[[ New ]] - Another Criminal Record Question -

[danitydarling84]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post –
I’ve scanned the other post similar to my own, however my circumstances seem to be different.

When I was 17 years old, I fell into the cycle of domestic violence with a former boyfriend. One morning our fight turned violent and bite him because I couldn’t breathe. That would make him more angry, he’d let go, catch me and it would start again. My mother woke up to this argument and called the police. She told him to leave and got into the floor with me. The police arrived we told them what happened and that he had left, they started to leave and they discovered him hiding on my porch, we were all arrested, him and myself for criminal domestic violence (CDV) and my mother for lying to a police officer. I paid a fine and I was let go, he was suppose to pay and fine as well however they gave him 30 days and he fled the state.
Afterward we broke up and he began living in a neighboring apartment complex, but still had a key to my house. He broke into my house and stole some very expensive items (we have a police report to prove that ) I went over there to try and get my things and it turned into another fight and the neighbors door was mangled and I was charged with malicious property damage, Because I was never arrested I didn’t know I was pleading guilty to a criminal charge, I thought I was just agreeing to pay the 100 dollars and move on with my life.
When I turned 18 I got two felony charges. One for possession for a stolen vehicle and the other for forgery. The charges were dropped due to the documentation that I had signed by the “victim” proving my side of the case.
Given the fact I have been convicted of two misdemeanors, and have two dropped felonies on my record is being a surgeon out of the question? I cannot expunge my CDV because I have been charged with malicious property damage, maybe I could get a pardon but it is unlikely, I plan to consult a lawyer later on.
Would having a violent offense stop me from working in a hospital? That is my real concern. By the time I finish medical school it will have been 12 years later, I also plan to go to counseling, and do volunteer work at domestic violence shelters to try and show I’m rehabilitated.

Thanks for reading my really long post. I tried to bold the important stuff so you don’t have to read it all unless you want too. I think I will get better advice if the details are known.

 

[link2swim06]

I think it will be difficult to secure a license with those charges.

With one charge its much easier to argue that it was a mistake. With multiple charges, something is seriously wrong. Most people go their entire life without any misdemeanors or felonies. You have been charged with several (even if it was a long time ago).

I'd suggest another career (sorry, not the answer you want to hear).

 

[danitydarling84]

No its not lol, I'm going to major in computer sciences and use my elective classes to qualify for med school. I appreciate your input, but I'm going to take my chances, with the growth rate for the health care field I don't think they will turn down someone who is qualified to do the job - plenty of people have trouble at some point in their lives.
Not to mention in the state of georgia, and a numerous amount of other states they are not allowed to check your background when you apply for your license. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm
Considering the felonies were dropped due to it being a false report, and the other charges are coupled together, depending on the application I may not even need to say anything about the felonies.

 

[evilbooyaa]

No its not lol, I'm going to major in computer sciences and use my elective classes to qualify for med school. I appreciate your input, but I'm going to take my chances, with the growth rate for the health care field I don't think they will turn down someone who is qualified to do the job - plenty of people have trouble at some point in their lives.
Not to mention in the state of georgia, and a numerous amount of other states they are not allowed to check your background when you apply for your license. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm
Considering the felonies were dropped due to it being a false report, and the other charges are coupled together, depending on the application I may not even need to say anything about the felonies.

Although they may not check when they license you, they sure will check when they consider letting you into medical school.

If it shows up anywhere in your records, be prepared to talk about it. People make mistakes but they will want to see that you are open and have moved on from that sort of behavior (this is assuming that they care enough to even listen to you)

 

[VenusinFurs]

I don't think the dropped charges for car theft/ forgery should factor in (not sure?) but there is a place on the application to list why you have these things on your record. I would be sympathetic if I were on an admissions committee (which I'm not) because this was obviously at a very turbulent time of your life when you were still an adolescent and it's ridiculous to assume you haven't moved on from that. But you have to list everything (I'd talk to a lawyer for sure to see if you should list the dropped charges for felonies; I believe the application only states that you need to list charges you have been convicted of) and use the space provided to explain the charges. I don't think these things would necessarily keep you out of medical school but they might create hoops for you to jump through when you are applying for your medical license.

 

[dally1025]

I appreciate your input, but I'm going to take my chances, with the growth rate for the health care field I don't think they will turn down someone who is qualified to do the job.

They turn down thousands of people qualified to do the job every year without a criminal record. You've got a reason that makes it easier for them to turn you down. Is it completely fair, probably not, but that's reality. Yes, the medical field is rapidly expanding but the admission rate to medical school/residency isn't keeping up. It doesn't hurt to try but try to be realistic and have a back up plan.

 

[Consigliere]

No its not lol, I'm going to major in computer sciences and use my elective classes to qualify for med school. I appreciate your input, but I'm going to take my chances, with the growth rate for the health care field I don't think they will turn down someone who is qualified to do the job - plenty of people have trouble at some point in their lives.
Not to mention in the state of georgia, and a numerous amount of other states they are not allowed to check your background when you apply for your license. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm
Considering the felonies were dropped due to it being a false report, and the other charges are coupled together, depending on the application I may not even need to say anything about the felonies.

Oh yes they can, and they will. I agree that most people have SOME trouble at some point in their lives, but 2 felonies?!? You seem a bit unstable from a psychological standpoint. I'm not sure you could survive the mental rigors that medical education and training will throw at you. Pursue another career as you are wasting your time pursuing a career in medicine.

 

[loveoforganic2]

Oh yes they can, and they will. I agree that most people have SOME trouble at some point in their lives, but 2 felonies?!? You seem a bit unstable from a psychological standpoint. I'm not sure you could survive the mental rigors that medical education and training will throw at you. Pursue another career as you are wasting your time pursuing a career in medicine.

I don't have any charges or whatnot, but just curious - doesn't it seem rather unfair for licensing committees to factor in dropped charges? I think even in med school apps it asked about "all arrests" or some such, but again, that seems like an extremely unfair measure of qualification (or lack thereof in this case) to be a physician

 

[Consigliere]

I don't have any charges or whatnot, but just curious - doesn't it seem rather unfair for licensing committees to factor in dropped charges? I think even in med school apps it asked about "all arrests" or some such, but again, that seems like an extremely unfair measure of qualification (or lack thereof in this case) to be a physician

"Fairness" doesn't factor into the equation. If you are on the admissions committee, and you have thousands of applications, all with similar credentials, are you really going to select someone with the history that the OP reports? Hell no........you'll pick one without a "history."

 

[loveoforganic2]

"Fairness" doesn't factor into the equation. If you are on the admissions committee, and you have thousands of applications, all with similar credentials, are you really going to select someone with the history that the OP reports? Hell no........you'll pick one without a "history."

I understand the perspective of an admissions committee (and this is how I would operate in their shoes too.. no reason to take the risk). What I specifically had in mind was this quote

I think it will be difficult to secure a license with those charges.

in the first reply to this thread. If this is indeed the case, that's what seems particularly unjust to me. A school made the decision to take the student, the student made it through - I feel like there shouldn't be a barrier to licensing at this point

I'm not looking for an argument, just your (more experienced) opinion 🙂

 

[DrSnips]

I understand the perspective of an admissions committee (and this is how I would operate in their shoes too.. no reason to take the risk). What I specifically had in mind was this quote



in the first reply to this thread. If this is indeed the case, that's what seems particularly unjust to me. A school made the decision to take the student, the student made it through - I feel like there shouldn't be a barrier to licensing at this point

I'm not looking for an argument, just your (more experienced) opinion 🙂

Why shouldn't there be a barrier at that point? The state you are going to practice in is a separate entity from your med school. They can make their own determinations on whether to grant licenses (and will).

 

[loveoforganic2]

Why shouldn't there be a barrier at that point? The state you are going to practice in is a separate entity from your med school. They can make their own determinations on whether to grant licenses (and will).

I think I already said why I feel there shouldn't be a barrier - the individual was never shown to have actually done anything wrong. Wrongful arrests happen - the court system determines whether the arrest and charge were valid. Why should a wrongful arrest be a barrier to licensure? I didn't say they can't make it a barrier, I said they shouldn't

Again, never been arrested or charged with anything, only been pulled over once (and let go unticketed). Have no stake in the game

 

[music2doc]

No its not lol, I'm going to major in computer sciences and use my elective classes to qualify for med school. I appreciate your input, but I'm going to take my chances, with the growth rate for the health care field I don't think they will turn down someone who is qualified to do the job - plenty of people have trouble at some point in their lives.
Not to mention in the state of georgia, and a numerous amount of other states they are not allowed to check your background when you apply for your license. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm
Considering the felonies were dropped due to it being a false report, and the other charges are coupled together, depending on the application I may not even need to say anything about the felonies.

Have you looked at the numbers? Even the "weaker" MD and DO programs turn down scores of stunningly qualified applicants every year. It's not a question of whether or not they will "turn down someone" like you. It's a matter of whether or not they will turn a highly qualified applicant down to accept you! There simply are not enough spots to accept even half of the people who apply. What makes you better than the other 5,840 applicants that the school is rejecting or waitlisting? Why would they even bother to interview you? Those are the questions you really have to ask. When people ask whether or not they can be accepted despite something, they are really asking the wrong question.

As for licensing... I don't know the specifics for MDs, but I would think having DV on your record would make it very difficult to become licensed. I know that in my state, you would probably not be able to be licensed at the EMS level because the state licensing board can (and will) pull up dropped charges (and DV; sexual, child, or elder abuse; and a few others are pretty much automatic disqualification for licensure).

I don't have any charges or whatnot, but just curious - doesn't it seem rather unfair for licensing committees to factor in dropped charges? I think even in med school apps it asked about "all arrests" or some such, but again, that seems like an extremely unfair measure of qualification (or lack thereof in this case) to be a physician

Sure, if the charges were dropped because you didn't actually do it! Unfortunately, we have this whole "drop the first offense" thing that makes people who actually got falsely accused look as bad as those who were simply acquitted for having a good lawyer and doing a hundred hours of community service.... 🙄

 

[VenusinFurs]

I think I already said why I feel there shouldn't be a barrier - the individual was never shown to have actually done anything wrong. Wrongful arrests happen - the court system determines whether the arrest and charge were valid. Why should a wrongful arrest be a barrier to licensure? I didn't say they can't make it a barrier, I said they shouldn't

Again, never been arrested or charged with anything, only been pulled over once (and let go unticketed). Have no stake in the game

Getting tickets has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your employability or entrance to professional school or licensing. Unless you refused to pay them or show up for court and then there's a warrant out for you or something.

 

[loveoforganic2]

I was just making a point, but that's an outrage. These speeders and change-lane-in-intersectioners are a danger to patient care if they exercise that poor judgement

 

[loveoforganic2]

Yes I'm kidding

 

[VenusinFurs]

I ran a red light once.

It was pretty embarrassing.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[iave9963]

Given the fact I have been convicted of two misdemeanors, and have two dropped felonies on my record is being a surgeon out of the question?
Would having a violent offense stop me from working in a hospital?

Honestly, no one on this thread can answer that question, but the adcom. People are saying give up and find another career, but do they work on the admissions committee? NO. Apply anyway and see what happens. The outcome could be good, or it could be bad, at least you tried. Also I think volunteering is a great idea. Good luck 🙂

 

[Pattycake25]

EDIT: The following only applies to medical school applications. I do not know what you face when it comes to licensure (or even residency programs), but that is something you should discuss with a premed adviser before you pursue this career path.

The good news is you will not need to disclose the felony charges, because they were dropped. You absolutely want to CONFIRM that they are indeed dropped before you submit your AMCAS, though. If something went wrong and they're still there, med schools will rescind offers so fast post-background check you won't have a chance to tell them your side of the story.

Unfortunately, those two misdemeanors will be a big problem. In your defense, they were a while ago, so you still have an outside shot, but only if you are an otherwise outstanding applicant. It's also possible that the one from when you were 17 is part of a sealed juvenile record, which (I believe) means you won't have to disclose it either. One misdemeanor for property damage is still pretty bad, but as others have pointed out, you can (almost honestly) explain it as a one-time lapse in judgement. Med schools will see everything else during the background check, but so long as you followed the rules on AMCAS, they won't do anything about it.

You have ZERO room for error, though. You need to find out exactly what is on your record, what the best case scenario is for your record at the time you apply, and pore over AMCAS's instructions to figure out which of these charges you need to disclose. And on top of all this, you better have a great application on all fronts. It'll be tough, but it is doable - just be sure you know what needs to be done.

 

[pre med 2014]

It shouldn't be that bad. The felonies were dropped for a reason, you were innocent so those won't count against you.

2 misdemeanors for fighting with your boyfriend when you were 18 years old? Completely normal mistakes, I don't see anything particularly concerning about this behavior for a teenager girl.

I doubt this will keep you from becoming a doctor. Just make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[danitydarling84]

My felonies were dropped because I was innocent and my victim admitted to making a false report,
secondly I had documentation proving that I was innocent, signed by my victim
including but not limited too:
text messages saying the car was for me
the pink slip
witnesses at the dealership
and legal documents signed by the victim stating the car was bought for me and for my uses

So I don't think the medical board should hold something like that against me. I'm not a drug addict, I don't abuse alcohol or drugs, and I don't steal. I think someone CONVICTED or multiple DUIs would be more of a unstable candidate.

In my state with a domestic violence charges, both parties ALWAYS go to jail. I do not appreciate the few people are this board that are trying to make it look like I'm "unstable" because I most certainly am not.

I appreciate all opinions, and your honesty, I was just curious about the level of difficulty I was going to be up against. That being said, please don't tell me to pursue another career or that I'm unstable - its not polite,
Thank you ivane, pattycake, love4organic for actually reading my post and being open minded.

Regardless of what anyone thinks I'm going to do what I want to do, no one is perfect and I believe the people on the committee know that and I believe that they are there to feel seats and take my money for my education and that is what they will do. I know I will have some trouble but even people with no records have trouble, its a hard profession and believe I will have a fair shot.

I do plan to do volunteer work, community service, and I will have multiple letters of recommendation from other doctors, my dean, and my counselor stating that I am not a liability.
Medical school isn't a worry for me, its the board hearing, and being in a hospital that I worry about.

 

[flodhi1]

My felonies were dropped because I was innocent and my victim admitted to making a false report,
secondly I had documentation proving that I was innocent, signed by my victim
including but not limited too:
text messages saying the car was for me
the pink slip
witnesses at the dealership
and legal documents signed by the victim stating the car was bought for me and for my uses

So I don't think the medical board should hold something like that against me. I'm not a drug addict, I don't abuse alcohol or drugs, and I don't steal. I think someone CONVICTED or multiple DUIs would be more of a unstable candidate.

In my state with a domestic violence charges, both parties ALWAYS go to jail. I do not appreciate the few people are this board that are trying to make it look like I'm "unstable" because I most certainly am not.

I appreciate all opinions, and your honesty, I was just curious about the level of difficulty I was going to be up against. That being said, please don't tell me to pursue another career or that I'm unstable - its not polite,
Thank you ivane, pattycake, love4organic for actually reading my post and being open minded.

Regardless of what anyone thinks I'm going to do what I want to do, no one is perfect and I believe the people on the committee know that and I believe that they are there to feel seats and take my money for my education and that is what they will do. I know I will have some trouble but even people with no records have trouble, its a hard profession and believe I will have a fair shot.

I do plan to do volunteer work, community service, and I will have multiple letters of recommendation from other doctors, my dean, and my counselor stating that I am not a liability.
Medical school isn't a worry for me, its the board hearing, and being in a hospital that I worry about.

You're jumping the gun, you can only worry about hospitals if you actually get into medical school. I tend to be an extremely understanding guy but you have some serious convictions and arrests. You have domestic violence and then on top of it malicious property damage. Let's get this straight you don't have just a single mistake such as drunk in public or underage drinking. You have a criminal record that shows aggressive behavior which is too big of a risk for medical schools to take when they have thousands even tends of thousands of applicants at some schools. Even though your felony charges were dropped. The arrest will show up on your Certaphi background check. Even though technically ADCOM are not supposed to factor in those "arrests" they are going to see a continuous history of run in with the law. I'm sorry for me this is a no brainer, it's an easy excuse to move on to the 9999th applicant.

 

[iave9963]

You're jumping the gun, you can only worry about hospitals if you actually get into medical school. I tend to be an extremely understanding guy but you have some serious convictions and arrests. You have domestic violence and then on top of it malicious property damage. Let's get this straight you don't have just a single mistake such as drunk in public or underage drinking. You have a criminal record that shows aggressive behavior which is too big of a risk for medical schools to take when they have thousands even tends of thousands of applicants at some schools. Even though your felony charges were dropped. The arrest will show up on your Certaphi background check. Even though technically ADCOM are not supposed to factor in those "arrests" they are going to see a continuous history of run in with the law. I'm sorry for me this is a no brainer, it's an easy excuse to move on to the 9999th applicant.

😕 And how many admissions committee have you worked on?

 

[flodhi1]

😕 And how many admissions committee have you worked on?

None but I had a criminal record myself so I know exactly what happened to me. Oh and mine were just minor driving convictions. Matter of fact I received a letter from my dean asking me to disclose information on one of my dropped charges which was just reckless driving.

 

[shinbeats]

Would having a violent offense stop me from working in a hospital?

Medical schools and hospitals are very sensitive towards individuals with violent offense convictions. You don't just have one but two which is the major issue here. Also to add insult to injury you have felony arrest(s) which will no doubt show up on your background check and they are not going to help you that's for sure. It's completely understandable that you were innocent and you might not have to even report it to medical schools but there's a very fine line and not only should you call AMCAS but individual schools too. There is nothing more important than an applicant who is honest and up front. The best thing to do is to be very up front about what happened instead of trying to keep skeletons in the closet especially since you were innocent.

I was arrested for public disturbance and the charges were dropped. The arrest still showed up on my background record with the exact date and charges. I had to sit down with my student affairs dean and discuss the incident. I will possibly have to talk about it when I apply to residency unfortunately that's just how nasty criminal records can be.

Even if you're not guilty of 2 felonies, I would not be surprised if someone sat there and said woah we need to have a talk with this girl because there's too many incidents. Later down the road in the wards or in your residency you could do something stupid and then it would be hell for the school. Lawyers trying to sue your medical school or the affiliated hospital would dig up as much dirt on you as possible such as but not limited to pulling up your criminal record and use that against not only you but the medical school and hospital. It's just too much of a hastle for the school especially with such a wide variety of applicants.

I agree with some of the previous posters if this was an isolated incident it would have been a minor speed bump. In the end though this boils down to how long ago these incidents occured? were you convicted as an adult at the age of 17 or as a juvenille? how strong of an applicant are you that medical schools would take such a big risk? these are questions that only the schools can answer so you should just apply and hope for the best. I am going to be straight forward though these convictions are not a joke and you need a hire a lawyer find a way to get it expunged or pardoned it will save you a lot in the future

 

[caffeinated1]

so, i have a much more substantial record than you, and i got in to what is considered a pretty decent program. so it can be done.

but.

i applied multiple times.
a substantial amount of time has passed since the convictions (no felony convictions, i think those would be as close to a non-starter as they come) without any trouble.
and i did a hell of a lot of volunteer work, because i figured that regardless of if i got into med school, my life was going to be more or less dedicated to grappling with the broader societal issues that i encountered as a result of my bad decisions.

now, please don't take this the wrong way, but you mention the "growth of the healthcare field" or something of the sort.

if you're looking for a vocation, there are easier paths. easier paths that are well paid. easier paths that provide job security. easier paths where you can make a difference.

my concern based on your posts is that you are thinking this will be easy to get in. i thought the same, because i had turned my life around, good grades, good test scores, etc. i had a rude awakening, and it would probably benefit you to take a critical inventory of the reasons you are pursuing this. you sound a little defensive. i was too, at your stage.

it will not be easy. the deck is strongly stacked against you. it is possible, but it may require a lot more struggle than you are anticipating.

so think long and hard about your alternatives is all. how much time are you willing to spend re-applying? how far are you willing to go? what sorts of concessions are you willing to make to get where you are looking to go? a lot of the answers to these questions, you will not know very well until you are confronted with whatever the reality is.

but consider them anyway.

good luck.

 

[LizzyM]

Thanks for taking the time to read my post –
I’ve scanned the other post similar to my own, however my circumstances seem to be different.

When I was 17 years old, I fell into the cycle of domestic violence with a former boyfriend. One morning our fight turned violent and bite him because I couldn’t breathe. That would make him more angry, he’d let go, catch me and it would start again. My mother woke up to this argument and called the police. She told him to leave and got into the floor with me. The police arrived we told them what happened and that he had left, they started to leave and they discovered him hiding on my porch, we were all arrested, him and myself for criminal domestic violence (CDV) and my mother for lying to a police officer. I paid a fine and I was let go, he was suppose to pay and fine as well however they gave him 30 days and he fled the state.
Afterward we broke up and he began living in a neighboring apartment complex, but still had a key to my house. He broke into my house and stole some very expensive items (we have a police report to prove that ) I went over there to try and get my things and it turned into another fight and the neighbors door was mangled and I was charged with malicious property damage, Because I was never arrested I didn’t know I was pleading guilty to a criminal charge, I thought I was just agreeing to pay the 100 dollars and move on with my life. <snip>
Would having a violent offense stop me from working in a hospital? That is my real concern. By the time I finish medical school it will have been 12 years later, I also plan to go to counseling, and do volunteer work at domestic violence shelters to try and show I’m rehabilitated.

Thanks for reading my really long post. I tried to bold the important stuff so you don’t have to read it all unless you want too. I think I will get better advice if the details are known.

Taking out the dropped charges, we have someone with a record of criminal domestic violence and a separate incident of malicious property damage. I just don't see an adcom saying, "We should invite this applicant for an interview." Part of the problem is that just about every medical school affiliates with the Department of Veteran Affairs and they are very strict about criminal background checks. If you can't do your clinical rotations at the VA, you are creating a real logistic headache for the med school.

See http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm for more information about licensing.

Given some of the things I'm seeing lately, I'm thinking of changing my sig line to "Pre-meds -- most of us are going pro in something other than medicine." because it seems to be not widely known that 57% of applicants (never mind the large number of "pre-meds" who never even apply) are not admitted to any medical school.

 

[Barcu]

Taking out the dropped charges, we have someone with a record of criminal domestic violence and a separate incident of malicious property damage. I just don't see an adcom saying, "We should invite this applicant for an interview." Part of the problem is that just about every medical school affiliates with the Department of Veteran Affairs and they are very strict about criminal background checks. If you can't do your clinical rotations at the VA, you are creating a real logistic headache for the med school.

See http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/04/02/prsa0402.htm for more information about licensing.

Given some of the things I'm seeing lately, I'm thinking of changing my sig line to "Pre-meds -- most of us are going pro in something other than medicine." because it seems to be not widely known that 57% of applicants (never mind the large number of "pre-meds" who never even apply) are not admitted to any medical school.

Straight from the mouth of an adcom.

Look OP, med school admission here is your major obstacle because no med school is going to take you if there is a risk of you getting a license. You are fighting an uphill battle here because the charges you have been convicted of (even leaving out the felony charges) are quite serious. Schools may be hesitant to take a chance because of the licensing risk. And even if you were able to secure a license, if something happened down the road, everyone would come back and say "how did this person get a license in the first place?" And that would not be good for the school or licensing organization.

I'm not saying this to take away all your hope or to call you unstable. The problem with the med school admission process is that it is incredibly impersonal at the beginning. You have to get through a screen that may eliminate 75% of the applicants to that school. It is tough to survive that screen without a criminal record. Unless something in your app really catches the eye of an adcom, most will say that it is not worth the time to figure out if you have really changed or if you are not the person your record indicates. They don't have the time for that. It may sound unfair but that's the reality of the situation.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't apply if you are really passionate. But I would be prepared for the worse and consider back-up options. It would be great if you can bump this thread in a couple years, quote my post, and call me an idiot because you got in somewhere. Good luck.

 

[LizzyM]

Straight from the mouth of an adcom.

Look OP, med school admission here is your major obstacle because no med school is going to take you if there is a risk of you getting a license. You are fighting an uphill battle here because the charges you have been convicted of (even leaving out the felony charges) are quite serious. Schools may be hesitant to take a chance because of the licensing risk.

Not only that but the risk that the student will do something bad and bring shame on the medical school. Then the media and the public ask, "Why did they let in someone with a record of....? Didn't they know that this person was unstable? There are so many good applicants and they picked someone like that? 😱"

So, it is not just the licensure issue but the fear that the person will commit a criminal act in a patient care setting or in a medical school facility (such as a dorm or a lab) or in the community (as the Craiglist killer did) and hurt the reputation of the school and its adcom.

 

[0TopCat0]

I swear I thought your quote said, "If you can smell panties, it's a clinical experience"

 

[iave9963]

Not only that but the risk that the student will do something bad and bring shame on the medical school. Then the media and the public ask, "Why did they let in someone with a record of....? Didn't they know that this person was unstable? There are so many good applicants and they picked someone like that? 😱"

So, it is not just the licensure issue but the fear that the person will commit a criminal act in a patient care setting or in a medical school facility (such as a dorm or a lab) or in the community (as the Craiglist killer did) and hurt the reputation of the school and its adcom.

What advice would you give for pre-meds, who are in similar situations to our OP? A few of my friends got in with records, but I think they were along the lines of underage drinking etc. Nothing violent.

I swear I thought your quote said, "If you can smell panties, it's a clinical experience"

 

[LizzyM]

What advice would you give for pre-meds, who are in similar situations to our OP? A few of my friends got in with records, but I think they were along the lines of underage drinking etc. Nothing violent.

If your criminal past includes a record* of sex crimes, violence, drug dealing, criminal neglect of children or the elderly, fraud, terrorism, or any criminal act committed in a health care facility, you should save everyone the time and seek out another career.

*conviction or a guilty plea.

 

[music2doc]

Not only that but the risk that the student will do something bad and bring shame on the medical school. Then the media and the public ask, "Why did they let in someone with a record of....? Didn't they know that this person was unstable? There are so many good applicants and they picked someone like that? 😱"

So, it is not just the licensure issue but the fear that the person will commit a criminal act in a patient care setting or in a medical school facility (such as a dorm or a lab) or in the community (as the Craiglist killer did) and hurt the reputation of the school and its adcom.

To add to this, while the OP seems to think dropped charges "don't matter" for licensure, I know that at least in CO they do look at them. I was actually warned of this when I had a peds psych pt make false statements about me touching her inappropriately. An internal review was conducted per procedure and all staff came back in my defense. In reality, an evaluation of the pt indicated it was nothing more than a childhood fantasy and the state investigator called in to review the case (as is standard procedure) wrote it up as such (i.e., no charges or anything of the sort -- complaint was summarily dismissed) but she informed me that if another similar complaint were to occur -- even if dismissed as for a total lack of evidence -- it would be taken more seriously simply b/c a previous complaint had been filed.

I would extend to the OP's situation that licensing boards do not have to consider dropped charges as a statement of innocence and probably will not if there is a long string of similar episodes (such as in the case of the OP). Everyone knows there are diversion programs that drop charges for adolescents and even young adults "to keep them from having a criminal record" and anyone who has spent some time in the DoC or DHS is well aware that judges have been known to give youth 5, 6, 7 or more "chances" before actually letting a charge stick to their record.

As a result, OP, I wouldn't exactly call your dropped charges likely to be ignored. They show a pattern of aggressive, impulsive, and risky behavior. Further, your attitude in responses here has revealed that aggression and lack of ability to listen to what others have to say. It appears to be a pattern for you and I would suggest getting whatever help you need to control those volatile tendencies. As for whether or not medicine is possible for you, I would leave that to the adcoms, but I will say I don't really see it happening. The hurdles you would have to surmount are incredibly high. You would be an incredibly risky proposition for any medical school and then for any residency and then for any licensing board to take on. Your record would be viewed as a godsend by many an adcom for one more app they can easily chuck into the circular file.

What advice would you give for pre-meds, who are in similar situations to our OP? A few of my friends got in with records, but I think they were along the lines of underage drinking etc. Nothing violent.

Drinking, etc. can be concerning when it comes to drug abuse, but violence is in a whole other category. Think about these things in terms of risk for a future physician and for the licensing board, school, and residency program responsible for the individual. Would those people feel at risk? By how much? Are there mitigating factors involved? Do they overcome the risk? Are there such highly outstanding factors involved with the person's application that might make the risk worth taking?

It's a game of factors, so consider the whole picture. In the OP's case, she has a lot of red flags -- and more just keep popping up the more she posts -- and she has not given us anything to indicate she is even that much of an applicant. If she had won the Nobel Prize last year, schools might see her as a potential medical researcher and want to take her own for an MD/PhD (with the implicit promise she will never touch a patient again). (I have actually heard of an MD/PhD student being graduated from somewhere with that as basically the promise he had to make to graduate because his clinical skills were so weak but his research was incredible. I forget what school this was, however.)

 

[flodhi1]

To add to this, while the OP seems to think dropped charges "don't matter" for licensure, I know that at least in CO they do look at them. I was actually warned of this when I had a peds psych pt make false statements about me touching her inappropriately. An internal review was conducted per procedure and all staff came back in my defense. In reality, an evaluation of the pt indicated it was nothing more than a childhood fantasy and the state investigator called in to review the case (as is standard procedure) wrote it up as such (i.e., no charges or anything of the sort -- complaint was summarily dismissed) but she informed me that if another similar complaint were to occur -- even if dismissed as for a total lack of evidence -- it would be taken more seriously simply b/c a previous complaint had been filed.

I would extend to the OP's situation that licensing boards do not have to consider dropped charges as a statement of innocence and probably will not if there is a long string of similar episodes (such as in the case of the OP). Everyone knows there are diversion programs that drop charges for adolescents and even young adults "to keep them from having a criminal record" and anyone who has spent some time in the DoC or DHS is well aware that judges have been known to give youth 5, 6, 7 or more "chances" before actually letting a charge stick to their record.

As a result, OP, I wouldn't exactly call your dropped charges likely to be ignored. They show a pattern of aggressive, impulsive, and risky behavior. Further, your attitude in responses here has revealed that aggression and lack of ability to listen to what others have to say. It appears to be a pattern for you and I would suggest getting whatever help you need to control those volatile tendencies. As for whether or not medicine is possible for you, I would leave that to the adcoms, but I will say I don't really see it happening. The hurdles you would have to surmount are incredibly high. You would be an incredibly risky proposition for any medical school and then for any residency and then for any licensing board to take on. Your record would be viewed as a godsend by many an adcom for one more app they can easily chuck into the circular file.



Drinking, etc. can be concerning when it comes to drug abuse, but violence is in a whole other category. Think about these things in terms of risk for a future physician and for the licensing board, school, and residency program responsible for the individual. Would those people feel at risk? By how much? Are there mitigating factors involved? Do they overcome the risk? Are there such highly outstanding factors involved with the person's application that might make the risk worth taking?

It's a game of factors, so consider the whole picture. In the OP's case, she has a lot of red flags -- and more just keep popping up the more she posts -- and she has not given us anything to indicate she is even that much of an applicant. If she had won the Nobel Prize last year, schools might see her as a potential medical researcher and want to take her own for an MD/PhD (with the implicit promise she will never touch a patient again). (I have actually heard of an MD/PhD student being graduated from somewhere with that as basically the promise he had to make to graduate because his clinical skills were so weak but his research was incredible. I forget what school this was, however.)

+1 I've been in the same exact situation where I have had to explain situations in which I was not convicted. If people think that dropped charges absolutely make NO difference in a slightly subjective process especially with a previous record, I'm sorry they are sadly mistaken. Medical schools and boards are not supposed to account those (some states have different laws) but come on seriously if you're already seeing someone with run ins with the law, it's a no brainer you would be inquisitive about the dropped charges. You would want to know the circumstances, why the charges were dropped especially if it's 2 felonies christ we are not talking about DUIs or first degree misdemeanors were talking about FELONY arrests on top of violent misdemeanor convictions. No one in their right mind would jeopardize the reputation of the school or themselves when they have thousands of other applicants lined up.

OP, I know you said you can't get the conviction expunged due to multiple convictions but If you are passionate about medicine then I say you hire a different attorney and try to find some way to get this expunged. If after taking all steps you still can't get the convictions expunged contact the governor's office and try to see what steps you can take to get these convictions pardoned. I'm sure if you explain the situation you would have a shot at a pardon, a better shot than getting into medical school with those criminal convictions. Best of luck.

 

[iave9963]

Thanks for the responses you all. I have always found this topic interesting when ever it comes up, and it always makes me wonder do I have unpaid traffic tickets somewhere 😳

 

[SaintJude]

Dear Op,
People innately respond to authenticity. (Even Tuesday's election results I think were part due to notion that some people didn't "feel" as if Romney was an authentic person...true or not) Part of being authentic means owning your experience to the fullest. Like others have said, they way you narrated your story indicates that perhaps you haven't fully owned your mistakes.

If you wanna get into med school, your entire application--your activities, even your choice of classes (take something on violence?) , and most importantly your essay will have to strongly demonstrate that you have changed and essentially you need to say

"Look, when I was a child I didn't know how to deal with anger and seek good relationships. But now I have put away childish things (insert Example 1,2,3) and this is how I will relate to patients with similar backgrounds"

This is a story you won't be able to fake. It will take to time for you to really embody that sense that "Hey, I took the higher road". The question is: Are you ready to do that? And do you have time to do that?

I say to myself "I can do nothing own my own, but I can do all in Christ who strengthens me." And I'll offer to you that same is true for you. All things are possible.

So I think it's possible.

 

[pre med 2014]

I say to myself "I can do nothing own my own, but I can do all in Christ who strengthens me." And I'll offer to you that same is true for you. All things are possible.

So I think it's possible.

This is rubbish. OPs criminal history either poses a threat to a patient safety or it doesn't irregardless of wether OP has found Christ or not.

 

[StIGMA]

At first glance, I sure as hell wouldn't want you to be in my class, nor would I want you as a colleague or a student. You have a more difficult battle than you think, and should need to do everything you can to show you have transformed into a responsible citizen and professional. If your life still has any semblance of its past, you will have a tough road ahead of you. There may be some schools willing to look past this, but I can think of many schools where this past would disqualify you from even an interview (meaning you couldn't prove to them in person who you currently are). Your letters of recommendation will be crucial and should speak strongly about your professionalism and current character (not simply that you are not a liability). A significant person should even be willing to put their reputation on the line to vouch for you, if you can secure a recommendation like that.

 

[link2swim06]

Dare I ask...if domestic violence wasn't a problem, what crime would? Rape, murder?

Domestic violence is a severe enough offense to negate your second amendment rights to own a gun.


Also its important to note...the majority of the time you break the law you don't get caught. If I was an adcom I'd be wondering what other unreported crimes the OP had committed.

OP there are plenty of careers you can go into if you have turned around your past. Unfortunately the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. For this reason it is dangerous to let you care for patients (regardless if you truly changed your life).

 

[pre med 2014]

Dare I ask...if domestic violence wasn't a problem, what crime would? Rape, murder?

Domestic violence is a severe enough offense to negate your second amendment rights to own a gun.


Also its important to note...the majority of the time you break the law you don't get caught. If I was an adcom I'd be wondering what other unreported crimes the OP had committed.

OP there are plenty of careers you can go into if you have turned around your past. Unfortunately the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. For this reason it is dangerous to let you care for patients (regardless if you truly changed your life).

It's different professionally. OP beat her bf in private life. If instead it was nursing home abuse it would be much worse since the abuse would have been in a work place setting.

Not sure how much personal problems relate to patient safety. Now if she stabbed her bf we would be looking at a whole different story.

By your logic it would be like saying we can't let someone be a doctor who stole a piece of candy as a child because then where would you draw the line? I like to draw the line at reason and common sense.

 

[LizzyM]

It's different professionally. OP beat her bf in private life. If instead it was nursing home abuse it would be much worse since the abuse would have been in a work place setting.

Not sure how much personal problems relate to patient safety. Now if she stabbed her bf we would be looking at a whole different story.

By your logic it would be like saying we can't let someone be a doctor who stole a piece of candy as a child because then where would you draw the line? I like to draw the line at reason and common sense.

Where do we draw the line?

If your criminal past includes a record* of sex crimes, violence, drug dealing, criminal neglect of children or the elderly, fraud, terrorism, or any criminal act committed in a health care facility.

Stealing a piece of candy as a child is unlikely to result in criminal prosecution. On the other hand, I have seen an applicant who was sanctioned by an undergraduate school for stealing electronics from other students in the school library get a smack down from a med school adcom.

 

[pre med 2014]

Where do we draw the line?

If your criminal past includes a record* of sex crimes, violence, drug dealing, criminal neglect of children or the elderly, fraud, terrorism, or any criminal act committed in a health care facility.

Stealing a piece of candy as a child is unlikely to result in criminal prosecution. On the other hand, I have seen an applicant who was sanctioned by an undergraduate school for stealing electronics from other students in the school library get a smack down from a med school adcom.

One of the criteria the federal government uses to identify terrorists includes having 7 days worth of food in the house. So I would look very carefully at any terrorist charges since the federal efficiency rate is about 100 innocent people accused per one terrorist.

I agree the decision to ban the applicant who stole electronics out of the library. But I don't see how an 18 year old girls childish squabble with a bad boyfriend says anything about her character in the long term.

 

[BlackSwan]

One of the criteria the federal government uses to identify terrorists includes having 7 days worth of food in the house. So I would look very carefully at any terrorist charges since the federal efficiency rate is about 100 innocent people accused per one terrorist.

I agree the decision to ban the applicant who stole electronics out of the library. But I don't see how an 18 year old girls childish squabble with a bad boyfriend says anything about her character in the long term.

Wait... what?? That would classify a large majority of Americans as "terrorists."

My grandma likes to buy food in bulk at Costco. So she's probably like the terrorist ringleader or something...

 

[caffeinated1]

A significant person should even be willing to put their reputation on the line to vouch for you, if you can secure a recommendation like that.

This. This was probably one of the key factors for me getting in.

So, just to follow up on my previous post, in case it's helpful, this is what i did:

I over-disclosed, meaning I talked in my application about charges that i didn't need to. even so, i ran up against the character limit for the misdemeanor section, largely because of the number of offenses i was disclosing.

I talked in detail in my personal statement about the introspective process and how i related that to my previous experiences with the justice system

i had hundreds of hours of volunteer work, in multiple contexts dealing with the underserved. and not the "safe" type of volunteer work, but the sort of front line stuff where others still look at my activities and ask why i want to be dealing with certain types of people so directly and regularly. and honestly, i can't imagine working in practice with any other kind of population.

but none of this, by itself, was enough, based on my application experience and the adcoms i talked with. having someone prominent from my postbac program write me a letter talking about my character and my experience, after many deep conversations about my direction with him, were likely critical to even getting interviews, because i had none before that.

some of the folks on this thread are less than sympathetic, and i would even go so far as to say they are insensitive or worse, reinforcing the stigma that people with experience in the justice system are on the receiving end of daily. In some respects i share their concerns, though i would put them differently. At the same time, i think that experience with the justice system is something we need more physicians to have. the overwhelming majority of people in prison will at some point become part of the community again.

i see some people suggesting you lawyer up. I understand that desire, but it seems unlikely that you will be able to clear your name legally until some significant time has elapsed anyway and you have demonstrated the same sorts of traits that adcoms are going to want to see anyhow. It is not easy or simple or inexpensive to receive a pardon or clemency, and i get the sense that there is a historical trend away from this practice, largely for political reasons.

You don't have to try to go to medical school right now, either. with the passage of the ACA, we will need a lot more primary care providers to deal with the newly insured, so there is a lot of expectation that we will be expanding the number of programs and slots in order to deal with this. You have time to do other meaningful things and demonstrate your commitment to this kind of work.

I get the impression that you are in a hurry. slow down, and take the time to consider your reasons and potential alternative paths, in depth. I cannot possibly emphasize this more strongly.

be well.

 

[pre med 2014]

Wait... what?? That would classify a large majority of Americans as "terrorists."

My grandma likes to buy food in bulk at Costco. So she's probably like the terrorist ringleader or something...

It is easy to find humor in this, in fact it would all be a joke if it didn't have such disastrous consequences

 

[LizzyM]

One of the criteria the federal government uses to identify terrorists includes having 7 days worth of food in the house. So I would look very carefully at any terrorist charges since the federal efficiency rate is about 100 innocent people accused per one terrorist.

I agree the decision to ban the applicant who stole electronics out of the library. But I don't see how an 18 year old girls childish squabble with a bad boyfriend says anything about her character in the long term.

Are people being convicted or pleading guilty to terrorism charges on the basis of "too much" food in the house??? I highly doubt it. I added terrorism because this is one of the things that the VA is preoccupied with.

Once again, if you've been convicted or have plead guilty to serious charges related to sex, violence, fraud, narcotics, abuse or neglect, terrorism and so forth, you are going to have a very steep up-hill climb. Booze and fast cars are less of an issue-- much less.

 

[Lucky Louie]

Given some of the things I'm seeing lately, I'm thinking of changing my sig line to "Pre-meds -- most of us are going pro in something other than medicine." because it seems to be not widely known that 57% of applicants (never mind the large number of "pre-meds" who never even apply) are not admitted to any medical school.

Such as very sad statement. Reality, yes, but let us down nicely. I added the underscore&#8230;&#8230;.us?. This has been my dream.

 

[music2doc]

Such as very sad statement. Reality, yes, but let us down nicely. I added the underscore…….us?. This has been my dream.

I understand your frustration but the truth is it's a competitive process and most people wouldn't be successful on this environment. IMO it's better to remove you from out now rather than later. Harsh? Maybe a little but your dream may be to become an Olympian too. Do you expect your coach to "let you down easy" our be somewhat frank about things?

 

[link2swim06]

One of the criteria the federal government uses to identify terrorists includes having 7 days worth of food in the house. So I would look very carefully at any terrorist charges since the federal efficiency rate is about 100 innocent people accused per one terrorist.

I agree the decision to ban the applicant who stole electronics out of the library. But I don't see how an 18 year old girls childish squabble with a bad boyfriend says anything about her character in the long term.

Its wasn't one charge.

It wasn't two charges.

It wasn't three charges.

It was four charges.

Two of which were felonies. Possession of a stolen vehicle and forgery are not "childish squabbles."

I am 24 years old and have never even been to jail, let alone been charged with anything. You are doing something wrong if you get 4 somewhat unrelated charges in your late teens/ early twenties.


pre med 2014 when you go to med school and are taking boards just remember the answer always is "past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior" if it is an option. You can thank me later for your guaranteed free point on step 1.