the US that accepts Carib students more easily)

If we do it mathematically, here are our averages if we took an infinite number of trials per the above, assuming a 35-year career (age 30-65):
MD=-$252,200+19%*$308,000*35 years=$1,796,200 total life earnings
PA=-$95,607+100%*$110,474*35 years=$3,770,983 total life earnings

So... 1.8 million or 3.8 million... which would you prefer?

 

[7starmantis]

Have you looked up the actual data or are you just spewing at the mouth for some other reason? Are you planning on going to the Carib or have a friend in med school down there? Fact is, those schools are generally less reputable than US-based schools. That's not to say you can't be successful but why take the chance? You haven't actually said anything of value. You're basically attacking others' arguments by whining that they're wrong. If you disagree, argue it with some facts.

Calm down there tiger. I was accepted to all three top (by my estimates) Caribbean schools before receiving my acceptances (MD) here in the states (that means I did hella research on all of them). I do know several people at all three of those schools (I'm sure these confessions make me such a biased person I can't really comment in this thread, eh? 🙄) as well as a multitude of practicing physicians from many foreign med schools. No one said they weren't "less reputable" albeit that terminology is probably misleading (if not disingenuous). I'm sorry to step in front of your full frontal attack on Caribbean schools or their students, but its just the facts maam.

The problem isn't the facts, the problem is the misuse and misrepresentation of the facts. Its erroneous to take "Caribbean" stats as a whole (including all schools) because some are worse/better than others, many students aren't even citizens of the US and have no interest in gaining residencies here, etc etc etc. 99% of SGU graduates match residencies including nealry all specialties (SGU 2009 Match)

Bottom line is you can live your life by statistical analysis and fear or go out and follow your dream. No one is saying its easy or better to go the Caribbean route, but it is a valid path to MD if you are unable to get accepted in the states. The fact is if you are determined to succeed you can. Attrition rates be damned, debt be damned, you can do it. I know a head of trauma surgery that makes nearly $1 million a year (on only 50% of what he bills) and is a foreign med grad. I know a Caribbean grad who is a neurosurgery resident at UT Southwestern. Its all about you and your desire, drive, and motivation.

I'm not going to argue your convoluted and unfounded stats or numbers, I haven't the time or inclination. If you want to be a PA go be a PA, if however your passion is to be an MD, going to a top (accredited) Caribbean school is a doable path that will get you to practicing. Bottom line.

Is it hard? Yes. Is it risky? Yes. Is it expensive? Yes. Is it worth you time on a statistical analysis of happiness and fulfillment? Not sure. Will you be a practicing MD in the US if you want to be? Yes. You only become an attrition stat if you drop out. Its a valid path, just weigh your options. I decided to stay and then received multiple MD acceptances in my state, so think through your decision, but it is possible regardless of the mathematical and statistical blanket thrown over the schools in this thread.

 

[jvesco22]

Have you looked up the actual data or are you just spewing at the mouth for some other reason? Are you planning on going to the Carib or have a friend in med school down there? Fact is, those schools are generally less reputable than US-based schools. That's not to say you can't be successful but why take the chance? You haven't actually said anything of value. You're basically attacking others' arguments by whining that they're wrong. If you disagree, argue it with some facts.
Last I recall seeing, 48% of Caribbean grads who apply for a US residency will gain one. Further, at Ross of the 200 who began as M1s one year, only 80 made it to clinical rotations, which is an attrition rate of 60%!
So you do the math -- 48% of the 40% who get to clinicals will actually end up w/ a US residency and become eligible to practice in the US.
That means only 19% will be eligible to practice in the US!

And the fact of the matter is that that's a generous estimate because not everyone who makes it to 3rd year clinicals will end up graduating. As a result, it's probably a bit less than 19%.

So now do the math. Let's say this student plans to go into a lucrative specialty. For instance, how about we compare a derm PA w/ a derm MD:

MD: base $308,000 (w/ >3 yrs' practice)
PA: base $110,474

So the MD makes almost 3x as much. That's pretty good...until you consider debt:

average debt...

MD: (conservative estimate -- non-Caribbean): $150,000
PA: $56,909

Once again, MD is almost 3x the amount, which is fine...

...Until you factor in your chances of success:

PA:
If you get in...
debt: $56,909 (min $95,607 after interest)

If you don't get in...
debt: $0

If you don't get your specialty
debt: $56,909
salary: >$80,000


MD (Caribbean):
If you get in...
debt: $150,000+ ($252,000 min w/ interest)

If you don't get a (U.S.) residency (81+% chance)
debt: $56,909
salary: $0 (at least unless you're willing to work somewhere outside the US that accepts Carib students more easily)

If we do it mathematically, here are our averages if we took an infinite number of trials per the above, assuming a 35-year career (age 30-65):
MD=-$252,200+19%*$308,000*35 years=$1,796,200 total life earnings
PA=-$95,607+100%*$110,474*35 years=$3,770,983 total life earnings

So... 1.8 million or 3.8 million... which would you prefer?

The funny thing is that in this thread, you show your true colors as someone who is all about the mighty dollar yet you try to come off as altruistic in other threads...

It's all about the benjamins baby!!! amidoinitrite?

Calm down there tiger. I was accepted to all three top (by my estimates) Caribbean schools before receiving my acceptances (MD) here in the states (that means I did hella research on all of them). I do know several people at all three of those schools (I'm sure these confessions make me such a biased person I can't really comment in this thread, eh? 🙄) as well as a multitude of practicing physicians from many foreign med schools. No one said they weren't "less reputable" albeit that terminology is probably misleading (if not disingenuous). I'm sorry to step in front of your full frontal attack on Caribbean schools or their students, but its just the facts maam.

The problem isn't the facts, the problem is the misuse and misrepresentation of the facts. Its erroneous to take "Caribbean" stats as a whole (including all schools) because some are worse/better than others, many students aren't even citizens of the US and have no interest in gaining residencies here, etc etc etc. 99% of SGU graduates match residencies including nealry all specialties (SGU 2009 Match)

Bottom line is you can live your life by statistical analysis and fear or go out and follow your dream. No one is saying its easy or better to go the Caribbean route, but it is a valid path to MD if you are unable to get accepted in the states. The fact is if you are determined to succeed you can. Attrition rates be damned, debt be damned, you can do it. I know a head of trauma surgery that makes nearly $1 million a year (on only 50% of what he bills) and is a foreign med grad. I know a Caribbean grad who is a neurosurgery resident at UT Southwestern. Its all about you and your desire, drive, and motivation.

I'm not going to argue your convoluted and unfounded stats or numbers, I haven't the time or inclination. If you want to be a PA go be a PA, if however your passion is to be an MD, going to a top (accredited) Caribbean school is a doable path that will get you to practicing. Bottom line.

Is it hard? Yes. Is it risky? Yes. Is it expensive? Yes. Is it worth you time on a statistical analysis of happiness and fulfillment? Not sure. Will you be a practicing MD in the US if you want to be? Yes. You only become an attrition stat if you drop out. Its a valid path, just weigh your options. I decided to stay and then received multiple MD acceptances in my state, so think through your decision, but it is possible regardless of the mathematical and statistical blanket thrown over the schools in this thread.

This post sounds a lot more like someone who actually has a passion to become a doctor. Very good points.

 

[icalz]

Misinformation and naïveté.

I thoroughly agree with starmantis...after extensive research. Can you find your carib horror stories? Of course. Can you find extraordinary success stories? They're there also. A guy just posted on a thread that he shadowed a plastic surgeon from sgu. While this is a very rare occurrence, it is proof-positive that if you are competent and diligent going to sgu or ross is not a gamble...and if i'm not mistaken the residency placement for sgu grads is closer to 97%. Someone is lumping in all carib schools together and sounding like an alarmist.

 

[causalinference]

Misinformation and naïveté.

Wrong. Your chances of landing a US residency are much lower as a Caribbean graduate. Can it be done? Of course. But I wouldn't take the risk.

The gap between Caribbean requirements and DO requirements is not great enough to warrant attending a Caribbean medical school. Compare the stats of an average SGU student to an average DO student.

If a Caribbean school is your last chance to become a physician and satisfy your goal in life, then the question "Is it worth the risk?" is basically a personal question that can't be settled objectively.

 

[causalinference]

EDIT: Double post.

 

[WNT Signaling]

OP, a similar site to SDN is called ValueMD; it will be able to answer a lot of your questions about Caribbean schools

 

[zinki949]

In all honesty... I don't see why going to a caribbean school is "all that bad," as long as it is a recognized school in your state... there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[7starmantis]

and if i'm not mistaken the residency placement for sgu grads is closer to 97%. Someone is lumping in all carib schools together and sounding like an alarmist.

Some good points.
I know a FMG that bills $1.5 million a year (admittedly only receiving around 50%, so sad) as head of trauma surgery for a large hospital system. Its all about your passion and willingness to work; as well as a willingness to lay aside ego and pride.

Wrong. Your chances of landing a US residency are much lower as a Caribbean graduate. Can it be done? Of course. But I wouldn't take the risk.

The gap between Caribbean requirements and DO requirements is not great enough to warrant attending a Caribbean medical school. Compare the stats of an average SGU student to an average DO student.

If a Caribbean school is your last chance to become a physician and satisfy your goal in life, then the question "Is it worth the risk?" is basically a personal question that can't be settled objectively.

No one said your chances aren't lower....please read the full posts. Lower chances doesn't mean no chance.

How would you explain someone like me not being accepted DO but being accepted to all Caribbean (top three) schools and then receiving multiple MD acceptances here in the states? There are reasons to attend a Carib school and the joke is on those people who want to be doctors but go to PA school because they will be working for their colleagues that went to SGU; in a few years.

OP, a similar site to SDN is called ValueMD; it will be able to answer a lot of your questions about Caribbean schools

👍

 

[apumic]

The funny thing is that in this thread, you show your true colors as someone who is all about the mighty dollar yet you try to come off as altruistic in other threads...

It's all about the benjamins baby!!! amidoinitrite?



This post sounds a lot more like someone who actually has a passion to become a doctor. Very good points.

haha, funny.

For a lot of people it is about the money; that's true. For me, it's about the patients, the people I am serving. The reality is that anyone going into this for the money is a fool, plain and simple. As long as I can pay back my loans, I'm good. However, I think it's critical that we be good stewards of our financial resources and I don't believe the Caribbean schools do a good job of helping students be good stewards since the majority end up in such great debt w/o anything to show for it. That's very poor stewardship.

So while some do excel from coming out of a Caribbean school, I think most would be better off reapplying and if they don't get in multiple times, they should reconsider whether becoming a physician is right for them since multiple years of rejections (if applying broadly and so forth) indicates, to put it bluntly, that no one sees potential in that person -- at least not in comparison to multiple years' groups of applicants. That, to me, is a pretty big red flag.

I also would agree that Caribbean schools vary in quality. For that reason, I would suggest the OP check out ValueMD and ask about schools there. If nothing in the U.S. works out, the Caribbean can be a second choice but there are some significant risks that absolutely must be taken into consideration. Remember that stories tend to be self-selective. That is, everyone "knows someone" with a success story because people are much more likely to share their successes. IIRC, a very large number of residency spots go to Caribbean applicants (nearly as many as US student, IIRC). The problem is there are over twice the number of applicants for residency from outside the U.S. and, as a result, most of those applicants won't get a spot. So sure, with that many applicants you are bound to get some in competitive specialties. On the other hand, you won't hear nearly as many stories of failure b/c who comes back home to brag about how they flunked out or got turned down for a U.S. residency?!? None! Of course... instead, they sort of just fade away and do something else and/or reapply for residency, etc.

Basically, if one is to the point of considering the Caribbean, I would suggest reconsidering one's options before simply applying there. It may be the right option for some, but one should definitely think twice, thrice... and do some very serious research on each school before applying.

 

[7starmantis]

 

[causalinference]

No one said your chances aren't lower....please read the full posts. Lower chances doesn't mean no chance.

How about you develop some basic reading comprehension and stop displaying such a pathetic aversion to thought? I made the following statement: "you won't be guaranteed to land a US residency" to which you replied "Misinformation and naïveté"--an interesting reply since my statement was correct. A certain proportion of Caribbean medical school graduates will not be able to acquire a residency in the US. So how my statement fell into the category of "Misinformation and naïveté" is beyond me. Perhaps you can explain why you felt compelled to highlight my statement and write what you did. Or could it be that you lack basic critical thinking and failed to recognize your cognitive blunder when you excreted it into this discussion?

How would you explain someone like me not being accepted DO but being accepted to all Caribbean (top three) schools and then receiving multiple MD acceptances here in the states?

Loaded question. Individual cases depend on a number of factors and are never easy to predict. The point is that on average the gap between an average SGU student and an average DO student is not great enough to warrant attending SGU. In borderline cases there are a lot of activities that a student can engage in to improve his or her chances greatly.

 

[causalinference]

A very illuminating response, indeed.

Perhaps you would care to address some of the valid and insightful points that apumic raised in his post instead of snickering like a little school girl?

 

[7starmantis]

How about you develop some basic reading comprehension and stop displaying such a pathetic aversion to thought? I made the following statement: "you won't be guaranteed to land a US residency" to which you replied "Misinformation and naïveté"--an interesting reply since my statement was correct. A certain proportion of Caribbean medical school graduates will not be able to acquire a residency in the US. So how my statement fell into the category of "Misinformation and naïveté" is beyond me. Perhaps you can explain why you felt compelled to highlight my statement and write what you did. Or could it be that you lack basic critical thinking and failed to recognize your cognitive blunder when you excreted it into this discussion?

No your right, I have no critical thinking skills , basic reading comprehension, I do have a pathetic aversion to thought, and often fail to recognize the many cognitive blunders I "excrete" into discussions. More than that your use of basic medical terminology in the discussion has persuaded me. I wish I could be like you....no, in fact I wish I was you. However more than that I wish I could quit you.

Loaded question. Individual cases depend on a number of factors and are never easy to predict. The point is that on average the gap between an average SGU student and an average DO student is not great enough to warrant attending SGU. In borderline cases there are a lot of activities that a student can engage in to improve his or her chances greatly.

Thats a lot of "averages". So lets see, individual cases are "never easy to predict" and "depend on a number of factors" but sweepingly generalized assumptions are enough to make people avoid Caribbean schools? The truth is every individual is different and in some cases going to a Caribbean school is the chance they need to become a physician. Its a perfectly valid (albeit harder) path to practicing medicine. I would prefer a determined and passionate doctor who worked harder than most to practice than a PA or NP who just gave up on their dream.

A very illuminating response, indeed.

Perhaps you would care to address some of the valid and insightful points that apumic raised in his post instead of snickering like a little school girl?

[sarcasm] Wow, your wit is just so biting. [/sarcasm] I was laughing at the quick 180 he did when his altruism was questioned. I agreed with most of his last post, which is why I found it funny. Maybe we could make you the "snicker sheriff" and I could PM you and ask permission to laugh before posting things like that?

Ok, sarcasm aside, this thread is tiresome.
Bottom line: Do your research and make the decision that is best for you, your future, your family, and your career. For me that was waiting and attending a US school, for many it is attending a Caribbean school. There is nothing wrong with that and it has allowed many impassioned people become physicians over the years and I'm happy to have those individuals in medicine. On a side note, if anyone has questions about one of the top three schools feel free to ask me, I spent countless hours researching and trying to make a decision about them.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I am curious why multiple users would tell the OP to check out valuemd when SDN has a very active Caribbean forum here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=90

I'd suggest the OP discuss his/her concerns with SDN members who are students at Caribbean schools.

 

[icalz]

I am curious why multiple users would tell the OP to check out valuemd when SDN has a very active Caribbean forum here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=90

I'd suggest the OP discuss his/her concerns with SDN members who are students at Caribbean schools.

ValueMD has school specific threads whereas SDN lumps all carib schools into one.

 

[apumic]

[sarcasm] Wow, your wit is just so biting. [/sarcasm] I was laughing at the quick 180 he did when his altruism was questioned. I agreed with most of his last post, which is why I found it funny. Maybe we could make you the "snicker sheriff" and I could PM you and ask permission to laugh before posting things like that?

I'd say we're miscommunicating then. I countered strongly because you put the Caribbean forward as a viable option for the OP as if it were viable for most people. I don't think it is (as the data I quoted showed). I agree it may be the most viable for some people, but I would advise caution for anyone considering it. None of us really changed our viewpoints much throughout this thread...which kind of makes it useless, although hopefully the OP found something s/he could use through all of the debate.

Sorry this was such a debate thread, OP!

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Last I recall seeing, 48% of Caribbean grads who apply for a US residency will gain one. Further, at Ross of the 200 who began as M1s one year, only 80 made it to clinical rotations, which is an attrition rate of 60%!
So you do the math -- 48% of the 40% who get to clinicals will actually end up w/ a US residency and become eligible to practice in the US.
That means only 19% will be eligible to practice in the US!

And the fact of the matter is that that's a generous estimate because not everyone who makes it to 3rd year clinicals will end up graduating. As a result, it's probably a bit less than 19%.

The thing is that this isn't random at all. Carribbean schools tend to have high attrition rates simply because a good proportion of their students couldn't really cut it in the first place. It's not as if they made you a bad student. If we were to take the average medical student in the US and put them there, I'm willing to bet that they're going to pass the USMLE just fine, because they have already been subject to the much higher standards already.

For someone who truly is capable of doing well in medical school but has missed a step of the way (GPA destroyed by a single bad semester caused by personal issues, for example), the Caribbean offers a legitimate second chance when admissions here in the US are not quite as forgiving.

Kind of sucks to be a PA if that's not what you really want in life and being miserable the whole way, the mere presence of the doctors you work with reminding you every day of the dream that you failed to realize. We only live once, and there is only so much the EV of future earnings can tell us.

 

[apumic]

The thing is that this isn't random at all. Carribbean schools tend to have high attrition rates simply because a good proportion of their students couldn't really cut it in the first place. It's not as if they made you a bad student. If we were to take the average medical student in the US and put them there, I'm willing to bet that they're going to pass the USMLE just fine, because they have already been subject to the much higher standards already.

For someone who truly is capable of doing well in medical school but has missed a step of the way (GPA destroyed by a single bad semester caused by personal issues, for example), the Caribbean offers a legitimate second chance when admissions here in the US are not quite as forgiving.

Kind of sucks to be a PA if that's not what you really want in life and being miserable the whole way, the mere presence of the doctors you work with reminding you every day of the dream that you failed to realize. We only live once, and there is only so much the EV of future earnings can tell us.

I understand and agree. The problem is that if someone has no choice but to go the Caribbean route, that very fact may be telling of their inability to overcome the high attrition rate. I'm not saying it can't be done (obviously it can) but you'd better know why you weren't accepted in the U.S. and be certain you're not going to be in the 81% of Caribbean matriculants who thought they were cut out for it but later found out they weren't!

I highly doubt most students going to the Caribbean think they are going to fail out or not get a U.S. residency. Sure, some probably realize there's a possibility but most don't believe it would (or could) ever happen to them. It's human nature. Why do you think we having phenomena like "blaming the victim"? Sure, 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime but every woman thinks it will be the other 3 women in the car, not her. Except in this case, the 1 in 5 is actually a good thing and it's the other 4 who get the short end of the stick.

While it's not random, what differentiates the 75th percentile (which gets rejected) from the 85th percentile (that gets accepted)? Probably not much, to be honest. It's likely a lot of the same difficult to pinpoint and multiple complex factors that differentiate the 50th (not accepted) and 60th (accepted) percentiles in US MD acceptances -- except now we're thousands of dollars in debt down the line. That's why I advise the OP to be sure s/he will not be amongst the average to slightly above average Caribbean med students but to be either a US med student or a phenomenal Caribbean med student.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

I understand and agree. The problem is that if someone has no choice but to go the Caribbean route, that very fact may be telling of their inability to overcome the high attrition rate. I'm not saying it can't be done (obviously it can) but you'd better know why you weren't accepted in the U.S. and be certain you're not going to be in the 81% of Caribbean matriculants who thought they were cut out for it but later found out they weren't!

+1

I think the bottom line is that it's a legitimate option for a few, but it is all too common that some people go there because medical schools here in the US think they weren't cut out for it. These people found out that the schools were right, and then have nothing but a ton of debt and wasted years to show for it. OP, do be careful and don't be one of those people.

 

[womp]

Revamp your application, retake the MCAT and shoot for MD first.

DO and Caribbean are both second rate choices. Medical schools are expanding class sizes and the USMLE will become pass/fail (for class of 2014 or 2015). What that means is if you don't go to an MD school, you will be increasingly marginalized during the residency match process.

If you look closely at the match lists of DO and Caribbean schools, you can see that the highly competitive MD residencies and MD university programs are becoming rarer and rarer. The 2009 match list was particularly pronounced. At least the DO's have an opportunity to shoot for DO-only residencies. Unfortunately DO schools are expanding like bunny populations, but their residency spots are still unchanged.

 

[futureboy]

I am curious why multiple users would tell the OP to check out valuemd when SDN has a very active Caribbean forum here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=90

I'd suggest the OP discuss his/her concerns with SDN members who are students at Caribbean schools.

The SDN carib thread and valuemd are both good resources.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

... and the USMLE will become pass/fail (for class of 2014 or 2015).

I didn't know that. Please share the source of your information?

 

[7starmantis]

I'd say we're miscommunicating then. I countered strongly because you put the Caribbean forward as a viable option for the OP as if it were viable for most people. I don't think it is (as the data I quoted showed). I agree it may be the most viable for some people, but I would advise caution for anyone considering it. None of us really changed our viewpoints much throughout this thread...which kind of makes it useless, although hopefully the OP found something s/he could use through all of the debate.

Sorry this was such a debate thread, OP!

👍

DO and Caribbean are both second rate choices. Medical schools are expanding class sizes and the USMLE will become pass/fail (for class of 2014 or 2015). What that means is if you don't go to an MD school, you will be increasingly marginalized during the residency match process.

Sorry, can't agree with this either. 👎

Would be interested in sources for the USMLE changes though.

 

[futureboy]

I'm not saying it can't be done (obviously it can) but you'd better know why you weren't accepted in the U.S. and be certain you're not going to be in the 81% of Caribbean matriculants who thought they were cut out for it but later found out they weren't!

I agree that the Caribbean path is much more risky than US MD/DO. However, I disagree with your assertion that 81% of Caribbean medical students do not obtain a residency. The 48% match number you quote is artificially low because it does not account for prematches (where the student and the program agree to a residency contract outside the match). Also, you make general conclusions about all Caribbean schools based on statistics from one entering class at one school. Ross is known as a bit of a weed out school with entering classes larger than their available clinical rotation spots. I suspect the statistics are better at AUC, St. George's, and Saba. Additionally, even that one statistic doesn't tell the whole story--some students may have transferred to other Caribbean schools, graduated from them, and eventually obtained their license.

Again, the Caribbean school success rate is not nearly as high as the US MD/DO success rate, but is is not nearly as dismal as 19%.

 

[icalz]

The thing is that this isn't random at all. Carribbean schools tend to have high attrition rates simply because a good proportion of their students couldn't really cut it in the first place. It's not as if they made you a bad student. If we were to take the average medical student in the US and put them there, I'm willing to bet that they're going to pass the USMLE just fine, because they have already been subject to the much higher standards already.

For someone who truly is capable of doing well in medical school but has missed a step of the way (GPA destroyed by a single bad semester caused by personal issues, for example), the Caribbean offers a legitimate second chance when admissions here in the US are not quite as forgiving.

Kind of sucks to be a PA if that's not what you really want in life and being miserable the whole way, the mere presence of the doctors you work with reminding you every day of the dream that you failed to realize. We only live once, and there is only so much the EV of future earnings can tell us.

Strongly agree 👍

 

[icalz]

Bottom line: if you are good at self-study (can teach yourself), score well on step 1, and secure quality lor's during your rotations then you increase your chance of gaining a residency up to 99% (only death, taxes, and student loans is 100%). If I end up doing the carib thing I won't lose a night of sleep...well, except maybe due to exams 😉

 

[halekulani]

carrib attrition rates are more due to the fact that they accept really low quality applicants, not because they aren't able to prepare you for your board exams.

 

[Winged Scapula]

ValueMD has school specific threads whereas SDN lumps all carib schools into one.

The Search Function works pretty well, but if this is a real issue, please let us know in the Site Suggestions forum.

 

[b-real]

I didn't know that. Please share the source of your information?

The USMLE is currently reviewing the entire structure of exam. http://usmle.org/General_Information/review.html

It is widely expected that Steps 1 and 2 will be combined into a giant exam taken in the 4th year. It is further expected that the exam will go Pass/Fail.

 

[swamprat]

The USMLE is currently reviewing the entire structure of exam. http://usmle.org/General_Information/review.html

It is widely expected that Steps 1 and 2 will be combined into a giant exam taken in the 4th year. It is further expected that the exam will go Pass/Fail.

I really hope they don't combine them into one large exam.. the P/F I guess idc... i just don't get how they are going to be able to differentiate the better med students from the not as good ones considering classes are also honors/p/f or something of the sort.

 

[zinki949]

i'm running a off topic, but...

...when i get residency, i would be more embarrassed if the school i graduated from loses Accreditation...

...so in the long run, try to avoid schools outside the US and Canada...

 

[skeptic29]

Basically Caribbean MD schools = crap. I know this has already been said more than a million times but I just wanted to reiterate. Horrible prospects for residency, problems with accreditation, and poor clinical training have all been discussed on this thread or some other. These schools are just interested in making money. Their standards are the lowest I've ever seen. They'll admit a donkey if it can pay their tuition. If you want to be a physician, then get your education at a good US MD school and work towards a decent residency. It may take a little longer, and obviously require a lot more hard work and diligence but it is the right thing to do. Preparing to apply to a US MD school will also give you the opportunity to learn more (both academically and philosophically speaking) which will eventually help make you a better, more competent physician.

As far as DO schools are concerned, I'm not really a fan. I think MD should be the only way to go. Many people will disagree with me, and that's fine. I just don't understand what the deal with osteopathic medicine is. I've shadowed a couple of osteopathic doctors and when I asked them how their approach to medical practice differs from that of allopathic doctors, they basically said there is no difference at all. The whole thing with osteopathic medicine being "a holistic, more personalized" way of looking at medicine is basically rubbish. Osteopathic doctors don't seem to apply this philosophy in their practice. So basically osteopathic medical schools are just another way for people to somehow get a medical degree. We all know how many people are desperate to get one even though they're not yet ready for it.

 

[UBCvan]

carrib attrition rates are more due to the fact that they accept really low quality applicants, not because they aren't able to prepare you for your board exams.

true.