neurosurgery hopeful

[giguerex35]

hey all i know this is probably a bit premature but I am a first year very interested in neurosurgery and had a few questions I was hoping those who are already in the field could help with. First off I am a DO student so I already am aware of the BS that comes with that when it comes it competitive specialties like neurosurgery. That being said I want to be one of the handful of DOs that match each year so my questions for you are as follows:

What would you recommend that I be doing in year one & year two? I know step 1 is the most important factor but what else could I be doing to help myself?
As far as research goes there is not a ton of opportunities at the school I go to for neuro research so should I do other research not related to the field or would that be a waste?
Also, I have been trying to establish a relationship with a known to be DO friendly neurosurgery residency by asking to do research/shadow over the summer, my question to you all is how would you recommend that I go about doing this the proper way? Do i just email the PD and ask? call? etc.
Finally any other tips you may have that would be helpful especially any tips you have for step 1 preparation I would love to hear it. Thanks for the help

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[libertyyne]

Neurosurgery is not DO friendly. You should be looking towards historically DO programs that are now ACGME there are a couple IIRC and these are the Neurosurgery matches you are thinking about. Reach out to residents at those programs and get their input on what you need to do to match there.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You need very high Step and COMLEX scores. You absolutely need multiple publications that are neurosurgery specific. You need to be top of your class. You need to be going to conferences and networking throughout all 4 years of medical school. You absolutely need to audition at every former DO program that made the merger. You will likely need a research year with a neurosurgery department to make connections and get the publications you need. You will need connections that are willing to go to bat for you. Lastly, you need to have a back up plan, and you need to accept that even if you do all of the above things there is a high chance you won't get to be a neurosurgeon. There are only 4 DO neurosurgery programs that made the merger, and one of them is the Carilion Clinic which will now be VTech's home program. They will likely still consider DO applicants but you will most assuredly be competing with excellent MDs for their 1 spot.

For reference with scores one applicant I am aware of last year that matched MD neurosurgery had almost an 800 COMLEX and was close to 270 on Step. They were number 1 in their class.

Also, I have been trying to establish a relationship with a known to be DO friendly neurosurgery residency by asking to do research/shadow over the summer, my question to you all is how would you recommend that I go about doing this the proper way? Do i just email the PD and ask? call? etc.
Finally any other tips you may have that would be helpful especially any tips you have for step 1 preparation I would love to hear it. Thanks for the help

Email the program coordinator.

 

[giguerex35]

You need very high Step and COMLEX scores. You absolutely need multiple publications that are neurosurgery specific. You need to be top of your class. You need to be going to conferences and networking throughout all 4 years of medical school. You absolutely need to audition at every former DO program that made the merger. You will likely need a research year with a neurosurgery department to make connections and get the publications you need. You will need connections that are willing to go to bat for you. Lastly, you need to have a back up plan, and you need to accept that even if you do all of the above things there is a high chance you won't get to be a neurosurgeon. There are only 4 DO neurosurgery programs that made the merger, and one of them is the Carilion Clinic which will now be VTech's home program. They will likely still consider DO applicants but you will most assuredly be competing with excellent MDs for their 1 spot.

For reference with scores one applicant I am aware of last year that matched MD neurosurgery had almost an 800 COMLEX and was close to 270 on Step. They were number 1 in their class.



Email the program coordinator.

thanks for the help. as far as back up plan Ive read that there is a gen surgery to neurosurgery path you can also do if you dont match directly into neurosurgery do you know how this process works

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

thanks for the help. as far as back up plan Ive read that there is a gen surgery to neurosurgery path you can also do if you dont match directly into neurosurgery do you know how this process works

That doesn't exist.... I've never heard of it anyway.

 

[libertyyne]

thanks for the help. as far as back up plan Ive read that there is a gen surgery to neurosurgery path you can also do if you dont match directly into neurosurgery do you know how this process works

There is no such thing as a gen surg to neurosurg path.

 

[giguerex35]

That doesn't exist.... I've never heard of it anyway.

ok thanks for the help, one last question if you dont mind, ive looked into cardio-thoracic surgery as well but unless I am wrong it is not its own residency perhaps I confused the gen surgery to neuro with cardiothoracic surgery so is there a gen surgery to cardiothoracic or am I just wrong again

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

ok thanks for the help, one last question if you dont mind, ive looked into cardio-thoracic surgery as well but unless I am wrong it is not its own residency perhaps I confused the gen surgery to neuro with cardiothoracic surgery so is there a gen surgery to cardiothoracic or am I just wrong again

No you're right. CT can be matched as an integrated residency directly from medical school or a fellowship after general surgery

 

[giguerex35]

No you're right. CT can be matched as an integrated residency directly from medical school or a fellowship after general surgery

ok thank you. I was looking at match data and it seems like integrated spots are very competitive becasue theres not a ton in the first place and unless I read it incorrectly it said there were no osteopathic students that matched integrated CT. Do you know where I could find data or perhaps if you know how competitive it is to get a fellowship after gen surgery as a DO (i imagine it is not easy but on a scale of FM to derm just how hard it is) thanks again for the help just trying to see what im up against before its too late

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

ok thank you. I was looking at match data and it seems like integrated spots are very competitive becasue theres not a ton in the first place and unless I read it incorrectly it said there were no osteopathic students that matched integrated CT. Do you know where I could find data or perhaps if you know how competitive it is to get a fellowship after gen surgery as a DO (i imagine it is not easy but on a scale of FM to derm just how hard it is) thanks again for the help just trying to see what im up against before its too late

Like how competitive it is to get a CT fellowship after GS or just any fellowship? CT is moderately competitive from what I hear but not nearly the level of onc or peds. There is a senior at our little DO program who just match to B&W’s for CT fellowship, so take that for what it’s worth.

Yeah integrated CT is extremely competitive. I believe last year there were no DOs but it’s happened before. The ones that do it from what I’ve seen all did one of those CT research programs the summer after M1. Like the paid kind you have to apply for through the specialty college.

I would maybe suggest looking at applying to something like that for neurosurgery if you are serious about pursuing neurosurgery.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Find a nearby low tier md school with a neurosurg department. Excel as outlined above for the first year or two and really build a strong relationship with that program. Try to transfer to that md program if you can. It is rare but if you truly excelled then it might be possible. Even if you can't your most likely match will be that program other than traditionally DO programs.

 

[Tgfu34]

Sorry to piggy-back off of this thread, but how much do pre-clinical grades factor into being competitive for matching neurosurgery? My school does not do P/F nor do they rank. I’ve heard from many that pre-clinical grades really don’t matter (as in, don’t need 90+ in everything) and just crush STEP/COMLEX, but I’ve also heard that it matters for the hyper-competitive specialties.

 

[libertyyne]

Sorry to piggy-back off of this thread, but how much do pre-clinical grades factor into being competitive for matching neurosurgery? My school does not do P/F nor do they rank. I’ve heard from many that pre-clinical grades really don’t matter (as in, don’t need 90+ in everything) and just crush STEP/COMLEX, but I’ve also heard that it matters for the hyper-competitive specialties.

If your school does not rank , nor does it assign grades , how would a residency program even know what your grades were?
Just dont fail anything, also make sure your school doesnt break you out into quartiles or deciles preclinically or internally rank.

 

[DokterMom]

Sorry to piggy-back off of this thread, but how much do pre-clinical grades factor into being competitive for matching neurosurgery? My school does not do P/F nor do they rank. I’ve heard from many that pre-clinical grades really don’t matter (as in, don’t need 90+ in everything) and just crush STEP/COMLEX, but I’ve also heard that it matters for the hyper-competitive specialties.

If you're at an MD school, AOA might factor in grades even if they're not otherwise awarded, but the real reason to care about your pre-clinical grades is because they're a pretty good indicator of how well you're preparing for STEPs. Doing well in your pre-clinicals also helps establishe your reputation as a serious and capable student, which may precede you to some of your clinical sites and could easily give you a 'tiebreaker' tip to honors.

 

[Tgfu34]

If you're at an MD school, AOA might factor in grades even if they're not otherwise awarded, but the real reason to care about your pre-clinical grades is because they're a pretty good indicator of how well you're preparing for STEPs. Doing well in your pre-clinicals also helps establishe your reputation as a serious and capable student, which may precede you to some of your clinical sites and could easily give you a 'tiebreaker' tip to honors.

Thank you for the insight. I attend a DO school as well and I wanted to make sure that a slight decrease in my pre-clinical grades won’t be frowned upon as long as performance on STEP/COMLEX are where it needs to be, along with research.

 

[Tgfu34]

If your school does not rank , nor does it assign grades , how would a residency program even know what your grades were?
Just dont fail anything, also make sure your school doesnt break you out into quartiles or deciles preclinically or internally rank.

Thank you for the reply. I am almost positive that they don’t do internal ranking/quartiles but I would have to double check.