Need some help with transfer/reapply

[typhon89007]

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Hi, I have an issue, and while I know most of you are pretty hostile about people in my situation, I wanted to know if anyone has something that may help me to try to transfer or reapply.

The short version of everything is during my second year I cheated on an exam and I was dismissed from the school. I've been working as a medical salesman and a roofer basically since then. However, both the Dean of Medical education and the Dean of the school both have reviewed the case and they think that the school made a mistake with me. They even wrote me a letter, saying that I should be allowed back into medical school and they, and many of the faculty, have given me their full support. I'm a good student, I actually was really depressed and alone, and I was so worried about money that I really went to an awful place. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not, its just the way it was. While being dismissed, I also took Step 1, got a 243, it was in 2014. They looked at my record and my research and they believe I'm definitely not a problem. They tried to reinstate me, but due to the fact that the decision was made by a previous dean, they couldn't overturn it. Legal issues, but they have said they will do whatever to help me get into another school.

I know that the Caribbean schools are available for people in my position, but do you know of any others that are reputable? I know I'll have to struggle with this through the rest of my career into residency, and I went through some very very bad times. No one feels crappier than me, and I've seen people get viciously attacked on here, but I know I want this more than most have even imagined, and I'd really like some advice.

I'm worried about my reapplication to schools. My first issue is that I know how much I've forgotten just trying to survive, and I would definitely be happy if the school even wanted me to repeat years, or just do it all over. I'd study hard to try and be up to scratch for year 3 as well, because I know they really don't like you going and doing years after taking step 1. My academic counselor, who actually spoke during my case attesting for me, said that it could only help having a good score. I got the score, but I think it may actually make things hard for me. I know transfer students even in the BEST of circumstances are rare. Reapplication would be an option, so if anyone knows any good but hopefully cheap medical schools they could post them. I had a 32s on my mcat, which was previous to the change in the test they had. I honored my medical school classes, and yes, I did it without cheating. The one time was isolated because I panicked because I was working on research projects in EM with a doctor, working during school to try to get paid because I didn't have enough money to eat or have toilet paper. No I'm not making this up. I freaked out because I was more worried about being right then doing right...

I've been told to go join the army and die in the war, be a garbage man, told I'm a piece of shi*. I hate every day, but yet all these people think I'm good enough, so please, can anyone give me some advice?

 

[Mr Roboto]

What mistake do they think they made in dismissing you?

 

[typhon89007]

That I'm actually a good candidate, and that they were heavy handed with the punishment. I was actually forthright and did everything I could to tell them the type of person I was. Even went before the school's board and had people that wanted to speak for me. They wanted to reinstate, but apparently legally they can't, because the previous dean made the decision. They met with me and they looked over everything, and they said I deserve the chance to be a doctor, and that I'm a good student who made a mistake. They are very supportive. I'm sure I'll need them to talk to any dean of admission for a school, but they are busy, and I'm not sure how much they can advocate, strictly speaking

I think that the decision, according to them, was made because the previous dean was under a lot of scrutiny for the school, and basically instituted no tolerance for me so that it wouldn't be called into question later. I was told that "had we been in charge, this wouldn't have ended this way"

 

[justin1390]

We all make mistakes and do bad stuff, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I mean, let's be honest, everyone has skeletons in their closet and most will NEVER tell you. Cheating, drugs, addiction, personal life problems, psychiatric illness, etc. Personally, I can't relate to your situation. But I do think people telling you these things are probably those who have the most skeletons in their closet = they need the ego boost. Few thoughts on this:

1. Doesn't matter how good of a person you are, some life options are dictated purely by circumstance. You cheated, and even if that consisted of writing a single diagnosis on your hand, you have unfortunately forfeited much of the opportunity you had by the rules that govern the medical profession. Any school now looks at you as a liability. As it turns out, rapport is the hardest gained and most easily lost attribute. Not to say that you can't get back in, but you need to understand that the fight will unfortunately carry through with you professionally for a very long time, as many employers want to know if you had academic probation or disciplinary action. You need to decide if that is a hill you want to climb.
2. Good student or not, it is impossible for anyone to judge your prior performance in the light of integrity, and that will add to your challenging situation
3. You are most likely going to have to search for a medical school outside of the US. I think Caribbean and European schools are going to offer you the best chances. But you need to be prepared to start at square one and foot the cost.
4. Do NOT lie on any application process. It would be better to apply two years in a row then be blacklisted because of further dishonesty, as you will effectively kill your future in any career related to medical practice.
5. I would caution getting your hopes up, simply because there are cleaner slates out there, and most programs are going to gravitate toward that. I would really, really focus on spinning this in a positive light, citing what you've learned and how EXACTLY this will translate into practice/make you a better doc.

Best of luck! Probably not what you were wanting to hear, but hopefully the most unbiased truth. Have your backup plans and do your best.

 

[precisiongraphic]

Can your original school readmit you and have you repeat years one and two? It is definitely a catch-22 as I think admission to a US medical school is unlikely.

Caribbean is (rightly) much maligned here but that might be your only chance. I do worry that if you got done with all four years, had good board scores that your past would haunt you and you wouldn't get a residency slot, thus adding extra debt to your precarious position.

Does anyone at the old school have any ideas or are they willing to go to bat for you at another school?
There have been several threads here about what to do if one doesn't finish residency. You might go to a plan b (medical consulting, pharm sales/admin, medical admin, writer, etc) where you'll make a decent living and use your skills. Good luck.

And let this be a cautionary tale for current and future MS students. If you're broke, behind in your studies, anxious, depressed, manic, grieving a loss, overwhelmed or lost, see a dean, trusted faculty member or student counselling service STAT. Don't let it spiral downward.

 

[tennischamp822]

...

 

[precisiongraphic]

Try a new/low tier DO school as well - not a popular opinion but I know people in real life who withdrew/got dismissed from MD school and then got into DO school a year or two later.

The only issue is that these schools are mad expensive (but so are many schools in the Caribbean)

DO is an option too. Some MD profs may have links to DO schools - maybe ask those med school professors that are on your side.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Really not sure why people think that DO schools are going to accept you. I believe @Goro has said applications like this would be DOA at his school, for one.

 

[tennischamp822]

.

 

[DokterMom]

I'm trying to imagine a 'cheating' circumstance where both the Dean of Medical education and the Dean of the school would be in favor of readmitting you but would be legally precluded from doing so -- But you say that is the case and that both of these worthy individuals would be willing to go to bat for you to help you earn another chance. I'll take your words for it --

And if so, I think that's what it will take. I'd ask your Dean of Med Ed what schools s/he suggests you apply to and if s/he will make a few phone calls on your behalf. I think you'll probably need a 'dean to dean' connection to be admitted to a US MD or DO school and if the deans who know you best and know the circumstances of your case are willing to go to bat for you, then something may be possible.

Without strings being pulled, I suspect anything US-based is off the table

 

[Goro]

I agree 1000% with my young colleague. IF the Deans said exactly that to you, my gut tells me that they were lying. Or spinning the truth so madly it's amazing that they didn't fly right out of the room.

Just for the cheating situation alone, OP would DOA at my school.

Sorry OP, I can't sugar-coat this: Your medical career is over. Time for Plan B.

I'm trying to imagine a 'cheating' circumstance where both the Dean of Medical education and the Dean of the school would be in favor of readmitting you but would be legally precluded from doing so -- But you say that is the case and that both of these worthy individuals would be willing to go to bat for you to help you earn another chance. I'll take your words for it --

And if so, I think that's what it will take. I'd ask your Dean of Med Ed what schools s/he suggests you apply to and if s/he will make a few phone calls on your behalf. I think you'll probably need a 'dean to dean' connection to be admitted to a US MD or DO school and if the deans who know you best and know the circumstances of your case are willing to go to bat for you, then something may be possible.

Without strings being pulled, I suspect anything US-based is off the table

 

[Mr Roboto]

Not saying the best DO schools will accept him.

But there are new DO schools that are accepting people with super low MCAT scores (22-25 range) that would probably give the OP another chance depending on how he spins his application. Unfortunately, pretty much all of these new schools are also outrageously expensive.

Lol how do you think someone can spin this in an application? "I got expelled for cheating on an exam, but that was at a tough school and I'm really smart--let me into your easy school and I won't need to cheat"? Because that's not how the admissions process works.

 

[typhon89007]

Well, the dean's had said they had asked legal to see about reinstatement, and the reason they won't, that they cite to legal, is that they can't let me back because it would open Pandora's box. They think that if there is a case of letting someone back in, all previous students with bad records have reason to try their case. The dean's actually thought I shouldn't have been dismissed, and if others tried they would be denied. But as far as people that didn't believe the circumstances, they wrote an actual dean's letter to attempt to get back in.

And as for saying my career is dead and plan b, doing some sort of sales, that's what I have been doing. I lost my house, my stuff, and eventually started selling roofs. I've tried getting my feet back doing anything for two and a half years. I tried applying, working as a server and bartender again. I know SDN is pretty stringent on non-suicidal talk, so I won't. You don't get sales positions from two years of med school. Sometimes even all 4. Unfortunately my undergrad degrees are useless, and my loans were maxed, so there isn't a recourse there either.

 

[bannie22]

I dont have much of value to aid you in your situation but would just like to support you in your search for a new school because I also feel that your school was way too harsh.

Cheating is intolerable but not infrequent if you take into account the small things like bring home exams, staggered testing schedules, standerdized patient exams etc...

 

[precisiongraphic]

Well, the dean's had said they had asked legal to see about reinstatement, and the reason they won't, that they cite to legal, is that they can't let me back because it would open Pandora's box. They think that if there is a case of letting someone back in, all previous students with bad records have reason to try their case. The dean's actually thought I shouldn't have been dismissed, and if others tried they would be denied. But as far as people that didn't believe the circumstances, they wrote an actual dean's letter to attempt to get back in.

And as for saying my career is dead and plan b, doing some sort of sales, that's what I have been doing. I lost my house, my stuff, and eventually started selling roofs. I've tried getting my feet back doing anything for two and a half years. I tried applying, working as a server and bartender again. I know SDN is pretty stringent on non-suicidal talk, so I won't. You don't get sales positions from two years of med school. Sometimes even all 4. Unfortunately my undergrad degrees are useless, and my loans were maxed, so there isn't a recourse there either.

Unfortunately if you can't get the deans from your old school to help you find a new school, then I think that med school is off the table, sorry.

You may not end up in the career that you envisioned but you can find fulfilling work in another field. For help, try your undergrad school's career counseling office if it's near you. For self-service help, read "Pathfinder" by Nicholas Lore - should be available at local library or on kindle. Sales experience is very transferable to many fields and you can leverage that skill to transition to a better field. Many people just fall into careers - you can direct yours.

Since you mentioned that you've maxed out loans you could look for an employer that offers tuition assistance. Many banks, hospitals and large companies (Boeing comes to mind) give full-time employees tuition assistance and in the case of some they do not require that the classes/degree be related to the person's current job though some are more restrictive. You could get an MBA, MPH, Master Library Science, Masters in Nutrition - lots of fields.

I do career/life coaching on the side so PM me if you want to talk (no charge).

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You're in a tough spot, that's for sure. It's not that your school can't readmit you -- it's that they won't do it. Their excuse is that it might allow other dismissed students to do the same -- or, more correctly, it would allow past or future dismissed students to sue the school stating that they were discriminated against because you were reinstated after cheating, where they were not. And although that might not be true, fighting a lawsuit like that is a huge pain.

I see several options:

1. See if your Dean can get you into a different degree program at the same school, like an MPH. You may run into the same brick wall (i.e. once dismissed, no longer admitted to any program at the school). But if not then MAYBE you could do an MPH, and then MAYBE that would open the door to restart your MD. I doubt it, but perhaps worth asking.

2. As others have mentioned, this is going to take a Dean-to-Dean favor to happen at another US school. It might. I had a resident who I had to let go for a professionalism problem. But I thought they were still a good person, and still deserved a chance. I advocated for them with another PD that I know personally, and their career continued. So, the question is NOT what school would you like to go to, the question is what Dean does your Dean know well enough that they would consider accepting you?

3. The carib. I expect one of the schools would accept your Step score as proof of basic science mastery, and let you start in the clinical years. Assuming you do well, you'll likely match somewhere although you'll need to be happy with FM / Path / Neuro / Psych.

I don't think DO schools are an option -- you have no OMM skills at all, and you haven't taken the COMLEX.

If you're going to do anything, you need to do it now. The longer you wait, the harder it's going to get.

Forgot option #4: Sue your school for terminating you if it truly was illegal. If it was "unfair", you likely have no legal recourse. This is scorched earth territory -- once you go down this road, all other roads close.