Neil DeGrasse Tyson calls doctors stupid based on anectdotes

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xffan624 said:
Protests that some guy calls doctors stupid. Misspells anecdote in title. Strong work
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Who cares about the spelling here.

What bothers me is this idea that when doctors give you a diagnosis, they have every last atom of data necessary to reach that conclusion. Following guidelines that are made because of the actual unpredictability of some cancers somehow translates to stupidity.
 
This was posted before...the logic failure at the end of the video still annoys me:

"I've failed more premed students than prelaw."

No, really? Because the volume of prelaw students coming through your physics course is the same as premed students coming through, right?

Sounds like an "idiot" physicist in the audience, perhaps?

Also, the speaker fails to realize that often those survival estimates are derived off of statistical analysis. Not the doc feeling the patients forehead, tasting a sip of urine, and pulling a number of months to live out of thin air.
 
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This video has already been posted before on Pre-Allo,
 
BurghStudent said:
Who cares about the spelling here.

What bothers me is this idea that when doctors give you a diagnosis, they have every last atom of data necessary to reach that conclusion. Following guidelines that are made because of the actual unpredictability of some cancers somehow translates to stupidity.
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I didn't even watch the video and I'm certainly not defending whatever he said. I couldn't care less what this guy thinks about my future profession.

If one is going to protest that one is not stupid, it behooves that person to spell words correctly or be at risk for not being taken seriously.
 
xffan624 said:
I didn't even watch the video and I'm certainly not defending whatever he said. I couldn't care less what this guy thinks about my future profession.

If one is going to protest that one is not stupid, it behooves that person to spell words correctly or be at risk for not being taken seriously.
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Fair enough.
 
He's right though. The moment you begin to say that your personal experience is more important than evidence is the moment you cease being data-driven.
 
notbobtrustme said:
He's right though. The moment you begin to say that your personal experience is more important than evidence is the moment you cease being data-driven.
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Data has its own pitfalls. The studied population may not match your patient's demographics. And it's nice if a treatment helps 70% of patients but it's useless if it doesn't work for your patients. The end points of a study may not match your goals or it may be selectively reported. Personal experience matters a lot. Data and protocols are for people who don't know how to think.
 
Frazier said:
"I've failed more premed students than prelaw."

No, really? Because the volume of prelaw students coming through your physics course is the same as premed students coming through, right?
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Even worse is the whole notion of judging doctors by how well people who never became doctors did in his class.
 
Since when did Neil Degrasse Tyson become the glorified supreme intergalactic president on all things science? I can liken this to how Jesse James and Al Sharpton jump on any race issue. This guy is saying we are uncertain about cancer diagnoses and prognosis... Let me remind you this guy works in a subject field that is markedly unknown and constantly changing, working on a subject matter that hinges on a scale humans cannot even comprehend. Yes Mr. Tyson, please tell be more hypocritical.
 
Psai said:
Data has its own pitfalls. The studied population may not match your patient's demographics. And it's nice if a treatment helps 70% of patients but it's useless if it doesn't work for your patients. The end points of a study may not match your goals or it may be selectively reported. Personal experience matters a lot. Data and protocols are for people who don't know how to think.
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This x1000. It's easy for people in basic science labs to be preachy about data when they're not actually dealing with the messiness and grey areas of clinical medicine.
 
3 idiot doctors? Oh yeah I forgot that if something doesn't go exactly how the doctor said it was supposed to go given his years of experience and expertise, that must mean the doctor is an idiot and not that things don't always happen exactly how they're supposed to happen
 
That's why i will not be quoting survival rates to terminal ill patients. It is not good policy imo.
 
Frazier said:
This was posted before...the logic failure at the end of the video still annoys me:

"I've failed more premed students than prelaw."

No, really? Because the volume of prelaw students coming through your physics course is the same as premed students coming through, right?

Sounds like an "idiot" physicist in the audience, perhaps?

Also, the speaker fails to realize that often those survival estimates are derived off of statistical analysis. Not the doc feeling the patients forehead, tasting a sip of urine, and pulling a number of months to live out of thin air.
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Not to mention that he doesn't make the distinction between premedical and medical. Lots of college students want to be doctors (maybe this is what he's really on about). Not everyone makes it. And I bet the success rate for premeds failing intro physics is very low. Connect the dots, Neil.

I just lost a lot of respect for NDT. Forgive me, pluto! You were always the one for me.
 
This misconception is easy to fix. Since @Robotman is undisputedly "the smartest person most people meet," we should all chip in and send him as a representative on a day visit with Mr. Tyson. I am sure Mr. Tyson will issue a public apology after being impressed by @Robotman.
 
BurghStudent said:
Who cares about the spelling here.

What bothers me is this idea that when doctors give you a diagnosis, they have every last atom of data necessary to reach that conclusion. Following guidelines that are made because of the actual unpredictability of some cancers somehow translates to stupidity.
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Do you really think the average MD is making diagnoses based on EBM rather than clinical experience? Not saying I agree with Tyson, but most docs aren't double checking the newest literature every time they see a patient.
 
seminoma said:
Do you really think the average MD is making diagnoses based on EBM rather than clinical experience? Not saying I agree with Tyson, but most docs aren't double checking the newest literature every time they see a patient.
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You're probably right. I guess I'm just not a NDT fanboy. He's overbearing.
 
SXCoronado said:
He's assuming undergrad physics performance by pre meds is representative of their diagnostic skills as doctors... um.. ok... hahahaha whatever, Neil. You keep being angry about everything.
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Seriously. Oops, I though F=m/a, not m*a. I'll never understand biochemistry.
 
I'm not sure how much I trust NDT.

75072-Neil-deGrasse-Tyson-4chan-fals-4Mw7.jpeg
 
I'm probably going to be the only one with this opinion, but I'm still a NDT fan. Despite the absurdity/idiocy of the clip (and the fact that it feels personal), his advocacy for science is unparalleled, and he has done a hell of a job exciting kids and laypeople about science. Also Cosmos is awesome.
 
So if a doctor is incorrect about a prognosis that has been derived from the best possible data available and corroborated by his peers, it means they are all "idiot doctors"? Right... or maybe it just means that sometimes the course of a disease might be difficult to predict? It's funny because the point he is trying to make has nothing to do with doctors, and is wholly about religion being stupid, which I entirely agree with. Unfortunately, in order to make his point he made quite a few needlessly patronizing comments about doctors in an attempt to portray them as unintelligent so that his argument about the likelihood of them being wrong about a prognosis would seem more compelling. He could have just explained that a lot of times diseases are not entirely predictable and he would have made the same point about the non-sense of religion just as effectively without making himself look ignorant about the training and capacity of physicians, which actually weakened his otherwise sound argument about religion.

niblet said:
Even worse is the whole notion of judging doctors by how well people who never became doctors did in his class.
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Was about to post this exact thing.

"I've failed more premed students than law students"

"Yeah its astonishing who ends up being our doctors"

wtf? If a pre-med failed physics 101, rest assured they did not become a doctor. The lack of a logical thought process seen in this video is what's astonishing.
 
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sidefx said:
So if a doctor is incorrect about a prognosis that has been derived from the best possible data available and corroborated by his peers, it means they are all "idiot doctors"? Right... or maybe it just means that sometimes the course of a disease might be difficult to predict? It's funny because the point he is trying to make has nothing to do with doctors, and is wholly about religion being stupid, which I entirely agree with. Unfortunately, in order to make his point he made quite a few needlessly patronizing comments about doctors in an attempt to portray them as unintelligent so that his argument about the likelihood of them being wrong about a prognosis would seem more compelling. He could have just explained that a lot of times diseases are not entirely predictable and he would have made the same point about the non-sense of religion just as effectively without making himself look ignorant about the training and capacity of physicians, which actually weakened his otherwise sound argument about religion.



Was about to post this exact thing.

"I've failed more premed students than law students"

"Yeah its astonishing who ends up being our doctors"

wtf? If a pre-med failed physics 101, rest assured they did not become a doctor. The lack of a logical thought process seen in this video is what's astonishing.
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I'm all for advocating for more kids to pursue careers in the sciences, but I would count -physician- among those careers. I've always found him to be a little overbearing, especially in in his criticisms of religion, but his lack of humility and inter-professional respect in this clip is disgraceful. It's almost like I got to see him really drunk and now I know how he really feels: Physics >>>>> all other careers.
 
Most academic types don't respect doctors, and they all have an anecdote like this. But he makes a good point re: the shaky, unreliable and unscientific nature of much of medicine.
 
I looked at a few of his youtube stuff before to see what the hype is about; he just talks to appeal to a subset people. He's basically an entertainer. He's not the authority of science, atheism, or even physics.
 
Señor S said:
Most academic types don't respect doctors, and they all have an anecdote like this. But he makes a good point re: the shaky, unreliable and unscientific nature of much of medicine.
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Medicine is not basic science. If it was, there would be no malpractice. Real medicine is not clear cut, it's risk vs. benefit, etc.
 
I wonder what Robotman's new account name will be. Se you soon. Sinombre will probably identify him sooner or later.
 
DermViser said:
Medicine is not basic science. If it was, there would be no malpractice. Real medicine is not clear cut, it's risk vs. benefit, etc.
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They also have to understand, relatively, we know very little about how the human body works. Sometimes there are just miracles. Sometimes, there are the one-in-a-million occurances, and sometimes the body works in ways of which we are still unaware. It's very hard to always be right.
 
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sinombre said:
I'm probably going to be the only one with this opinion, but I'm still a NDT fan. Despite the absurdity/idiocy of the clip (and the fact that it feels personal), his advocacy for science is unparalleled, and he has done a hell of a job exciting kids and laypeople about science. Also Cosmos is awesome.
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Yeah. I disagree with him on a lot of things, and he pisses me off all the time. But he is truly a genious, and like you said, his enthusiasm for science is unparalleled. He's an excellent advocate for it. It's wonderful when kids are fascinated by science, and I'm sure he really encourages them to learn more.
 
RJGOP said:
Yeah. I disagree with him on a lot of things, and he pisses me off all the time. But he is truly a genious, and like you said, his enthusiasm for science is unparalleled. He's an excellent advocate for it. It's wonderful when kids are fascinated by science, and I'm sure he really encourages them to learn more.
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Your rationality and civility towards those with differing opinions has no place on the internet, sir.
 
He obviously never took a stats class. Some patients will be on either end of the curve regarding prognosis. THATS basic science.

Also since when did "pre-med" students take physics 101.
 
Looks like someone couldn't get into medical school...Clinical medicine is more of an art than a science. That's why I would rather be under the care of a seasoned clinical doctor than a research scientist who does clinic once a week.
 
fancymylotus said:
The contents of this thread are SEVERELY off topic for this forum. Not Allo related. That's what the cesspool known as the Wolfs Den is for.

Closing. For reasons.
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The Wolfs Den no longer exists. Apparently you have been blinded by your pink shoes and haven't noticed.
 
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