Need Some Advice

[JROR]

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Hello,

I’m seeking advice on going into Pharmacy School. I’ll give a little run down on where I’m at.

I went to a small private college where I played sports. Due to personal issues I left and took some course at a CC. It was there that I first thought about Pharmacy School (this was about six or seven years ago). My main courses where prerequisites for Pharmacy School, along with other basics. I then took the PCAT (again about six years ago) and did not do well. Back then I studied from Kaplan, which only helped my Bio, as that was my highest score. This, in short, shattered my confidence and I left the idea of Pharmacy School on the table.

I ended up finishing my degree (a liberal arts one with a minor in chemistry) at a four-year college. From there I’ve basically been at various jobs, trying to find a niche and a career. I thought about doing a Pharm Tech position to gain some experience, but I passed on that and took jobs that paid a little more, as I was in need of money. I always liked science, but have yet to actually go into a science related job.

Anyways, I’m sort of at a crossroads on my career and thought I would try Pharmacy again. As you can see, I’ve been out of school for a little while and my last experience with the PCAT wasn’t impressive. But I want to see if I could do well on the PCAT, so I’m planning on taking the test in July. (Advice on this would be appreciative.)

However, I would like to hear some of your thoughts/advice. I’ve read some posts that have even questioned the idea of going into Pharmacy, a legitimate concern. Is it even worth the effort? I mean, Pharmacy School isn’t costless and the idea of going into debt while the reward is subpar is cause for concern. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on the manner, as I’m sort of stuck. Thanks!

 

[oldstock]

Hello,

I’m seeking advice on going into Pharmacy School. I’ll give a little run down on where I’m at.

I went to a small private college where I played sports. Due to personal issues I left and took some course at a CC. It was there that I first thought about Pharmacy School (this was about six or seven years ago). My main courses where prerequisites for Pharmacy School, along with other basics. I then took the PCAT (again about six years ago) and did not do well. Back then I studied from Kaplan, which only helped my Bio, as that was my highest score. This, in short, shattered my confidence and I left the idea of Pharmacy School on the table.

I ended up finishing my degree (a liberal arts one with a minor in chemistry) at a four-year college. From there I’ve basically been at various jobs, trying to find a niche and a career. I thought about doing a Pharm Tech position to gain some experience, but I passed on that and took jobs that paid a little more, as I was in need of money. I always liked science, but have yet to actually go into a science related job.

Anyways, I’m sort of at a crossroads on my career and thought I would try Pharmacy again. As you can see, I’ve been out of school for a little while and my last experience with the PCAT wasn’t impressive. But I want to see if I could do well on the PCAT, so I’m planning on taking the test in July. (Advice on this would be appreciative.)

I have heard that Dr Collins is the best prep material for the PCAT.

However, I would like to hear some of your thoughts/advice. I’ve read some posts that have even questioned the idea of going into Pharmacy, a legitimate concern. Is it even worth the effort? I mean, Pharmacy School isn’t costless and the idea of going into debt while the reward is subpar is cause for concern. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on the manner, as I’m sort of stuck. Thanks!

What do you really like to do ??

have you look at other career choices out there ?? There are more career opps than just pharmacy out there for one to choose.


You need to do some volunteer / shadowing / working in a pharmacy to get some insights of what pharmacy is like first hand.



also, read my post here in reply to similar posts like yours then decide if pharmacy is worth your effort as everyone's situation is different,

there is nothing new about career opps in industry pharmacy. Pharmacists can also work in other areas such as insurance, academia, consulting, etc. But those opps are rare and few.

but let me give you some numbers to help you to see things in perspective :

-there are 140 as of late December 2014, avg 100 - 150 per class = 14,000 - 21,000 per class. I have not checked the official number again since December 2014, but it is probably 142 schools now at the end of January 2015. There are more schools still in the process of opening.

-according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), based on 2013 data, there are only 41,400 jobs btw 2012 - 2022, or avg 5,175 jobs per year for the period of 2012 - 2022 (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm).

-the avg tuition for pharm schools alone these day is about 30K per year or 120K for 4 yrs. If you include living expense (easy 10-15K per year or 40-60K for 4 year, the avg cost of a PharmD degree is 160 - 180K for 4 yrs.


14,000 to 21,000 new grads per year (assuming that NO more new pharm school going to open from now to 2022) MINUS avg 5,000 EQUAL avg 9,000 to 16,000 new PharmD grads would be unemployed per year.

Of course, like always, there will be people who will find work in retail / hospital pharmacy, insurance, consulting, academia, etc. But, what about the other 9 - 16K new pharmacists who would be unemployed per year, who are on the avg owing 160 - 180K in student loans for pharmacy schools alone ??????


The illusion that many new grads can still find jobs now is because the great turnover rate in retail pharmacy, the major pharmacy job provider, thanks to crazy metrics. Many who got jobs are now also being offered only part-time jobs. Also some have to go to residency / fellowship which is absorbing some of new grads.


But Google and ask around to see for yourself if what I am saying here is true.


So unless you are saying here that there is a great and recent increase in the number of opening industry pharmacy jobs for new PharmD grads, there is nothing so hopeful about going in pharmacy at this time.

But do you have any number about those industry pharmacy jobs at all to encourage people to go for pharmacy in general and industry pharmacy / other nontraditional capacities in particular ??

If you do not have any number, this is you encouraging people to take the odd that most of them will be likely unemployed or underemployed w much lower wages than now and owing 160 - 180K in pharmacy school debts thanks to tons of pharmacy schools out there which happily take your money / student loan checks in advance regardless of you getting jobs or not.


It is fine for you to decide to take that chance, that is your prerogative, as you are the best to know if you can or cannot take that chance.


But I want us to be clear about the number. It is called REALITY and a lot different from wishful thinking 🙂











Yup, there are 14,000 - 21,000 new PharmD grads per year. How many jobs are there ??

Look at the real numbers. Do some math. It is very simple. What do the numbers tell you ?? You might not need to listen to anyone 😉





Until pharmacists can really bill for their services, there is not much to say there.

I do not know if the federal government and laws have given pharmacist the "healthcare provider status" yet for all 50 states. If you can provide the link/source to your info here....


But, let's assume that pharmacists got recognized as "healthcare providers" in 50 states, ask yourself those tough questions:

-how many patients or other health professionals or businesses are going to utilize the services you think pharmacists can provide as healthcare providers ??

-how much pharmacists can bill for their services ?? Will the insurance pay ?? how much would they pay ?? Is the reimbursement, in general, worth the effort ??

-how many jobs will the health provider status create for pharmacists ?? And how many schools and PharmDs are there ????? (the rate seems like 1 - 2 schools PER MONTH now).


You will find that you do not have the answers for those questions yet, at least for now. But I can tell you with the current trend to try to lower healthcare cost, there are not much hope for job/pay opps for pharmacist there. Plus I can bet that there will be not enough jobs to go around to feed all those HUNGRY new grads from like 200s schools in 2022 ???? (at the rate of 1 - 2 new schools per month).

When you do not have any concrete number yet, this is called UNCERTAINTY. You want to gamble away with 160 - 180K student loans for pharmacy school and think you have a great odd to make it, more power to you !! GL 🙂

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...the-sky-really-falling.1119549/#post-16156347

 

[JROR]

Thanks for your reply.

What do you really like to do ??

This is the perennial question I've been asking myself. Of course, I'm the only one that can truly know this, my problem seems to be options. What else can one do with a minor in chemistry, do I need to go back to school and secure a masters? Is it worth it?

I've reached out to past professors to seek advice, along with certain family members. I'll see where that leads. Per your recommendation to seek out pharmacists, this is one I agree with because your post does raise concern about the fruitfulness of going into pharmacy. The truth is people were/are attracted to pharmacy because it seemed/seems to be a good paying position. This, of course, can't be the only reason people enter or consider entering, at least not for me, because the job may entail other factors not conducive to a satisfying life/job. But I feel going into massive debt for what, per your post, appears to be a risk has gave me more pause then I imagined.

I would still like to hear more from maybe the brighter side 🙂, no offense. Or what other options can one do?

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[fewaopi]

well PA, nursing are good options, dentistry is as well. medical school while it pays well and is very stable isn't for most people because of the long hours, training, and projected lower reimbursement now with Obamacare though that affects all health fields.

definitely talk to other pharmacists, graduating pharmacists, professors, go to a CVS, Rite-Aid, WAG, ask them how they like their jobs and ask plenty of them to get a good sample size. try to have an honest conversation with them about job prospects and the future.

retail pharmacy is mind-melting. it's really repetitive and you deal with poor customers even at independents but more frequently in chain retail. it's pretty boring in my opinion since i work as one. sometimes you feel good when someone really thanks you and appreciates you and says good things about you for going the extra mile to help them. but for every 100 you go the extra mile, probably 5 will actually thank and show appreciation. the other 95 just expect it and don't really care what you do for them. it depends where you work, rich people are pretty snobby and demanding and anal about a lot of things but don't haggle over copays. poor are nicer, more social, friendly, relaxed but if it's even $0.01 they'll do a 180 and start tearing your store into pieces. maybe it's cause i'm young so my mind was raised on coca cola, fast food, video games, mind stimulating quick activities as opposed to older people who seem find with doing the same thing over and over again for 40 years. you really see its effects it makes you a bit dumber over time and you have to find things on the outside to stimulate your mind.

the only good thing about pharmacy is the many settings you can go into but this is a double edged sword in disguise really. unlike most healthcare professionals who largely practice, pharmacists can go into managed care, industry, hospital, long-term care, home infusion, nuclear, compounding besides retail. mainly because nurses aren't smart enough, and physicians can go into some of these fields but make far too much in practice it's not worth it for them to go into these alternative routes. though i've seen MDs at managed care, industry (where they make bank but lie and rip off people or at the least biased). the reason this isn't always a good thing is because the Pharm.D degree is becoming more a Bachelors degree in healthcare than a degree where you practice solely as a healthcare professional. it's a reason why pharmacist aren't likely to ever get provider status, us pharmacists don't really provide anything that can be billed. the flexibility and alternative options are pluses, the job itself can be more flexible. it's why i feel pharmacy is a better field for women than men. women would enjoy the flexibility to raise kids and men who are more career oriented and preoccupied with work should do something else. of course this is more for a typical man works, women raises kid family structure which is still largely prevalent though not necessarily the case for many people.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

retail pharmacy is mind-melting. it's really repetitive and you deal with poor customers even at independents but more frequently in chain retail. it's pretty boring in my opinion since i work as one. sometimes you feel good when someone really thanks you and appreciates you and says good things about you for going the extra mile to help them. but for every 100 you go the extra mile, probably 5 will actually thank and show appreciation. the other 95 just expect it and don't really care what you do for them. it depends where you work, rich people are pretty snobby and demanding and anal about a lot of things but don't haggle over copays. poor are nicer, more social, friendly, relaxed but if it's even $0.01 they'll do a 180 and start tearing your store into pieces. maybe it's cause i'm young so my mind was raised on coca cola, fast food, video games, mind stimulating quick activities as opposed to older people who seem find with doing the same thing over and over again for 40 years. you really see its effects it makes you a bit dumber over time and you have to find things on the outside to stimulate your mind.

Wonderful post, fewaopi!!! Always love reading your input. Completely agree with you on everything, especially what I quoted above. So true!!

 

[rederza]

it's worth it if you put minimal effort in. Imo i would not if i have a 4 yr degree. I would iff: 1 I went to cc for just 2 years
2. Got all A's in said cc courses
3. Was a tech for about a year

Basically all you need. Pharmacy was touted as a professional degree. Now it is just a little bit more than an advanced technical degree for pharm techs to become glorified pharm tech supervisors.

 

[PharmtoCS]

It's worth it if you meet the criteria @rederza mentioned above and you absolutely cannot or do not want to become a ( n ):

1) Software engineer / computer programmer (currently in extremely high demand, pays $100k+ right out of undergrad with minimal loans, might not even need a college degree)
2) Investment banker, accountant, actuary, or anything else in the finance field
3) Physician
4) Physician assistant
5) Dentist
6) Other engineer
7) Anything requiring no more than a college degree that is currently in demand

 

[oldstock]

it's worth it if you put minimal effort in. Imo i would not if i have a 4 yr degree. I would iff: 1 I went to cc for just 2 years
2. Got all A's in said cc courses
3. Was a tech for about a year

Basically all you need. Pharmacy was touted as a professional degree. Now it is just a little bit more than an advanced technical degree for pharm techs to become glorified pharm tech supervisors.

It's worth it if you meet the criteria @rederza mentioned above and you absolutely cannot or do not want to become a ( n ):

1) Software engineer / computer programmer (currently in extremely high demand, pays $100k+ right out of undergrad with minimal loans)
2) Investment banker, accountant, actuary, or anything else in the finance field
3) Physician
4) Physician assistant
5) Dentist
6) Other engineer
7) Anything requiring no more than college degree that is currently in demand

excellent lists !!

 

[JROR]

well PA, nursing are good options, dentistry is as well. medical school while it pays well and is very stable isn't for most people because of the long hours, training, and projected lower reimbursement now with Obamacare though that affects all health fields.

definitely talk to other pharmacists, graduating pharmacists, professors, go to a CVS, Rite-Aid, WAG, ask them how they like their jobs and ask plenty of them to get a good sample size. try to have an honest conversation with them about job prospects and the future.

retail pharmacy is mind-melting. it's really repetitive and you deal with poor customers even at independents but more frequently in chain retail. it's pretty boring in my opinion since i work as one. sometimes you feel good when someone really thanks you and appreciates you and says good things about you for going the extra mile to help them. but for every 100 you go the extra mile, probably 5 will actually thank and show appreciation. the other 95 just expect it and don't really care what you do for them. it depends where you work, rich people are pretty snobby and demanding and anal about a lot of things but don't haggle over copays. poor are nicer, more social, friendly, relaxed but if it's even $0.01 they'll do a 180 and start tearing your store into pieces. maybe it's cause i'm young so my mind was raised on coca cola, fast food, video games, mind stimulating quick activities as opposed to older people who seem find with doing the same thing over and over again for 40 years. you really see its effects it makes you a bit dumber over time and you have to find things on the outside to stimulate your mind.

the only good thing about pharmacy is the many settings you can go into but this is a double edged sword in disguise really. unlike most healthcare professionals who largely practice, pharmacists can go into managed care, industry, hospital, long-term care, home infusion, nuclear, compounding besides retail. mainly because nurses aren't smart enough, and physicians can go into some of these fields but make far too much in practice it's not worth it for them to go into these alternative routes. though i've seen MDs at managed care, industry (where they make bank but lie and rip off people or at the least biased). the reason this isn't always a good thing is because the Pharm.D degree is becoming more a Bachelors degree in healthcare than a degree where you practice solely as a healthcare professional. it's a reason why pharmacist aren't likely to ever get provider status, us pharmacists don't really provide anything that can be billed. the flexibility and alternative options are pluses, the job itself can be more flexible. it's why i feel pharmacy is a better field for women than men. women would enjoy the flexibility to raise kids and men who are more career oriented and preoccupied with work should do something else. of course this is more for a typical man works, women raises kid family structure which is still largely prevalent though not necessarily the case for many people.

If you had to do it over again, would you still pursue pharmacy? I have no allusions about retail pharmacy, but I see other options somewhat appealing, though, again, it may be harder to get into those positions. My main concern is mainly the debt one incurs in acquiring the degree, with the prospect of landing a solid position suspect.

 

[JROR]

it's worth it if you put minimal effort in. Imo i would not if i have a 4 yr degree. I would iff: 1 I went to cc for just 2 years
2. Got all A's in said cc courses
3. Was a tech for about a year

Basically all you need. Pharmacy was touted as a professional degree. Now it is just a little bit more than an advanced technical degree for pharm techs to become glorified pharm tech supervisors.

I already acquired that 4 yr degree, which seems to be nothing more than waste of time and money, have worked at jobs that hardly required a degree, and now I'm in that unhappy position of what to do. Pharmacy was on my radar before and it was something that popped up due to circumstances, but if it appears forlorn, then its back to the drawing board, so to speak.

I may ask this to most respondents, so forgive me for being repetitive, but would you still pursue pharmacy if you knew what you know now?

 

[JROR]

1) Software engineer / computer programmer (currently in extremely high demand, pays $100k+ right out of undergrad with minimal loans, might not even need a college degree)
2) Investment banker, accountant, actuary, or anything else in the finance field
3) Physician
4) Physician assistant
5) Dentist
6) Other engineer
7) Anything requiring no more than a college degree that is currently in demand

Do you think acquiring a master's degree in chemistry to be worthwhile? I already have a degree (liberal arts) with a minor in chemistry. I'm trying to figure out options that are in demand, and your number one choice above seems to be spot on, though I never thought of myself as extremely adept at computers. Your last choice may have answered my question, but as I already have a degree, I don't know if I should go back to get another bachelors or advance by way of graduate school.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Do you think acquiring a master's degree in chemistry to be worthwhile? I already have a degree (liberal arts) with a minor in chemistry. I'm trying to figure out options that are in demand, and your number one choice above seems to be spot on, though I never thought of myself as extremely adept at computers. Your last choice may have answered my question, but as I already have a degree, I don't know if I should go back to get another bachelors or advance by way of graduate school.

As I typed #7, I was thinking more along the lines of trade school (automotive mechanic, plumbing, etc), computer science, engineering, or finance. A master's or professional degree could be more worthwhile than getting another bachelor's if you can obtain it with a modest amount of debt. It doesn't seem as though chemistry is a good field though.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryn...t-and-worst-masters-degrees-for-jobs-in-2014/

 

[rederza]

I already acquired that 4 yr degree, which seems to be nothing more than waste of time and money, have worked at jobs that hardly required a degree, and now I'm in that unhappy position of what to do. Pharmacy was on my radar before and it was something that popped up due to circumstances, but if it appears forlorn, then its back to the drawing board, so to speak.

I may ask this to most respondents, so forgive me for being repetitive, but would you still pursue pharmacy if you knew what you know now?

No that's why I dropped out and am now pursuing medicine

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

If you had to do it over again, would you still pursue pharmacy? I have no allusions about retail pharmacy, but I see other options somewhat appealing, though, again, it may be harder to get into those positions. My main concern is mainly the debt one incurs in acquiring the degree, with the prospect of landing a solid position suspect.

Your last sentence should have answered the first question. "Do what makes you happy," (while also making financial sense to afford daily necessities) sadly, is an uphill battle unless your last name is Gates, Bloomberg, Kardashian, Jenner, Brady, Manning, Jeter and the other 0.1% of the nation's population. Choose something that you can tolerate and allows financial freedom. Software engineering will be useful so long as people are attached to their portable machines. Any city/state worker, police, teacher, union worker has generous pension plans and a stable 9-5 40 hour workweek. If you want to work in chemical industry, a degree in chemical engineering with relevant CO-OP experience will get your foot in the door. They will pay for your MBA if you show signs of committing to that company long-term.

 

[fewaopi]

If you had to do it over again, would you still pursue pharmacy? I have no allusions about retail pharmacy, but I see other options somewhat appealing, though, again, it may be harder to get into those positions. My main concern is mainly the debt one incurs in acquiring the degree, with the prospect of landing a solid position suspect.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have picked pharmacy. Mind you I say this and I have no debt whatsoever. My biggest regret is not really looking into other fields I could've gone into and having a tunnel vision that I should only do pharmacy. That's why it concerns me so many prepharmers are focused with their head in the dirt thinking only pharmacy and nothing else. There are so many options with many of them being better financially and personally that students don't consider. People should really consider what they want to actually do by shadowing first and students in every field don't exactly do that. Part of it is probably because of the limited time to explore different fields and high tuition costs of college in general leaving little time to dilly dally and follow different fields but really I wish I had done more research into the pharmacy profession.

I was actually aware of the pharmacy bubble in 09-10 when it was debated on SDN and now I see the full impact of it. They were absolutely right. I thought I would be okay because when I was a student there were still sign-on bonuses but the math cannot be refuted. Limited job growth, school openings and expansions will flood the job market causing more to be unemployed and for many not all to be underpaid. All of these predictions are happening and increasing year by year. The current job state isn't great for a significant number of pharmacists (compared to even as recent as 2008) and the outlook is worse and worse by the year especially in my area.

Many students aren't getting "jobs" after graduation either but do some type of post-doctorate training like residency, fellowships which is like another hidden pharmacy school of students ready to graduate and enter the job market once they leave those training positions as well. Some talk about other jobs like nuclear, LTC, compounding, consulting, infusion but those jobs I know are being filled pretty rapidly too by current pharmacy students who already know about them and there aren't too many openings to start with. They aren't hiring left and right to help accommodate 100s of students currently. Trust me us pharmacy grads and older students are aware of those jobs already, there won't be much left of them for you guys.

Arguments made by prepharmers such as BLS, baby boomers, the old US News Jobs Report not current one are similar arguments I've seen before when I was a student. Trust me I had some faith in the same words spouted too and as someone who recently graduated, it's mostly BS especially depending on the area you are in. Healthcare will expand but not at a rate fast enough to employ more than double the pharmacy schools in the US. In 09-10 you could hardly find any published literature or articles about job saturation so we couldn't really trust the words of pessimistic pharmacists. Now you are finding more and more it's becoming quite easy actually to find. Being at the other end of the spectrum and looking back at the students who are looking forward to pharmacy school, my advice is to strongly heed the reports and posts. Individual experiences and stories vary but more and more concern isn't coming out of thin air. And stories of being laid off and not able to find work because of old age aren't uncommon either.

Think about it, look at some prepharmer stats, if "not real bright" students can function as a pharmacist, would you honestly think the profession is respectable and hard to do? No it isn't, all you do is just verify, any monkey can be trained as a pharmacist which is why any retail manager can just hire any 2.5 GPA new grad to replace an older guy and the older pharmacist can't find work obviously cause that person is too much $$$. It's not just a harder field to get a job in, it's harder to stay in the game no matter how good you are.

You can say most economy is like that and you'd be right. That's probably why you should pay attention to politics and get involved in activism for middle-class, lower class people as 99% of us are more vulnerable poverty now. Elements of the pharmacy job market have parallels to other fields (saturation) some are more unique (ease of being replaced because any dumb person could be a pharmacist now) but other elements like age discrimination are national trend. If you're looking for a guaranteed job with lots of $$$$ and a 20-30 year working career, I wouldn't recommend pharmacy based off current and highly likely trends. I wouldn't say the pharmacy sky is free-falling but it's definitely getting more dark, stormier and coming gradually down on a parachute. In some areas, that parachute deployed a bit late now and it's not looking good in some areas of the US but it is happening everywhere.

 

[oldstock]

If I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have picked pharmacy. Mind you I say this and I have no debt whatsoever. My biggest regret is not really looking into other fields I could've gone into and having a tunnel vision that I should only do pharmacy. That's why it concerns me so many prepharmers are focused with their head in the dirt thinking only pharmacy and nothing else. There are so many options with many of them being better financially and personally that students don't consider. People should really consider what they want to actually do by shadowing first and students in every field don't exactly do that. Part of it is probably because of the limited time to explore different fields and high tuition costs of college in general leaving little time to dilly dally and follow different fields but really I wish I had done more research into the pharmacy profession.

I was actually aware of the pharmacy bubble in 09-10 when it was debated on SDN and now I see the full impact of it. They were absolutely right. I thought I would be okay because when I was a student there were still sign-on bonuses but the math cannot be refuted. Limited job growth, school openings and expansions will flood the job market causing more to be unemployed and for many not all to be underpaid. All of these predictions are happening and increasing year by year. The current job state isn't great for a significant number of pharmacists (compared to even as recent as 2008) and the outlook is worse and worse by the year especially in my area.

Many students aren't getting "jobs" after graduation either but do some type of post-doctorate training like residency, fellowships which is like another hidden pharmacy school of students ready to graduate and enter the job market once they leave those training positions as well. Some talk about other jobs like nuclear, LTC, compounding, consulting, infusion but those jobs I know are being filled pretty rapidly too by current pharmacy students who already know about them and there aren't too many openings to start with. They aren't hiring left and right to help accommodate 100s of students currently. Trust me us pharmacy grads and older students are aware of those jobs already, there won't be much left of them for you guys.

Arguments made by prepharmers such as BLS, baby boomers, the old US News Jobs Report not current one are similar arguments I've seen before when I was a student. Trust me I had some faith in the same words spouted too and as someone who recently graduated, it's mostly BS especially depending on the area you are in. Healthcare will expand but not at a rate fast enough to employ more than double the pharmacy schools in the US. In 09-10 you could hardly find any published literature or articles about job saturation so we couldn't really trust the words of pessimistic pharmacists. Now you are finding more and more it's becoming quite easy actually to find. Being at the other end of the spectrum and looking back at the students who are looking forward to pharmacy school, my advice is to strongly heed the reports and posts. Individual experiences and stories vary but more and more concern isn't coming out of thin air. And stories of being laid off and not able to find work because of old age aren't uncommon either.

Think about it, look at some prepharmer stats, if "not real bright" students can function as a pharmacist, would you honestly think the profession is respectable and hard to do? No it isn't, all you do is just verify, any monkey can be trained as a pharmacist which is why any retail manager can just hire any 2.5 GPA new grad to replace an older guy and the older pharmacist can't find work obviously cause that person is too much $$$. It's not just a harder field to get a job in, it's harder to stay in the game no matter how good you are.

You can say most economy is like that and you'd be right. That's probably why you should pay attention to politics and get involved in activism for middle-class, lower class people as 99% of us are more vulnerable poverty now. Elements of the pharmacy job market have parallels to other fields (saturation) some are more unique (ease of being replaced because any dumb person could be a pharmacist now) but other elements like age discrimination are national trend. If you're looking for a guaranteed job with lots of $$$$ and a 20-30 year working career, I wouldn't recommend pharmacy based off current and highly likely trends. I wouldn't say the pharmacy sky is free-falling but it's definitely getting more dark, stormier and coming gradually down on a parachute. In some areas, that parachute deployed a bit late now and it's not looking good in some areas of the US but it is happening everywhere.

we need to have more people like you who are recent grads to report on the current state of the pharmacy job market and pharmacy profession.

There are more stories of new pharmds / pharmacists about jobs on the net easily found by a simple Google search.

but you are right, anecdotal evidence asides, people need to check the numbers and facts themselves for the supply and demand equation for pharmacy job prospect.

It is a very simple math which I have done myself many times here. It is all about supply and demand.

Assuming no more pharmacy opening, there are ~ 14 - 21K new PharmD per year. According to the BLS's calculation based on 2013 data, there are only a total of 41,400 job openings for pharmacists between 2012 - 2022 or ~ 5,175 job openings annually.

This equates to ~ 60 - 70% chance for a new grad to be unemployed or that ~ 60 - 70% new grads will be unemployed.

This number are somewhat made less obvious due to a great portion of new grads absorbed by the quick turnover rate in retail pharmacy (the major job providers for pharmacists) and the number of grads going into post-doc training (residency and fellowship).

But there were 140 pharmacy schools at the end of 2014 and there are 142 at the end of January 2015 and accelerating. In fact, I have observed that the rate of new schools going up from ~ 0.5 - 1 school per month in 2014 to ~ 1 - 2 newly opening schools per month now.

Before long, at this exponential rate of school expansion, those buffers that afforded by the quick turnover rate in retail and residency/fellowship will be also filled quickly.

even if you did not want to do the math, you would intuitively know that something has to break at the rate new pharm schools are opening. It is only a matter of time.

another hard fact is that a typical pharmacy grad these days will on the avg accumulate ~ 160 - 180K in student loans and spend at least ~ 6 - 8 yrs for pharmacy school and post-doc training before fully practicing as a pharmacist.

the above 60 - 70% unemployment chance yields ~ 8.4 - 14.7K unemployed pharmacists per year x 8 yrs (2014 - 2022) = 67.2 - 117.6K unemployed in 2014 - 2022.

$160,ooo x 67,200 = $10,752,000,000 or $10.752B

$180,000 x 117,600 = $21,168,000,000 or $21.168B

$10.720 - 21.168B with interests (which can run as high as 7 - 8% for grad plus or even more if you borrow private loans. I have seen people posting about borrowing private loans at rates as high as 10s ++ % to go to pharmacy schools). Plug in the numbers for interests and see for yourself how crazy the total amount of debts is. And this only accounts for rx grads of the 2014 - 2022 period. Pretty crazy.

how are all those unemployed pharmacists paying back all that money ?? What is/are going to happen if they cannot pay pack their debts ??

A bubble, indeed, is forming and growing quickly in pharmacy.

More and more articles are recently written about the pharmacy bubble, not only in public media but also in respectable published scientific journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine.

To predict what can and are happening to the pharmacy bubble, a lot can also be learned from history. This is not the only time bubbles formed went burst in higher education. Bubbles already happened with dental schools in the 80 - 90s, law schools in the 2000's, nursing schools, etc.

Now it is happening w pharmacy. One can expect the same consequences which happened for those fields for pharmacy.


pre-pharmers should do more research / DD for themselves and not ignore the reality and numbers. Information is there plenty on the Internet, media, published literature, which are these days only a few keyboard's clicks away. Gather the numbers and run the math yourself. Ask pharm schools and pharmacy organizations all the hard questions you can imagine or think of about retention rate, most recent 1st time board pass rate, full time employment rate, how quick new grads finding jobs, how many new grads reporting and their current states of employment vs the total graduated class, etc in pharmacy interviews, open house, or seminars. If they dodge your questions and/or give you some run-around/convoluted answers instead of straightforward ones or cannot or will not give you any number, that is a good sign that they want to hide the facts and truth from you.

But then again pharm schools and pharmacy organizations are biased anyway so their KoolAids are expected. Their jobs are to try to sell the dream to students. Remember when you buy in the pharmacy dream, pharm schools always got paid first.

Be open-minded and explore alternative career choices that are out there for you. Pharmacy is not the only career option.

Only after gathering and considering all facts / numbers and comparing to their personal situation, one should then decide if pharmacy is the career worth invest all their time and money in.

imho this crazy situation in pharmacy can be stopped and the damages can be minimized if more and more people are informed about the current state in pharmacy. Let's hope !! 🙂

 

[68quebec]

If I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have picked pharmacy. Mind you I say this and I have no debt whatsoever. My biggest regret is not really looking into other fields I could've gone into and having a tunnel vision that I should only do pharmacy. That's why it concerns me so many prepharmers are focused with their head in the dirt thinking only pharmacy and nothing else. There are so many options with many of them being better financially and personally that students don't consider. People should really consider what they want to actually do by shadowing first and students in every field don't exactly do that. Part of it is probably because of the limited time to explore different fields and high tuition costs of college in general leaving little time to dilly dally and follow different fields but really I wish I had done more research into the pharmacy profession.

I was actually aware of the pharmacy bubble in 09-10 when it was debated on SDN and now I see the full impact of it. They were absolutely right. I thought I would be okay because when I was a student there were still sign-on bonuses but the math cannot be refuted. Limited job growth, school openings and expansions will flood the job market causing more to be unemployed and for many not all to be underpaid. All of these predictions are happening and increasing year by year. The current job state isn't great for a significant number of pharmacists (compared to even as recent as 2008) and the outlook is worse and worse by the year especially in my area.

Many students aren't getting "jobs" after graduation either but do some type of post-doctorate training like residency, fellowships which is like another hidden pharmacy school of students ready to graduate and enter the job market once they leave those training positions as well. Some talk about other jobs like nuclear, LTC, compounding, consulting, infusion but those jobs I know are being filled pretty rapidly too by current pharmacy students who already know about them and there aren't too many openings to start with. They aren't hiring left and right to help accommodate 100s of students currently. Trust me us pharmacy grads and older students are aware of those jobs already, there won't be much left of them for you guys.

Arguments made by prepharmers such as BLS, baby boomers, the old US News Jobs Report not current one are similar arguments I've seen before when I was a student. Trust me I had some faith in the same words spouted too and as someone who recently graduated, it's mostly BS especially depending on the area you are in. Healthcare will expand but not at a rate fast enough to employ more than double the pharmacy schools in the US. In 09-10 you could hardly find any published literature or articles about job saturation so we couldn't really trust the words of pessimistic pharmacists. Now you are finding more and more it's becoming quite easy actually to find. Being at the other end of the spectrum and looking back at the students who are looking forward to pharmacy school, my advice is to strongly heed the reports and posts. Individual experiences and stories vary but more and more concern isn't coming out of thin air. And stories of being laid off and not able to find work because of old age aren't uncommon either.

Think about it, look at some prepharmer stats, if "not real bright" students can function as a pharmacist, would you honestly think the profession is respectable and hard to do? No it isn't, all you do is just verify, any monkey can be trained as a pharmacist which is why any retail manager can just hire any 2.5 GPA new grad to replace an older guy and the older pharmacist can't find work obviously cause that person is too much $$$. It's not just a harder field to get a job in, it's harder to stay in the game no matter how good you are.

You can say most economy is like that and you'd be right. That's probably why you should pay attention to politics and get involved in activism for middle-class, lower class people as 99% of us are more vulnerable poverty now. Elements of the pharmacy job market have parallels to other fields (saturation) some are more unique (ease of being replaced because any dumb person could be a pharmacist now) but other elements like age discrimination are national trend. If you're looking for a guaranteed job with lots of $$$$ and a 20-30 year working career, I wouldn't recommend pharmacy based off current and highly likely trends. I wouldn't say the pharmacy sky is free-falling but it's definitely getting more dark, stormier and coming gradually down on a parachute. In some areas, that parachute deployed a bit late now and it's not looking good in some areas of the US but it is happening everywhere.

I cannot agree more than this. What a great post!

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

If I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have picked pharmacy. Mind you I say this and I have no debt whatsoever. My biggest regret is not really looking into other fields I could've gone into and having a tunnel vision that I should only do pharmacy. That's why it concerns me so many prepharmers are focused with their head in the dirt thinking only pharmacy and nothing else. There are so many options with many of them being better financially and personally that students don't consider. People should really consider what they want to actually do by shadowing first and students in every field don't exactly do that. Part of it is probably because of the limited time to explore different fields and high tuition costs of college in general leaving little time to dilly dally and follow different fields but really I wish I had done more research into the pharmacy profession.

I was actually aware of the pharmacy bubble in 09-10 when it was debated on SDN and now I see the full impact of it. They were absolutely right. I thought I would be okay because when I was a student there were still sign-on bonuses but the math cannot be refuted. Limited job growth, school openings and expansions will flood the job market causing more to be unemployed and for many not all to be underpaid. All of these predictions are happening and increasing year by year. The current job state isn't great for a significant number of pharmacists (compared to even as recent as 2008) and the outlook is worse and worse by the year especially in my area.

Many students aren't getting "jobs" after graduation either but do some type of post-doctorate training like residency, fellowships which is like another hidden pharmacy school of students ready to graduate and enter the job market once they leave those training positions as well. Some talk about other jobs like nuclear, LTC, compounding, consulting, infusion but those jobs I know are being filled pretty rapidly too by current pharmacy students who already know about them and there aren't too many openings to start with. They aren't hiring left and right to help accommodate 100s of students currently. Trust me us pharmacy grads and older students are aware of those jobs already, there won't be much left of them for you guys.

Arguments made by prepharmers such as BLS, baby boomers, the old US News Jobs Report not current one are similar arguments I've seen before when I was a student. Trust me I had some faith in the same words spouted too and as someone who recently graduated, it's mostly BS especially depending on the area you are in. Healthcare will expand but not at a rate fast enough to employ more than double the pharmacy schools in the US. In 09-10 you could hardly find any published literature or articles about job saturation so we couldn't really trust the words of pessimistic pharmacists. Now you are finding more and more it's becoming quite easy actually to find. Being at the other end of the spectrum and looking back at the students who are looking forward to pharmacy school, my advice is to strongly heed the reports and posts. Individual experiences and stories vary but more and more concern isn't coming out of thin air. And stories of being laid off and not able to find work because of old age aren't uncommon either.

Think about it, look at some prepharmer stats, if "not real bright" students can function as a pharmacist, would you honestly think the profession is respectable and hard to do? No it isn't, all you do is just verify, any monkey can be trained as a pharmacist which is why any retail manager can just hire any 2.5 GPA new grad to replace an older guy and the older pharmacist can't find work obviously cause that person is too much $$$. It's not just a harder field to get a job in, it's harder to stay in the game no matter how good you are.

You can say most economy is like that and you'd be right. That's probably why you should pay attention to politics and get involved in activism for middle-class, lower class people as 99% of us are more vulnerable poverty now. Elements of the pharmacy job market have parallels to other fields (saturation) some are more unique (ease of being replaced because any dumb person could be a pharmacist now) but other elements like age discrimination are national trend. If you're looking for a guaranteed job with lots of $$$$ and a 20-30 year working career, I wouldn't recommend pharmacy based off current and highly likely trends. I wouldn't say the pharmacy sky is free-falling but it's definitely getting more dark, stormier and coming gradually down on a parachute. In some areas, that parachute deployed a bit late now and it's not looking good in some areas of the US but it is happening everywhere.

When users such as type B pharm D approximate a statistic such as 50% unemployment, I would take concern. 50% might be an underestimate FWIW, who knows? One of the most optimistic users in the history of SDN cannot even refute this disturbing trend. P3's and P4's are getting desperate, too many are aiming for retail (or its their only choice), some are doubling down on rotations at a single site in an attempt to stand out, others are clinging on the hope that learning Spanish in a year will make them magically fluent and thus be marketable as an employee, it won't be surprising if preceptors and hiring DM's start getting gifts, cards and chocolates by the dozen in the next few years as a way to get on their good side. The higher ups have such a grasp on this market, it would be a good idea to start mandating required residency programs at CVS soon. Another year of cheap labor.