Negativity on other Pod Forums

[justincredible]

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Hi all, I was browsing the web the other day looking for other pod forums I could read up on and I found a forum on a website called Network54 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927/).

Anyways, I was randomly reading some of the posts, and alot of the posts were by current DPMs that were just so turned off by the profession and all I read was negative remark after negative remark. Alot of the posts were from current pods warning pre-pods to turn away from the profession and basically Run!

Obviously, as we are all pre-pods or pods in school working towards our dream of being great podiatric physicians, I was really turned off by what I was reading on the site. It actually scared me to read some of the stories of these DPMs that just never made it. It also broke my heart to read such horror stories of how 15-20 years in practice, some of these DPMs are barely making enough money to provide for their families or to pay off their student loans!! Some of the posts were also from disgruntled recent grads (3-5 years in practive). I'm by no means going to pod school for the money, but it was kind of disheartening to hear of some DPMs who went almost $200K in debt for student loans who will basically be paying for the next 25-30 years because of the high interest rates and their poor income. Has anyone else read up on such forums? It really put a bad feeling in my stomach.

I almost wish I had never found that forum...Regardless of the bad posters, I still want to go to pod school. 😛

 

[Makaveliforever]

Thanks for the heads up...every profession has its ups and downs...good stories and bad stories. Bottom line, the economy is really bad right now and many things are beginning to cost more. One thing that is on the rise and always will be on the rise is the medical field. Anything you do in the medical field will make you at least a decent living. And having to pay back 200,000 in 15-20 years is like $800-1000 a month. As a resident you will make at least 35-40,000 and I would have to think that when you finish you will make at least 60+ a year. Anyhow, paying back $1000 a month should not really be that big of a challenge if you make 12-1500 a week....To be frank, those people are just being extreme... forget them, do your best and you will be successful and very fufilled.👍

 

[jonwill]

Hi all, I was browsing the web the other day looking for other pod forums I could read up on and I found a forum on a website called Network54 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927/).

Anyways, I was randomly reading some of the posts, and alot of the posts were by current DPMs that were just so turned off by the profession and all I read was negative remark after negative remark. Alot of the posts were from current pods warning pre-pods to turn away from the profession and basically Run!

Obviously, as we are all pre-pods or pods in school working towards our dream of being great podiatric physicians, I was really turned off by what I was reading on the site. It actually scared me to read some of the stories of these DPMs that just never made it. It also broke my heart to read such horror stories of how 15-20 years in practice, some of these DPMs are barely making enough money to provide for their families or to pay off their student loans!! Some of the posts were also from disgruntled recent grads (3-5 years in practive). I'm by no means going to pod school for the money, but it was kind of disheartening to hear of some DPMs who went almost $200K in debt for student loans who will basically be paying for the next 25-30 years because of the high interest rates and their poor income. Has anyone else read up on such forums? It really put a bad feeling in my stomach.

I almost wish I had never found that forum...Regardless of the bad posters, I still want to go to pod school. 😛

You'll find posts on SDN on this very topic. Network54 is notorious. It's basically the same 4-5 failures whining and crying. I've commented various times on this but to sum it up, don't take advice from the few failures. Take advice from the THOUSANDS of pods that succeed.
Podiatry today is not the same as it was 20 years ago. Though the profession does share some of the blame, I'm sure these guys made some very poor decisions as well. Below is a good thread.

And for the record, I have NEVER met a pod who wasn't doing very well.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=369238&highlight=Network54

 

[NatCh]

Student loans are massive, for sure, but it's the price of admission if you don't already have the money to pay for school.

The first 3-5 years are difficult, but once you build momentum life is great. I think a part of what makes new practitioners disgruntled is the fact that most decide to "get a job" as an Associate. I have NEVER met someone in practice who stuck with the first practice for whom they worked. Even if you're making $150K plus benefits (a small minority -- I think most Associates make under $100K total), you're still working for The Man.

You quickly make a mental calculation that you're generating for the practice $400K per year working five days per week using your PM&S-36 skills, yet you only see a small part of that. Where'd the other $250K+ go? You also get stuck with house calls, nursing homes, health fairs etc. and don't have any say in how your practice develops. You want to Partner so you can get control of your life but now they want $500K to buy-in. Ouch. Next thing you know you're packing up the family and moving out of town since you signed a Covenant Not To Compete. Ooof.

To amend jonwill's statement, "I have never met a podiatrist (who owned his own practice) who wasn't doing well." Additionally, I have also never met a practice owner who worked five days per week. Once you get past the initial hump, you can make a very comfortable living.

I cannot think of any other profession I'd rather do (other than maybe movie star or race car driver). Do podiatry because you enjoy it; the money will come!

 

[Feli]

...To amend jonwill's statement, "I have never met a podiatrist (who owned his own practice) who wasn't doing well." Additionally, I have also never met a practice owner who worked five days per week. Once you get past the initial hump, you can make a very comfortable living...

When did you feel that you had a good enough clinical knowledge base to start a solo practice? Right out of residency? A few years out? Will one ever feel like they can handle any foot/ankle case?

The financial aspect of starting a new practice or buying into or buying out an existing one doesn't intimidate me as much as the possibility that, as a young practitioner, I may run into cases which stump me due to lack of experience (even if I do a good PMS-36 +/- fellowship). It just seems to me that, in a smallish town or suberb, if a private practice DPM doesn't know all of the foot and ankle answers, who will? In a big city or hospital setting, you can consult your partners, a nearby DPM friend, your residency director, other relevant specialties (infectious dz, plastics, vascular sx, derm, radiology, etc)... but didn't you feel a bit like you were on a medical knowledge island of sorts early on? Or are you in a big city or group practice where you don't really have those problems? 😀

 

[NatCh]

When did you feel that you had a good enough clinical knowledge base to start a solo practice? Right out of residency? A few years out? Will one ever feel like they can handle any foot/ankle case?

The financial aspect of starting a new practice or buying into or buying out an existing one doesn't intimidate me as much as the possibility that, as a young practitioner, I may run into cases which stump me due to lack of experience (even if I do a good PMS-36 +/- fellowship). It just seems to me that, in a smallish town or suberb, if a private practice DPM doesn't know all of the foot and ankle answers, who will? In a big city or hospital setting, you can consult your partners, residency director, other specialties, etc, but didn't you feel a bit like you were on a medical knowledge island of sorts early on?

Excellent question. Coming out of Residency you know what you are supposed to do but might have trouble knowing how to go about getting it accomplished. All of you who are about to finish 2 and 3 year Residency will be better trained than nearly all of those before you. You have the tools! You have a very large toolbox too! I think it would be very challenging to try to open a practice immediately out of training. 3, 5, or 10 year lease? Triple net? FUTA? What???

You almost need someone who has been in practice to hold your hand for a few years, otherwise you' be stumbling a lot. The nice thing now is that one can access thousands of other practicing podiatrists online to get next-day answers. I use: http://www.podiatrym.com/pmnewsissues.cfm

Are you stumped by a case? Post your question! You'll get emails and messageboard replies from all over the place. You will also eventually learn of other docs in the region who are good at certain procedures, so in a pinch you can arrange for that patient to go see that doc. Chances are though, that you current Residents will know everything you need procedurally, but might need to learn some peri-operative "pearls" that come from years in practice. If you open up way in the boonies and are the last stop for patients, you will probably be able to come up with something as a treatment. It seems that patients in remote rural areas are okay with letting a doctor do his best. They know they live a long way from big medical centers.

FYI, I'm not solo. I have two Partners. We each have our strengths and we bounce stuff off of each other all the time. In a pinch we know others in the state to whom we can turn. Doctors send patients to others for a second opinion all of the time. It's just business as usual. The trick is learning how to present it to the patient so you don't come off looking like a dope.

Edit: I live in a small city of ~75,000 population. There are numerous medical specialists in all branches here to whom we can send patients. There is a Level 1 hospital. There are six podiatrists and four F&A Orthopods in town. We all make a good living.

 

[justincredible]

Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. I'm really glad I have SDN as a fantastic resource for my podiatry queries. Just judging from the replies I got to my original post in comparison to some of the childish posts I was reading on that Network54 forum, my worries are gone.

Natch, how long have you been a partner? Would you consider yourself really business savvy? I ask because I dont know too much about business (other than supply and demand 😀) and wonder if it is something that comes naturally once in practice or if you need more than the basic intuitive business sense. Also, after residency I'd love to come back to California to practice but I hear alot of pods struggle out here due to high saturation. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for the posts everyone. My spirits are lifted. 🙂

 

[jonwill]

To amend jonwill's statement, "I have never met a podiatrist (who owned his own practice) who wasn't doing well."

That is not necessarily true. I have met a TON of pods that work for hospitals, multispecialty, and ortho groups that are extremely happy and well compensated. Quite a few pods will never own their own practice.

As far as the first few years being difficult, I guess it depends on what you do. If you're starting your own practice from scratch, I imagine it would be extremely difficult. The days of old pods abusing new pods coming out of residency is coming to an end though. There are plenty of groups (podiatry, ortho, and multispecialty) that are willing to start pods newly out of residency in the low to mid 100 range because, as you said, we are going to produce quite a bit of money for the group. Out of all of my buddies, none have signed on to anything and made less than 6 figures their first year out. The exception being those that started their own practices.

I have no aspirations of owning my own practice. I plan on starting with an ortho or multispecialty group and go from there. To each his own.

 

[NatCh]

That is not necessarily true. I have met a TON of pods that work for hospitals, multispecialty, and ortho groups that are extremely happy and well compensated. Quite a few pods will never own their own practice.

As far as the first few years being difficult, I guess it depends on what you do. If you're starting your own practice from scratch, I imagine it would be extremely difficult. The days of old pods abusing new pods coming out of residency is coming to an end though. There are plenty of groups (podiatry, ortho, and multispecialty) that are willing to start pods newly out of residency in the low to mid 100 range because, as you said, we are going to produce quite a bit of money for the group. Out of all of my buddies, none have signed on to anything and made less than 6 figures their first year out. The exception being those that started their own practices.

I have no aspirations of owning my own practice. I plan on starting with an ortho or multispecialty group and go from there. To each his own.

I don't think we are contradicting each other. One can be happy working for another. Happiness is more an internal function than anything, wouldn't you agree?

BTW, "owning your own practice" does not necessarily mean one is in a solo practice. Even within large, multispecialty groups the Partners are owners of their own practice. They are shareholders rather than employees. Many large groups function as Limited Liability Corporations (LLC's) and within it each partner is a Private Corporation (PC) or S-Corp entity.

So if you join an Ortho or Multispecialty group, if you buy-in and become Partner at some point you will then become an owner. Your income should take a huge leap at that point.

 

[NatCh]

Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. I'm really glad I have SDN as a fantastic resource for my podiatry queries. Just judging from the replies I got to my original post in comparison to some of the childish posts I was reading on that Network54 forum, my worries are gone.

Natch, how long have you been a partner? Would you consider yourself really business savvy? I ask because I dont know too much about business (other than supply and demand 😀) and wonder if it is something that comes naturally once in practice or if you need more than the basic intuitive business sense. Also, after residency I'd love to come back to California to practice but I hear alot of pods struggle out here due to high saturation. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for the posts everyone. My spirits are lifted. 🙂

As long as you enjoy taking care of feet, I think you picked the right profession. I find it awesome. I look forward to going to work both days per week, and the satisfaction goes far deeper than the income.

My history is this:
- CPMS graduate class of 1998 (mid-pack)
- SAVAHCS (Tucson VA) Residency 1998-2000 (did well)
- Sole Proprietor in a Pod practice management group 2000-2002 (slow)
- employed Associate in a Pod group 2002-2005 (bogus)
- Partner in a different Pod group 2005-present (sweet!)

I did not know jack squat about business when I started. I still do not feel as if I know much, but I pick things up along the way pretty quickly. My Partners and I consult with one another when one of us comes up with a business idea. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, oh well. Live and learn. Part of the fun of this setup is that we can play Businessman and try out whatever we want. I think we all are willing to take a risk and experiment with new ideas, so we don't stagnate too much.

The nice thing if you join a big group is that you will probably employ a CEO to run the show for you. He or she should know what to do with less trial and error, since he or she has formal business training. The downside is he or she commands a grand salary that you pay for. Either way can make or lose you a lot of money.

As far as saturation goes, supposedly a population of 20,000 can support one foot doctor. My city of 75,000 has six podiatrists and four F&A Orthopods! We are oversturated! Every podiatrist in town though makes more than average income. Some make MUCH more. If you can't capture more patients, then you have to figure out how to make/keep more income from those you do see. You have to be creative and clever, and provide something that the others don't. You have to make yourself valuable to patients in some way. If you become known for being the one to go to for [fill-in-the-blank], then you will get a lot of business. What can you do better than everyone else? Market that.

Nat

p.s., You all should be really excited. Being in practice is a hoot! It really is wonderful.

 

[justincredible]

p.s., You all should be really excited. Being in practice is a hoot! It really is wonderful.

Thanks for the encouraging words Natch. I see your success as really inspiring. I have no doubt in my mind I will love practicing. I really cant wait to begin this leg of my education, as well as this new chapter of my life! I wonder what went wrong for all those disgruntled pods on that other forum. Those were maybe the ones that really had no interest in podiatry and perhaps used it as a backup for MD/DO school or maybe were only in it for the money. It seems that doctors of any kind that went into the profession for the wrong reasons (perhaps for the money or because it was their parents dream and not theirs) are never happy. Maybe those bitter DPMs I was hearing from on that forum were some of them.

 

[bdaddyjolley]

Thanks for the heads up...every profession has its ups and downs...good stories and bad stories. Bottom line, the economy is really bad right now and many things are beginning to cost more. One thing that is on the rise and always will be on the rise is the medical field. Anything you do in the medical field will make you at least a decent living. And having to pay back 200,000 in 15-20 years is like $800-1000 a month. As a resident you will make at least 35-40,000 and I would have to think that when you finish you will make at least 60+ a year. Anyhow, paying back $1000 a month should not really be that big of a challenge if you make 12-1500 a week....To be frank, those people are just being extreme... forget them, do your best and you will be successful and very fufilled.👍

I think you need to do your calculations with an interest rate. It is true that $200000 over 20 years is about $833 per month with no interest rate and about $1111 per month with no interest at 15 years. However if you put on the interest rate right now for student loans which is about 6.75 % or so $200000 over 20 years = about $1520 per month and $200000 over 15 years is about $1769 a month which are both substantiantially more than you estimated. Now the interest rate will probably be different when we start paying the loans back but my point is this, add a mortage for a house on top of that plus over living expenses, car, insurence, more if you have a family etc. Your monthly bills can become quite high and can fill up you salary quickly especially if you are bad with money. Also, the more you make the more taxes you pay too. The only reason I bring this up is to not to scare or discourage people but to say don't underestimate the student loan burden later, just be prepared and know what you are getting into.

 

[jonwill]

I don't think we are contradicting each other. One can be happy working for another. Happiness is more an internal function than anything, wouldn't you agree?

BTW, "owning your own practice" does not necessarily mean one is in a solo practice. Even within large, multispecialty groups the Partners are owners of their own practice. They are shareholders rather than employees. Many large groups function as Limited Liability Corporations (LLC's) and within it each partner is a Private Corporation (PC) or S-Corp entity.

So if you join an Ortho or Multispecialty group, if you buy-in and become Partner at some point you will then become an owner. Your income should take a huge leap at that point.

OK, I understand what you are saying now. Yea, regardless of where you end up, partnership is where it's at. I also noticed that you're a grad of the Tucson program. I have a good buddy who is a first year there.

 

[NatCh]

OK, I understand what you are saying now. Yea, regardless of where you end up, partnership is where it's at. I also noticed that you're a grad of the Tucson program. I have a good buddy who is a first year there.

Ask your friend to tell Dr. Nixon "Nat says 'Hi.'"

 

[SoCalBetty]

Anyways, I was randomly reading some of the posts, and alot of the posts were by current DPMs that were just so turned off by the profession and all I read was negative remark after negative remark. Alot of the posts were from current pods warning pre-pods to turn away from the profession and basically Run!

😛

Chin up justincredible...podiatry is one of the top 25 professions in the country
http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/2007/06/05/is-your-job-one-of-the-top-25/

👍

Don't let a few grumpies get you down ...they may in fact be the stereotypical frustrated med school rejects that many of us get accused of being
And be relieved that Paris Hilton got sent back to the slammer too😴

 

[justincredible]

Chin up justincredible...podiatry is one of the top 25 professions in the country
http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/2007/06/05/is-your-job-one-of-the-top-25/

👍

Don't let a few grumpies get you down ...they may in fact be the stereotypical frustrated med school rejects that many of us get accused of being
And be relieved that Paris Hilton got sent back to the slammer too😴

Thanks SoCalBetty, After reading some of the nice posts here on SDN as well as the thread jonwill linked above, my worries are no more. I've totally disregarded everything I read on that forum. I'm actually more excited than ever about starting school in a few short weeks!!! Despite the bad-mouthers out there, the majority of pods in school and in practice are so well versed in what they are doing and how they are representing the profession. Especially some of the seniors of the SDN pod community. They never fail to answer my questions and alleviate any worries I might have. I'm really hyped up to get started already!!!

 

[SoCalBetty]

Thanks SoCalBetty, After reading some of the nice posts here on SDN as well as the thread jonwill linked above, my worries are no more. I'm really hyped up to get started already!!!

I'm glad to hear it...best of luck in Chicago