Neuropsychology programs

[Member878812]

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[Pragma]

Does anyone have a list (or know of individual) of programs with neuropsychology options (not necessarily a track, but at least a lab and some board certified neuropsychologists on staff? The D40 website listing is outdated and the past threads are relatively old.

I'm looking for funded PsyDs or clinical PhD programs in the next few years.

Outside of medical schools with clinical psychology programs, I doubt you will find many programs with a board certified neuropsychologist as a full time faculty member. I am sure there are a couple out there, but it wouldn't be common.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You won't find a definitive list bc of varying research interests, but there have been quite a few discussions about programs. Places like U of FL are great....but it really depends on your research fit. My last two depts had multiple ABPP'd faculty, though as a prior posted mentioned...we are like many and are housed in medical schools and do not take students for FT mentorship.

 

[roubs]

Does anyone have a list (or know of individual) of programs with neuropsychology options (not necessarily a track, but at least a lab and some board certified neuropsychologists on staff? The D40 website listing is outdated and the past threads are relatively old.

I'm looking for funded PsyDs or clinical PhD programs in the next few years.

A sizable percentage of students in my program go on to be neuropsychologists, but we have no neuropsych faculty. What we do have are several alums and other neuropsychologists in the city we are in who take our students for 2-3 practica. We do get some neuropsych research experience on site but this is definitely outside the lab/faculty setting. So it would be at least as useful to look at programs you find desirable for other reasons and investigate how many of that program's graduates go into neuropsych.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree that listing your potential research interests could go a long way toward helping you (and posters here) narrow down a list of "target" programs.

 

[Member878812]

Thank you all for the helpful responses. I understand that, according to the Houston Guidelines, it is important to complete a thesis and dissertation that focus on neuropsychology, therefore, I thought it would be critical to have a neuropsychologist as a faculty member.

In terms of my research interests, they are rather disparate--I have conducted research in the field of forensic neuropsychology and aging/dementia. In terms of future interests, I am looking at schools that include either of these interests in order to expand my options.

I would appreciate any input you have and I would also like a variety of options in the mid and lower-tier (being realistic with a mid-level UG GPA) schools.

 

[Pragma]

Most people I know who did neuro theses and dissertations used data from a clinical practicum site. Often you have neuropsychologists there doing clinical research. But without exploring beyond my region, I would say that most board certified neuropsychologists don't take faculty jobs in PhD programs. They make their money doing clinical work. They are often very happy to have students analyze their data though...I think some programs have them be an outside person on the committee in those cases.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Most people I know who did neuro theses and dissertations used data from a clinical practicum site. Often you have neuropsychologists there doing clinical research. But without exploring beyond my region, I would say that most board certified neuropsychologists don't take faculty jobs in PhD programs. They make their money doing clinical work. They are often very happy to have students analyze their data though...I think some programs have them be an outside person on the committee in those cases.

Agreed. And because of this, keep in mind that having a board-certified advisor/mentor, or even the presence of board-certified supervisors, isn't at all a necessity at the grad school level. It might become a more frequent occurrence as board certification becomes more commonplace, but there are many highly-respected/well-known university faculty who, for one reason or another, are not board-certified. It'll be much easier to find once you get to searching for internships, and will actually be required (or at least strongly recommended) as you enter postdoc.

My advisor actually does some work in both of the areas you've mentioned, but is planning on retiring soon. As T4C mentioned above, UF is an example of one program that should have faculty working in at least one of those areas. Dementia is obviously huge in neuropsych, so I'd imagine just about any program with neuropsychology practica available is going to have someone focusing on it.

You can start by finding some journal articles looking at the types of work/research you'd like to do, finding out where the authors are located, and seeing if they're listed as potential POIs/supervisors in their respective grad programs.

 

[roubs]

Thank you all for the helpful responses. I understand that, according to the Houston Guidelines, it is important to complete a thesis and dissertation that focus on neuropsychology, therefore, I thought it would be critical to have a neuropsychologist as a faculty member.

In terms of my research interests, they are rather disparate--I have conducted research in the field of forensic neuropsychology and aging/dementia. In terms of future interests, I am looking at schools that include either of these interests in order to expand my options.

I would appreciate any input you have and I would also like a variety of options in the mid and lower-tier (being realistic with a mid-level UG GPA) schools.

I just looked at the Houston guidelines again, I'm not sure where it says it is important to complete a thesis and dissertation that focus on neuropsychology. It says neuropsychologists should have knowledge in "Research design and analysis in neuropsychology" -- as Pragma said this can be accomplished via research done at a practicum site.

 

[Pragma]

I just looked at the Houston guidelines again, I'm not sure where it says it is important to complete a thesis and dissertation that focus on neuropsychology. It says neuropsychologists should have knowledge in "Research design and analysis in neuropsychology" -- as Pragma said this can be accomplished via research done at a practicum site.

Yes at this point such a requirement would be exclusionary. The field encourages folks to get involved at different stages with adequate training and experience.

My thesis and dissertation were not in neuro. But I did some other projects with clinical supervisors on my own time to get neuro research experience and become more competitive for fellowship, which is really the key connection when it comes to the boarding process. Your fellowship should have a boarded supervisor.

 

[Member878812]

You're right. I apologize for the false information. It has been something I've heard over the years, and it makes sense that research should be in neuro, therefore, while it is not a requirement, it would be very beneficial.

For those of you in programs where students conduct research through their practicum sites, what types of research are these students doing within their labs? It seems as though research conducted within the labs would be very different from the neuro research.

 

[Pragma]

You're right. I apologize for the false information. It has been something I've heard over the years, and it makes sense that research should be in neuro, therefore, while it is not a requirement, it would be very beneficial.

For those of you in programs where students conduct research through their practicum sites, what types of research are these students doing within their labs? It seems as though research conducted within the labs would be very different from the neuro research.

Personally, I did treatment outcomes research in my home lab/thesis/dissert. I did some population-specific neuropsychology research with board-certified neuropsychology folks from practica experiences - but not as a thesis or dissertation.

I knew some folks that attended a neuro-track program who did theses and disserts focused on neuropsychology as there were some neuropsychologists as a part of their program (which is somewhat rare yet these days on the whole). But the majority of folks who I know who didn't have those faculty members that did neuro theses/disserts often replaced a major component of their lab work with the work they used from clinical supervisors. I am not sure how these negotiations worked, but for many of these students, they had a mentor at their home school who played less of a role. Depending on their funding situation, they might not have been obligated to do much in the other lab. Or, they may have kept up with their expected lab duties, but did most of their dissertation work outside of that context and had more guidance from the neuropsychologists.

Also, this isn't specific to neuropsychology - any specialty that wants to study a population may need to have a liaison with a medical center or other organization in order to have access to that population. Health psychology is a good example.

 

[Member878812]

I see, I'm just wondering how a program without specific neuropsychology training would look compared to a school with said training. I was interested in a program affiliated with a medical school who has NPs on staff, but upon hearing back from a professor, he stated that due to competition, it is difficult to pursue an NP path without this specific training at the graduate level. What are the thoughts on this? It seems that those posting have already gone through the internship process, but do you think it's much different now with the "internship crisis?"

Pragma, you mentioned friends attended neuro-track programs, would you mind sharing? I have a list of about seven-eight that fit my interests, but am hoping for 10-13.

 

[LETSGONYR]

I see, I'm just wondering how a program without specific neuropsychology training would look compared to a school with said training. I was interested in a program affiliated with a medical school who has NPs on staff, but upon hearing back from a professor, he stated that due to competition, it is difficult to pursue an NP path without this specific training at the graduate level. What are the thoughts on this? It seems that those posting have already gone through the internship process, but do you think it's much different now with the "internship crisis?"

Pragma, you mentioned friends attended neuro-track programs, would you mind sharing? I have a list of about seven-eight that fit my interests, but am hoping for 10-13.

I'm applying for neuropsych internships now, so I'm pretty familiar with the process.

Every former supervisor, including neuropsychologists on intern and post-doc selection committees, has told me that most fellowships are looking for a well-rounded practitioner... they want someone with a general internship, with a strong neuro focus, rather than ONLY neuro.

The fact is that you'll still need to get licensed as a clinical psychologist, and you will need to have the skills that all clinical psychologists should have (e.g., therapy). A post-doc doesn't want to be responsible for teaching you those skills, they want to focus on the neuro parts of your training.

My program does not have a specific neuro track, even though we do have a neuropsychologist as a faculty member. We do have a course in neuropsych assessment, as well as a few other neuro-ish courses. The folks that are interested in neuro tend to do neuro focused practica, and seek opportunities to become more involved in the neuro field. And I think those opportunities will be available at most programs... you'll especially be able to find practica sites that involve neuro if you are in a city or near a hospital.

At this point (it may change in the future), a purely neuro-focused program is absolutely not a necessity and may even make it harder to obtain an internship (as most internships require some therapy, and as i understand it, want to HONE your skills, not teach new ones).

 

[roubs]

I see, I'm just wondering how a program without specific neuropsychology training would look compared to a school with said training. I was interested in a program affiliated with a medical school who has NPs on staff, but upon hearing back from a professor, he stated that due to competition, it is difficult to pursue an NP path without this specific training at the graduate level. What are the thoughts on this? It seems that those posting have already gone through the internship process, but do you think it's much different now with the "internship crisis?"

Pragma, you mentioned friends attended neuro-track programs, would you mind sharing? I have a list of about seven-eight that fit my interests, but am hoping for 10-13.

By specific training did he mean publishing a dissertation in the neuropsych field or did he mean training in neuropsych practice? I think the latter is obviously required at the grad level but doesn't require your program to have NP faculty or a track.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Every former supervisor, including neuropsychologists on intern and post-doc selection committees, has told me that most fellowships are looking for a well-rounded practitioner... they want someone with a general internship, with a strong neuro focus, rather than ONLY neuro.

I believe this to be true 98% of the time. You are first a clinical psychologist (or counseling) and then a neuropsychologist, as being able to leverage all of your training will enhance your neuropsych abilities.

At this point (it may change in the future), a purely neuro-focused program is absolutely not a necessity and may even make it harder to obtain an internship (as most internships require some therapy, and as i understand it, want to HONE your skills, not teach new ones).

Many in the field are very skeptical of these training programs because they focus on speciality training and (IMHO) do not build enough of a foundation as a psychologist to really do the job right. I think a major short-coming of programs that focus too much on speciality training is the over-reliance on technical training at the cost of teaching students how to think and practice as a clinical scientist and clinical psychologist first.

 

[Pragma]

You are first a clinical psychologist (or counseling) and then a neuropsychologist

I hear a familiar drum beating 😉

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I hear a familiar drum beating 😉

You know me too well. 😀

This is a HUUUUUGE pet peeve of mine. Neuropsychology is a sub-speciality, and students should be trained as generalists before jumping into the deep end of speciality work. I'm 8+ yrs in and I'm still learning every. single. day....and this includes both generalist and speciality areas of knowledge. There is such a turnover in research that if you aren't constantly reading, you are falling behind. If I didn't have a strong basis as a generalist, I'd really by lost because so much of what I do as a neuropsychologist is predicated on knowledge I acquired as a generalist. Differential diagnostic of nuanced psych symptoms, how to handle a feedback session that the patient isn't ready to hear, behavior management in an acute setting, etc.

I'm glad that students (and prospective students) are starting to ask the right questions, as many are being sold a bill of goods that will not get them where they want to go. Internship and Fellowship training programs are already very very picky about who they deem worthy to interview (let alone rank/select), and it is just getting worse with the addition of 'speciality' training programs and overly specific 'tracks' that seem to focus on the trees and completely miss the forest. I'm curious to see the CVs of the interns and post-docs this year, as I'm sure they will be far better than what I had when I applied just a few short years ago.

 

[Pragma]

You know me too well. 😀

Actually it was my primary neuropsychology mentor who got me into it in the first place. It was a mantra in group supervision. But the sentiment seems pretty broad among neuropsychologists in general.

Edit: I was typing and talking to someone at the same time 🙂

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I attended a program that sounds similar to LETSGONYR's--no actual neuro track, but my advisor is a well-known neuropsychologist, and through him we had a variety of neuro practica and research experiences available. But at the same time, much of this occurred on top of general clinical psych training as opposed to instead of it. Those in my lab did tend to have many more assessment hours, and fewer therapy hours, than students in other labs, but we all still conducted at least a couple years' worth of EBTs and many non-neuro intake assessments.

In my experience, the most competitive postdoc applicants have been those who attained a decent amount of neuro in grad school, but, like Pragma and T4C have said, first or concurrently received very solid generalist training. This generalist training can then be rounded out while on internship. If you had lots of neuro in grad school, be sure to get a good bit of therapy training on internship. Conversely, if you didn't have much neuro in grad school, aim for at least 50% of your internship being more neuro-heavy.

Anecdotally, I've interacted with a number if people from neuro doctoral tracks, and the tendency to focus ONLY on neuro related issues is off-putting. It also tends to cause other psychologists and trainees to think we're full of ourselves, which unfortunately seems to be a growing trend.

 

[Pragma]

I attended a program that sounds similar to LETSGONYR's--no actual neuro track, but my advisor is a well-known neuropsychologist, and through him we had a variety of neuro practica and research experiences available. But at the same time, much of this occurred on top of general clinical psych training as opposed to instead of it. Those in my lab did tend to have many more assessment hours, and fewer therapy hours, than students in other labs, but we all still conducted at least a couple years' worth of EBTs and many non-neuro intake assessments.

In my experience, the most competitive postdoc applicants have been those who attained a decent amount of neuro in grad school, but, like Pragma and T4C have said, first or concurrently received very solid generalist training. This generalist training can then be rounded out while on internship. If you had lots of neuro in grad school, be sure to get a good bit of therapy training on internship. Conversely, if you didn't have much neuro in grad school, aim for at least 50% of your internship being more neuro-heavy.

Anecdotally, I've interacted with a number if people from neuro doctoral tracks, and the tendency to focus ONLY on neuro related issues is off-putting. It also tends to cause other psychologists and trainees to think we're full of ourselves, which unfortunately seems to be a growing trend.

I'll have to refer to the HG again, but I was under the impression that 50% of neuro emphasis while on internship was a requirement. It makes sense to me that it might not need to be if you had a lot earlier on, but how would postdoc sites view applicants on an internship with only minor neuropsychology rotations for less than half of the year?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In my experience, the most competitive postdoc applicants have been those who attained a decent amount of neuro in grad school, but, like Pragma and T4C have said, first or concurrently received very solid generalist training. This generalist training can then be rounded out while on internship. If you had lots of neuro in grad school, be sure to get a good bit of therapy training on internship. Conversely, if you didn't have much neuro in grad school, aim for at least 50% of your internship being more neuro-heavy.

As Pragma mentioned, 50% is one of the recommendations for HG....however, there are multiple combinations of experiences that will qualify. There are some nifty bar graphs available in the original HG publication that shows the 3 (4?) combinations they recognize. It has been awhile since I've looked over the guidelines, but there was at least one thread (that I started) on SDN that talked about it.

FWIW...I completed a 'generalist' internship, though with the blessing (hard earned!) of my DCT and supervisors, I was able to augment all of my non-neuro rotations to include neuro-related work whenever possible. I put in a ton of extra hours reviewing articles/scoring/report writing/etc....but the payoff was an amazing training experience. I think I was a thorn in their side bc of my persistence, but it all worked out in the end. 😀

I don't recommend taking this path, as I would have been stuck if my supervisors weren't willing to really work with me to maximize my neuro experience. There are plenty of great internship sites that don't have specific neuro tracks, but you really want to do your HW and make sure they are neuro-friendly and have the kind of supervision you need to make it work.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

See, that's the thing--I'd always heard the 50% rule as well, but didn't dig very deeply until someone actually from Houston pointed out that nowhere in the Houston Guidelines is that specific recommendation made (that I've been able to find, anyway). All that's mentioned pertaining to neuropsych training while on internship is essentially:

The percentage of time in clinical neuropsychology should be determined by the training needs of the individual intern.

and a bit further down...

Clinical neuropsychology residents will have successfully completed an APA or CPA accredited internship program which includes some training in clinical neuropsychology.

I believe it was Division 40 and/or AITCN which suggested/dictated the 50% stipulation.

Either way, having 50% of your time in neuropsych certainly isn't going to hurt. But given that the Houston Guidelines seem to be the most widely-accepted training standard, and as they don't explicitly mention the 50+% split, I can see how trainees with a lot of neuropsych experience at the grad school level could remain competitive for solid fellowships.

 

[Pragma]

See, that's the thing--I'd always heard the 50% rule as well, but didn't dig very deeply until someone actually from Houston pointed out that nowhere in the Houston Guidelines is that specific recommendation made (that I've been able to find, anyway). All that's mentioned pertaining to neuropsych training while on internship is essentially:



and a bit further down...



I believe it was Division 40 and/or AITCN which suggested/dictated the 50% stipulation.

Either way, having 50% of your time in neuropsych certainly isn't going to hurt. But given that the Houston Guidelines seem to be the most widely-accepted training standard, and as they don't explicitly mention the 50+% split, I can see how trainees with a lot of neuropsych experience at the grad school level could remain competitive for solid fellowships.

Intersting - the board-certified folks I had supervising me said 50% was a rule. I took an internship with 50% (didn't consider others, actually).

 

[Souzou]

Hello all,

I've posted about neuropsychology on this forum before, and I have been trying to do a lot of research online and talk to professors. However, I'm still a little confused so if anyone can help me it would be great!

1) I've been searching schools that have neuropsychology emphasis as a part of their clinical PhD programs. Is this the right way to go or should I just apply to just clinical PhD programs and then focus on getting an internship/fellowship in neuro?

2) If I did apply to clinical PhD programs without an emphasis on neuropsychology, should I look for ones that have labs in neuropsychology or something similar?

Thanks!

 

[roubs]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=947782

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod note: merged these threads owing to similar subject matter