i've been researching about this board and have been wondering how hard it would be to find a job having completed a postdoc in neuropsychology?
neuropsychology job openings?
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It really depends. There are jobs available, but not a whole lot. The person's training will have a big say into whether they get a good job. I had no difficulty getting several offers coming out of an APPCN postdoc and most others I know, who have also come out of APPCN post docs, have had a similar experience. People who limit themselves geographically have been the only ones coming out of these programs who had difficulty (based on my limited sample of people I know). It seems to be getting more competitive at the post doc level.
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Hi,
First I wanted to thank you Dr. JT for answering my questions on the neuro/forensic thread. I also have another question for you, or whoever else knows. I was wondering if it is necessary to have a APPCN post-doc to become a neuropsychologist. Because there's not that many of them (unless I'm looking in the wrong place), and that has me concerned about whether or not I could actually secure a post-doc if there are only a few of them. They must be extremely competitive. How many spots are generally at each post-doc location? Thanks!
First I wanted to thank you Dr. JT for answering my questions on the neuro/forensic thread. I also have another question for you, or whoever else knows. I was wondering if it is necessary to have a APPCN post-doc to become a neuropsychologist. Because there's not that many of them (unless I'm looking in the wrong place), and that has me concerned about whether or not I could actually secure a post-doc if there are only a few of them. They must be extremely competitive. How many spots are generally at each post-doc location? Thanks!
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Hi Jack,
This question boils down to being board certified of at least eligible. Any psychologist can call themselves a neuropsychologist, the only way to prove you have the required training is through board certification. The APPCN post docs put you in the position of being board eligible. Some non APPCN post docs do also, but most of them are now taking part in the APPCN match. Most programs take 1-2 post docs every year or every other year. It has become very very competitive for those spots.
This question boils down to being board certified of at least eligible. Any psychologist can call themselves a neuropsychologist, the only way to prove you have the required training is through board certification. The APPCN post docs put you in the position of being board eligible. Some non APPCN post docs do also, but most of them are now taking part in the APPCN match. Most programs take 1-2 post docs every year or every other year. It has become very very competitive for those spots.
An APPCN postdoc is not needed. If you are well trained at a respected institution you likely won't have difficulty finding a 2-year postdoc that moves you towards board certification. There are many great training sites that choose not to take part in the postdoc match. It is a source of tension for training directors because top applicants often drop out of the match when they get offers prior to the match submission deadline. Neuropsychology is a very small field. If you do a postdoc with a board certified neuropsychologist, make sure you meet the guidelines (see below), you won't have a problem.
http://www.div40.org/def.html
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You are correct that there are many great training sites that do not take part in the match and there is some friction among training directors, but there is no question that many if not most of these programs are now taking part in the match. Many of the non match programs have a stronger research orientation and are not providing adequate clinical hours to meet div 40 guidelines. I interviewed a few postdoc applicants last year that were already in training at some well respected sites, but realized they would not be board eligible so were looking to switch. I think things will continue moving in this direction. Things are very different in terms of board eligibility (at least ABPP) for those who graduate post January 2005. Match programs and preferably APPCN programs are the only insurance that you will meet requirements without having to deal with a lot of red tape.
I agree completely, but it is important for people interested in neuropsychology to know that there are many more options than the few listed on the APPCN website. Otherwise, interested students would have to consider the possibility of going through many years of training, only to be turned away at the final step because they didn't match.
I think it is telling that many of the top neuropsychology internship sites are not part of APPCN. They know that they will have their pick of top students, regardless of match participation. For example, Brown, University of Florida, and most of the Harvard Medical School fellowships do not participate in the match, but offer postdocs that meet Div40/INS guidelines.
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I don't really disagree with you, but just as many of the top programs are APPCN. Some of the non APPCN programs just don't offer the same didactic opportunities, and several use postdocs as work horses. This will likely change since unlicensed postdocs can now only be billed as techs in many areas and the number of postdoc opportunities may diminish. APPCN does ensure postdocs will get a structures, well rounded training experience, which is why I am a supporter.
Also, some students are turned away at the last moment due to not matching, it is competitive and the top people do well in the match and otherwise. But ultimately there are no guarantees.
I'm not putting down the APPCN programs at all. I like the increased structure and built-in protections that the fellowships offer. My initial concerns were that the need for an APPCN postdoc and the lack of slots would allow for postdoc salaries to remain miserably low. However, the opposite seems to have happened. Many of the APPCN programs use NIH postdoc salary guidelines and pay a semi-livable wage for most cities. With the changes in reimbursement, solid fellowships that pay reasonably well will likely become harder to find.
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My last count was that there are about 80 spots per year within APPCN. There is a greater political battle within APPCN or the Neuropsych Synarchy if you will. Part of the issue is that they require the training director to have their ABCN, not any other board (ABPN, ABPdN). My suspicion is that won't change even if ABPdN is successful in their affiliation with ABPP because APPCN does not allow rehab ABPPs to be DOTs either. I think you have to take some of this with a grain of salt, APPCN wants to feed ABCN and that is why the process is streamlined. It is the same as ABFP offering 2 for 1 hours at THEIR workshop but not any other.
Many great training sites are not APPCN because this ABCN DOT really bothered many of us. It was so ridiculous that even if you had two ABCNs on staff and the DOT was ABPN or ABPdN, they wouldn't accredit the site. The key is that your training experience is organized and meets the HCG or close to it. Having taken all of the exams, the ABCN written is not particularly challenging if you had decent traing and apply yourself to studying for it.
Just my two cents....
Many great training sites are not APPCN because this ABCN DOT really bothered many of us. It was so ridiculous that even if you had two ABCNs on staff and the DOT was ABPN or ABPdN, they wouldn't accredit the site. The key is that your training experience is organized and meets the HCG or close to it. Having taken all of the exams, the ABCN written is not particularly challenging if you had decent traing and apply yourself to studying for it.
Just my two cents....
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This might be a stupid question, but what's a DOT? Also, do your hours during a post-doc count toward the hours you need to become a licensed clinical psychologist? Or do you have to do them before or during your post-doc training? Also, what sorts of things do rehabilitation neuropsychologists do? Do they work with people who have brain injuries and evaluate their progress during treatment? Thanks for all of my questions you've already answered, this forum is a great resource.
I really don't think you should worry about it. If you are are trained well at a solid institution you will find a postdoc that moves you towards board certification. Neuropsychology is a very young field and the training requirements are just now beginning to be enforced. This is a good thing. It is a great time to enter the field.
"sadly, past personal and medical problems caused conflict during my first year of school leaving me with a gpa of 3.3 i still want to become a neuropsychologist, but frankly does this kill my chances of getting into a good graduate school?"
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Right. But there are many clinical neuropsychologists who also function as rehabilitation psychologists. These specializations and their accompanying titles are hardly regulated or enforced by the APA. A clinical psychologist who gives a bunch of neuropsych tests might say that they are a 'clinical neuropsychologist' and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent them from using that title. Board certification is currently NOT a requirement for practicing clinical neuropsychology.
Never to digress, neuropsych jobs:
http://www.nanonline.org/content/pages/online/emp-listingresults.php?state=&submit1=Go
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Good to know. Thank you. I am happy to hear that at least some specialty of psychology is getting their act together! That said, aren't there two 'boards' in neuropsychology -- ABPN and ABPP-CN. If so, why? There is no such thing in medical specialties. Why do psychologists have such difficulty agreeing on these kinds of things?
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To say nothing about the American Psychological Association and American Psychological Society. You don't see American Psychiatric Association and American Psychiatric Society. What gives? Why such division?
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There are actually three if you count ABPdN and they have applied for ABPP status in much the same way child clinical did. As for ABPN and ABCN, the former was started by members of the latter who felt that ABCN reflected primarily academic members. I'm not sure that can be said of the members taken in in the last decade by ABCN, but the gaurd has not changed yet. There was a meeting a while back to merge the boards and ABCN asked for the holdings, name, members, dues, materials and website and in exchange they would let the ABPN's take and pass the ABCN exam. ABPN felt that this was a little one sided since 180 members of ABCN took the exam for validation purposes and the original 23 members never took it at all. While they list 540 in the ABCN membership, the actual membership (active) is 480, so almost 40% of ABCN never passed (or were required to pass) the exam. This obviously did not sit too well with ABPN and thus the talks were abandoned.
They come up periodically when the exec boards change, but they have never moved pass this point. Many of us in both boards want this to happen particularly since the written exam is the sticking point and only 2/13 ABPP boards even have a written exam. As usual the answer is politics. But, unlike medicine, only 5% of all licenced psychologist hold an ABPP in anything so the relevence of board certification is certainly debatable.
ABCN boards about 15-18 per year
ABPN boards about 5-8 per year
ABPdN boards about 12-15 per year (but is considerably small)
If all three merged that would make about 900 or about 20% of the identified professional members of Div 40 and that is still a small number.
They come up periodically when the exec boards change, but they have never moved pass this point. Many of us in both boards want this to happen particularly since the written exam is the sticking point and only 2/13 ABPP boards even have a written exam. As usual the answer is politics. But, unlike medicine, only 5% of all licenced psychologist hold an ABPP in anything so the relevence of board certification is certainly debatable.
ABCN boards about 15-18 per year
ABPN boards about 5-8 per year
ABPdN boards about 12-15 per year (but is considerably small)
If all three merged that would make about 900 or about 20% of the identified professional members of Div 40 and that is still a small number.
