Need some helpful advice

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People like underdogs, and also like a good comeback story. Yours is a very common story as well. There are schools that like and reward reinvention, like Tulane and NYMC. So, even though your cGPA is below avg for acceptees at MD and DO programs (avgs are 3.6 and 3.5), your sGPA is fine, and you ARE competitive!

So ace the MCAT, invest in the MSAR, target schools trategically, and you'll be fine. Check and let us know how things turn out, too. Good luck!


I am not trying to turn this into a "what are my chances," but I would like some friendly advice on how strong my story is. Assume that all other aspects of my application are strong and acceptable. I have 1.5+ years of research and clinical experience, multiple LORs (though only 1 from a science teacher, but 2 from the head of my research and clinical programs), shadowing of multiple fields, I've been a TA for undergrad biology labs, and have other leadership roles under my belt.
 
HappyFeet14 said:
I would really like some helpful advice to my specific situation regarding my pre-med undergraduate journey. Here is my story.

First off, I started my undergrad at UNLV (Nevada) and was highly unmotivated with what I wanted to do with my life. I was accepted into the school under a "pre-med" degree though I did not put forth the effort that I should have for such a program. I took mostly GE classes, save for a 1 or 2 science classes, my freshman year including an ENTIRE YEAR of pre-calculus as I was skeptical about taking calculus right out the door (my SAT score allowed me to). I ended up doing terribly my entire freshman year with a cgpa 2.6 and BCPMgpa 2.1. These gpas reflect the 2 Cs and 1 D that I got in the year pre-calc series and History.

Despite this terrible start, my sophmore year I decided to take calculus and received a B+ (showing that pre-calc was just a fluke????) I was also toying with the idea of going into computer science and took a CS class to test this theory. I subsequently learned that sitting behind a desk coding for 10 hours every day was not something I wanted to do and ended up with a C in the class. At the end of my sophmore year I came out with a "little" bit better cgpa of 3.18 and a BCPMgpa of 3.66 (this is the for the year alone, not a total. The total cgpa/bcpms are much lower). It was in the middle of my second semester of my sophmore year that I had an epiphany of what I wanted out of my life and completely changed my attitude about not only my schooling, but family, friends, etc. I basically become a completely new person, going from depressed and unmotivated, to driven, focused, and more motivated than I could handle.

Every semester since that turning point I have received an A in every single class I've taken. The only "non-A" was receiving an A- in both organic 1 and 2, but I suppose those can still be considered As. Since that turning point it has been a constant uphill battle to recover my terrible GPA and get to a point where I would be a strong applicant for medical school.

In the middle of all of this, 2 semesters ago I moved from Las Vegas to San Jose, CA in order to be a more competitive CA applicant as well as move in with a long-time girlfriend. I should have mentioned that I originally am from CA but moved to NV due to parent job opportunities; however, while in NV they received another opportunity in Ohio and moved there, leaving me in NV alone for school. Currently I'm chugging away at my schooling here in CA and expect to receive another semester of straight As to boost my gpa even further.

My current TOTAL cgpa is 3.486 while my BCPMgpa is 3.62. Unfortunately, that C and D in the pre-calc series has tanked my gpa so hard; my cgpa without them is 3.6 and sgpa is 3.85. I am currently studying for the MCAT on March 22, and crossing my fingers that I do well. I will applying this cycle come June and was toying with the idea of retaking pre-calc at my new school, but it seemed like such a stretch and I would rather just explain my story.

I am not trying to turn this into a "what are my chances," but I would like some friendly advice on how strong my story is. Assume that all other aspects of my application are strong and acceptable. I have 1.5+ years of research and clinical experience, multiple LORs (though only 1 from a science teacher, but 2 from the head of my research and clinical programs), shadowing of multiple fields, I've been a TA for undergrad biology labs, and have other leadership roles under my belt.

I have to run for a couple hours, but will add more to this in a couple hours. Thanks in advance SDN,
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Regardless of where you attend school now, unless you took off a year for full-time employment in California, you are more likely to be considered an Ohio resident for med school application purposes, since your parents work and reside there. This is very fortunate, as there are more forgiving med schools in Ohio (particularly, also take a look at Wayne in MI, which reportedly primarily considers the GPA of your last 30 credit hours) than in California. If an MD acceptance is important to you, and you don't intend to apply to California DO schools as well, I suggest you establish a paper trail (library card, voters registration, paying state taxes, etc) in Ohio in order to statistically improve your odds of acceptance there.
 
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Catalystik said:
Regardless of where you attend school now, unless you took off a year for full-time employment in California, you are more likely to be considered an Ohio resident for med school application purposes, since your parents work and reside there. This is very fortunate, as there are more forgiving med schools in Ohio (particularly take a look at Wayne, which reportedly primarily considers the GPA of your last 30 credit hours) than in California. If an MD acceptance is important to you, and you don't intend to apply to California DO schools as well, I suggest you establish a paper trail (library card, voters registration, paying state taxes, etc) in Ohio in order to statistically improve your odds of acceptance there.
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Wayne is a Michigan school, in the lovely city of Detroit. They will replace your sGPA, with the GPA of 20+credits in post-bac BCPM classes.
Wright is in OH and I have no clue what they do with GPAs.
 
You should be fine, you have what we call an upward trend. The only part of your story that I was really turned off by was when you talked about your CS class. Not wanting to go into programing as a career is a really bad excuse for doing poorly in a course, don't use that. Good luck 🙂
 
kyamh said:
You should be fine, you have what we call an upward trend. The only part of your story that I was really turned off by was when you talked about your CS class. Not wanting to go into programing as a career is a really bad excuse for doing poorly in a course, don't use that. Good luck 🙂
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Forgive my poor explanation. I received a C in the computer science course because it was ridiculously hard, not because of not wanting to go into programming. The off-putting taste CS left in my mouth after that class was what drove me away from computer science. I remembered many many days that I spent 8+ hours sitting in front of my computer working on a coding project and running trials to get it right, only to receive a mediocre grade for the project. I truly worked by behind off for that class.

After this semester, if I can pull off another 4.0, my cgpa will be 3.54 and my sgpa will be 3.67 by the time I apply for this cycle. Do you guys feel this puts me in a better position for MD programs?

Also, I am definitely going to be applying to both MD and DO programs. I have a preference for MD, but understand that my chances for DO are most likely significantly higher.

Here is a little more about my story:

I come from a family where my mother raised me and my sisters by herself until she found her current husband (7 years ago, I am 22). My family does not have much medical background, though my mother was an endodontal assistant (is this correct phrasing?) and I spent many days going into her office and watch/help her prep trays for surgeries for lack of someone to babysit me. I would have to say that the experience influenced my affinity for science a great deal, though I feel that I have an innate affinity for it as well. When my mother married my step-father, we went to great lengths for him to pursue a managerial position in a large retail chain and moved every year while I was in highschool. I don't know how I came out of having relatively no support around me from getting up-rooted all the time, but I did and am stronger because of it. We ended up in Las Vegas and that is where the previous post begins.

More specific info about my ECs:
-1yr research assistance at UMC (university medical center) in Las Vegas for the ER department. I was not author on any research, but was intricately involved and had direct patient, RN, and physician contact for its entirety.
-6 months (and currently) hospitality volunteer in the Peri-Operative department (surgery) at a local hospital where I live in CA. Direct physician, RN, patient, tech contact for its entirety. My main responsiblity is helping RNs with care of
post-op patients in the recovery room and updating families.
-1yr officer of chemistry club in Las Vegas (was an organizational leader)
-Shadowing in a few different fields including: ophthalmology, podiatry, general surgery, anesthesiology, and emergency medicine.
-1.5yrs of UTA (undergraduate teaching assistant) for biology 1 and 2 labs in Las Vegas. Responsibilities included actually teaching lab lectures to students.
-Various volunteer work with humanity groups, homeless groups, etc.
-4 very strong LORS: 1 from LV research director/physician, 1 from director of CA peri-op program, 1 from science teacher, 1 from previous employer. (I would like to get more)
-During my UMC research stay I was able to attend some very amazing events where I saw ER doctors in action. 1 was a wilderness simulation in Red Rock in Las Vegas (remote area) where ER physicians handled simulated emergencies with things like injurys, allergies, etc. I was a involved as a "patient" in the simulations. Another was at a simulation lab at a medical school campus where ER physicians were given simulation rooms with various scenarios they had to handle (without prior knowledge).

Total clinical (peri-op) hours = about 100 hours
Total research (UMC ER) hours = 175 hours
Total shadowing = 5-10 hours each field listed

Are there any major holes that someone see in anything I have referenced?
Thank you everyone for the helpful advice 🙂
 
Another thing that I should mention is that because I graduated and attended all CA highschools, I am considered an AB540 resident in CA. It basically means I am an OOS transfer, but am eligible for all the benefits of CA residents.

My main state focus for applications is CA, Ohio, Some surrounding Ohio states like Indiana, Kentucky, and Michigan, and then New York. Am I hurting myself by limiting to these states? I have the MSAR and based upon my statistics, I have a good 20+ schools in just those few states that I would be "relatively" competitive for.
 
Sorry for the TLDR type posts. Would love some more feedback 🙂
 
HappyFeet14 said:
Another thing that I should mention is that because I graduated and attended all CA highschools, I am considered an AB540 resident in CA. It basically means I am an OOS transfer, but am eligible for all the benefits of CA residents.

My main state focus for applications is CA, Ohio, Some surrounding Ohio states like Indiana, Kentucky, and Michigan, and then New York. Am I hurting myself by limiting to these states? I have the MSAR and based upon my statistics, I have a good 20+ schools in just those few states that I would be "relatively" competitive for.
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I believe the point of Catalystik's post was that you are going into this cycle with lower than average stats, especially for CA schools. If you want your BEST SHOT at MD acceptance, claim Ohio residency rather than moving over to CA.
 
ahstern said:
I believe the point of Catalystik's post was that you are going into this cycle with lower than average stats, especially for CA schools. If you want your BEST SHOT at MD acceptance, claim Ohio residency rather than moving over to CA.
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I find that a very difficult thing to accomplish as I do not spend any significant amount of time in Ohio with my parents (except the occasional holiday), and certainly not any amount of time between now and June. A library card is one thing, but voter's registration and state taxes definitely require a physical presence that cannot be falsified. CA is currently my permanent residence and where I am finishing my undergrad degree. Forgive me, perhaps I am still not understanding correctly.
 
Googled Ohio residency for medical school.

First post was:
http://med.uc.edu/studentservices/FinancialServices/OhioResidency.aspx

If you're still a dependent student ("CA is currently my permanent residence and where I am finishing my undergrad degree"), then:

"A dependent student will be classified as a resident of Ohio if at least one parent or legal guardian has been a resident of the state of Ohio for all other legal purposes for at least twelve (12) consecutive months immediately preceding the enrollment of the student in the University." You can claim Ohio residency based off of that pretense.

There may be more to it then that, but it is DEFINITELY worth looking into.



EDIT:
Not wanting to double-post, but I did some research on your behalf about claiming residency (why yes, I AM having a wonderful valentine's day!).
Namely, I wondered whether your chances would be better as CA vs. OH.
I looked first at this table, credit goes to @gyngyn 9 days ago for first bringing it up and @ChemEngMD for finding the link:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/2012factstable5.pdf

Ok. So it looks like Ohio kids get in at a 46% clip and CA at 43%...not a huge difference. Then I assumed Cali kids had higher stats, so I looked at:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321500/data/2012factstable20.pdf

Whoops! turns out that while California kids have a higher MCAT, Ohio actually beats their overall GPA slightly! So that point is a wash. Maybe this whole "California is murder to med students" thing is overblown.
Caveats:
1. more applicants per seat in California, so while the overall stats may be similar, that means there are more high qualified students in California.
2. More students attain in state acceptance in Ohio, so there's that.
3. Tuition. California tuition is, even for in-staters, rough.

So just more information to help you on your way.
 
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I had no idea such an option existed. Thank you ahstern, that is very helpful. 🙂
 
ahstern said:
Googled Ohio residency for medical school.

First post was:
http://med.uc.edu/studentservices/FinancialServices/OhioResidency.aspx

If you're still a dependent student ("CA is currently my permanent residence and where I am finishing my undergrad degree"), then:

"A dependent student will be classified as a resident of Ohio if at least one parent or legal guardian has been a resident of the state of Ohio for all other legal purposes for at least twelve (12) consecutive months immediately preceding the enrollment of the student in the University." You can claim Ohio residency based off of that pretense.

There may be more to it then that, but it is DEFINITELY worth looking into.



EDIT:
Not wanting to double-post, but I did some research on your behalf about claiming residency (why yes, I AM having a wonderful valentine's day!).
Namely, I wondered whether your chances would be better as CA vs. OH.
I looked first at this table, credit goes to @gyngyn 9 days ago for first bringing it up and @ChemEngMD for finding the link:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/2012factstable5.pdf

Ok. So it looks like Ohio kids get in at a 46% clip and CA at 43%...not a huge difference. Then I assumed Cali kids had higher stats, so I looked at:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321500/data/2012factstable20.pdf

Whoops! turns out that while California kids have a higher MCAT, Ohio actually beats their overall GPA slightly! So that point is a wash. Maybe this whole "California is murder to med students" thing is overblown.
Caveats:
1. more applicants per seat in California, so while the overall stats may be similar, that means there are more high qualified students in California.
2. More students attain in state acceptance in Ohio, so there's that.
3. Tuition. California tuition is, even for in-staters, rough.

So just more information to help you on your way.
Click to expand...

That is all very helpful, thanks again.
Checking the MSAR, surprisingly tuition rates for CA and Ohio for in-state vs. OOS are relatively similar at 30kish/year for instate and 50kish/year OOS for both states; though there are some CA schools that charge the same rate for in-state vs. OOS.
 
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Have you been in contact with the rest of the AB450 student community with regard to the issue of state residency and potential for federal loans for medical school? Other states may view your status very differently. Though CA state-affiliated undergrads may choose to view you as OOS, medical schools may view your status differently, especially if it means you will not be able to secure funding or be eligible for the Match.
 
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gyngyn said:
Have you been in contact with the rest of the AB450 student community with regard to the issue of state residency and potential for federal loans for medical school? Other states may view your status very differently. Though CA state-affiliated undergrads may choose to view you as OOS, medical schools may view your status differently, especially if it means you will not be able to secure funding or be eligible for the Match.
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Would you mind elaborating on this for me a bit? I am a novice on the subject of financial aid for medical school and the contributing factors.
 
All of us in CA are trying to find ways to meet the needs of AB450 students who are good candidates for medical school. Many of the usual methods won't work for medical education. Only legal permanent residents are eligible for federally insured loans. If you can not work at the time you are a MS4 (and for at least three years, thereafter), you will not be certified for the Match. Thus you could not pay back any private loans, either.
 
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gyngyn said:
All of us in CA are trying to find ways to meet the needs of AB450 students who are good candidates for medical school. Many of the usual methods won't work for medical education. Only legal permanent residents are eligible for federally insured loans. If you can not work at the time you are a MS4 (and for at least three years, thereafter), you will not be certified for the Match. Thus you could not pay back any private loans, either.
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Forgive me, I am still very confused. Do you mean that as an AB540 student in CA I am not eligible for any federal loans for CA schools? Or all schools? I thought for students residency is based upon state of legal residence of parents assuming they claim you. I also thought that one could gain legal residence in a state as long as they resided in the state for more than 1 year with an established residence and have voter's reg/drivers license/vehicle reg/etc.

EDIT: Again, I'm really a novice on the topic so I would love some education on the subject. A majority of what you are saying does not make sense to me because I know nothing about it, let alone the correlation between it all.
 
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HappyFeet14 said:
Forgive me, I am still very confused. Do you mean that as an AB540 student in CA I am not eligible for any federal loans for CA schools? Or all schools? I thought for students residency is based upon state of legal residence of parents assuming they claim you. I also thought that one could gain legal residence in a state as long as they resided in the state for more than 1 year with an established residence and have voter's reg/drivers license/vehicle reg/etc.

EDIT: Again, I'm really a novice on the topic so I would love some education on the subject. A majority of what you are saying does not make sense to me because I know nothing about it, let alone the correlation between it all.
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Do you have permanent resident status now (a green card)?
 
gyngyn said:
Do you have permanent resident status now (a green card)?
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I do not have a green card as I am a citizen of the US. I am not an undocumented student.

My situation is I was originally a CA resident from the time I was born to age 18. I moved to Las Vegas, NV with my parents and went to school out there for a couple of years. My parents moved to Ohio due to work and I was left in NV. I decided to move back to CA to finish my degree at a CA school and increase my chances of gaining acceptance into a CA medical school. I have been a resident (permanent or not) of CA since 5/27/2013 and have worked in CA as well. I have filed a CA tax return this year, though my parents (in Ohio) have claimed me. I have a CA drivers license as of now and am going to be renewing my car's registration in CA come April.

My specific question is how does this relate to my acceptance to medical school in correlation to what you are trying to explain.
 
I am using AB540 exclusively for in-state tuition, not because I am undocumented.
 
gyngyn said:
Excellent. Then your biggest hurdle will be the MCAT. You would still be better off in OH, though, if you can claim in-state status.
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Wouldn't it be difficult for me to establish OH residency as I do not live there?
 
HappyFeet14 said:
Wouldn't it be difficult for me to establish OH residency as I do not live there?
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If you can it would be better. If you can't, then it's CA. Everyone I've ever counseled had a better outcome in OH than in CA (everything else being equal).
 
gyngyn said:
If you can it would be better. If you can't, then it's CA. Everyone I've ever counseled had a better outcome in OH than in CA (everything else being equal).
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Do you happen to know medical schools look at state residency when determining financial aid eligibility and tuition pricing? In my situation is it where I graduated from and am currently residing (CA), or where my parent's permanent residence is (OH), or where the majority of my undergraduate schooling was and where I moved from (NV)?
 
IS tuition requirements vary by state. You will need to look into each of the requirements for the states where you may be considered IS (OH, CA NV). You could then make a strategic choice on your IS status that favors admission or tuition cost.
 
gyngyn said:
IS tuition requirements vary by state. You will need to look into each of the requirements for the states where you may be considered IS (OH, CA NV). You could then make a strategic choice on your IS status that favors admission or tuition cost.
Click to expand...

Does this imply that medical schools take the state that you claim on the application to be your state of legal residence, regardless of that validity? So technically, if I wanted to be favored for acceptance into an OH school, I should claim OH residency and verify it based on my parents information, or if I wanted to be favored for a CA school I could claim CA residency and use my current residency as verification? Or is it based on your FAFSA? Or something along those lines.
 
If the state you claim as your legal residence meets the requirements set up by that state for in state tuition, you are fine. If it does not, you will be charged OOS tuition. Some schools actually favor OOS applicants because they want the OOS tuition. Probability of acceptance and tuition are two separate issues... You need to evaluate which of these states is best for each (or either) and which you could reasonably make a case for. FAFSA has no effect on any of these factors.
 
HappyFeet14 said:
Does this imply that medical schools take the state that you claim on the application to be your state of legal residence, regardless of that validity? So technically, if I wanted to be favored for acceptance into an OH school, I should claim OH residency and verify it based on my parents information, or if I wanted to be favored for a CA school I could claim CA residency and use my current residency as verification? Or is it based on your FAFSA? Or something along those lines.
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No. It differs by school, but once you are accepted, sometimes before, you have to provide documentation proving that you're an IS resident. For graduate school, you are considered independent. So while at present, you are technically an OH resident (because your parents still claim you), once you start med school, you will likely be considered a CA resident, pending their review of your documents.
 
mvenus929 said:
No. It differs by school, but once you are accepted, sometimes before, you have to provide documentation proving that you're an IS resident. For graduate school, you are considered independent. So while at present, you are technically an OH resident (because your parents still claim you), once you start med school, you will likely be considered a CA resident, pending their review of your documents.
Click to expand...

If the state you claim as your legal residence meets the requirements set up by that state for in state tuition, you are fine. If it does not, you will be charged OOS tuition. Some schools actually favor OOS applicants because they want the OOS tuition. Probability of acceptance and tuition are two separate issues... You need to evaluate which of these states is best for each (or either) and which you could reasonably make a case for. FAFSA has no effect on any of these factors.

Thank you both for clarifying this! That makes great deal more sense; so by the time I apply to medical school in June, I will be considered a CA resident as I will have lived in CA for over a year and have the proper documentation to justify that.

Thank you gyngyn for taking so much time to answer my questions 🙂
 
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