New D.O. Neurosurgery programs

[esth0001]

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Does anybody know about these new D.O. Neurosurgery programs in Chicago and Seattle??

MWU/CCOM/John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital Cook County - Neurological Surgery Reside

PCSOM/Yakima Regional Medical Center & Heart Ctr - Neurological Surgery Residency

 

[bob13]

i was tring to find info on these program also???

any help????

 

[javy2299]

Cab anyone tel me wat D.O neurological residency mean? Is it any different from the other neurosurgical residency? If so how different thery are?

 

[tncekm]

No, shouldn't be any different.

I think the problem is a lot of DO's just don't get as many residency opportunities, especially if they take the COMLEX vs the USMLE.

Technically, a DO Neurosurgeon and an MD Neurosurgeon should be equally qualified, with the minor difference of DO's having a background on a more hands-on manipulative therapy that lends itself well to family practice. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'm just doing my research 🙂

 

[Fah-Q]

Technically, a DO Neurosurgeon and an MD Neurosurgeon should be equally qualified

Was that supposed to be a joke?

 

[Cowboy DO]

I dont hear anyone laughing.

 

[tncekm]

Was that supposed to be a joke?

How is that supposed to be a joke?

I was just at an ortho clinic where the two surgeons were a D.O. and an M.D. Would you like to ask the D.O. at that clinic if its supposed to be a joke?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Was that supposed to be a joke?

wow, apparently you've never heard of a DO surgeon. Congrats on your ignorance.

 

[Fah-Q]

wow, apparently you've never heard of a DO surgeon. Congrats on your ignorance.

The training is not equivalent. It might be close in the world of primary care, but surgical subspecialty training is different. I've worked with DO-trained "surgeons" and it's scary.

If the training was equivalent, why do so many DO graduates seek MD residencies?

Put political correctness aside and call it what it is...inferior.

 

[Willh81]

If the training was equivalent, why do so many DO graduates seek MD residencies?

Either that or the general lack of available programs. That tends to have an effect. The trend noted may even be better accounted for by that obvious fact, as opposed to the ridiculous one forwarded by yourself.

 

[tncekm]

The training is not equivalent. It might be close in the world of primary care, but surgical subspecialty training is different. I've worked with DO-trained "surgeons" and it's scary.

You sound like you don't have a clue, dude. In fact, I'd bet money that you have no freggin' idea what you're talking about.

The most important factor of your surgical training is the residency. So, regardless of the fact that a person went to an MD or DO school, its ultimately the residency that is important in the training!

 

[tncekm]

Either that or the general lack of available programs. That tends to have an effect. The trend noted may even be better accounted for by that obvious fact, as opposed to the ridiculous one forwarded by yourself.

DO schools offering the COMLEX vs. the USMLE is a problem for students, too. Without standardized testing, the small 5% of DO graduates will just be ignored since they can't fairly judge performance with two different tests.

 

[Fah-Q]

You sound like you don't have a clue, dude. In fact, I'd bet money that you have no freggin' idea what you're talking about.

The most important factor of your surgical training is the residency. So, regardless of the fact that a person went to an MD or DO school, its ultimately the residency that is important in the training!

Just so it's more clear for you:

Your orginal claim was that DO and MD neurosurgical training programs are equivalent.

Technically, a DO Neurosurgeon and an MD Neurosurgeon should be equally qualified,

I am asserting that they are not equally qualified. I agree with you that surgical training is far more important than medical school. I'm simply making the point that DO neurosurgical training programs are inferior to MD neurosurgical training programs.

Either that or the general lack of available programs.

So, you are going to try to tell me that DO grads only apply to MD neurosurgical programs because there are not enough DO programs...get real.

 

[tncekm]

The DO and MD neurosurgeons ARE equally qualified because the biggest factor in their neurosurgeon training is the residency (it appears we agree here). So, by default, if a DO is a neurosurgeon he is equally qualified because most DO neurosurgeons are trained at MD residencies due to the low availability of DO residencies for neurosurgeons.

Are the new DO neurosurgery programs not up to par with longstanding MD programs? Quite possibly, but I think making assumptions about these sorts of things is not a reasonable argument.

Now, is it harder for a DO to become a neurosurgeon? yes! definitely. One major issue is that DO schools offer the COMLEX vs. the USMLE. When 95% of the graduating doctors are MDs and they take the USMLE, that creates a problem when the 5% who took a completely different test are trying to apply for a residency. In addition, DOs can still take the USMLE if they opt to do so. Is the COMLEX v USMLE the ONLY problem when trying to get into an MD residency as a DO? No.

But, does any of that have to do with a DO and MD Neurosurgeon being any more or less qualified than the other? NO!

 

[Fah-Q]

The DO and MD neurosurgeons ARE equally qualified because the biggest factor in their neurosurgeon training is the residency (it appears we agree here). So, by default, if a DO is a neurosurgeon he is equally qualified because most DO neurosurgeons are trained at MD residencies due to the low availability of DO residencies for neurosurgeons.

Are the new DO neurosurgery programs not up to par with longstanding MD programs? Quite possibly, but I think making assumptions about these sorts of things is not a reasonable argument.

Now, is it harder for a DO to become a neurosurgeon? yes! definitely. One major issue is that DO schools offer the COMLEX vs. the USMLE. When 95% of the graduating doctors are MDs and they take the USMLE, that creates a problem when the 5% who took a completely different test are trying to apply for a residency. In addition, DOs can still take the USMLE if they opt to do so. Is the COMLEX v USMLE the ONLY problem when trying to get into an MD residency as a DO? No.

But, does any of that have to do with a DO and MD Neurosurgeon being any more or less qualified than the other? NO!

I guess we should clarify.

MD or DO trained at an MD neurosurgical training program is superior to anyone trained at a DO neurosurgical training program. Agreed?

I wasn't trying to bash DO's as you instantly assumed. But DO training programs in the surgical subspecialties are poor and this is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[tncekm]

In that instance I would say there is a good probability that the neuro's are better trained at a good MD institution. I can't say that for sure, because I don't know. But, I would feel comfortable putting my money on the MD institution having a better program.

However, I'm sure that many competent D.O. Neurosurgeons come out of D.O. residencies, too.

 

[Willh81]

Just so it's more clear for you:

So, you are going to try to tell me that DO grads only apply to MD neurosurgical programs because there are not enough DO programs...get real.

That is exactly what I'm telling you. And it's true.

 

[NeuroRz2006]

Wow, I've sit and listen to this non-sense for about as long as I can take. Yes there are some good MD Neurosurgery residencies no one contends that, but as of yet I haven't seen more than opinions thrown out as supposed proof that DO neurosurgery programs are no good. Well I'm in a DO neurosurgery residency and I'll tell you first hand that your information is not accurate. While there aren't as many programs that is true there are some pretty good ones. And the idea that they do not offer the type of training opportunies available at MD programs holds little to no actual fact. First of all, in terms of exposure to cases, most DO programs exist in larger cities and sprung up because of the opportunity existed to train residents based on the available neurosurgery pathology. They are in fact all afflilated with large busy trauma centers. In many cases, these are the same trauma centers and large hospitals used by M.D. programs to train their residents and the D.O and M.D. residents end up training side by side. Why would that ever be the case? Well because in many parts of the country, there just aren't enough neurosurgeons or neurosurgery residents to handle the work. And don't kid yourself, that is what neurosurgery residencies are really all about. The old days of mine and yours and the antiquated thinking that D.O.'s aren't real doctors isn't proving true especially in the face of vast physician shortages. As for case load, one of the D.O. programs in MI actually sees more neurosurgery cases than any of the M.D. programs in the state. Or in terms of technology nearly all programs have added Stealth system training and as of last year the program in IL had the only cyber knife in the state. As for diadactics, obvious the changing face of neurosurgery has required continued learning by all residents the same is true for at least the 5 D.O. programs I've seen. The residents have journal clubs, presentations, national speakers, and the residents are expected to publish articles and present at national conferences not to mention read continuously. As for placement in fellowships, D.O. neurosurgery residents also get those too. I know of a graduate of the NY program that did Peds at Columbia, there is a MI grad doing spine at U of Miami, one that did cranial at Allegany General and many more. So as you can see it is very possible to come out of a D.O. neurosurgery program and be very well trained. I ask that you please stop throwing negative opinions out there simply because that is what you've heard or because that is what you presently believe. Thank you

 

[dawg44]

Medicare, Insurance plans pay the same to a DO vs MD Neurosurgeon. Hospitals definitely don't give a crap they just want one, either one.
The 3 A's to being a successful surgeon Affability, Availability and Ability. Ability is last for a reason and alot of times has nothing to do with your residency. Some people just have good hands and good surgical decison making. They have "IT". Others don't. Some of the biggest hacks I've ever seen during my residency are big name published guys. Some of the best surgeons, guys most people have never heard of.

 

[doc_stone]

Wow, I've sit and listen to this non-sense for about as long as I can take. Yes there are some good MD Neurosurgery residencies no one contends that, but as of yet I haven't seen more than opinions thrown out as supposed proof that DO neurosurgery programs are no good. Well I'm in a DO neurosurgery residency and I'll tell you first hand that your information is not accurate. While there aren't as many programs that is true there are some pretty good ones. And the idea that they do not offer the type of training opportunies available at MD programs holds little to no actual fact. First of all, in terms of exposure to cases, most DO programs exist in larger cities and sprung up because of the opportunity existed to train residents based on the available neurosurgery pathology. They are in fact all afflilated with large busy trauma centers. In many cases, these are the same trauma centers and large hospitals used by M.D. programs to train their residents and the D.O and M.D. residents end up training side by side. Why would that ever be the case? Well because in many parts of the country, there just aren't enough neurosurgeons or neurosurgery residents to handle the work. And don't kid yourself, that is what neurosurgery residencies are really all about. The old days of mine and yours and the antiquated thinking that D.O.'s aren't real doctors isn't proving true especially in the face of vast physician shortages. As for case load, one of the D.O. programs in MI actually sees more neurosurgery cases than any of the M.D. programs in the state. Or in terms of technology nearly all programs have added Stealth system training and as of last year the program in IL had the only cyber knife in the state. As for diadactics, obvious the changing face of neurosurgery has required continued learning by all residents the same is true for at least the 5 D.O. programs I've seen. The residents have journal clubs, presentations, national speakers, and the residents are expected to publish articles and present at national conferences not to mention read continuously. As for placement in fellowships, D.O. neurosurgery residents also get those too. I know of a graduate of the NY program that did Peds at Columbia, there is a MI grad doing spine at U of Miami, one that did cranial at Allegany General and many more. So as you can see it is very possible to come out of a D.O. neurosurgery program and be very well trained. I ask that you please stop throwing negative opinions out there simply because that is what you've heard or because that is what you presently believe. Thank you

wow. i think its safe to say Fah-Q got his stuff whipped on this one. daaaaang!!!

 

[Bull's eye]

I guess we should clarify.

MD or DO trained at an MD neurosurgical training program is superior to anyone trained at a DO neurosurgical training program. Agreed?

I wasn't trying to bash DO's as you instantly assumed. But DO training programs in the surgical subspecialties are poor and this is the point I'm trying to make.

This is just plain wrong. I am a DO in a DO subspecialty surgical residency and we spend 1/2 of our residency working with the big MD institution downtown, and we not only hold our own, but, most of THEIR attendings say that we run circles around them. (and it has everything to do with my training program)

 

[Freshnstylin]

here is a post I posted to FMG's and DO's...i think it fits for this thread too

DO neurosurgeon...well soon to be anyway. here is a neurosurgeon resident PGY-6 at KU. yes, he did graduate from an osteopathic school...can you believe that? i also looked at a resident list someone posted who showed an osteopath at MUSC...although they have him listed as an MD on the website (on purpose or not...i don't know). so the point to this message is that...yes, it's probably a lot harder to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency at a university coming from an osteopathic school...and yes, it's probably impossible to match to harvard, yale, stanford, duke etc for neurosurgery even if you get a 260+ on the USMLE step 1 (and yes there ARE DO students who do smoke the USMLE) , won a noble prize for your research, built a brand new hospital with your own two hands, and have a perfect 4.0 (or number one in your class...however your school determines that) ...BUT there are at least two DO's out there in allopathic residencies at academic institutions (and maybe more than two?) so it's not impossible to match allopathic neurosurgery at an academic institution. and maybe it's an uphill battle right now...even for the most competitive osteopathic students. But times are changing and if you are a DO student and want to train at an allopathic residency for neurosurgery..it is possible....even if we have to do everything but sell our souls to the neuro-gods (although who knows...these two guys might have). maybe one day it will be an even playing field for all physicians in all residencies (osteo and allo alike). and maybe one day pre-meds, meds, and old school docs around the US and world will actually believe that DOs CAN tie their shoes, CAN count to ten, AND CAN use the right end of a stethoscope. but as for now...i am glad i chose osteo, and i'm also glad that it's POSSIBLE (even if it's not thaaaat possible) to match pretty much any residency except for plastics (although we will work on that...) even if it's not harvard or yale. because the vast majority of medical students out there allo or osteo will never even get to mow the lawn at stanford or jhu. well if you have endured my rant...here is the website of the KU neurosurgeon resident who graduated from an osteopathic school...

http://www2.kumc.edu/neurosurgery/residents.html

 

[dawg44]

here is a post I posted to FMG's and DO's...i think it fits for this thread too

DO neurosurgeon...well soon to be anyway. here is a neurosurgeon resident PGY-6 at KU. yes, he did graduate from an osteopathic school...can you believe that? i also looked at a resident list someone posted who showed an osteopath at MUSC...although they have him listed as an MD on the website (on purpose or not...i don't know). so the point to this message is that...yes, it's probably a lot harder to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency at a university coming from an osteopathic school...and yes, it's probably impossible to match to harvard, yale, stanford, duke etc for neurosurgery even if you get a 260+ on the USMLE step 1 (and yes there ARE DO students who do smoke the USMLE) , won a noble prize for your research, built a brand new hospital with your own two hands, and have a perfect 4.0 (or number one in your class...however your school determines that) ...BUT there are at least two DO's out there in allopathic residencies at academic institutions (and maybe more than two?) so it's not impossible to match allopathic neurosurgery at an academic institution. and maybe it's an uphill battle right now...even for the most competitive osteopathic students. But times are changing and if you are a DO student and want to train at an allopathic residency for neurosurgery..it is possible....even if we have to do everything but sell our souls to the neuro-gods (although who knows...these two guys might have). maybe one day it will be an even playing field for all physicians in all residencies (osteo and allo alike). and maybe one day pre-meds, meds, and old school docs around the US and world will actually believe that DOs CAN tie their shoes, CAN count to ten, AND CAN use the right end of a stethoscope. but as for now...i am glad i chose osteo, and i'm also glad that it's POSSIBLE (even if it's not thaaaat possible) to match pretty much any residency except for plastics (although we will work on that...) even if it's not harvard or yale. because the vast majority of medical students out there allo or osteo will never even get to mow the lawn at stanford or jhu. well if you have endured my rant...here is the website of the KU neurosurgeon resident who graduated from an osteopathic school...

http://www2.kumc.edu/neurosurgery/residents.html

Something else of note about KU. Forrest "Phog" Allen was a D.O.

 

[med-i-cal]

To Fah-Q

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/directory/glance_6440780.htm

Providence Hospital, #49 overall Neurology/Neurosurg. Osteopathic only residency. I do believe this is the one NeuroRz2006 was referring to in MI...

 

[iliacus]

So, you are going to try to tell me that DO grads only apply to MD neurosurgical programs because there are not enough DO programs...get real.

I'll get real..the answer to this question is yes. I'm not very concerned at all about the MD/DO residency..when you're cutting into the brain it's all the same. I'll be applying ortho and my number 1 choice is a DO residency because of location. If you say I'll be an inferior surgeon because of it then you're level of maturity and understanding of patient care is poor. One thing I've learned while in the clinic and hospital is that sh*tty docs are sh*tty docs..doesn't matter what degree they hold or where they trained. If you think a surgeon is "better" because they trained in one program then you're fooling yourself.

 

[Fah-Q]

I'll get real..the answer to this question is yes. I'm not very concerned at all about the MD/DO residency..when you're cutting into the brain it's all the same. I'll be applying ortho and my number 1 choice is a DO residency because of location. If you say I'll be an inferior surgeon because of it then you're level of maturity and understanding of patient care is poor. One thing I've learned while in the clinic and hospital is that sh*tty docs are sh*tty docs..doesn't matter what degree they hold or where they trained. If you think a surgeon is "better" because they trained in one program then you're fooling yourself.

Please answer a few questions to help clarify your opinion:

1. Do you believe that all residencies are equal?

2. Do you believe that residency training has no influence on a surgeon's competence or proficiency?

3. Do you believe that as a medical student you can comment intelligently on this topic even though you haven't even interviewed for a residency yet?

I'm sorry for questioning your supreme "understanding of patient care" during your massive experience this past year of medical school. But the ideas you are proposing are quite strange and I would like to make sure I am understaning you correctly. I would also like to know how you arrived at such conclusions.

 

[iliacus]

Please answer a few questions to help clarify your opinion:

1. Do you believe that all residencies are equal?

2. Do you believe that residency training has no influence on a surgeon's competence or proficiency?

3. Do you believe that as a medical student you can comment intelligently on this topic even though you haven't even interviewed for a residency yet?

I'm sorry for questioning your supreme "understanding of patient care" during your massive experience this past year of medical school. But the ideas you are proposing are quite strange and I would like to make sure I am understaning you correctly. I would also like to know how you arrived at such conclusions.

Didn't mean to offend you, sorry if I did.

1.) No, some residencies are better than others.

2.) I believe that the competency and proficiency falls on the shoulders of the surgeon. You can train in a less regarded program and be a better surgeon than someone who trained in a highly regarded program. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Are you using the logic that if Dr. X trained here he/she MUST be excellent? Do you make your judgements on where a person has been, or the work they do?

3.) I do feel like I can comment intelligently on this subject. Are you assuming I'm a 23 year old fresh out of undergrad with no clinical experience whatsoever? If you did you're wrong and by making that assumption it usually indicates that's the background you're operating from. Would it surprise you to know that I probably have more time in a clinical setting than most residents you run into? Would it also surprise you that I've worked along side hundreds of doctors, some of which graduated from Harvard and some foreign medical schools and have come to realize over the years that you can't make judements based on that fact alone.

Can you smell what I'm cooking or am I being to condesending? Maybe my ideas aren't as strange to others as they are to you. Perhaps in the future my ideas may become more clear as you meet and work with more physicians. But either way I feel very comfortable with my stance on this issue because it's founded on past experience.

 

[Fah-Q]

1. Glad we agree on that. There are good, average, and probably a few bad programs in every surgical field.

2. Good training programs can certainly produce poor surgeons but it is far more common for a bad training program to produce a poor surgeon. This is why our agreement on #1 is so important. There is a difference in training and training makes the surgeon. I think we agree on this. Where we probably disagree is my belief that DO training programs in the surgical subspecialties are not on par with MD training programs.

3. I would accept your point if you were to tell me that your experience in a clinical setting consisted of observing surgeons making clinical decisions and observing the outcomes. In other words, you were in the clinic/ICU/OR when surgeons from a good program made a decision that resulted in a bad outcome while the surgeon from a bad program made a different decision in a similar situation that resulted in a good outcome. I don't know what clinical setting you were in but I just doubt that you were a situation to actually observe and understand what I describe above.

I want to also make clear that I don't think where a person went to medical school has much to do with being a good surgeon. Training is the key and so I don't think your point of observing Harvard grads vs FMG's is valid. I am speaking purely about surgical training...not which school teaches biochemistry better.

By the way, I thought your mommy poo comment in another forum was freaking hilarious. I've tried to explain how gross that is to people before and I thought that was the perfect term.

 

[loupes101]

Congrats Fah-Q on your assessment of the DO neurosurgery world! Bottom line, buddy, I'm one and damn proud of it. My inferior or subpar training , as you so eloquently put it, has served me well!

I think I speak for most, if not all, DO neurosurgeons or any surgery subspecialty for that matter -- there are good and bad ones! It is, however, foolish to claim/think that because of two letters after our names, or our program affiliations that our training is inferior to MDs.

Give us the scalpel or engage in conversation about cranial, spinal, vascular or other pathologies and we'll demonstrate our sub-par knowledge.👍

 

[iliacus]

Congrats Fah-Q on your assessment of the DO neurosurgery world! Bottom line, buddy, I'm one and damn proud of it. My inferior or subpar training , as you so eloquently put it, has served me well!

I think I speak for most, if not all, DO neurosurgeons or any surgery subspecialty for that matter -- there are good and bad ones! It is, however, foolish to claim/think that because of two letters after our names, or our program affiliations that our training is inferior to MDs.

Give us the scalpel or engage in conversation about cranial, spinal, vascular or other pathologies and we'll demonstrate our sub-par knowledge.👍

I think Fah-Q makes some valid points about training. I like to think of it as good, better, and best. Any US trained neurosurgeon should hold their own, but there are some better programs than others. I think it's a mixture of the individual and the training program that makes the surgeon.

 

[HarveyCushing]

Any update on the Yakima NS program? Is it a go?

 

[iliacus]

Any update on the Yakima NS program? Is it a go?

No...it's dead. Talked to the guy who was involved in setting it up.