Neurology Residency programs

Discussion in 'Neurology' started by kati, Oct 20, 2002.

  1. kati

    kati Junior Member
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    Does anyone know which residencies are considered to be good in Neurology? And if so, what makes it a good residency? What should I look for in a Neurology residency? Also, what is the average salary of a Neurologist?
    Thanks for any answers!
     
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  3. travel

    travel New Member

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    Hi Kati,

    From speaking with several neurology residents, the neurology programs most often named (in no particular order) include:
    UCSF
    Penn
    Johns Hopkins
    Partners (MGH/Brigham)
    Washington University (in St. Louis)
    Beth Israel
    UCLA (not the Harbor program)

    Some others that are mentioned but not as often:
    Emory
    Columbia
    University of Washington (in Seattle)
    U Virginia
    Mayo
    Michigan
    Stanford
    UCLA-Harbor

    What makes these programs "good?" Beats me. Most of the top programs are academic programs with a long tradition of being good in neurology and having very strong research. They are tertiary centers with high patient loads, which means that you will see more zebras than at other places (in addition to the bread and butter neurology patients). They are also places where the so-called leaders of neurology research are found. They are strong in more than just one or a few neurologic subspecialties.

    Mean salary is $175,000 per year.

    Hope this helps. I am sure, though, that many people will disagree with my answers.
     
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  4. kati

    kati Junior Member
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    Thanks, travel. Yes, that does help. At least it gives me a starting ground.

    I'm wondering about the $175K salary though. One of my Neurology attendings told me that she has to work really hard just to make $100K! I couldn't believe her, I had always thought that it was closer to what you said and everything I have seen seems to be closer to your figure than hers, so she really threw me off when she said that.
    I don't know why she makes so little. Maybe because she is in a university setting? She is a new attending - maybe that has something to do with it also. I didn't want to get all into her business. I was surprised she even volunteered that much.
     
  5. Pinky

    Pinky and the Brain
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    Columbia is generally regarded as the premier Neurology program in the country.

    Harvard, Penn, UCSF, WashU, and Columbia would probably be at the top of the heap.

    Here's a list of what I've heard to be the top programs in no particular order (after interviewing and talking to people):

    East: Columbia, Hopkins, Penn, Harvard, Yale

    West: UCLA, UCSD, UCSF, Washington

    Midwest: Mayo, Washington U in St. Louis, Cleveland Clinic,
    Michigan

    South: Baylor, Duke, Emory

    And yes, I too have heard about how difficult it is to make money in neurology. Starting salaries in Chicago are usually < $90K.

    The attendings at my med school all complained about how little they made but they never disclosed any numbers.
     
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  6. Alias

    Alias Member
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    I would have to disagree that Columbia is the premier program in the country but would agree that it is in the top 4 with Hopkins, Partners and UCSF. By the way when you list the top of the heap where is Hopkins (which many would say is the premier program split with Partners).
     
  7. jimdo

    jimdo Senior Member
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    This thread is of particular interest to me in that I will be matching at the end of next month. First of all, regarding salary...we need to remember that the $150-175,000 figure is an average. By definition, that means that there are higher and lower salaries. Secondly, geography has a lot to do with salary determination. The Midwest and South tend to be higher in compensation than the Northeast or the West. The earlier figure from Chicago seems aberant to me, I really cannot explain it. I do know that an academic based neurologist in Detroit quoted me directly that a neurologist in Detroit can pull down 170K per year on average. Private practice of course would be higher proportionally.
    We also need to consider that a generalist in neurology will make less than one who, for example, specializes in epilepsy. Procedures such as EEG/EMG make up a difference so if one is more devoted to these endeavors, salary will be commensurate. Lastly, consider practice setting. A private practitioner with a loose university affiliation wil likely make more financially than one who is solely devoted to a university setting.
    However, please remember that salary is not a good reason to pursue any specialty. It is our ability to aid the downtrodden and allow the healing from God to work through us that ought to motivate us. Any other motivation ought to be secondary and a reward. You dont need a lecture Im sure, just simply laying that out as a reminder. Good luck in the match and in your practice of neurology.
     
  8. Mustafa

    Mustafa Member
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    According to Dr. Galetta PD at Penn Neuro:

    1. UCSF
    2. Harvard
    3. Penn
    4. Hopkins
     
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  9. Molly Maquire

    Molly Maquire Senior Member
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    There is an ad for a neurologist in the New York Times right now.

    The salary is listed as 180,000-200,000++.
     
  10. gbv

    gbv Member
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    Hi, can someone quickly explain the actual role of "academic-based" neurologist and one who is not? Obviously, I know what it generally means, but are the options either that you are a full-time academician in a hospital or you hang up a shingle somewhere in town? I know this reeks of ignorance, but I just wanted a clear explanation (and any other info regarding practice options for a neurologist--or a physician in general for that matter).

    thanks a lot! :)
     
  11. unregistered

    unregistered Senior Member
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    about salary, in houston, I have been told by teaching residents that starting is roughly 120-160K, and goes upward from there...
     
  12. gbv

    gbv Member
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    bump.

    hi--I wrote a response eons ago (it's a couple of posts up from this one). Was wondering if anyone could shed some light. Sorry it's such an old thread, but I was hoping that I might be able to get some answers (and if someone could contribute to the thread in general that's cool).

    Thanks everyone. :)
     
  13. neurologist

    neurologist En garde
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    One of the fun things about being done with residency is that you start getting all these mailings from headhunters recruiting you. I get at least 3 or 4 of these a week. Most of the points already made are true: there is a definite geographic difference in salaries (South=highest, northeast and west coast=lowest) This mostly relates to managed care penetration (or lack thereof), number of neurologists already in the area, and difficulty in recruiting people to certain locations (I don't care how much they pay me, I ain't going to Louisiana. I saw an article once that said 75% of all doctors wanted to practice in one of just 7 states -- that's pretty limiting. If I recall right, the states were Florida, Texas, New York, Colorado, Washington, California, and North Carolina).

    In those ads which have actually listed a salary, the range has been from 150K to 300K. Obviously, there are LOTS of variables at work here, since compensation can be be a very complicated matter (partnership vs straight salary vs productivity bonuses, etc). You also have to keep other factors mind (insurance, CME $, retirement, malpractice, call schedule, etc). Most of these jobs are for private practice or hospital-based practices, you don't get many from academic centers, so I can't comment on that setting.

    The bottom line is that not many neurologists are sending their kids to bed hungry at night. A good point to keep the salary issues in perspective is that a salary of 120 K puts you in the TOP 5% OF ALL WAGE EARNERS in the country. That's pretty darn good if you think about it.

    As to the question of "what's a good residency," my take on that has always been "the best residency is the one that seems right for you." There are lots of variables here: geographic preference, research opportunities, program size, "feel" for the place, etc. The key things that you need to keep in mind are:

    1. most physicians DON"T do residencies at Harvard/Penn/Columbia etc, and yet are still quite well trained and competent. If a "big name" matters to you, well, that's fine, but my feeling has always been that unless you plan a high-powered academic research career, it's not really all that important to go to a place like that. I've never had a patient ask me where I went to med school or did my residency.

    2. Your impression of the program during the interview is probably what's most important. I interviewed at some of the "top" programs and walked out thinking "no way I'd ever come here," and left some lesser known programs thinking "hey, this place is great." Remember, you're going to be spending most of your life for 4 years there, so your gut feeling about a place is pretty important.

    3. The bottom line for #1 and #2 is: apply to a wide range of places. Talk to your med school neurology faculty about not only "what are the 'best' residencies" (because, from a purely statistical viewpoint, you won't be going to one of them), but "what do you think are strong but maybe lesser known residencies." Of course, they may be biased toward their own program, but most will give you pretty honest answers.
     
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  14. Molly Maquire

    Molly Maquire Senior Member
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    What are the most lucrative fellowships in Neurology?
     
  15. neurologist

    neurologist En garde
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    If it ever gets completely approved and accepted by the medical (i.e., radiology) community, it's going to be interventional neurology (see the multiple postings on this site about that topic). Until that time, sleep medicine is probably the biggest moneymaker. But keep in mind that nothing in neurology gets you into the salary range of ophtho, rads, or specialty surgery.
     
  16. IMGforNeuro

    IMGforNeuro Senior Member
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    How lucrative are fellowships in stroke/cerebrovascular and critical care? How good are career options after this fellowship?
     
  17. IMGforNeuro

    IMGforNeuro Senior Member
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    come on guys .
    How lucrative are fellowships in stroke/cerebrovascular and critical care? How good are career options after this fellowship?
     
  18. IMGforNeuro

    IMGforNeuro Senior Member
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    come on guys.
    How lucrative are fellowships in stroke/cerebrovascular and critical care? How good are career options after this fellowship?
     
  19. charcot

    charcot Member
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    In a Very particular order:

    Hopkins
    Partners
    Columbia
    UCSF
    Penn
    Wash U
    UCLA


    I have interviewed at them all and the top 4 are way ahead of the rest of the pack. They produce not just outstanding academicians, but also a cadre of superb clinicians and the most desirable applicants for advanced fellowships.
     
  20. tofurious

    tofurious Senior Member
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    I thought you were a PM&R resident...
     
  21. charcot

    charcot Member
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    I am now PM&R, used to be neuro.
     
  22. tofurious

    tofurious Senior Member
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    So which of the top 4 couldn't keep you?
     
  23. mrmed

    mrmed Member
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    Why did you leave neuro for PM&R? I am leaving PM&R for neuro and am curious.
     
  24. charcot

    charcot Member
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    My reason for leaving neuro for PM&R is multifactorial. I was unable to get into the top 4 neuro programs. #1 Hopkins, (by far the best), #2 Partners (Malignant but solid), #3 Columbia, or #4 UCSF (solid). Where I did end up, I realized that I would not achieve the level of academic stardum needed to be a leader in academic neurology. (I think this is very true, and I've bet my career on it). I think Neuro is fantastic and one of the, if not THE most exciting fields in medicine. I think if you are an MD-PhD, have a research bent, and come from a superb residency program you will be poised for great success in academic neurology. Otherwise clinical neurology is tough in the private setting and you will have a very different situation. One that I am not interested in. I think PM&R is closely related in training and an easy transition. I have seen few "fascinating cases" as in neuro but I think all in all this is what I wanted. Plus Pain Medicine is fascinating to me and makes a real difference for patients, something for which neuro is always criticized.
    To mrmed go with your gut.
     
  25. cda.foreign

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    Hi, neurologist

    I enjoyed your coments very much, those were good advices. I got curious about asking you that same question, "what do you think are strong but lesser known residencies" in the USA? Would you recommend any?

    Thank you for the tips!

    =)
     
  26. Jubears09

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    Having just done a round of interviews with most of the above + a lot more (SO going into very competitive specialty in couples match) My advice is to keep an open mind about these things because the problem with rankings is they can create an gap because programs that are in reality indistinguisable from one another. IMO, the difference between 1 and 25 in terms of residency training is minute unless you have a very specific subspecialty or research interest that's way out there. The consensus top (Columbia definitely belongs, UCSF, JHU, Partners, Penn, and possibly WashU) are there because they have full representation of just about every subspecialty and a long history, but there is a long list of programs that are missing just one or two of the rarer fellowships (behavior, neuro ONC, neuro immuno, along those lines) but are great in everything else, will give you a great general neurology foundation and have fellowship lists that are indistinguishable from those top 5 programs (with the caveat that pretty much every program keeps about half of their own residents any given year). I definitely think the top depts are better for fellowship training, but at the residency level I suspect there's not much difference. At the end of the day you only need one big name to write that letter for connection purposes and neuro is a small enough community especially at the subspecialty level that every place has someone.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "lesser known" but among the places that are not usually on the "top 10" lists on these forums that I interviewed at, I remember Mt. Sinai in NYC, UChig, UPMC, Vanderbilt, and Stanford all being programs that I wouldn't have been able to tell apart from Penn, partners, etc based on credentials of my interviewers/fellowship lists/etc had I been blinded on the hospital name. Of course those listed by others are all awesome too and I'm basing this on very limited exposure.
     
  27. typhoonegator

    typhoonegator Neurointensivist
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    Guys,

    This thread is from 2004. Ten years is a long time to assume that the status of programs has not changed. I'd much prefer you start a new thread, given that the post that resurrected this one from the dead is not actually germane to the discussion that died during the first GW Bush administration
     
  28. drzing

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    I think a real nice guy suggested a while back that we close the older threads like these to new comments, for this very reason. :)
     
  29. rjgennarelli

    rjgennarelli Senior Member
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    We may not have gotten Jubear's valuable input if they were.

    Thank you for the info Jubears
     
  30. typhoonegator

    typhoonegator Neurointensivist
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    There's nothing wrong with resurrecting old threads if the new post takes into account the age of the zombie. This forum does not close threads simply because of their age, and there is no mechanism by which to do that anyway. It would have to be automated and would impact every forum on this site.
     

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