Need Ownership

[Birdstrike]

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There's another low risk way to build your net worth that takes nothing more than patiences, discipline and time. Pay off your house while maxing out your 401K with low cost index or target retirement funds. It doesn't take too many years of that before you've got $500K in home equity and $500K in your 401k for a net worth of $1 million. While that's not enough for most physicians to retire om, it puts you on a very good path, if you start early enough. It requires no new skills, careers to learn, get-rich-quick schemes or businesses to run.

 

[Fox800]

Losing my EM clinical currency is one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I mean, that's fine, but you have another ACMGE-accredited training program to back it up. Most of us aren't in that situation if things go south with non-clinical work.

 

[Fox800]

Get into securities trading/stock investing. Futures, stocks, crypto, bonds whatever you want. Just learn it well.

Eventually, getting +62K gain in a single day isn’t so exciting anymore.

I’ve hit 2 mil net worth and looking to exit medicine to switch maybe into tech. That being said i’m not EM and I do find my nocturnist hospital gig pretty chill, just boring at this point

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[Fox800]

Family income of 500k-ish over last 2 academic years, 450k was mine, 50k was my wife's as a resident. Paid $150k of loans during those 2 years. The rest went to savings after taxes and expenses.

The success really has been through earnings and investing mostly.

Massive investments into the market after the March crash helped significantly. A lot of tax benefits through being s corp have helped lower tax bill, especially with my solo 401k contribution of 57k and the 199a deduction.

350k of my net worth is in options now. I used to Target 12-15k/month in profits monthly. I had 1 rough month where i lost 24k, mostly because i folded my positions instead of holding in perpetuity, now i play even more conservatively - aim is to get 6-7k/month (roughly 1.5-2% of what's in the account). Because of the loss of 24k of my profits, I basically have the same return as sp500 right now - about 45 percent since November 2020 when i started options. It's a strategy I'm sticking with.

Plan is to diversify 30-35 percent into physical real estate. Illiquid assets that do not correlate with the markets. All of that will be in private real estate syndications essentially. Doing it all through crowdstreet for now.

I plan on being at 1M net worth in 1-1.5 years, so 33 age. Shouldn't be hard with 600k in family income starting November, though my wife and i are taking a 2 month hiatus from working after August and just traveling.

Your NW ncrease in that timeframe is jaw-dropping. To be fair, I'm a single household, no one is helping me with living expenses, and I have about double the student loan debt that you do. I live in a HCOL area (think Hawaii).

It sounds like you are dumping about $10k a month into the stock market (on top of your retirement accounts), which is impressive, and beyond what some of us can do if we are single in a HCOL area with decent amount of student loan debt. It sounds like this is giving your brokerage account a huge amount of margin and allowing you to make decent money off of options.

It sounds like (rough back of the napkin math) you need to have at least $50,000 worth of margin (or $100,000 worth of securities in your account) if the options you sell go ITM...however unlikely that is.

Still, if you offered physician financial counseling, I'd do it.

 

[Birdstrike]

I mean, that's fine, but you have another ACMGE-accredited training program to back it up. Most of us aren't in that situation if things go south with non-clinical work.

You're right. I wanted the fall back option available the first year or two, also. It shouldn't take more than a year to know whether your new path is going to work out. Hell, I knew within first few days. But after a year or two, I think most people are likely to have a good idea if their new path is sustainable or not. After that, trying to be an expert in two specialties gets increasingly hard.

It's a rare person that finds a way out of EM, leaves, and then comes back to it.

 

[Groove]

Man, you guys need to hang up medicine and let us mere investing mortals hire you as financial advisors. I’m incredibly jealous.

 

[Fox800]

It's possible to do what this person did. Should actually be the norm for doctors, but it isn't. I'm 3 years behind this person, exactly 2 years out, and have a net worth of 620k and debt free. If the market is as generous as it has been over the last 5 years, i expect to be between 1.5-2M in worth in 3 more years. This should be the norm for doctors if they have any financial sense and understanding.

Can you break down...of the 620k NW (plus however much debt you paid off), how much is from debt pay down, how much is from investing (cash basis), and how much is from market returns/options?

 

[Fox800]

Man, you guys need to hang up medicine and let us mere investing mortals hire you as financial advisors. I’m incredibly jealous.

Me too. I'm a single FT attending and I'm doing this all wrong, apparently.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Your NW ncrease in that timeframe is jaw-dropping. To be fair, I'm a single household, no one is helping me with living expenses, and I have about double the student loan debt that you do. I live in a HCOL area (think Hawaii).

It sounds like you are dumping about $10k a month into the stock market (on top of your retirement accounts), which is impressive, and beyond what some of us can do if we are single in a HCOL area with decent amount of student loan debt. It sounds like this is giving your brokerage account a huge amount of margin and allowing you to make decent money off of options.

It sounds like (rough back of the napkin math) you need to have at least $50,000 worth of margin (or $100,000 worth of securities in your account) if the options you sell go ITM...however unlikely that is.

Still, if you offered physician financial counseling, I'd do it.

In total I'm putting in 25k into some form of investing every month. Less and less into retirement accounts in 2021. In fact, 0 dollars into my solo 401k this year so far as I've moved away from index investing. Maybe I'll max the employer side, still thinking about it. Tax deferral is just that, deferral. I'm becoming more and more certain that i will be in a very high tax bracket at the time of retirement. Plus, i really don't like the restriction of not being able to touch my money for 30+ years. This year, almost everything has gone into my options account. And im curious to see if i can beat the market.

I actually have far far far more margin than your back of the napkin math. I do naked strangles (simultaneously sell naked calls and naked puts) on RUT mostly now. Currently have 12 puts and 12 calls sold for $1900 and $2660 respectively. Very safe bets actually with a probability of success around 99% or so. The return was $7000 in a 43 day time span, but most of the profit is achieved in the first 2-3 weeks usually. If that position was done using cash without margin, it would have required over 2 million dollars. With naked positions, i just have to bring in 10% of the cash. Its simple rules i follow:

1) take profit at 50% to close the trade.
2) take loss at 3 x original premium to close the trade.

A once in a decade crash is when I'll lose money. And most likely because of the call and put downside protection, I'll probably lose less than down right owning the under lying or maybe sightly more. Depends... Time will tell.

 

[Fox800]

In total I'm putting in 25k into some form of investing every month. Less and less into retirement accounts in 2021. In fact, 0 dollars into my solo 401k this year so far as I've moved away from index investing. Maybe I'll max the employer side, still thinking about it. Tax deferral is just that, deferral. I'm becoming more and more certain that i will be in a very high tax bracket at the time of retirement. Plus, i really don't like the restriction of not being able to touch my money for 30+ years. This year, almost everything has gone into my options account. And im curious to see if i can beat the market.

I actually have far far far more margin than your back of the napkin math. I do naked strangles (simultaneously sell naked calls and naked puts) on RUT mostly now. Currently have 12 puts and 12 calls sold for $1900 and $2660 respectively. Very safe bets actually with a probability of success around 99% or so. The return was $7000 in a 43 day time span, but most of the profit is achieved in the first 2-3 weeks usually. If that position was done using cash without margin, it would have required over 2 million dollars. With naked positions, i just have to bring in 10% of the cash. Its simple rules i follow:

1) take profit at 50% to close the trade.
2) take loss at 3 x original premium to close the trade.

A once in a decade crash is when I'll lose money. And most likely because of the call and put downside protection, I'll probably lose less than down right owning the under lying or maybe sightly more. Depends... Time will tell.

Right, I realize the amount in your account (and your margin) is way higher, I had been reading your earlier posts and been trying to do rough math to do what you do and be profitable. It seemed to me that you needed about $50k of margin to get started and kind of emulate what you do. You have much more than that now.

If I'm wrong about the starting amounts needed to make some decent money, let me know.

I'm still trying to split my time between learning about options and learning to day trade.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Can you break down...of the 620k NW (plus however much debt you paid off), how much is from debt pay down, how much is from investing (cash basis), and how much is from market returns/options?

Here's rough numbers:

Graduated residency 2019 June. Remaining debt at the time was $150k and 2 car loans equaling maybe 15-20k between the two.

Cash and investments at the time was roughly 60-80k.

So roughly negative 100k net worth exactly 2 years ago from today, since it's July 1st today lol.

From August 2019 through feb 2020, i ONLY paid off debt. I was debt free in feb 2020. Roughly 20-25k per month went towards debt.

From March 2020 I've invested 25k/month roughly.

To date i have $405,000 in taxable accounts which includes my private real estate investments.

Then i have 155k in tax advantaged accounts.

The remaining is cash and some minimal home equity on the house we're building since i put some money down to get the construction started.

Most of the money has been through my job, maybe 70k-80k is capital gains in these 2 years. Most of these capital gains are realized except for tax advantaged accounts.

 

[Fox800]

Here's rough numbers:

Graduated residency 2019 June. Remaining debt at the time was $150k and 2 car loans equaling maybe 15-20k between the two.

Cash and investments at the time was roughly 60-80k.

So roughly negative 100k net worth exactly 2 years ago from today, since it's July 1st today lol.

From August 2019 through feb 2020, i ONLY paid off debt. I was debt free in feb 2020. Roughly 20-25k per month went towards debt.

From March 2020 I've invested 25k/month roughly.

To date i have $405,000 in taxable accounts which includes my private real estate investments.

Then i have 155k in tax advantaged accounts.

The remaining is cash and some minimal home equity on the house we're building since i put some money down to get the construction started.

Most of the money has been through my job, maybe 70k-80k is capital gains in these 2 years. Most of these capital gains are realized except for tax advantaged accounts.

Interesting. You must have some extra retirement account on top of the typical 57k 401k + 3550 HSA + 6000 back-door Roth...perhaps a 529 plan or a 403b/457?

I've been putting about $18,000/month into NW increase (loans + 401k + HSA + back-door Roth + emergency fund). Obviously, I need to step it up...

 

[cyanide12345678]

Interesting. You must have some extra retirement account on top of the typical 57k 401k + 3550 HSA + 6000 back-door Roth...perhaps a 529 plan or a 403b/457?

I've been putting about $18,000/month into NW increase (loans + 401k + HSA + back-door Roth + emergency fund). Obviously, I need to step it up...

My wife's retirement account has 30k from residency she gets a great match. My residency 403b has 30k - too lazy to rollover. Backdoor roths have 15k and solo 401k has 78k. Then my daughter has some small amount in a 529. My accounts are all linked to emoney which makes it easy to follow.

18k/mo is impressive. Remember, I'm in a low cost of living, am a nocturnist, and have a spouse that makes 56k, which almost covers most of our expenses. So i have a couple of inherent advantages.

 

[Rad2013]

There really needs to be a dedicated forum for the married + large student debt burden + non-working spouse/low income spouse/spouse in school + kids + HCOL folks. That is my combo and it is murderous to FI. I know I’m not the only one out there.

 

[bravotwozero]

There really needs to be a dedicated forum for the married + large student debt burden + non-working spouse/low income spouse/spouse in school + kids + HCOL folks. That is my combo and it is murderous to FI. I know I’m not the only one out there.

White coat investor?

 

[Birdstrike]

On the subject of ownership: Hell yes, it helps to be owner or part-owner of something. Who do you think feels more pain related to their involvement with an ED, the people working in it, or the people who own it?

Although I only own 4% (and growing) of my current 50-provider, 140 employee group, it's more than I owned of any ED or hospital I ever worked in. You bet your butt I can feel the difference.

 

[BoardingDoc]

There really needs to be a dedicated forum for the married + large student debt burden + non-working spouse/low income spouse/spouse in school + kids + HCOL folks. That is my combo and it is murderous to FI. I know I’m not the only one out there.

I'm nearly in your camp. Wife and I both have large amounts of student loan debt. Live in a very high COL area. Kids also = expensive. I'm definitely nowhere near FI.
The difference compared to your version is that my wife works and that helps quite a bit. She doesn't make MD money, but she isn't too far off.
Loans all refinanced at dirt cheap rates.
Mortgage is 3%.
We save / repay loans (not counting mortgage payment or college fund) ~ 15k/mo.

 

[Rad2013]

What is considered dirt cheap for student loan refi? I’ve been debating what my target should be. Mortgage is also at 3% for me.

 

[GeneralVeers]

What is considered dirt cheap for student loan refi? I’ve been debating what my target should be. Mortgage is also at 3% for me.

Your best strategy might be to re-finance your home. I just did that at 2.5% in a 7/1 ARM. Take the extra equity and pay down your high-interest loans. The best part is that mortgage interest is tax deductible.

 

[BoardingDoc]

What is considered dirt cheap for student loan refi? I’ve been debating what my target should be. Mortgage is also at 3% for me.

I'm at 2.65% 15yr fixed. Refinanced a couple yrs ago.

 

[BoardingDoc]

The best part is that mortgage interest is tax deductible.

This is only useful if you itemize your deductions. If you're a 1099 employee, I suspect you certainly do. I'm W2 and took the standard deduction last year.

 

[Rad2013]

Did the home refi recently and 3% was the lowest I could get at the time (for a 30 year, at least… didn’t look into 15).

I can get the student loans well below 2% if I’m aggressive but hoping to figure out what a good happy medium is. I’m at 3.55% currently.

 

[bravotwozero]

This is only useful if you itemize your deductions. If you're a 1099 employee, I suspect you certainly do.

Agreed. But if you pay mortgage interest and property taxes, and make significant charitable contributions to 401 c(3) charities, itemizing will very easily get you over and above the standard deduction.

 

[dchristismi]

Didn't someone mention buying a laundromat awhile back as a surprisingly high yield investment?

Anyway, I also gained a lot when I left my EM clinical skillz behind.
I had to go look up the HEART score not too long ago, and I realized that while I was beyond rusty, and I realized I was also pretty darn happy.

 

[cyanide12345678]

There really needs to be a dedicated forum for the married + large student debt burden + non-working spouse/low income spouse/spouse in school + kids + HCOL folks. That is my combo and it is murderous to FI. I know I’m not the only one out there.

The bigger pockets money podcast had a recent episode with a couple achieving financial independence by age 50 despite living in Washington DC area, one income and non working spouse, having 14 children, and roughly about 100k in family income. It was an impressive episode.

 

[Apollyon]

14 kids!! Did someone tell the wife that it is a uterus, not a clown car?

 

[namethatsmell]

To the OP, congrats on getting to where you're at!

Can totally relate to feeling you have zero control in the ED and wanting--needing--something that you do have more control over.

As others have basically been saying, your savings represents fantastic FU money. Not just for any random EM job, but for the whole field or medicine in general if you choose.

But a question from a boring dude: with your $1.75 mil invested, do you need to take any major financial risks? Absolutely create something if you want to, but recognize that most businesses fail. Think closely about limiting your exposure on any new venture. The last thing you need is to incur significant, unexpected business debt. As mentioned above, this is an advantage of real estate syndication vs traditional ownership of rental properties. If you decide to go the traditional ownership route, you may want to consider spending your time liberally, and your money conservatively, on any new venture you get into.

 

[emergentmd]

OP, I will say you were way ahead of me at your age and wish I started that early. You have to define what your goal is. If it is just to own something to have control, its easy. If it is to own something that will produce the same EM income you have right now that is difficult and will require either lots of Luck/Money.

If you want to cash flow $5k/mo, then just work 3 yrs, save $1M and put it in a high dividend portfolio. Buy Rental income, VRBO stuff and you can cash flow 5k/mo easily. If you want to never work another day and replace your EM income, it will take some work.

I am invested in FSEDs and also 2 VRBOs STRs and 5 LTR properties. I hope to double this in the next 5 yrs but everything around me is sooooo expensive. I have regrets not having 5 VRBOs right now when it was affordable 2-3 yrs ago.

Some of you docs must not have kids to save that much money just working EM. Kids are SO expensive.

I am taking close to a month vacation right now and I would guess that this trip will cost 20K. When my only income was EM work, a 20K trip and not working would have put a nice dent in my bank account. But looking at my bank account since starting our trip 2 wks ago, my FSER profit deposits easily covered the trip costs and my 2 VRBOs deposits was 25K. It feels liberating knowing that financially I am not dependent on doing EM work anymore.

 

[emergentmd]

There really needs to be a dedicated forum for the married + large student debt burden + non-working spouse/low income spouse/spouse in school + kids + HCOL folks. That is my combo and it is murderous to FI. I know I’m not the only one out there.

I have no clue how old you were but I was in essentially the same shoes early on in my career. Married, stay at home wife, 3 kids in Private school since PreK, HCOL, Big mortgage. Only had 100K in student loans so that was a blessing.

If your only income is EM, then you need to figure out how to save 100K/yr. Save 100K/yr for 10 yrs and you should be able to have a bunch of rental properties that should produce 100K/yr in income.

 

[wamcp]

Some of you docs must not have kids to save that much money just working EM. Kids are SO expensive.

I am taking close to a month vacation right now and I would guess that this trip will cost 20K. When my only income was EM work, a 20K trip and not working would have put a nice dent in my bank account. But looking at my bank account since starting our trip 2 wks ago, my FSER profit deposits easily covered the trip costs and my 2 VRBOs deposits was 25K. It feels liberating knowing that financially I am not dependent on doing EM work anymore.

+1 on the kids thing. I had done a 6 yr BS/MD program so I was out making hospitalist money at age 27. Changed jobs after the first year and moonlit like crazy. Wife only finished fellowship last year. Paid off 340k in our student debt plus invested/built up some capital for market trading, then handsomely profited from shorting the market when covid hit and going long after stocks hit bottom. Now am 31, have two kids under age 2, and pretty much it’s unfathomable to work extra shifts like I had done only a year ago as I want time with kids. If I had done a traditional 8 yr college/med school then no way would I have 2 million net worth by age 31.

 

[emergentmd]

I’d argue kids take time more than they do money. Time well spent. Teach a kid to fish instead of giving him or her fish. Otherwise shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.

I completely agree time is much more important and thus get your financials in order so you can spend time with the kids. I know too many docs who work like Crazy, save little, then when Kids come need to continue to work like Crazy.

Having 3 Kids under 12, we could easily just take low costs trips but why do I need to suffer? We are taking alot of tours this trip and our options was either to figure out how to get around ourselves vs joining a group tour vs having a private tour. Free vs $$ vs 3x$$. Took a NYC tour and hired a private tour guide for 6 hrs to drive us around to see the City. Best $$$$ spent. We could have figured it out taking the subway with 3 young kids which would have been miserable. Could have taken a group tour but have no control over where we want to go plus most people now a days are not respectful/have poorly taught kids.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I completely agree time is much more important and thus get your financials in order so you can spend time with the kids. I know too many docs who work like Crazy, save little, then when Kids come need to continue to work like Crazy.

Having 3 Kids under 12, we could easily just take low costs trips but why do I need to suffer? We are taking alot of tours this trip and our options was either to figure out how to get around ourselves vs joining a group tour vs having a private tour. Free vs $$ vs 3x$$. Took a NYC tour and hired a private tour guide for 6 hrs to drive us around to see the City. Best $$$$ spent. We could have figured it out taking the subway with 3 young kids which would have been miserable. Could have taken a group tour but have no control over where we want to go plus most people now a days are not respectful/have poorly taught kids.

I second the private tour thing on vacations. We make enough money that we need not travel like middle class tourists. My last non-private tour was a "small group" tour in Melbourne. The "small group" was a mini-bus that they proceeded to fill up with 24 people including several screaming lap children. After they picked up the last group of noisy brats, we asked the driver to pull over and let us out in the middle of downtown. Fortunately we were able to get a refund. Since then, booking a private driver is all we will do. It can cost $1000/day in Europe, but worth it to be chauffeured around in an S-class and see the site at your leisure.

 

[emergentmd]

I second the private tour thing on vacations. We make enough money that we need not travel like middle class tourists. My last non-private tour was a "small group" tour in Melbourne. The "small group" was a mini-bus that they proceeded to fill up with 24 people including several screaming lap children. After they picked up the last group of noisy brats, we asked the driver to pull over and let us out in the middle of downtown. Fortunately we were able to get a refund. Since then, booking a private driver is all we will do. It can cost $1000/day in Europe, but worth it to be chauffeured around in an S-class and see the site at your leisure.

We have 3 kids under 13 and doing anything in a big group is a PIA. When I schedule a private tour, we can be alittle late if we want, stop anytime to eat, pick where we want to go.

NYC in 6 hrs, We were dropped right in front of St Patrick's, Grand Central, Rockefellers, 9/11 memorial, Hudson Harbor then picked up when we were done. Dropped right in front of the empire for pictures. Dropped off right in front of the restaurant of our choice, picked up, dropped off/picked up in front of an ice cream store for dessert. Picked up and dropped off right in front of our hotel. Private tours also gives me a guide who is knowledgeable and can answer questions vs a group tour where 2/3 of the group can't even hear.

Taking the subway around would have meant wasting 3 hrs using the subway system, getting lost, and then walking to where we want.

Uber would have cost probably $400 plus waste 2 hrs.

A group tour would mean a rigid schedule and stopping at places I have no interest in going to. I have realized during our trip that most kids in general are poorly taught. It is way too much to ask kids to be respectful when the parents are just as bad.

I do not think I will ever want to do a group tour again. The bad part is I don't think my kids will ever want to do a group tour either.

 

[GeneralVeers]

We have 3 kids under 13 and doing anything in a big group is a PIA. When I schedule a private tour, we can be alittle late if we want, stop anytime to eat, pick where we want to go.

NYC in 6 hrs, We were dropped right in front of St Patrick's, Grand Central, Rockefellers, 9/11 memorial, Hudson Harbor then picked up when we were done. Dropped right in front of the empire for pictures. Dropped off right in front of the restaurant of our choice, picked up, dropped off/picked up in front of an ice cream store for dessert. Picked up and dropped off right in front of our hotel. Private tours also gives me a guide who is knowledgeable and can answer questions vs a group tour where 2/3 of the group can't even hear.

Taking the subway around would have meant wasting 3 hrs using the subway system, getting lost, and then walking to where we want.

Uber would have cost probably $400 plus waste 2 hrs.

A group tour would mean a rigid schedule and stopping at places I have no interest in going to. I have realized during our trip that most kids in general are poorly taught. It is way too much to ask kids to be respectful when the parents are just as bad.

I do not think I will ever want to do a group tour again. The bad part is I don't think my kids will ever want to do a group tour either.

NYC subway is a no-go for me. Again, I'm too well-off to take a smelly, dirty subway full of homeless people and gang members. Now public transit in Japan, Singapore, and Dubai I'll gladly take.

The worst part of group tours is the gift shops and "local artisans" they always take you too. I never have any interest in shopping while on vacation, and the tour companies are paid by these trinket-dealers to bring their customers through there. Nothing more painful then waiting for a few boomer couples to finish shopping for crap so you can get on with the tour. My time is valuable, and definitely worth it to skip these.

 

[namethatsmell]

Almost never do tours, private or otherwise, when traveling anywhere relatively safe and accessible. Having some time to wander/drive around and get a bit lost in a new place is too interesting and fun.

 

[BoardingDoc]

NYC subway is a no-go for me. Again, I'm too well-off to take a smelly, dirty subway full of homeless people and gang members. Now public transit in Japan, Singapore, and Dubai I'll gladly take.

I don't think I ever imagined I'd be defending the NYC subway system, however, the description of it being "full of homeless people and gang members" makes me question whether you've actually ridden on the MTA.

 

[Porfirio]

I don't think I ever imagined I'd be defending the NYC subway system, however, the description of it being "full of homeless people and gang members" makes me question whether you've actually ridden on the MTA.

Just don’t ride in the last section.

 

[Birdstrike]

I don't think I ever imagined I'd be defending the NYC subway system, however, the description of it being "full of homeless people and gang members" makes me question whether you've actually ridden on the MTA.

Most of the time the train in Manhattan is alright, during busy times. But let's not try to put lipstick on a pig.

One time, I was on the platform waiting for the 2-train at about 5:00 am with a bunch of rough looking guys headed to work. I was still a NYC newbie, at the time. I looked to my right, and a lady in sweatpants pulled her pants down, squatted down and pooped in plain view of everyone on that platform and carried on, like it was no thing. I couldn't believe I was the only one that turned and looked, when clearly everyone knew what went down.

That was the day I turned from a newbie, into a local. After that I never bothered to turn my head again, or be surprised, when some crazy New York **** went down around me. No eye contact, eyes to the floor, blinders on. Got stuff to do. Just keep moving.

All New Yorkers have a love hate relationship with the train. It's great and terrible, all at the same time.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Last went on it in 2013. It was gross. I can't imagine it's any better now with the significant decay in public safety and rule-of-law.

A travesty that the "Greatest" American city would have a third world subway. Even DC and Boston have passable train systems.

 

[RustedFox]

Last went on it in 2013. It was gross. I can't imagine it's any better now with the significant decay in public safety and rule-of-law.

A travesty that the "Greatest" American city would have a third world subway. Even DC and Boston have passable train systems.

Yeah, when I hear "greatest American city", NYC is not what jumps to mind.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Yeah, when I hear "greatest American city", NYC is not what jumps to mind.

I stayed at the Park Hyatt which is in the "Billionaire's Building" just off of Central Park. It's amazing to me that you can have apartments costing $20-$100 million, but then have to step over bums and trash lining the street in front of the building. Unfortunately I think the decay, which has already destroyed SF, Portland, and LA will make it's way down to other large and mid-sized cities as well.

 

[hundreddaysoff]

Your NW ncrease in that timeframe is jaw-dropping. To be fair, I'm a single household, no one is helping me with living expenses, and I have about double the student loan debt that you do. I live in a HCOL area (think Hawaii).

It sounds like you are dumping about $10k a month into the stock market (on top of your retirement accounts), which is impressive, and beyond what some of us can do if we are single in a HCOL area with decent amount of student loan debt. It sounds like this is giving your brokerage account a huge amount of margin and allowing you to make decent money off of options.

It sounds like (rough back of the napkin math) you need to have at least $50,000 worth of margin (or $100,000 worth of securities in your account) if the options you sell go ITM...however unlikely that is.

Still, if you offered physician financial counseling, I'd do it.

I have a similar net worth to Cyanide. The main difference is that $500k of it is in my house free and clear because, in a nutshell, (1) I don't trust the banks and their shell games and (2) I think inflation is a distinct threat over the next few years and I'm skeptical that stonks alone will protect us (read John T Reed's book for much more analysis on this point).

Cyanide and I finished residency the same year and we both made ~400--500k out of the gate. In addition to maxing out my 401(k), I also set up a CBP and crammed $100k into it the first year out of residency. That's $30k I save in income taxes, at the cost of several $thousand to be annoyed by an actuary for a while.

I also had no debt, ever, but this cost me 8 years of my life, and but I'd do it again because it wasn't really about money at the time. No silver spoon or anything.

So TL;DR there's no magic here. Just do what WCI says.

And but understand that the old WCI/Bogleheads-based ways of doing things may not be as effective over the next decade both because (1) ER hourly rates are falling and also (2) because of a bunch more kinda-related political ranty stuff you can read all about on epsilontheory.com . (Start with his Long Now Parts 3 or 4; you only get 2 free reads per month unfortunately. I have no financial relationship with those hedgies other than I'm a paid subscriber and I'm considering shelling out $3k/y for use of their magic narrative machine, although I probably won't.)

 

[GeneralVeers]

I have a similar net worth to Cyanide. The main difference is that $500k of it is in my house free and clear because, in a nutshell, (1) I don't trust the banks and their shell games and (2) I think inflation is a distinct threat over the next few years and I'm skeptical that stonks alone will protect us (read John T Reed's book for much more analysis on this point).

I agree with your thoughts on inflation. My suggestion would be to take that $500K equity out of your home as a mortgage, not a line-of-credit so that it's tax deductible. Then put it in an investment account where you can easily make 5% on it. Should inflation zip up to 8-10% which is highly probably, you will make out extremely well.

 

[hundreddaysoff]

I agree with your thoughts on inflation. My suggestion would be to take that $500K equity out of your home as a mortgage, not a line-of-credit so that it's tax deductible. Then put it in an investment account where you can easily make 5% on it. Should inflation zip up to 8-10% which is highly probably, you will make out extremely well.

Nah. As WCI says, my crystal ball is cloudy. Extreme deflation/confiscation/ruin is also possible over the next few years, as is irreplaceable loss of my job.

My main strategy right now to protect myself in event of either is, to paraphrase Reed: "own [or have reliable access to] everything you will ever need, today".

 

[GeneralVeers]

Nah. As WCI says, my crystal ball is cloudy. Extreme deflation/confiscation/ruin is also possible over the next few years, as is irreplaceable loss of my job.

My main strategy right now to protect myself in event of either is, to paraphrase Reed: "own [or have reliable access to] everything you will ever need, today".

Get some guns, and MREs. You will be set.

 

[hundreddaysoff]

Get some guns, and MREs. You will be set.

Yes, this is a very small part of my strategy. And I realize you may be kidding to an extent. But many are not kidding.

Can I believe in this Survivalist! (TM) mindset? Absolutely. But I am by nature a pretty trusting and optimistic dude. And I fear that becoming a Survivalist! would alienate me to my neighbors, put my focus in the wrong place, and ultimately make me more likely to be looted or whatever in the very unlikely chance that SHTF in the near future.

So the abyss stares into me, etc.

Full argument in Hemenway's essay "Flowing toward abundance" for anyone interested:

Flowing Toward Abundance - Toby Hemenway

 

[robellis]

It's possible to do what this person did. Should actually be the norm for doctors, but it isn't. I'm 3 years behind this person, exactly 2 years out, and have a net worth of 620k and debt free. If the market is as generous as it has been over the last 5 years, i expect to be between 1.5-2M in worth in 3 more years. This should be the norm for doctors if they have any financial sense and understanding.

Yeah if they have financial sense and no kids, no fun wife, low cost of living, no expensive hobbies, no social life, and just want to work and watch Netflix..fixed that for you

 

[robellis]

Man, you guys need to hang up medicine and let us mere investing mortals hire you as financial advisors. I’m incredibly jealous.

Everyone is a genius on an anonymous forum for a couple of years, circle back to these same gentleman 20 years from now and you’ll find with virtual certainty that a boring index fund actual outperformed them…they’re doing options trading that’s like gambling on steroids..one of them posted that he had a 15 percent swing in his account in one day..imagine losing 15 percent in one day…it’s just gambling at that point

 

[GeneralVeers]

Everyone is a genius on an anonymous forum for a couple of years, circle back to these same gentleman 20 years from now and you’ll find with virtual certainty that a boring index fund actual outperformed them…they’re doing options trading that’s like gambling on steroids..one of them posted that he had a 15 percent swing in his account in one day..imagine losing 15 percent in one day…it’s just gambling at that point

I tried day trading early on in my career and tried to pick specific stocks. It was a mixed bag, and I won some and lost some. I've given up and for the last 5 years have only done index funds. Buy, hold, buy again when the market dips and never sell. Extremely boring strategy but it's worked as I now have FIRE. Granted it took over 10 years to get there.

 

[sylvanthus]

Yes, this is a very small part of my strategy. And I realize you may be kidding to an extent. But many are not kidding.

Can I believe in this Survivalist! (TM) mindset? Absolutely. But I am by nature a pretty trusting and optimistic dude. And I fear that becoming a Survivalist! would alienate me to my neighbors, put my focus in the wrong place, and ultimately make me more likely to be looted or whatever in the very unlikely chance that SHTF in the near future.

So the abyss stares into me, etc.

Full argument in Hemenway's essay "Flowing toward abundance" for anyone interested:

Flowing Toward Abundance - Toby Hemenway

Glad im not the only one. Given all the BS going on in the world, Ive got solar setup, planning on getting a backup battery soonish, have a years worth of food for 6 of us. Got a greenhouse setup. Planted fruit trees, berry and nut bushes, etc etc.

Im not full on crazy prepper yet, but im getting there.