Neuro post-docs

[NP Blues]

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Hey folks,

I am currently on internship, and plan on applying for the APPCN match in a few months. It's been frustrating so far- trying to get up-to-date information, trying to figure out whether to apply to non-match sites, etc.

A big thing for me is that I want to head back to the northeast (roughly from DC to Boston?), and there are only so many sites in that area, and most of them only accept one fellow. It's frustrating, because I want to give myself as many opportunities as I can, but I also want to start putting down roots and making professional connections in an area where I'd want to stay long-term.

Also frustrating is that some sites (Boston Childrens, Children's National in DC, etc.) have the reputation of working their postdocs to death. While I'm not opposed to working hard, and clearly I love this type of work, I don't want to be expected to put in 60 hours a week for the next two years.

How does everyone else reconcile these types of issues? Is it impossible to find a postdoc that fits your personality and isn't in a terrible location? I'm just getting demoralized, and I don't want my one-year of a long distance relationship to turn into three. 🙁

 

[erg923]

Eh, I think that in neuropsych (unless you are in a strict VA setting) its pretty widespread and expected that you work quite a bit over 40 hours/week during your post-doc. Many are in medical centers/settings and so the need is heavy and turn around can be demanded quickly on occasion.

 

[PsyDr]

" ...I don't want to be expected to put in 60 hours a week for the next two years."

🤣

 

[WisNeuro]

Unfortunately, the more you restrict yourself geographically, the more you have to accept less control of thing like length of workweek and quality of didactics/clinical training.

 

[NP Blues]

" ...I don't want to be expected to put in 60 hours a week for the next two years."

🤣

Oh, please. Spare me.

I'm at a good internship site; I'm not against working hard. I have worked hard to get where I am. I just don't want every day of my life to be a 12-hour workday... I want to have a life, too. If you think that's being unreasonable, then I feel bad for you.

 

[erg923]

Oh, please. Spare me.

I'm at a good internship site; I'm not against working hard. I have worked hard to get where I am. I just don't want every day of my life to be a 12-hour workday... I want to have a life, too. If you think that's being unreasonable, then I feel bad for you.

He's a neuropsychologist who works like 80 hours a week. Even he admits that its due to an underlying psych issue. 😉

However, the take home message doesn't change. Its generally par for the course during post-doc at MOST (not all) places. Afterward, its up to you. I avoided this problem by not doing a post-doc in neuropsychology...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Eh, I think that in neuropsych (unless you are in a strict VA setting) its pretty widespread and expected that you work quite a bit over 40 hours/week during your post-doc. Many are in medical centers/settings and so the need is heavy and turn around can be demanded quickly on occasion.

Even in a VA setting I have heard that 40hrs/wk is not realistic once you account for didactics, readings, time spent writing reports, etc. In the academic medical setting I'd expect to see at least 60hr work weeks as the norm. On average I put in 65-70hrs /wks and at times it was completely overwhelming. I know it probably sounds like, "In my day we walked uphill both ways to our fellowships, in the show, with no shoes!!" but I feel much better prepared to handle the "real world" workload that comes with the typical neuropsych position. *insert various types of bias here*

 

[AcronymAllergy]

However, the take home message doesn't change. Its generally par for the course during post-doc at MOST (not all) places. Afterward, its up to you. I avoided this problem by not doing a post-doc in neuropsychology...

Pretty much, yep. I'm very fortunate to be at a site that has a humane postdoc schedule. However, even then, I'd say I probably average 45-50 hours/week (which by neuropsych standards is a dream) when factoring in time spent on "extracurricular" activities like research and further reading.

It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect a 40-50 rather than 50-60 hour work week, no. However, as the other posters have mentioned, if you're going to remove geographic flexibility, then you're likely going to take a hit in one or more of the following areas: pay, work schedule, and training opportunities. This could be particularly true in a high-demand area such as the northeast where many of the sites choose not to participate in the match.

 

[neuronic]

Your post-doc experience can be an enjoyable experience both personally and professional, so do not despair. Due to the limited number of fellows, it is hard to know what to expect for sure before you actually get there. I have known people who say they worked 60 hrs a week at Boston VA, and those who had the same position and did 45. Those people had different styles, but in the end the work got done and both got good recs and jobs after. Suffice it to say, a lot of the time above 40 you put in will depend on time management (good) and perfectionist qualities (not so good when only the summary sections of our reports get read).

 

[Rivi]

" ...I don't want to be expected to put in 60 hours a week for the next two years."

🤣

I know, what a slacker. Working 60+ hours a week while being paid 45k a year for 2-years in your 30s is an awesome way to go through life.

 

[IT514]

I had similar reservations and geographic limitations applying last year. I considered some other types of fellowships (gero), or just taking a job. Ultimately I chose to take a neuro offer outside of the match at a really great site. I had reservations about the workload and hours, but was able to be pretty open about my expectations for a fellowship, and did a pretty thorough interview myself of each site and had two questions in particular that seemed to discriminate well between those who I could see myself working well under and those I couldn't (PSYDR would have failed miserably, and to be fair I probably would have failed whatever his rubric is for a good prospective fellow).

In my first three months or so I've put in maybe one 60 hour week closer to the beginning just to get my feet under me. The rest have been 40-50. I tend to work more efficiently than others and seem to have a pretty solid neuro background compared to others, so perhaps that explains some of it. I've heard that past fellows have taken longer to write reports largely due to perfectionist tendencies and perhaps not knowing what is important and what is not important to include in a report or consult note. When I take up a research project here in the near future, sure, that'll bump up my hours a bit, but it seems enjoyable enough and my supervisors are pretty flexible.

Not sure what you can take from this. Sites should be posting more and more in the next few weeks. And if all else fails, there have been some fantastic sites that get funding after the match and pop up outside of the typical application timeline. There are also a few lesser known private-practice type of sites that, while maybe not ideal, are led by top-notch boarded neuropsychologists and could have some great long-term potential if you're looking to settle down.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I had similar reservations and geographic limitations applying last year. I considered some other types of fellowships (gero), or just taking a job. Ultimately I chose to take a neuro offer outside of the match at a really great site. I had reservations about the workload and hours, but was able to be pretty open about my expectations for a fellowship, and did a pretty thorough interview myself of each site and had two questions in particular that seemed to discriminate well between those who I could see myself working well under and those I couldn't (PSYDR would have failed miserably, and to be fair I probably would have failed whatever his rubric is for a good prospective fellow).

In my first three months or so I've put in maybe one 60 hour week closer to the beginning just to get my feet under me. The rest have been 40-50. I tend to work more efficiently than others and seem to have a pretty solid neuro background compared to others, so perhaps that explains some of it. I've heard that past fellows have taken longer to write reports largely due to perfectionist tendencies and perhaps not knowing what is important and what is not important to include in a report or consult note. When I take up a research project here in the near future, sure, that'll bump up my hours a bit, but it seems enjoyable enough and my supervisors are pretty flexible.

Not sure what you can take from this. Sites should be posting more and more in the next few weeks. And if all else fails, there have been some fantastic sites that get funding after the match and pop up outside of the typical application timeline. There are also a few lesser known private-practice type of sites that, while maybe not ideal, are led by top-notch boarded neuropsychologists and could have some great long-term potential if you're looking to settle down.

This is an important point to keep in mind--if folks are regularly going into the 50-60+ hour range, is it because that's what their clinical duties require, or is it because that includes work they've taken on themselves such as research? Could be a good question to ask existing post-docs and/or faculty there.

In the case of my fellowship, my required responsibilities are nearly always very easily managed in 45 hours/week or less. Time spent over that is therefore usually personally-driven (e.g., working on manuscripts, helping with an interesting program development project, spending extra time reading up on things that interest me).

As with IT514, though, I had a fairly strong background in neuro during grad school and on internship. Conversely, if someone is having to play "catch up" on some of the more foundational things (e.g., neuroanatomy), it's going to result in longer hours and later nights.

I can say that when I interviewed, though, sites (at least seemed) to be very straightforward about their typical workload. Some said it was quite manageable, and others weren't shy to describe it as intense.

 

[NP Blues]

I had similar reservations and geographic limitations applying last year. I considered some other types of fellowships (gero), or just taking a job. Ultimately I chose to take a neuro offer outside of the match at a really great site. I had reservations about the workload and hours, but was able to be pretty open about my expectations for a fellowship, and did a pretty thorough interview myself of each site and had two questions in particular that seemed to discriminate well between those who I could see myself working well under and those I couldn't (PSYDR would have failed miserably, and to be fair I probably would have failed whatever his rubric is for a good prospective fellow).

In my first three months or so I've put in maybe one 60 hour week closer to the beginning just to get my feet under me. The rest have been 40-50. I tend to work more efficiently than others and seem to have a pretty solid neuro background compared to others, so perhaps that explains some of it. I've heard that past fellows have taken longer to write reports largely due to perfectionist tendencies and perhaps not knowing what is important and what is not important to include in a report or consult note. When I take up a research project here in the near future, sure, that'll bump up my hours a bit, but it seems enjoyable enough and my supervisors are pretty flexible.

Thanks (to you and to others)... responses have been really helpful so far. 🙂. It sounds like what you have is the kind of thing I'm looking for. Sure, occasionally you might have the 12-13 hour day or the 60 hour week, but that is not necessarily the norm. Personally, I feel that the work/life balance is really important, and I think I'll be happiest at a site that shares a similar philosophy. I totally understand wanting to put in more time for side projects (either because it's of particular interest, or an area of professional growth, or just to make yourself look better for jobs later on), or even putting in additional time studying for the EPPP. Like I said, I'm not against working hard or even long hours, I just don't want to hate my life for the next two years.

I'm glad a lot of sites seem to be upfront about their expectations... takes some of the edge off of this process. 🙂.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm glad a lot of sites seem to be upfront about their expectations... takes some of the edge off of this process. 🙂.

FWIW...I also found this to be true. Sites want ppl who mirror their needs or it will be a long two yrs for all involved.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

This might be slightly off topic, but if you go and look at PSYDR's posts you will see that he works many more hours than that...for the fun of it.😀

 

[PsyDr]

Writing an unfunded paper for fun tonight!

 

[erg923]

Did you observe that no one responded to this statement until, lets see...845 Sunday morning? Why might that be? Have you learned nothing? lol

 

[serotonin]

you can make it work. I had the exact geographic idea as you for neuro post-doc- I applied to sites from massachusetts to baltimore (but also included chicago cuz it was another cool city & has some good programs).

I applied to 15 spots, interviewed at all of them, and worked really hard to seem like a good human being they would WANT at their spot. And I'm not a research superstar or anything. Got a few offers before the match, took the one that made the most sense with my personality & wants. It's working out better than I could've hoped for- totally reasonable hours (~45 hours/wk, less if I feel like working more efficiently) with a kickass level of rigor & AWESOME supervisors & opportunities.

Yes, it's possible, so go for it!

 

[NP Blues]

you can make it work. I had the exact geographic idea as you for neuro post-doc- I applied to sites from massachusetts to baltimore (but also included chicago cuz it was another cool city & has some good programs).

I applied to 15 spots, interviewed at all of them, and worked really hard to seem like a good human being they would WANT at their spot. And I'm not a research superstar or anything. Got a few offers before the match, took the one that made the most sense with my personality & wants. It's working out better than I could've hoped for- totally reasonable hours (~45 hours/wk, less if I feel like working more efficiently) with a kickass level of rigor & AWESOME supervisors & opportunities.

Yes, it's possible, so go for it!

Thanks! I'm glad there's some hope. 🙂.

What kinds of questions would you all recommend I ask on interviews, to help determine the expected workload or their philosophy on work/life balance? I'm trying to brainstorm appropriate ways of asking questions that don't make me sound lazy. 🙂.

 

[serotonin]

hey NP blues,

Here are some that I think would be appropriate to ask- but don't ask them all at once! They may tell you all this info unsolicited, which would be the preferable way for you to find this out 🙂

1. How many patients will you be you be seeing each week? Inpatient vs. outpatient? (inpatients tend to get less testing/have shorter reports). A non-lazy way of asking this may simply be, "what is the patient (vet/client/insert their terminology here) flow like each week?"

2. For how many of those will you be doing all the testing? (as opposed to just the interview and having a psychometrist or student do most of the testing for you). You can ask this like "do you follow a psychometrist model?"

3. Is there built in report writing time? Protected research time?

4. How long are the batteries? (1hr? 4hr? 8hr?). The way to sneakily find this out is to simply ask what tests their batteries typically consist of (do they do a full WAIS on everyone? MMPI?)

5. How many other clinical responsibilies will you have, like cognitive rehabilitation cases (or even psychotherapy?) per week?

6. You can ask if there are social activities / opportunities outside of work for the postdocs/other employees- that may lead into a nice discussion of work/life (i.e., you'll be looking for an answer along the lines of, "oh yes, we get together for happy hour after work" or "I like to hike" rather than "WHAT FREE TIME!?!"

7. How is billing and scheduling handled?



Let me know if you have any other questions- I like helping people out with this stuff.

ps- saw you are interested in the appcn match- most sites in Massachusetts and many others in the region you are looking are NOT part of the match, but known as excellent sites anyway. Soooo you may not want to limit youself to only appcn)

 

[NP Blues]

hey NP blues,

Here are some that I think would be appropriate to ask- but don't ask them all at once! They may tell you all this info unsolicited, which would be the preferable way for you to find this out 🙂

1. How many patients will you be you be seeing each week? Inpatient vs. outpatient? (inpatients tend to get less testing/have shorter reports). A non-lazy way of asking this may simply be, "what is the patient (vet/client/insert their terminology here) flow like each week?"

2. For how many of those will you be doing all the testing? (as opposed to just the interview and having a psychometrist or student do most of the testing for you). You can ask this like "do you follow a psychometrist model?"

3. Is there built in report writing time? Protected research time?

4. How long are the batteries? (1hr? 4hr? 8hr?). The way to sneakily find this out is to simply ask what tests their batteries typically consist of (do they do a full WAIS on everyone? MMPI?)

5. How many other clinical responsibilies will you have, like cognitive rehabilitation cases (or even psychotherapy?) per week?

6. You can ask if there are social activities / opportunities outside of work for the postdocs/other employees- that may lead into a nice discussion of work/life (i.e., you'll be looking for an answer along the lines of, "oh yes, we get together for happy hour after work" or "I like to hike" rather than "WHAT FREE TIME!?!"

7. How is billing and scheduling handled?



Let me know if you have any other questions- I like helping people out with this stuff.

ps- saw you are interested in the appcn match- most sites in Massachusetts and many others in the region you are looking are NOT part of the match, but known as excellent sites anyway. Soooo you may not want to limit youself to only appcn)

Thanks so much! That's very helpful.

I'm not limiting myself to match sites, but I've heard that a lot of sites want decisions before the match and won't hold a place for you. Sites are just starting to announce positions, so I'm keeping an eye out on the peds neuropsych listserv as well as the APPIC postdoc listserv- are there any other places that a lot of sites advertise positions?

Feel free to send me any advice you have. 🙂. PM is fine, if you don't want to post it here. I'm just trying to be prepared for the app season- the internship match was not fun and I want to make this one (if I do go that route) as smooth as possible.