Neuropsychology post-doc alternative?

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atgers

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Hello SDNers,
I am doing a neuro track internship and will be participating in the APPCN match as well applying to sites that meet Houston/ABCN recs. Recently, I was told by a colleague one can still become a neuropsychologist without doing the fellowship/residency. Is this accurate? From my mentors at my PhD program to my supervisors at my internship, all I ever hear is how you have to do the 2-year post-doc to become a neuropsychologist. Are there neuropsychologists who did not have to do this? If so, would any of these people be competitive for a tenure track position?
Thanks

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Hello SDNers,
I am doing a neuro track internship and will be participating in the APPCN match as well applying to sites that meet Houston/ABCN recs. Recently, I was told by a colleague one can still become a neuropsychologist without doing the fellowship/residency. Is this accurate? From my mentors at my PhD program to my supervisors at my internship, all I ever hear is how you have to do the 2-year post-doc to become a neuropsychologist. Are there neuropsychologists who did not have to do this? If so, would any of these people be competitive for a tenure track position?
Thanks

The post-doc has been required since 2005. Even prior to this, most interested in the field had to do them. Maybe your college lives in the early 80s (does he have feathered hair?)

However, as I'm sure you know, there is only one license to practice psychology, so of course you could do neuropsychplogy without it. Would you be any good at it without a post-doc? No. Would it be a violation of our ethics code. Probably-depending on the extent of your evaluations and how your marketing services. Would anybody hire you as a neuropsychologist? No.
 
The post-doc has been required since 2005. Even prior to this, most interested in the field had to do them. Maybe your college lives in the early 80s (does he have feathered hair?)

However, as I'm sure you know, there is only one license to practice psychology, so of course you could do neuropsychplogy without it. Would you be any good at it without a post-doc? No. Would it be a violation of our ethics code. Probably-depending on the extent of your evaluations and how your marketing services. Would anybody hire you as a neuropsychologist? No.

This might've been the point your colleague was making, either purposefully or inadvertently (unless you're in Louisiana, in which case state licensing laws actually do protect the term "neuropsychologist").

As erg said, can you legally practice neuropsychology (or "neuropsychology") in most states without the two-year postdoc? Yes. Does this mean you'll be competent to do so? Probably not. I can only speak from my own personal experience in saying that even after going fairly neuro-heavy in grad school and then completing a neuro-oriented internship, I've learned a fairly staggering amount just in the first year of postdoc to the extent that looking back, I don't feel I could've competently practice neuropsychology without the fellowship.

However, ABPP is currently (from what I know) trying to be fairly inclusive in their approval of two-year fellowships. Thus, even if it doesn't strictly meet Houston guidelines, there's a chance you'd still get the "ok" for boarding. This could potentially be more likely to happen if your grad program offered strong neuropsych training; if you didn't really get into neuro until internship, then even if ABPP approves your fellowship, I'd personally say you need to adhere to the Houston guidelines as closely as possible. You can always email the folks at ABPP (who've been very helpful in my interactions with them) to find out for sure, though.
 
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there is ABN, which requires 5 years of experience, passing a written, passing a work sample, and passing an oral. It is an option, albeit less prestigious.

you'll hear a lot of ABCNers talk smack about it, but the board has some quality diplomates such as Cecil Reynolds, John Meyers, etc.
 
I'd stick with ABPP-eligibility. There are a ton of jobs that really won't look at you if you aren't. You could do it some other piecemeal way, but I think you lose flexibility and stand the risk of having to defend your credentials at every step.
 
there is ABN, which requires 5 years of experience, passing a written, passing a work sample, and passing an oral. It is an option, albeit less prestigious.

you'll hear a lot of ABCNers talk smack about it, but the board has some quality diplomates such as Cecil Reynolds, John Meyers, etc.

I wish the "war of the boards" would end and the two would somehow merge, but unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

ABN does have some solid folks behind/with it, although I personally will be going with ABPP, as I want to do what I can to push for a single credential. Also, I support ABPP's explicit requirement of a postdoctoral fellowship and their adherence to the Houston guidelines.
 
To speak to the "competitive for a tenure track position"....no, not as a neuropsychologist. It is probably the most strict speciality area when it comes to training standards and hiring. Someone can carve out a niche pvt practice without much training (too many generalists play neuropsychologist already) but to be competitive for any neuropsych faculty position you need a formal fellowship and be ABPP board eligible. ABN would most likely be fine to meet a hospital's req. that all faculty be boarded, but you'd need to get hired by the dept, which most likely would nix any applicant w/o a formal two yr fellowship. The vast majority of people who go through a rigorous 2yr fellowship will be picky about anyone who didn't already have 20+ yrs experience and a proven track record of competence. Having the ABN credential would definitely help, but the lack of fellowship is a big red flag for most search committees.

FWIW...when I looked for a faculty position in rehabilitation psychology/neuropsychology, *every single one* had a requirement for a 2yr fellowship, board eligibility, and a deadline of how quickly you needed to be boarded to keep your job. It'd be an uphill battle for anyone who didn't come from a formal fellowship program bc you'd have to prove your training met the boarding requirements, which can eat up time and there are already enough hurdles related to the process. There really isn't (nor should there be) a backdoor into an academic position. There are dozens/hundreds of applicants for every halfway decent position out there that isn't in N. Dakota, so anything outside of the gold standard training would really hurt someone's competitiveness.
 
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ABN does have some solid folks behind/with it, although I personally will be going with ABPP, as I want to do what I can to push for a single credential. Also, I support ABPP's explicit requirement of a postdoctoral fellowship and their adherence to the Houston guidelines.

1000% agree.

I'm currently going through the ABPP process and while particular about training background and paperwork, I think their approach is what is best for the field in the long term. I understand how and why ABN happened, but all of the in-fighting is counterproductive. FWIW I think the ABN process is legitimate, but it makes unifying the field that much harder.
 
Interesting focus to this thread on the neuro training rather than the clinical training. A neuropsychologist professor- I just fully described above and previously-so won't repeat here-in a clinical program had no clinical training whatsoever. As I said, he had an experimental degree, some informal training in testing from a friend during a sabbatical year which he lists as a postdoc. Then he did some research on cognitive retraining-something he lists as another postdoc. Neither of these were considered clinical training by the host institutions-one of which did not realize it was hosting him (he was apparently working for his friend and doing his testing for him via informal arrangement not involving the institution formally). I suppose then he is eligible for the neuropsych designation-something he certainly uses. Odd that lack of clinical training has not been a problem for him.
 
Interesting focus to this thread on the neuro training rather than the clinical training. A neuropsychologist professor- I just fully described above and previously-so won't repeat here-in a clinical program had no clinical training whatsoever. As I said, he had an experimental degree, some informal training in testing from a friend during a sabbatical year which he lists as a postdoc. Then he did some research on cognitive retraining-something he lists as another postdoc. Neither of these were considered clinical training by the host institutions-one of which did not realize it was hosting him (he was apparently working for his friend and doing his testing for him via informal arrangement not involving the institution formally). I suppose then he is eligible for the neuropsych designation-something he certainly uses. Odd that lack of clinical training has not been a problem for him.

I believe you've mentioned this professor in other threads (unless I'm confusing myself), and yes, the "recertification" process he went through seems...odd to say the least. Personally, I'm surprised the state agreed to license this person, but it sounds like they must've been comfortable with whatever additional training it was he went through (unless he misrepresented himself and that training to the board, of course).

As for the focus on this thread, as has been mentioned on these forums before, neuropsychologists are clinical psychologists first, and so obtaining solid training in clinical psychology before/while pursuing specialty training is very important. However, given the fact that neuropsych is, at this point, a well-defined (and fairly unique) specialty, some of the particulars of training (which are less well-defined) can be confusing. Hence the focus of the current thread.
 
Can you confirm that he is actually licensed? Without clinical training, he would not be able to provide clinical services or supervision. However, he can be a researcher interested in neuropsychological topics. Most of these folks usually call themselves cognitive neuroscientists, experimental neuropsychologists, etc. That is fine, and most departments have one or two people like this on faculty who can provide great research training but do not have clinical responsibilities. However, if he markets himself as a clinical neuropsychologist it is unethical and a misrepresentation if what you say about his training is true. He also would be ineligible for board certification. You can read the guidelines here...http://www.theaacn.org/position_papers/houston_conference.pdf
 
AcronymAllergy, The neuropsychologist was already licensed. Some states, like the one I am in, for example, licenses psychologists. Anyone wanting to claim (advertise, etc) to be a psychologist (unless in an exempt setting-usually federal or state agency) even in experimental areas (say working in a private experimental physiology research lab) has to be licensed to call him/her self a psychologist. The material/evidence of training experiences submitted for licensure for experimental psychologists is different from that submitted for a clinical psychologist. Once it is conferred, the license does not stipulate the area of expertise. Someone with a degree in physiological psychology has the same license as a clinical psychologist. A year of conducting post doctoral research-say entailing surgery in rat brains-can easily look like the usual clinical internship. Likewise someone with a degree in animal learning-perhaps never having worked with humans at all-has the same license as a clinical psychologist. Once the person is licensed, they are expected to stay within their field of study but can extend their scope with appropriate training-but it is up to them to define what is appropriate. And when I say expected, I mean that the licensure board could care less what happens next. The key is that the licensed person is in charge of determining if they have the appropriate training. Lacking even one clinical class, this individual probably lacked perspective on what training entailed but also this person says he does what he wants and stops only if someone tells him to. Anyway, he arranged to do testing (under the supervision of a friend) during a sabbatical and nobody in his university monitored what that entailed. Likewise a later experience where he had funds to conduct research on something like "cognitive x,y,z". He was not in a training program to learn clinical skills but on his vita both these experiences show up as if they were formal training programs (post doctoral training at X institution-and X institution does have formal training program-he happened not be be in them). Strategically positioning "accredited clinical program" (something I called him on and has since been removed) next to where he got his degree (in an experimental field-even though he is correct that the university does offer a fine clinical program) made him look very qualified for consulting jobs in neuropsychology. To prevent him from accepting students interested in neuro but unable to get clinical training, a clinical program listed him as a member of the clinical area-with the caveat that he not supervise in the clinic. A few years later the caveat was forgotten. This kind of thing problem is what renders APA's evaluation of programs so absurd-in light of their ignoring the bigger problems of licensure. They micromanage whether or not a developmental class has enough life span material and ignore the fact that (in at least one state) someone with a degree requiring training in rat running can legally advertise themselves as a neuropsychologist a few years later. Naturally the circumstances surrounding the individual made such a scenario more or less likely. A newly minted female Assistant Professor would probably be called on (reported for ethics violations) the carpet for such deceptive conduct. In this particular program there are very few women.A male full professor, even when his conduct is known to be outrageous at times, tends to have much more support from male buddies on the faculty-all of whom are aware but unwilling to do anything but support him.I recall being astounded when he had one of his advisees consult with me about an MMPI that could not have been more straight forward but about which he was clueless.He was already supervising students in various placements! I don't think this situation is very unique. There are many states with similar licensure practices and many psychologists with similar ethics.
 
I'm lost. Experimentally trained psychs in your state have to get licensed? "Licensed"...to do what exactly? Be a professor? Conduct research?

How would a phyisological psychologist pass the EPPP? 80% of is applied stuff that they never would have learned/been trained in.
 
This situation evolved in an interesting way. Initially other faculty members were satisfied with the idea that he would just be involved in "neuropsychological testing" as if it were ok with everyone that he was qualified to supervise testing but not to supervise "clinical work". I believe they felt that his background in nonclinical areas but that included courses in psychophysiology and neurology qualified him to interpret test findings. He was/is not qualified to supervise testing and testing is "clinical work". The distinction is not testing vs clinical work since obviously clinical skills are needed for all aspects of testing. I don't know if he was qualified to review and interpret testing results-but clearly not qualified to suupervise testing conducted by students (or to practice himself) .
 
AcronymAllergy, The neuropsychologist was already licensed. Some states, like the one I am in, for example, licenses psychologists. Anyone wanting to claim (advertise, etc) to be a psychologist (unless in an exempt setting-usually federal or state agency) even in experimental areas (say working in a private experimental physiology research lab) has to be licensed to call him/her self a psychologist. The material/evidence of training experiences submitted for licensure for experimental psychologists is different from that submitted for a clinical psychologist. Once it is conferred, the license does not stipulate the area of expertise. Someone with a degree in physiological psychology has the same license as a clinical psychologist. A year of conducting post doctoral research-say entailing surgery in rat brains-can easily look like the usual clinical internship. Likewise someone with a degree in animal learning-perhaps never having worked with humans at all-has the same license as a clinical psychologist. Once the person is licensed, they are expected to stay within their field of study but can extend their scope with appropriate training-but it is up to them to define what is appropriate. And when I say expected, I mean that the licensure board could care less what happens next. The key is that the licensed person is in charge of determining if they have the appropriate training. Lacking even one clinical class, this individual probably lacked perspective on what training entailed but also this person says he does what he wants and stops only if someone tells him to. Anyway, he arranged to do testing (under the supervision of a friend) during a sabbatical and nobody in his university monitored what that entailed. Likewise a later experience where he had funds to conduct research on something like "cognitive x,y,z". He was not in a training program to learn clinical skills but on his vita both these experiences show up as if they were formal training programs (post doctoral training at X institution-and X institution does have formal training program-he happened not be be in them). Strategically positioning "accredited clinical program" (something I called him on and has since been removed) next to where he got his degree (in an experimental field-even though he is correct that the university does offer a fine clinical program) made him look very qualified for consulting jobs in neuropsychology. To prevent him from accepting students interested in neuro but unable to get clinical training, a clinical program listed him as a member of the clinical area-with the caveat that he not supervise in the clinic. A few years later the caveat was forgotten. This kind of thing problem is what renders APA's evaluation of programs so absurd-in light of their ignoring the bigger problems of licensure. They micromanage whether or not a developmental class has enough life span material and ignore the fact that (in at least one state) someone with a degree requiring training in rat running can legally advertise themselves as a neuropsychologist a few years later. Naturally the circumstances surrounding the individual made such a scenario more or less likely. A newly minted female Assistant Professor would probably be called on (reported for ethics violations) the carpet for such deceptive conduct. In this particular program there are very few women.A male full professor, even when his conduct is known to be outrageous at times, tends to have much more support from male buddies on the faculty-all of whom are aware but unwilling to do anything but support him.I recall being astounded when he had one of his advisees consult with me about an MMPI that could not have been more straight forward but about which he was clueless.He was already supervising students in various placements! I don't think this situation is very unique. There are many states with similar licensure practices and many psychologists with similar ethics.

Wow, I don't know if I can really blame the APA for this one; sounds like the state licensing board has seriously dropped the ball in this case. Every state into which I've looked (albeit only a handful) stipulates that licensure as a psychologist requires clinical training, and is thus restricted to those with degrees in clinical, counseling, or school psych. Academics "get around" this by the state law saying that the protection of the term "psychologist" doesn't apply to strictly academic settings and/or when the person is using the term in a clearly academic (i.e., non-clinical) sense. I'd be interested to hear if there really were multiple states that actually required all psychologists, rather than just those practicing psychology with patients/clients, to be licensed. Seems like a potentially HUGE waste of resources, and makes me think no wonder they aren't policing folks after licensures...A) there are probably too many to police, and B) they're using all their resources just in wading through all the applications (unless they just rubber-stamp folks and use the whole licensure application process as one big source of revenue generation).

In this person's case, it most definitely sounds like he's unqualified to be practicing clinically to begin with, let alone in a further subspecialty such as neuropsych (although this is of course all based only on what I've heard here). And yes, his compatriots who know about this and haven't done/said anything share good portions of the blame, especially if they have concerns about his competence.
 
Erg 923. If someone with a PhD in experimental psychology (any area) wants to circulate a business card that says Psychologist-perhaps to get a job in a pharmaceutical company conducting research on the metabolism of x agent-he/she needs a license. The term 'Psychologist" is a protected term. You can not call yourself a psychologist in these states unless you are licensed even if you never intend to do anything applied/clinical. The only exceptions are those working in exempt settings-usually federal or state agencies. Even someone with a PhD in animal learning but who wants to advertise as an animal training psychologist must be licensed. Anyone working in private industry who use the term Psychologist must be licensed. There are many psychologists employed, sometimes as consultants, in various research and/or commercial enterprises. Regardless of whether they ever "work with people" If they want to consider themselves (advertise, promote themselves as...) a Psychologist, they need to be licensed. In some states, the license does not differ by specialty (phsio, animal learning, clinical, etc) even though different specialties require different training experiences. Once, licensed, the psychologist is free to do any sort of work (with the presumption that everyone will conduct themselves in an ethical manner and not practice outside their scope of expertise).
 
AcronymAllergy, actually the distinction is not whether or not the the setting is academic. The distinction is whether or not the setting is exempt or not. Exempt settings are usual federal and state agencies. The rationale for allowing state and federal agencies a pass is that they are the ones that set the criteria for defining the term "Psychologist" so if they deem someone qualified for a particular role, they are , de facto, qualified as they set the criteria. I believe that in the state that I am talking about, you must be licensed to call yourself a psychologist if you teach in a private college/university. Not 100% certain though.
 
But even in a state or federal agency, misrepresentation is never ok. And, supervising students in private agencies, if billing is done by a nonprofit rather than by the state facility, is not ok. And, most importantly, practicing in areas outside your area of specialty without appropriate training is never ok.
 
Erg 923. If someone with a PhD in experimental psychology (any area) wants to circulate a business card that says Psychologist-perhaps to get a job in a pharmaceutical company conducting research on the metabolism of x agent-he/she needs a license. The term 'Psychologist" is a protected term. You can not call yourself a psychologist in these states unless you are licensed even if you never intend to do anything applied/clinical. The only exceptions are those working in exempt settings-usually federal or state agencies. Even someone with a PhD in animal learning but who wants to advertise as an animal training psychologist must be licensed. Anyone working in private industry who use the term Psychologist must be licensed. There are many psychologists employed, sometimes as consultants, in various research and/or commercial enterprises. Regardless of whether they ever "work with people" If they want to consider themselves (advertise, promote themselves as...) a Psychologist, they need to be licensed. In some states, the license does not differ by specialty (phsio, animal learning, clinical, etc) even though different specialties require different training experiences. Once, licensed, the psychologist is free to do any sort of work (with the presumption that everyone will conduct themselves in an ethical manner and not practice outside their scope of expertise).

They have to take and pass the EPPP, I assume?

This seems dumb.

I guess whats tripping me up is that in my state, as in most other states that i know, you have to have a certain amount of training hours documented, as well as certain mandatory (applied) coursework. Many states require additional clinical training post-doctorally before even ebing eligible to apply for licensure.
 
They have to take and pass the EPPP, I assume?

This seems dumb.

I guess whats tripping me up is that in my state, as in most other states that i know, you have to have a certain amount of training hours documented, as well as certain mandatory (applied) coursework. Many states require additional clinical training post-doctorally before even ebing eligible to apply for licensure.

This is the case in every state I've looked into as well, and when I mentioned "academic settings" above, that's actually exactly (as best I can remember) what the state laws stipulated--that restriction of the term "psychologist" would not preclude folks in academic-only settings from using it to describe themselves without being licensed. Thus, the only folks qualified and required to be licensed as psychologists are those practicing or who would potentially like to practice in some type of clinical/patient-oriented capacity.

The exemption for federal agencies I believe is based in federal law. Basically, it allows folks who work for federal government agencies to be licensed in any state so long as they're practicing on federal grounds and/or as an official part of their job.

Edit: Here's an example of a portion of an exemption clause similar to what I've been describing...

...Teaching of psychology or the conduct of psychological research, provided that such teaching or research does not involve the delivery or supervision of direct psychological services to individuals or groups of individuals by an unlicensed person. Any person holding a doctoral degree in psychology while working as an employee in a research laboratory, college, or university recognized by the board as meeting satisfactory accreditation standards may use the title "psychologist" in conjunction with activities permitted by this paragraph, provided that no fees are charged directly to clients or through a third party...
 
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