New 5 years to Cardiology??

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cfdavid

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Anyone heard of any real discussion regarding making Cards into a 5 year residency versus the current 6??

I read there have been discussions going on at high levels (in response to massive pending shortages) of making it a 2 year IM, then 1 year general cardiology, then another 2 years of "clinical cardiology", thus totalling 5 yrs.

Anyone hear anything? I realize that many such initiatives generated by focus groups tend not to be actually implemented.

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cfdavid said:
Anyone heard of any real discussion regarding making Cards into a 5 year residency versus the current 6??

I read there have been discussions going on at high levels (in response to massive pending shortages) of making it a 2 year IM, then 1 year general cardiology, then another 2 years of "clinical cardiology", thus totalling 5 yrs.

Anyone hear anything? I realize that many such initiatives generated by focus groups tend not to be actually implemented.

it'll happen...the question is when. probably not anytime soon though.

3 years of interal medicine is a waste of time for a practicing cardiologist.
 
tibor75 said:
it'll happen...the question is when. probably not anytime soon though.

3 years of interal medicine is a waste of time for a practicing cardiologist.

so tell us what you REALLY think of your IM residency at Mayo? :meanie:
 
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Well, I start MS1 in 6 weeks. I hope something happens quickly!
 
cfdavid said:
Anyone heard of any real discussion regarding making Cards into a 5 year residency versus the current 6??

I read there have been discussions going on at high levels (in response to massive pending shortages) of making it a 2 year IM, then 1 year general cardiology, then another 2 years of "clinical cardiology", thus totalling 5 yrs.

Anyone hear anything? I realize that many such initiatives generated by focus groups tend not to be actually implemented.

Um, making the training shorter will, by itself, have no effect on the rate of cardiologists entering the workforce each year. If you make a water pipe shorter, the rate of flow will NOT increase.

Now, if that change attracts more applicants to the field, or increases the number of available spots (to keep coverage similar), or something else, then that's a different story. But my impression was that few cardiology spots go unfilled as it is...
 
sdnetrocks said:
Um, making the training shorter will, by itself, have no effect on the rate of cardiologists entering the workforce each year. If you make a water pipe shorter, the rate of flow will NOT increase.

Now, if that change attracts more applicants to the field, or increases the number of available spots (to keep coverage similar), or something else, then that's a different story. But my impression was that few cardiology spots go unfilled as it is...

The paper I read indicated a need to open up more slots. As well as arguing that it may make it a more attractive field.
 
So what are the chances of this happening within the next year???
 
Columbia22 said:
So what are the chances of this happening within the next year???

to quote dumb and dumber "more like one in a million"
 
exmike said:
to quote dumb and dumber "more like one in a million"

also to quote dumb and dumber, "So you're telling me there's a chance!"
 
While it does not directly address the specific point, the 20 June 2006 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine has two position articles (the ACP and the Assoc of Program Directors in IM) and then an editorial-type piece discussing the issue and the two papers.

I haven't read them closely, just skimmed them really, but the conclusions and recommendations they made were very much supporting a full three year IM residency; increased exposure to specialties in medical school; changes in program administration, curriculum, funding, and a more robust integration of in-pt and ambulatory care with healthcare teams and mid-level practitioners incorporated more than they are currently; and an increased attention to faculty and hospitalists as mentors to med students and residents.

They are very focused on training clinician-teachers (which makes sense), while leaving the research and specialty-oriented procedures and such to the physician-scientists and sub-specialists, respectively. To directly address the thread subject, they all three call for a continued IM residency of 3 yrs. Their reasoning is far better elaborated upon in the journal, so I will leave them to that (I felt it to be very substantial for the amount that I skimmed). It is also mentioned/suggested that sub-specialty programs remove some research time to thin down the time frame of their program, leaving the resulting lab space and time to physician-scientists. This is not the first time I've heard comments resembling this. The MD/PhD-DO/PhD programs seem to be having a harder time and the programs would like to refocus graduates clinically and research-wise. Makes some sense, but I don't know the slightest bit other than what I just wrote.

It appears to make sense. I really don't agree with the suggestion made by some that Cardiology (for instance) should become a 5 yr residency or that IM should be shortened for the sake of the fellowship. First, this will not increase the number of cardiologists soon or drastically enough, the programs will be shorter, but the same number will come through each year. In addition, from the clinical and practical standpoint, what is needed is a general clinical cardiologist. Not EP, interventional, nuclear, etc. A general and clinical cardiologist will need a thorough and firm background in medicine. All of medicine. Even that point aside, a graduate physician who has had a 2 yr residency (internship + 1yr) might be more inclined to further specialize in those sought after sub-fellowships, leaving general cardiology, where that doctor would be need more, according to projected statistics.

This is a much longer post than I meant, so I'll leave it here. To be honest, while I do think they have good ideas and I support them so far that I understand them, I am extremely interested in cardiology (esp HF and EP) and research, so the result will likely affect me.

Hopefully the articles will be noticed. As for the rest of the text...I'm an MS1, don't be too hard on me. 😳
 
Would shortening a residency or fellowship increase the number of graduates per year? I think it actually might. If a residency or fellowship needs 50 trainees to run it's service, and it's a 3-year program, that gives 16-17 trainees per year who will enter and graduate. Now, if the length of training were only two years, and they still needed 50 trainees to run their service that would give 25 slots per year to fill and 25 grads per year.
 
Adcadet said:
Would shortening a residency or fellowship increase the number of graduates per year? I think it actually might. If a residency or fellowship needs 50 trainees to run it's service, and it's a 3-year program, that gives 16-17 trainees per year who will enter and graduate. Now, if the length of training were only two years, and they still needed 50 trainees to run their service that would give 25 slots per year to fill and 25 grads per year.

I think the logic of one of the other posters that said it would not increase output was based upon the assumption that the same # of docs would be exiting the program, whether it be a 5 or 6 year length. And, without increasing the actual number of slots, output would not change by shortening the program.

You make a good point here in looking at the number required to run a program. But, I think the assumption is that the number of 1st year fellows would be the same, and therefore, the total number of people manning a program would actually decrease if it went to 5 years. So, output wouldn't change unless more year 1 fellowship positions increased.
 
cfdavid said:
The paper I read indicated a need to open up more slots. As well as arguing that it may make it a more attractive field.

sorry to burst your bubble, but it's just not happening anytime soon. 😳

1. the ACC publication was in reference to the shortage of GENERAL clinical cardiologists in the face of an aging population and increased demand. further, only 13% of cards fellows are interesting in a general clinical practice.

2. fast track will not change the minds of 87% of cards fellows who want to subspecialize. good luck trying to implement an up-front commitment!

3. cardiology is ALREADY an attractive field.

4. most IM programs will not be willing to let go of a sizable fraction of senior residents early.

4. most IM PDs question the prudence of shortening IM training for cards for many reasons. the cardiology patient population is getting older (and more complicated). many systemic conditions manifest in heart disease. try dealing with the spectrum of disease in the CCU without being confident in your medicine (IM consult? for shame!).

again, sorry folks. 😀
 
Qtip96 said:
4. most IM PDs question the prudence of shortening IM training for cards for many reasons. the cardiology patient population is getting older (and more complicated). many systemic conditions manifest in heart disease. try dealing with the spectrum of disease in the CCU without being confident in your medicine (IM consult? for shame!).

again, sorry folks. 😀

You really think a cardiology attending who last training in IM 20 years ago and who bascially does a crash-course in IM every 10 years to pass the IM boards, would be that much better in IM than somebody who fast-tracks into cardiology?

Medicine changes so fast and cardiologists are busy enough in keeping up with cardiology that they don't have any time to keep up w/ medicine. So, basically those 3 years were a waste of time.
 
tibor75 said:
You really think a cardiology attending who last training in IM 20 years ago and who bascially does a crash-course in IM every 10 years to pass the IM boards, would be that much better in IM than somebody who fast-tracks into cardiology?

Medicine changes so fast and cardiologists are busy enough in keeping up with cardiology that they don't have any time to keep up w/ medicine. So, basically those 3 years were a waste of time.

yes.. yes.. we know what you think of clinical skills...

tibor75 said:
PE skills are on the decline because they simply aren't that useful anymore.

Physicians are smart people. They allow skills to erode which aren't very important anymore.

I'm willing to bet the physical exam skills of most cardiologists isn't much better than medicine attendings. And will continue to get worse as the years go on.

tibor75 said:
it's quite common sense that physical diagnosis skills have little if anything to do with being a good or great physician.

you should just stick to reading RV strain on ECHOs and leave patient care to others. :meanie:
 
tibor75 said:
You really think a cardiology attending who last training in IM 20 years ago and who bascially does a crash-course in IM every 10 years to pass the IM boards, would be that much better in IM than somebody who fast-tracks into cardiology?

Medicine changes so fast and cardiologists are busy enough in keeping up with cardiology that they don't have any time to keep up w/ medicine. So, basically those 3 years were a waste of time.

It'd be nice if one of those programs opens up soon. I love cards, but hate IM.
 
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