New Breed Ethics

[vegternarian]

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What does everyone think of the "Toyger" or the "Labradoodle"? Are these the breeds of the future or do they distract owners away from good animals in the shelters?

 

[david594]

Im a rather big fan of the liger. Cause they are pretty much the coolest animal ever. 🙂

The "Toyger" sounds like nothing special to me. Domestic cats breed for a nice striping pattern to give a wild cat look. Cross between a Bengal(wild looking) cat with other domestic breeds. Just the name of the breed screams FAD to me. Plus I would feel like an idiot explaining to people "Its a toyger. No, its just meant to look like a tiger. Its not actually related to a tiger"

I'm personally a big fan of the markings but would go for a Savannah way before I would consider a Toyger. Preferably and early generation Savannah as they maintain more of the serval traits.

 

[JerseyisCutest]

What is a toyger?

I was under the impression that labradoodles were bred to be hypo allergenic pets because they didn't shed. I think that's why they breed a lot of these designer breeds now, to bring out a trait that they want from one breed and have it show up in a different one........usually for a no-shed or low shedding pet. Shelter dogs are usually of the shedding sort (here, the typical shelter dog is a large breed mix of shepard/lab and for some reason there are lots of beagles, mix breed terriers are huge too) so I guess it just depends on what someone is looking for.

 

[Cheska]

Im a rather big fan of the liger. Cause they are pretty much the coolest animal ever. 🙂

Heck yes, bred for its skills in magic!

 

[HeartSong]

I think the danger is in the fad of it. People will by a labradoodle or a puggle without doing any research in the breeding of it. In that since, then they are worse than a shelter dog because the people breeding were just doing it for the money and the animal itself my be very badly bred.

However, if a person buys a purposely mixed breed dog and makes sure that it was well bred, then it is better than a shelter dog and in my opinion better than a purebed dog. It enlarges the gene pool so there's less chance of recessive genes showing up in the phenotype and if the breeders make sure there's a long line of quality ancestors on both sides, then the offspring should be healthy if not healthier than a purebred of the same breeding quality.

 

[dyachei]

What is a toyger?

I was under the impression that labradoodles were bred to be hypo allergenic pets because they didn't shed. I think that's why they breed a lot of these designer breeds now, to bring out a trait that they want from one breed and have it show up in a different one........usually for a no-shed or low shedding pet. Shelter dogs are usually of the shedding sort (here, the typical shelter dog is a large breed mix of shepard/lab and for some reason there are lots of beagles, mix breed terriers are huge too) so I guess it just depends on what someone is looking for.

Its a "designer" cat meant to look like a tiger. They try for the specific markings that tigers have on their faces, tails, and body. If you're interested go to toyger.org.

I think its ok when they are made for hypoallergenic traits. However, many designer breeds are just expensive. And inbred. I can't help but think that after breeding them with each other for so long there won't be crazy problems (I'm talking specifically about toygers here because they keep breeding them back to certain cats to get certain traits). Looking interesting is not a good excuse to breed animals with genetic defects.

 

[StealthDog]

I think its ok when they are made for hypoallergenic traits.

The problem is, when you mix a hypoallergenic poodles with a perfectly allergenic lab or golden, it's a genetic crapshoot about which coat type you'll end up with. Why not just get the poodle in the first place and not deal with the hassle?

Also, a lot of people believe that doodles and schnoodles and whatever else will have "hybrid vigor" and therefore won't have as many problems with inherited genetics diseases as the purebred parents did. Unfortunately, the opposite is true- now you have pups with twice as many chances of having a genetic disease, since it contains both a poodle half and a golden half, or whatever the mix is. If you really want hybrid vigor, head to a shelter!

I have nothing against the dogs themselves (we see a fair number at doggy daycare), but I think the designer dog fad is all about unscrupulous "breeders" stealing peoples' money. Where does your $1200 go? It certainly isn't going to cover show fees, registration fees, etc.....

 

[GallopRealyFast]

Seriously its a moneymaking scheme to get you to buy mutts. Yes the Xpoodles were made for hypoallergenic reasons (so the allergic handicapped can have a chance to get a service dog. I guess poodles don't make good service dogs??) but the rest are just there to make you spend hundreds of dollars instead of saving a life from a shelter. It's all a bunch of bull**** (Bulldog/****zu) the public eats up.

 

[Bill59]

The other problem is most of the allergens are in the saliva and apocrine sweat. Not hair.

 

[Rebeki]

I'm very biased, but in my opinion if you want a cute mutt - go to a shelter. You'll spend a lot less and the money will be going to a good cause. I think this trend of "designer" dogs started with celebrities and their teacup chihuahuas and yorkies. Dogs started to become fashion accessories. Honestly, I don't even think the puggle is that cute - my shelter dog is way cuter😛

 

[vegternarian]

Why not just get the poodle in the first place and not deal with the hassle?

Because really, who wants a poodle other than someone who is self loathing or masochistic? 😛 Just kidding folks, they're great dogs, just not my cup of tea.

I think the point of the labradoodle was to get the family friendly traits of a lab with the hypoallergenic coat of the poodle... a dog your whole allergic family can enjoy! 🙂

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[nyanko]

And every mix breed we've ever had has been the healthiest and easiest to train too..........I'm sure that's not everyone's case but someone else mentioned "hybird vigor" and I am totally sold on that! Poor guy was even hit by a car and torn up by a large bulldog/pitbull (and he's only 20 lbs), and still has never had any medical problems 11 yrs later. Then again the dogs we had were strays.........not from a shelter actually..........people drop off some of the cutest puppies in my parents' neighborhood, I just don't get it, I don't believe the owners even tried to find them homes.

There is a giant difference in a dog that is a mixed breed from a line of 2-3 generations of mixed breed dogs and a dog that is from 2 (usually badly bred) purebred parents. The term hybrid vigor is severely misunderstood and misused by these breeders that breed shihpoos and puggles and all those other cutesy little names. There is ABSOLUTELY no way to ensure that these dogs will only inherit the "good" traits from their parents and none of the bad. In addition, these dogs are mutts and there is no reason that they need to be bred purposely at all. Want a non-shedding, "hypoallergenic" retriever? Look at the Portuguese water dog. The Australian Labradoodle breeders were the only legitimate people to ever breed one of these dogs since their goal was guide dogs for those with allergies, and I believe that even they have abandoned this goal for the most part because of unreliability of phenotype. I very firmly believe that anybody breeding and selling these dogs is an ignorant backyard breeder at the best and a puppy mill at the worst.

 

[Electrophile]

For those who get down on the purebreds, any time you breed for looks for the show ring instead of working ability (as the vast majority of dog breeds are working breeds for a purpose), you will lose all sorts of positive attributes. Responsible working breeders didn't ruin excellent breeds like the German shepherd, show breeders and backyard breeders did. As Capt. Max von Stephanitz, the creator of the modern GSD, said, "Beautiful is what serves a useful purpose."

Agreed Nyanko! There is no reason to intentionally create mutts for pets. NONE. Not when millions of animals die a year. The only time I don't mind is the cross breeding of actual working dogs, like Alaskan huskies and Dutch shepherds. And incidently, I do not like calling those mixes by their cutesy names. It validates the *cough cough* "effort" of those "breeders." This is a puggle (a baby echnidna):

This is just a mixed breed dog (and an ugly one at that):

 

[Cheska]

Never heard of a toyger before, so I checked it out...
The toyger cats are a really silly idea to me. Just get a darn tabby from the shelter, it looks the same. 😱 Oh no, I said it! Their website cracked me up, "This is a cat for the computer age..." oh good grief!

I have met too many nasty Bengal cats in the practices that I have worked at. I can't even imagine having a Serval in my home like some people do, two DSH shelter cats are more than enough work!

 

[bakaduin]

BEGIN RANT!

I've always thought these designer dogs were an absolute travesty and a way to manipulate the ignorant into paying 2k for a mutt.

What is a breed of dog? A group that has identical or nearly identical of appearance, behavior or both. Dog breeds are standardized! When I see a Golden Retriever I know its a Golden. When I see a Lab I know its a Lab. Yes they have subtle differences but they are uniform.

Then you get to the designer dogs. I cant tell you how many puggles or labradoodles I've seen at my vets office and they all look different! Some have the beagle snout but some have the pug. Some have curly tails some dont. Some have long legs others are stubby. ITs a genetic crapshoot! I've seen labradoodles with so many varying hair coats yet these breeders pass these dogs off as a "breed". Puggles, labradoodles, maltypoos, golden doodles, these are not breeds! They are fancy names for mutts.

Go to the shelter and adopt a dog there are plenty of mixes. END RANT!

 

[Mia]

ITs a genetic crapshoot!

And because it's a genetic crapshoot, these idiot backyard breeders breed over and over and over again trying to get what they and the other idiots perceive to be a "puggle" or a "toyger" or whatever imaginary breed they've deluded themselves into believing exists.

 

[Cheska]

Then you get to the designer dogs. I cant tell you how many puggles or labradoodles I've seen at my vets office and they all look different!

And the the owners get all offended when you do not call it by its special designer dog name! As if I care what designer their handbag is too!

 

[JerseyisCutest]

...

 

[ShelterGirl]

I'm not a dog authority, but I've got to imagine that the designer-mixes don't have breed associations working on standards and ensuring that breeders are licensed, reputable, etc. etc.

So ... I've got to imagine that 99% of these dogs are bred in someone's backyard to make a quick buck.

Then (some of) those dogs get surrendered to us because they have health or temperament issues, or because the owners didn't do their homework and - surprise! - a lab mix is just too high energy! Also, since they are not a purebred dog, they are not eligible for breed rescues and may get put down more readily 😡

 

[chris03333]

What is a toyger?

I was under the impression that labradoodles were bred to be hypo allergenic pets because they didn't shed. I think that's why they breed a lot of these designer breeds now, to bring out a trait that they want from one breed and have it show up in a different one........usually for a no-shed or low shedding pet. Shelter dogs are usually of the shedding sort (here, the typical shelter dog is a large breed mix of shepard/lab and for some reason there are lots of beagles, mix breed terriers are huge too) so I guess it just depends on what someone is looking for.

poodles don't shed, labs shed like crazy so crossing them is probably not a step up for hypoallergenic reasons...

 

[Cheska]

I was watching the baseball playoffs, and saw the Lowe's commercial that always makes me cringe: The young couple buying flooring, but the flooring can't require glue assembly because.... "Our labradoodle has very sensitive skin"
I hate that ad so much.

 

[akitavet]

If you really want to create a "new breed" fine. Its been done in the past. In fact, people created all of them at some point. This is NOT what the labradoodle, shih tsupoo, puggle people are doing. This is, however, what the Savannah cat folks are doing.

Here's the big difference. The mutt BYBs are producing puppies for profit or novelty or whatever, but they dont go past F1. They always mix instead of selecting for the dogs with the traits they are shooting for. I have no problem in someone developing a breed of hypoallergenic dogs. Why they dont want a poodle or a portie or something is beyond me, but anyway....I digress. They just need to do it the right way. These people have no idea if what they produce will be hypoallergenic or not, and for ones that have the poodley coat, they dont use those to continue their lines. They go back to the BYB dogs they started with. People dont understand how selection works. That's why you buy a purebred...because you have some idea of what to expect.

Additionally, those BYBs talk a LOT about hybrid vigor. I dont think that they realize that dogs are not that different. There's no guarantee for health in any breeding and when both breeds carry addisons, CHD, etc., you are doing no better by crossing them. Its all a $ thing, and people are suckers.

As everyone else has been saying...if you want a mutt, go to a shelter. There are plenty of great ones there.

 

[vet4ever]

i think that it can go either way. labrodoodle, etc is just a fancy name for a mutt! or so i think. and yes they are distractioning from all the GREAT animal shelters!

 

[BostonLvr]

i think that it can go either way. labrodoodle, etc is just a fancy name for a mutt! or so i think. and yes they are distractioning from all the GREAT animal shelters!

vet4ever, may I ask your age? Honestly, I am just very curious.

On the thread topic- I used to work at a pet store that sold a lot of "designer dogs" and it seemed that most were not as hearty as the purebreds. Our store sold a "Lhasapoo" born without one of its paws for $700, a Chihuahua-Pug with severe luxating patellas (not helped by the fact that his stout pug body was too much for his tiny chihuahua legs) for $600, and a "ChiYork" with a severe heart problem for $1000. I have since quit that job so, please don't hate me by association. 🙄

 

[bclover]

"vet4ever, may I ask your age? Honestly, I am just very curious."

I think I read in another thread that vet4ever is currently 15 YO.

 

[Tiraka]

On the thread topic- I used to work at a pet store that sold a lot of "designer dogs" and it seemed that most were not as hearty as the purebreds. Our store sold a "Lhasapoo" born without one of its paws for $700, a Chihuahua-Pug with severe luxating patellas (not helped by the fact that his stout pug body was too much for his tiny chihuahua legs) for $600, and a "ChiYork" with a severe heart problem for $1000.

I think the health problems you listed could also have been caused by poor breeding and veterinary care in puppymills rather than inherent weaknesses of "designer dogs". Just a thought 🙂

FWIW, I trained a labradoodle service dog. She was a multi-generation Australian Labradoodle and was eventually placed with an allergic child. She shed, but far less than a lab would, and had to be trained not to lick, as he was also allergic to dog saliva. In this case, it worked out really well that she was a "hypoallergenic" hybrid, but I personally would not pay thousands for one of these dogs. As others have said, they seem to have become a new way for BYBs and puppymills to make a quick buck. There are people who breed them responsibly, but they are few and far between

 

[vegternarian]

I don't think there is any inherent problem with breeding dogs for positive traits like being hypoallergenic. My biggest problem is the breeders. I don't think it is responsible to breed animals when millions are being euthanized yearly. I know the best breeders are trying to keep a clean, strong bloodline and gene pool for their breed. However, many of the breeds out there were bred for a specific purpose that doesn't apply anymore. It's very much so a dilemma for me. 😕