New CORD guidelines for EM applicants - can any PD's help?

[hopefullyafutureDOstudent]

CORD released new guidelines that only 1 SLOE is needed now. They're also encouraging us to give up our audition spots so that others have an opportunity.

I have had 4 auditions set up since before COVID, and all of my programs told me they are continuing with the rotations and to still come.

Should I cancel? 1 audition is with my home hospital, the other 3 are with programs I am genuinely interested in and could see myself attending residency at.

Or will it look bad on my application if I have too many SLOE's / am being "selfish?" Can any PD's weigh in on how stringent these guidelines are?

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[Gambino.]

2 aways if you don't have a home EM program, otherwise 1 away. Check r/medicalschool good amount of posts regarding this.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Your goal should be to get one SLOE. Do one rotation. Period. If you do two, you MAY get excused if you have a really good reason, but if you do more than that I am pretty certain you will be killing your application.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

2 aways if you don't have a home EM program, otherwise 1 away. Check r/medicalschool good amount of posts regarding this.

I would disagree with this. Past years advice does not hold true. CORD and EMRA are openly saying more than one EM rotation risks having this being held against you.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I really wish the consensus statement had more teeth though. Something more than a recommendation where they openly discuss consequences for ignoring their recommendation to students. I think many PDs are going to crack down on students that ignore this. The general sense I keep hearing is that students who ignore it aren't team players.

 

[Rekt]

CORD released new guidelines that only 1 SLOE is needed now. They're also encouraging us to give up our audition spots so that others have an opportunity.

I have had 4 auditions set up since before COVID, and all of my programs told me they are continuing with the rotations and to still come.

Should I cancel? 1 audition is with my home hospital, the other 3 are with programs I am genuinely interested in and could see myself attending residency at.

Or will it look bad on my application if I have too many SLOE's / am being "selfish?" Can any PD's weigh in on how stringent these guidelines are?

I like Gamerdoc a lot. He's vital for this forum, but keep in mind that that is only one programs opinion. When I do interviews I would would certainly think significantly more highly and rank higher of an EM applicant who does 3-4 over 1. You'll be much stronger clinically.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I like Gamerdoc a lot. He's vital for this forum, but keep in mind that that is only one programs opinion. When I do interviews I would would certainly think significantly more highly and rank higher of an EM applicant who does 3-4 over 1. You'll be much stronger clinically.

You may be right. Some may not care. But I've watched multiple teleconferences by CORD/EMRA where they have said students that do more than one will be looked at as selfish and not team players. This isn't my opinion, I'm trying to explain the opinion of the Council of Residency Directors (CORD). There will be a lot of PDs that follow it. How many, I have no idea. I'm sure there will be ones that don't care either.

My personal opinion is, if a student has a good reason to do two, then I won't hold it against them. It's more liberal than the one being discussed by CORD. But that's because I'm in a low risk area that pretty much only gets rotators from orphan schools. I think any student doing more than 2 looks seriously selfish given the recommendations that you do one and only one no matter what, and I'm convinced it will hurt them based on what I have heard.

Take that opinion for what you will. But read anything from CORD or EMRA or people that have attended any of their live hangouts and this is the message they are pushing.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

That being said, they are encouraging non-EM off service SLOEs, ideally from rotations like Trauma, IM, ICU, etc. And also are encouraging subspecialty rotations (like peds em, US, etc) as an alternative to doing more than one rotation.

Personally, I'd like to reiterate something I said last week, I actually don't agree with CORD on this. I think if they limited students to two EM rotations, capped it there and flat out demanded PDs to hold it against students that broke the two rotation cap, this would be both more fair and more realistic. But what they have now is an unrealistic expectation (1 and only 1) with only a vague sense of repercussion that has been talked about on livestreams but isn't really published anywhere.

There are probably enough rotations for people to get 1-2 rotations for everyone. I have HUGE holes in our rotation schedule because of students cancelling because of this and very few people applying who have none.

 

[NurWollen]

I really wish the consensus statement had more teeth though. Something more than a recommendation where they openly discuss consequences for ignoring their recommendation to students. I think many PDs are going to crack down on students that ignore this. The general sense I keep hearing is that students who ignore it aren't team players.

I'm a graduating peds resident, not an EM doc, but I agree that these toothless recommendations end up not being fair to students. They just can't be sure if the decision they make is the right one and risk PDs looking down at them either way. It's just like when an attending or resident tells a med student, "good job today, you can head out early today, if you want." Maybe they're trying to see if they go above and beyond and stay late when given the chance to go home. Or maybe they have to catch up on notes and want a bit of time without distraction.

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[Lawpy]

i saw a similar thread in allo but i'm confused why caps aren't enforced. idk what to do with recommendations if there is no way to force programs and applicants to comply with them

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I'm a graduating peds resident, not an EM doc, but I agree that these toothless recommendations end up not being fair to students. They just can't be sure if the decision they make is the right one and risk PDs looking down at them either way. It's just like when an attending or resident tells a med student, "good job today, you can head out early today, if you want." Maybe they're trying to see if they go above and beyond and stay late when given the chance to go home. Or maybe they have to catch up on notes and want a bit of time without distraction.

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Correct. That was my biggest problem with this whole thing. That is was a recommendation for students/programs. One that I'm sure will have consequences if not followed (because people are openly saying it will in live streams about this), but nowhere in the recommendation is this addressed. Just make it a mandate. Say people that violate it will have it held against them by many PDs, and level the playing field.

 

[Gambino.]

Your goal should be to get one SLOE. Do one rotation. Period. If you do two, you MAY get excused if you have a really good reason, but if you do more than that I am pretty certain you will be killing your application.

https://www.cordem.org/globalassets...ittee-in-emergency-medicine-_-white-paper.pdf I may have misread it but CORDEM states 2 maximum if you don't have a home program. They do say they recommend one or less though, wording feels vague.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Someone on twitter posted that tonights EMRA live stream it was discussed that PDs will be reviewing the transcript to count EM rotations to make sure students aren't doing extra rotations and just not asking for SLOEs. This is why I'm paranoid for students on this issue. I think there's some people out there that are going to be on the warpath over this.

I haven't watched the livestream yet myself, it won't be archived for a few more days, but I do want to see exactly what was said. But everything on twitter tonight that I was seeing from students that were watching it live seemed to indicate "just do one or it will be held against you".

 

[gamerEMdoc]

https://www.cordem.org/globalassets...ittee-in-emergency-medicine-_-white-paper.pdf I may have misread it but CORDEM states 2 maximum if you don't have a home program. They do say they recommend one or less though, wording feels vague.

That is an old statement. The more recent one by all of the organizations in EM is below that is recommending only one single EM rotation. Backed by CORD, EMRA, ACEP, ACOEP, SAEM, CDEM, and others.

Consensus Statement on the 2020-2021 Residency Application Process

Matching in emergency medicine has been a life-long dream. Now, carefully laid out plans may seem temporarily thwarted. EMRA and our specialty have your back in every way as you navigate to join the best specialty in the world.

www.emra.org

 

[Lawpy]

adding more uncertainty in times of uncertainty doesn't help. would be helpful if all specialty organizations just impose clear caps and have programs follow it. because it's weird if someone following the guidelines gets their app trashed by a program that expects them to do more rotations than stated in guidelines

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I don't know how to play this one. I think there is risk in doing more than one. I think their is MAJOR risk in doing more than 2. I realize that doing one also creates huge problems for students without a home program. I wish I had a better idea on how many PDs will or won't hold it against people.

All I can do is speak for myself. This is what I did:

- I emailed all the candidates scheduled with the recommendations and said that if they felt the need to cancel, I would not hold it against them and we'd still interview them.
- When a student emails me asking me if they should cancel if they have 2, I openly discuss the uncertainty and tell them I won't hold it against them either way bc I don't care if they do a 2nd especially if it is a later rotation in nearly empty months at this point that isn't taking anyones spot. But I also can't speak for everyone out there.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

adding more uncertainty in times of uncertainty doesn't help. would be helpful if all specialty organizations just impose clear caps and have programs follow it. because it's weird if someone following the guidelines gets their app trashed by a program that expects them to do more rotations than stated in guidelines

Well it's up to the individual fields to set their own expectation. EM set the expectation at one across the board for applicants to EM. I don't think it matters to surgery what EM thinks, or vice versa, when it comes to judging applications.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

All I know is, I feel awful for all the 4th year applicants. This interview season seems like a huge dilemma. I've been trying to go and meet over zoom with 4th years at several DO schools that have no EM advisors to try to help troubleshoot what they should do based on all this stuff. Its heartbreaking. The amount of time and debt students took on to get here, and all of a sudden the rules all change and no one knows who is abiding by them and if it will matter if they do. My empathy truly goes out to all 4th years this year.

 

[kaygeebee]

CORD released new guidelines that only 1 SLOE is needed now. They're also encouraging us to give up our audition spots so that others have an opportunity.

I have had 4 auditions set up since before COVID, and all of my programs told me they are continuing with the rotations and to still come.

Should I cancel? 1 audition is with my home hospital, the other 3 are with programs I am genuinely interested in and could see myself attending residency at.

Or will it look bad on my application if I have too many SLOE's / am being "selfish?" Can any PD's weigh in on how stringent these guidelines are?

there's been tons of communication from EMRA and CORD stating that students should have 1 SLOE. Following advice from previous years can end up hurting you. Doing 4 auditions this year will almost certainly hurt you. It's up to you though. You can't do an audition and not get a SLOE so you'll have to have a good reason explaining why you have 4 SLOEs in a pandemic year when the official EM organizations told us months in advance that we should have 1.

 

[LibBum]

My school sent out an internal letter to all class of 2021 students specifically restricting away rotations for the year - with a few exceptions, like derm or plastics. EM was not on the list of exceptions. We have a home EM program, so I'm cuffed to one home SLOE...and have to couples match.

Good luck to everyone in March.

 

[FindersFee5]

My school sent out an internal letter to all class of 2021 students specifically restricting away rotations for the year - with a few exceptions, like derm or plastics. EM was not on the list of exceptions. We have a home EM program, so I'm cuffed to one home SLOE...and have to couples match.

Good luck to everyone in March.

That's weird, because plastics has specifically recommended all programs limit away rotations to only students who do not have a home program, and only 1 away rotation in those cases.

 

[hopefullyafutureDOstudent]

So if we do cancel these rotations, what would PD's like to see us doing instead? Can we do ANY non EM rotation or does it have to be an EM subspecialty?

For example, I was unable to participate in my OBGYN rotation this year because of COVID. It would be awesome if I could find an OBGYN to work wtih for a month so I get the experience

Or does it have to be US, toxicology, etc? because im not able to find any of those right now

or are we essentially just supposed to take the month off!?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So if we do cancel these rotations, what would PD's like to see us doing instead? Can we do ANY non EM rotation or does it have to be an EM subspecialty?

For example, I was unable to participate in my OBGYN rotation this year because of COVID. It would be awesome if I could find an OBGYN to work wtih for a month so I get the experience

Or does it have to be US, toxicology, etc? because im not able to find any of those right now

or are we essentially just supposed to take the month off!?

The off service sloe is intended for core rotations like surgery, trauma, IM, ICU, FP, etc. There is already a subspecialty sloe for EM subspecialties like US, EMS, etc. All are options.

 

[kristysmiles]

CORD released new guidelines that only 1 SLOE is needed now. They're also encouraging us to give up our audition spots so that others have an opportunity.

I have had 4 auditions set up since before COVID, and all of my programs told me they are continuing with the rotations and to still come.

Should I cancel? 1 audition is with my home hospital, the other 3 are with programs I am genuinely interested in and could see myself attending residency at.

Or will it look bad on my application if I have too many SLOE's / am being "selfish?" Can any PD's weigh in on how stringent these guidelines are?

My classmates and I have the same problem. We had our rotations set up before COVID and don't have a home program. Our school actually relies on us to do away rotations most of our 4th year. So if I cancel, I'll be applying for away rotations in other specialties and taking slots away from students interested in those specialties and programs. Also seems dishonest to me to switch to do an IM, FM or other rotation at a program I'm interested. Either we have to be like "hey I'm actually interested in applying to your EM program, but CORD/EMRA said I can only have one rotation" or just lie about the whole thing. For the record, most of the programs I'm interested in are small community programs without EM subspecialities.

Also our school is also telling us we can't cancel our audition rotations....

So yeah love the stress and anxiety of trying to figure out what to do on top of getting jerked around by board exam rescheduling.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

I like how one of the PDs at the EMRA hangout said it was okay that Harvard Med students had 2 EM rotations because they "have 2 hospitals and students always rotate through both and get sloes."


Gee... Thanks, sorry I was too stupid to get into Harvard or Mayo, or a school with a hospital at all. I guess I'm only allowed one as punishment?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I like how one of the PDs at the EMRA hangout said it was okay that Harvard Med students had 2 EM rotations because they "have 2 hospitals and students always rotate through both and get sloes."


Gee... Thanks, sorry I was too stupid to get into Harvard or Mayo, or a school with a hospital at all. I guess I'm only allowed one as punishment?

yes Its utter hypocrisy

 

[gamerEMdoc]

My classmates and I have the same problem. We had our rotations set up before COVID and don't have a home program. Our school actually relies on us to do away rotations most of our 4th year. So if I cancel, I'll be applying for away rotations in other specialties and taking slots away from students interested in those specialties and programs. Also seems dishonest to me to switch to do an IM, FM or other rotation at a program I'm interested. Either we have to be like "hey I'm actually interested in applying to your EM program, but CORD/EMRA said I can only have one rotation" or just lie about the whole thing. For the record, most of the programs I'm interested in are small community programs without EM subspecialities.

Also our school is also telling us we can't cancel our audition rotations....

So yeah love the stress and anxiety of trying to figure out what to do on top of getting jerked around by board exam rescheduling.

Definitely a very difficult situatuon. Idk how you will lie about the situation, all the rotations will be on your transcript. I guess maybe someone wont look closely, but the programs you rotate will know when you either arent asking for a sloes. As for emailing and canceling, everyone is having to do that. Programs shouldnt be taking that personally.

I totally agree though that this recommendation has hurt DO/orphan students who have no home. Its also exposing their schools that dont provide a home site and make scheduling the students problem while charging outrageous tuition.

 

[holdthemayo]

A few people have talked about it already. Here is the Link to the EMRA hangouts where most of these questions were discussed.

To OP - they clearly said that doing multiple aways will be looked upon unfavorably. To paraphrase one of the PDs "if you take multiple spots then you look like a selfish jerk. No one wants a jerk in their program."

They also cautioned against doing 2 rotations but only asking for 1 SLOE. You will look selfish and like you are trying to hide something.

It's an imperfect year, but your best bet is to follow the rules. There are still students from orphan programs trying to get even one away in time for a SLOE.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I can tell you personally I'm probably not going to hold it against DO's that do 2, but I will ask them about it. Some DO schools require 2 EM rotations. Some of their deans are telling students not to cancel no matter what the advice is. It is putting students in a terrible spot, and I understand that, so I won't hold it against students as long as they have an explanation why they did 2 other than "I wanted to get more EM experience" or "I needed more than one SLOE".

I also will have little tolerance for students doing more than 2 EM rotations. I highly doubt there is any school that requires 3-5 EM rotations. So those students that go on a huge number of auditions and just ignore the recommendations, I'm not gonna have any patience with those applicants and I'm just not interviewing them.

I guess my point is, if you have a good reason or your school is inflexible, I'm not opposed to bending the recs a bit because of your schools advice/requirements. But if you are just going to flat out ignore it and do whatever you want and take a large number of rotations, then I'm going to ignore your application, period. And I don't think I'm in the minority on this.

Do one, get one SLOE. If schools are adamant or requiring two, consider it if you have to knowing you may be asked about it, and hopefully throwing your school under the bus will be enough for programs to accept why you did 2. Doing more than that falls on you as being selfish IMO.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

1) I have an IM letter that specifically says "He would be a perfect addition to your internal medicine program". How are these letters viewed? It basically seems like a letter that screams IM as opposed to being vague enough for all specialities.

How do you know it says that? Did the writer let you see it before hand? If they were that open and honest about it (even though they shouldn't be, its a violation of the NRMP letter system to show the applicant their letter after they have waived the right). But if they did, I suppose you could ask them to take "IM" out of that last sentence.

2) My 2nd EM rotation is at a small community hospital with no residency programs. Should i get my preceptor there to write a SLOE or a LOR? Or should i not even do that rotation? I basically wanted to do this rotation to learn, not so much for apps. I'll have a SLOE by the time i get to this rotation.

I wouldn't do it. It gains you nothing and adds risk to your app. If adding a 2nd EM rotation adds some risk, there should be some benefit if you are going to assume that risk. Rotating at a non-residency site doesn't net you an interview somewhere. The LORs/SLOEs are usually not really worth much. In that scenario, I'd rather see someone just follow the rules. That is, unless the school is explicitly requiring a 2nd month of EM.

 

[kristysmiles]

Definitely a very difficult situatuon. Idk how you will lie about the situation, all the rotations will be on your transcript. I guess maybe someone wont look closely, but the programs you rotate will know when you either arent asking for a sloes. As for emailing and canceling, everyone is having to do that. Programs shouldnt be taking that personally.

I totally agree though that this recommendation has hurt DO/orphan students who have no home. Its also exposing their schools that dont provide a home site and make scheduling the students problem while charging outrageous tuition.

I meant lie about interest in other specialties to get rotations (I'm not supporting this, just stating what it sounds like they are asking of us to meet their requirements).

EMRA did say at the end of the last hangout if you have more than 1 EM rotation to try and find something else, but you don't have to cancel if you are unable to find a replacement rotation. But it sounds like from you stance, this will still hurt my applications.

 

[12jas]

All I know is, I feel awful for all the 4th year applicants. This interview season seems like a huge dilemma. I've been trying to go and meet over zoom with 4th years at several DO schools that have no EM advisors to try to help troubleshoot what they should do based on all this stuff. Its heartbreaking. The amount of time and debt students took on to get here, and all of a sudden the rules all change and no one knows who is abiding by them and if it will matter if they do. My empathy truly goes out to all 4th years this year.

This. I had four auditions lined up prior to the CORD statements. I worked hard to get those auditions lined up. I planned exactly when I needed to apply, pre wrote my interest letters, and planned a huge portion of my app strategy based on those auditions. As a DO student auditions have proven time and again as the way to get programs to consider you, to all of sudden be told you have to drop three auditions all at programs you are highly interested in just blows. The advice might be great for the average MD student but it demolished my chances at these programs I would have auditioned at. The EMRA hang outs were very clear they wanted "one and only one" so I did what I thought was best and cancelled all but one. Now I have no rotations lined up for months. My school is telling me that fourth years are on their own for finding rotations and the two main hospital networks in my region are still closed off to students so I am left with nothing. I had every intention of busting my a** for four auditions straight soaking up as much EM knowledge as I could now I will likely have very little clinical education at all. So don't blame us when we show up unprepared for residency. We our getting shafted from our schools, our board organizations, and inadvertently by organizations releasing blanket statements.

 

[kristysmiles]

This. I had four auditions lined up prior to the CORD statements. I worked hard to get those auditions lined up. I planned exactly when I needed to apply, pre wrote my interest letters, and planned a huge portion of my app strategy based on those auditions. As a DO student auditions have proven time and again as the way to get programs to consider you, to all of sudden be told you have to drop three auditions all at programs you are highly interested in just blows. The advice might be great for the average MD student but it demolished my chances at these programs I would have auditioned at. The EMRA hang outs were very clear they wanted "one and only one" so I did what I thought was best and cancelled all but one. Now I have no rotations lined up for months. My school is telling me that fourth years are on their own for finding rotations and the two main hospital networks in my region are still closed off to students so I am left with nothing. I had every intention of busting my a** for four auditions straight soaking up as much EM knowledge as I could now I will likely have very little clinical education at all. So don't blame us when we show up unprepared for residency. We our getting shafted from our schools, our board organizations, and inadvertently by organizations releasing blanket statements.

I think you summed up very well how DOs feel about this guidance. I've emailed EMRA multiple times about this and can't get through to anyone up top to get better guidance. It would be great if they at least let programs know about this. I might try emailing CORD and ACOEP.

I personally don't plan on cancelling any of mine unless I am able to get something else set up. I'd much rather go against the guidance and learn medicine than have to result to virtual rotations. If they hold it against so be it. I plan to work with clerkship directors to ensure that I'm not taking the opportunity away from someone else.

Hopefully, I can make it to the ACOEP and ACEP conferences this year and tell PDs directly how this is affecting us in hopes that they will still interview us.

Sorry you had to cancel.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I meant lie about interest in other specialties to get rotations (I'm not supporting this, just stating what it sounds like they are asking of us to meet their requirements).

EMRA did say at the end of the last hangout if you have more than 1 EM rotation to try and find something else, but you don't have to cancel if you are unable to find a replacement rotation. But it sounds like from you stance, this will still hurt my applications.

No from my stance I said if you have 2 rotations you'll have to explain it. It may hurt you if you don't have a good explanation. I think more than two is going to seriously trigger a lot of PDs and just not offer you an interview.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This. I had four auditions lined up prior to the CORD statements. I worked hard to get those auditions lined up. I planned exactly when I needed to apply, pre wrote my interest letters, and planned a huge portion of my app strategy based on those auditions. As a DO student auditions have proven time and again as the way to get programs to consider you, to all of sudden be told you have to drop three auditions all at programs you are highly interested in just blows. The advice might be great for the average MD student but it demolished my chances at these programs I would have auditioned at. The EMRA hang outs were very clear they wanted "one and only one" so I did what I thought was best and cancelled all but one. Now I have no rotations lined up for months. My school is telling me that fourth years are on their own for finding rotations and the two main hospital networks in my region are still closed off to students so I am left with nothing. I had every intention of busting my a** for four auditions straight soaking up as much EM knowledge as I could now I will likely have very little clinical education at all. So don't blame us when we show up unprepared for residency. We our getting shafted from our schools, our board organizations, and inadvertently by organizations releasing blanket statements.

No. You are getting shafted by your schools. Period. Its not the organizations. The organizations have never recommended med students do 4 months of EM rotations. Its a ridiculous business model that schools charge tuition during 4th year if they aren't providing rotations. What are you paying for? This issue of not having places to rotate in other fields lies solely on the business model of schools exploiting students.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I think you summed up very well how DOs feel about this guidance. I've emailed EMRA multiple times about this and can't get through to anyone up top to get better guidance. It would be great if they at least let programs know about this. I might try emailing CORD and ACOEP.

I personally don't plan on cancelling any of mine unless I am able to get something else set up. I'd much rather go against the guidance and learn medicine than have to result to virtual rotations. If they hold it against so be it. I plan to work with clerkship directors to ensure that I'm not taking the opportunity away from someone else.

Hopefully, I can make it to the ACOEP and ACEP conferences this year and tell PDs directly how this is affecting us in hopes that they will still interview us.

Sorry you had to cancel.

There is very unlikely to be an ACEP this year. There is definitely not going to be a residency fair, not an in person one. It's going to be virtual.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

There is very unlikely to be an ACEP this year. There is definitely not going to be a residency fair, not an in person one. It's going to be virtual.

Im down with a virtual one. Better than nothing.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Im down with a virtual one. Better than nothing.

Honestly, if done right, it may be better. As of now, only a select percentage of students go to the fair. With it virtual, it opens it up to a huge group. Not sure how they will limit slots or how it will work, if you will book a time with a program or whatever. But it could actually turn out to be a good thing. Time will tell.

 

[TheSingularity]

This CORD "policy" is the biggest bull**** ever. So you can only do 1 audition, unless you go to Harvard, or Mayo, or are a DO, or, or, or. Seriously F*** this noise. You should go on however many auditions you want to and everyone else can pound sand. "Team player" F that. Are all these PDs going to be "team players" and guarantee that you and your spouse can couples match together? Didn't think so.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This CORD "policy" is the biggest bull**** ever. So you can only do 1 audition, unless you go to Harvard, or Mayo, or are a DO, or, or, or. Seriously F*** this noise. You should go on however many auditions you want to and everyone else can pound sand. "Team player" F that. Are all these PDs going to be "team players" and guarantee that you and your spouse can couples match together? Didn't think so.

you can agree that the recommendation sucks. But please don’t recommend students do something that is going to hurt their application. Purposely saying “F the rules I’m going to do whatever I want “this year is not a smart decision. I agree the recommendation it’s going to be harmful to some. But I think openly defying the recommendation is going to be harmful to more.

 

[RuralEDDoc]

This CORD "policy" is the biggest bull**** ever. So you can only do 1 audition, unless you go to Harvard, or Mayo, or are a DO, or, or, or. Seriously F*** this noise. You should go on however many auditions you want to and everyone else can pound sand. "Team player" F that. Are all these PDs going to be "team players" and guarantee that you and your spouse can couples match together? Didn't think so.

I don’t agree. COVID is allowing this process to return to sanity. I’m sure everyone’s experience differs considerably, but I would have welcomed these limitations with open arms. Stop the bloodletting already in this maddening process and bring it back to basics - a rotation, ten or so interviews, and match day.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Yeah, honestly, for so many students even in normal years this whole idea of 4th year becoming all about one specialty has gotten out of control. I have had students tell me they have gone on 7 EM rotations. SEVEN. It used to be one home, one away. Or two aways if you have no home. Two SLOEs. Done. Now its just a scramble to get rotations because everyone is doing 3 or more. It definitely needs to be scaled back some in the future.

 

[TheSingularity]

you can agree that the recommendation sucks. But please don’t recommend students do something that is going to hurt their application. Purposely saying “F the rules I’m going to do whatever I want “this year is not a smart decision. I agree the recommendation it’s going to be harmful to some. But I think openly defying the recommendation is going to be harmful to more.

This is all fine and fuqing dandy but then make it a RULE, agreed upon and adopted by all PDs. Not some BS on some website that people may or may not know about (honestly, most students outside this crazy-sphere of SDN probably have no idea what CORD even is), that may or may not be enforced uniformly.

Just throw this on the shyt pile of the ways we've screwed over medical students applying to our specialty in the last 10 years.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This is all fine and fuqing dandy but then make it a RULE, agreed upon and adopted by all PDs. Not some BS on some website that people may or may not know about (honestly, most students outside this crazy-sphere of SDN probably have no idea what CORD even is), that may or may not be enforced uniformly.

Just throw this on the shyt pile of the ways we've screwed over medical students applying to our specialty in the last 10 years.

Agreed. That was my problem with this whole thing. There is no teeth to it, no defined repercussions. So no one knows who is following it and what breaking the recommendation will really do. They say that PDs will hold students accountable but will they? What percentage of PDs will?

I would have much prefer a black and white, no exception, type statement that said if you break this rule, we recommend all PD's agree to hold you accountable.

 

[RuralEDDoc]

The challenge here is that CORD and the signatory organizations don’t control medical schools. So what more could they say? The statement is pretty strong as is. Empty threats from a non regulatory body don’t go far. Strong recommendations is all they have the power to make so that’s what they did - they’re not rule making bodies.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

The challenge here is that CORD and the signatory organizations don’t control medical schools. So what more could they say? The statement is pretty strong as is. Empty threats from a non regulatory body don’t go far. Strong recommendations is all they have the power to make so that’s what they did - they’re not rule making bodies.

Correct. They can't make a rule. But they could say "we are telling PD's not to interview anyone with more than one SLOE". And that would essentially enforce their recommendation and end all doubt about this.

 

[RuralEDDoc]

Correct. They can't make a rule. But they could say "we are telling PD's not to interview anyone with more than one SLOE". And that would essentially enforce their recommendation and end all doubt about this.

That’s not how organizations work. They don’t give directives to people they don’t employ. They do not have the authority to make such a directive. Only an fool issues a command that they can’t enforce. But a strong suggestion is fair game.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Its the council of residency directors. They can certainly suggest to residency directors the enforce it. They can't force them to.