Neurology douchebag - Does white count really help with seizure work up?

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The whole point of the thread is that they are telling the ED what to do, often with the BS "we won't consult until XYZ is done.

I think that attitude is unfortunate. When I admit (granted as a resident, but I hope I don't suddenly become a jackass on July 1), I say something like "I'll be right down to evaluate. Would you mind ordering X, Y, and Z so they can be cooking while I talk to the patient?"

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If the patient was afebile, nothing in the CBC changes the management.

Unless the patient was febrile at home and took 3 tylenol. And then seized. And then was afebrile in your ER because he took 3 tylenol. And couldn't tell you about it because he was, well, post ictal...
 
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Can we get back to calling people douchebags, please ?

I remember back in high school I called someone a douchebag and my teacher overheard me. She was legitimately excited; used to be one of her favorite derogatory terms when she was younger but it seemed to fall out of favor. She was pretty happy to know it came back around.
 
had a little disagreement with a neuro resident last night. without getting into the details too much, they wanted a head CT on someone we both knew would be negative. Expected plan in my mind was just d/c with outpatient follow up somewhere else for an MRI.

Usually I just get scans because I don't really care.
My attending felt very strongly about not getting the CT.

Neuro told me they wouldn't feel comfortable d/c patient home without scan.

I told them that's fine, they could just admit the patient to their service.

For some reason, they no longer cared about the CT.
 
...there are easily found guidelines published by the AAN (american academy of neuro) and ACEP clinical policy on all of these (evaluation of seizure, neuroimaging of seizure)...

ACEP PolicY:
http://www.acep.org/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=8820

Couple of articles:
Krumholz A, Wiebe S, Gronseth G, Shinnar S, Levisohn P, Ting T, et al. Practice Parameter: evaluating an apparent unprovoked first seizure in adults (an evidence-based review): report of the Quality Standards Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology and the American Epilepsy Society. Neurology. Nov 20 2007;69(21):1996-2007. [Medline].

American College of Emergency Physicians. Clinical policy: Critical issues in the evaluation and management of adult patients presenting to the emergency department with seizures. Ann Emerg Med. May 2004;43(5):605-25. [Medline].

From AAN:

Question 3:What is the likelihood that acute management for the emergency patient presenting
with a chronic seizure will be changed by the results of a neuroimaging study?


Evidence. Three Class III studies addressed this
question (table 3).2,6,15 All three studies included
patients with either chronic or first seizures and
imaging results on both types of patients within
each study are shown in table 3. These studies
included 60 to 139 patients with chronic seizures,
and 24 to 138 patients with first seizure; 12 to
25% overall had abnormal CT scans. The rates of
abnormal CT findings in patients with chronic
seizures vs a first seizure in the emergency setting
are not different, and approximately 7 to 21% of
patients with chronic seizures have abnormal imaging studies. Frequent CT abnormalities were
cerebral hemorrhages and shunt malfunctions.
However, evidence for the likelihood of an imaging study changing management for emergency
patients with chronic seizures is not available.
Conclusion. The evidence is inadequate to support or refute the usefulness of emergency CT in
persons with chronic seizures.
Recommendation. There is no recommendation
regarding an emergency CT in persons with
chronic seizures (Level U).

AAN guidelines for evaluation of Seizure

http://www.neurology.org/content/69/21/1996.full.pdf

http://www.neurology.org/content/55/5/616.full.pdf

http://www.neurology.org/content/60/2/166.full.pdf

http://www.neurology.org/content/69/18/1772.full.pdf - discusses chr Sz and neuroimaging



had a little disagreement with a neuro resident last night. without getting into the details too much, they wanted a head CT on someone we both knew would be negative. Expected plan in my mind was just d/c with outpatient follow up somewhere else for an MRI.

Usually I just get scans because I don't really care.
My attending felt very strongly about not getting the CT.

Neuro told me they wouldn't feel comfortable d/c patient home without scan.

I told them that's fine, they could just admit the patient to their service.

For some reason, they no longer cared about the CT.
 
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