New Doctorate of Physician Assistant Degree

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
DrJonesenberg said:
It's not a thing. I just wanted to see who'd get upset with just the title
Click to expand...
Um, actually it is. :slap:

http://www.baylor.edu/hrp/index.php?id=92086
For graduate students, Baylor offers a doctoral program in Physician Assistant Studies with a specialization in Emergency Medicine. The program is jointly administered with the U.S. Army through Brook Army Medical Center in Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loc...cle_df5303b4-7e6b-11e3-8bef-0019bb30f31a.html
According to Lynchburg College, it will be the first school in the country to offer such a degree. Currently physician’s assistants must complete an accredited educational program, pass a state-licensing exam and they have the option of earning a master’s degree. Students who enroll in the physician assistants doctoral program will spend 27 months earning a master’s degree and then begin a nine month program — consisting of courses and a clinical fellowship — before obtaining their doctoral degree. The basic sciences, pharmacology, clinical medicine, patient examination techniques and surgical and technical clinical skills will all be taught.
 
Last edited:
Oops I feel silly. But that's pretty ridiculous that this exists. Feel free to delete this thread
 
Members don't see this ad :)
DermViser said:
Students who enroll in the physician assistants doctoral program will spend 27 months earning a master’s degree and then begin a nine month program — consisting of courses and a clinical fellowship — before obtaining their doctoral degree.
Click to expand...

Wait wait wait. Do you apply to this program with only a bachelor's degree? Two years for a master's and then 9 months for a doctorate? That's insane. The term doctor officially means nothing anymore.
 
chajjohnson said:
Wait wait wait. Do you apply to this program with only a bachelor's degree? Two years for a master's and then 9 months for a doctorate? That's insane. The term doctor officially means nothing anymore.
Click to expand...
Pretty much. It's 9 months post masters for the doctorate. It's essentially degree creep.
 
Kangal said:
Doctor of NP, Psych D, Doc of PA. They all have value. They don't take away from your job duties. Who cares who is called "doc". Just focus on what you are doing ya know? Just my two cents. Which isn't worth much, (probably about 2 cents - see, I'm funny too).
Click to expand...

Who cares? Apparently, non-physicians do.
 
Kangal said:
Doctor of NP, Psych D, Doc of PA. They all have value. They don't take away from your job duties. Who cares who is called "doc". Just focus on what you are doing ya know? Just my two cents. Which isn't worth much, (probably about 2 cents - see, I'm funny too).
Click to expand...
Yes, except the "doctorate" is then used to justify an increase in scope of practice when lobbying legislators. The MD/DO degree doesn't mean anything by itself. It's only defined by its scope practice, the same way PA have a scope of practice, NP has a scope of practice. Scope of practice is defined by the state government.
 
Kangal said:
Doctor of NP, Psych D, Doc of PA. They all have value. They don't take away from your job duties. Who cares who is called "doc". Just focus on what you are doing ya know? Just my two cents. Which isn't worth much, (probably about 2 cents - see, I'm funny too).
Click to expand...

Titles used as propaganda tools.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Kangal said:
The Ph.D. doesn't define a scope of practice, just defines an expertise. I always figure the DNP thing was kind of the same? Correct me if I am mistaken.
Click to expand...
You are mistaken. The DNP is a practice doctorate. It is not a Ph.D in nursing.
 
Kangal said:
Gotchya, so DNP has more scope of practice than an NP? I thought the DNP was someone who normally goes into teaching NPs.
Click to expand...
Right now, the NP degree is a masters degree. The nursing establishment is upgrading the degree to where it will be a doctorate, hence the DNP.
 
Good for them that they are doing it... Hey... NP are doing it, why can't they jump into the bandwagon as well?
 
Last edited:
DermViser said:
Right now, the NP degree is a masters degree. The nursing establishment is upgrading the degree to where it will be a doctorate, hence the DNP.
Click to expand...

And then using this to increase their scope of practice because "hey, we're doctors too".
 
DermViser said:
Students who enroll in the physician assistants doctoral program will spend 27 months earning a master’s degree and then begin a nine month program — consisting of courses and a clinical fellowship — before obtaining their doctoral degree. The basic sciences, pharmacology, clinical medicine, patient examination techniques and surgical and technical clinical skills will all be taught.
Click to expand...

Nine whole months -- Wow...
 
chajjohnson said:
Wait wait wait. Do you apply to this program with only a bachelor's degree? Two years for a master's and then 9 months for a doctorate? That's insane. The term doctor officially means nothing anymore.
Click to expand...
Who cares, it's a title.
 
Kangal said:
The Ph.D. doesn't define a scope of practice, just defines an expertise. I always figure the DNP thing was kind of the same? Correct me if I am mistaken.
Click to expand...

As of right now it is, but PhDs do not refer to themselves as doctor in a clinical setting. DNPs, and now DPAs(?) will be doing so.

That being said, if NPs can do it, it only makes sense that PAs can as well.

These are all moneymakers for schools as they keep increasing the requirements for credentialing (eventually NPs will be required to be DNPs, PAs will be required to be DPAs, etc.) and for lobbying for increased scope of practice (but see, Congress, I'm a DOCTOR, too!)


Kangal said:
Doctor of NP, Psych D, Doc of PA. They all have value. They don't take away from your job duties. Who cares who is called "doc". Just focus on what you are doing ya know? Just my two cents. Which isn't worth much, (probably about 2 cents - see, I'm funny too).
Click to expand...


As stated above, Non-physicians clearly do. That's why they keep adding Doctor to everything.

Doctor of NP has no additional clinical value compared to NP. We'll see if Doc of PA has any clinical value.
 
Given that you can become a physician in 36 months at a few programs, a PA program granting an inferior doctorate in an equal amount of time seems both justifiable in the one hand and silly on the other.
 
This whole doctorate-level degrees for mid-level providers trend is worrying, and in my opinion, bad for the consumer as well as for physicians. There absolutely is/will be a tendency for the less-informed to equate "doctors" of NP or PA with MDs, and certainly for "doctors" of NP or PA to want to call themselves "Doctor" and wear the scrubs/white coat to encourage that [deceptive] impression.

I know we've got a shortage of primary care providers, and I'm not trying to keep NPs & PAs from easing some of that gap -- under physician supervision. But what we've got going on is a deliberate attempt to blur the lines and flatten the hierarchy.

From a business perspective, that's a deceptive trade practice, and I'd suggest the AMA get busy protecting their turf.
 
DokterMom said:
From a business perspective, that's a deceptive trade practice, and I'd suggest the AMA get busy protecting their turf.
Click to expand...

The AMA is too busy worrying about offending midlevels. Individual state medical societies probably have the most power to keep this in check. The Mass Medical Society does a pretty good job of it.

Remember, all politics is local. Become active with your state-level medical association.
 
DokterMom said:
This whole doctorate-level degrees for mid-level providers trend is worrying, and in my opinion, bad for the consumer as well as for physicians. There absolutely is/will be a tendency for the less-informed to equate "doctors" of NP or PA with MDs, and certainly for "doctors" of NP or PA to want to call themselves "Doctor" and wear the scrubs/white coat to encourage that [deceptive] impression.

I know we've got a shortage of primary care providers, and I'm not trying to keep NPs & PAs from easing some of that gap -- under physician supervision. But what we've got going on is a deliberate attempt to blur the lines and flatten the hierarchy.

From a business perspective, that's a deceptive trade practice, and I'd suggest the AMA get busy protecting their turf.
Click to expand...
They're too busy trying to make nice to be part of the PCMH -- something that has not been shown to reduce overall costs. On a side note, I love your avatar picture.
 
Mad Jack said:
Given that you can become a physician in 36 months at a few programs, a PA program granting an inferior doctorate in an equal amount of time seems both justifiable in the one hand and silly on the other.
Click to expand...

Except PAs can go straight into practice without having to do residency at a residency salary. I mean it makes less sense than the current system, but I'm sure this is to eventually mirror what NPs and DNPs are doing with independent practice rights.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Except PAs can go straight into practice without having to do residency at a residency salary. I mean it makes less sense than the current system, but I'm sure this is to eventually mirror what NPs and DNPs are doing with independent practice rights.
Click to expand...
A reduced salary for 3-5 years in exchange for a substantially increased salary and full independence seems totally worthwhile.

That PA doctorate was designed for a different purpose than most imply though. It was created specifically to acknowledge their extra EM training versus the typical PA so they could practice in an ED, since most non-military PAs come out of the gate inadequately prepared for EM work and will have trouble finding an EM position. They're not saying they've been trained at the physician level, merely that they've been adequately trained to operate at the midlevel in one particular environment.
 
Like most people here I get frustrated by the idea of mid-level providers increasingly engaging in what has previously been physician's scope of practice. Some of that frustration is certainly related to the fact that U.S. medical schools are ridiculously competitive to get into and the pathways towards the PA and NP degrees are less rigorous. It seems like a back door into medicine. However the same thing could be said about Caribbean schools yet I don't feel the same way about Caribbean doctors. The difference being of course that Caribbean doctors have to go through all of the same licensing tests as U.S. doctors.

If mid-level providers want to treat patients within the scope of practice that physicians have traditionally occupied they should be subject to the same licensing requirements and tests. I know this opinion has been espoused on KevinMD and elsewhere on this forum and makes complete sense to me. If an NP passes the USMLE exams and completes clinical training equivalent to residency then they fully deserve a broader scope of practice.
 
Last edited:
chajjohnson said:
Wait wait wait. Do you apply to this program with only a bachelor's degree? Two years for a master's and then 9 months for a doctorate? That's insane. The term doctor officially means nothing anymore.
Click to expand...

It's over when people can become 'physicians' in 9 months. Imagine a physician of nursing degree (PN). That's asking for it.
 
BurghStudent said:
It's over when people can become 'physicians' in 9 months. Imagine a physician of nursing degree (PN). That's asking for it.
Click to expand...

It's coming. Better get prepared to be lost in the sea of "doctors". If I need care I'm going to go to another country where at least I know the "doctor" is actually a physician.
 
Mad Jack said:
A reduced salary for 3-5 years in exchange for a substantially increased salary and full independence seems totally worthwhile.

That PA doctorate was designed for a different purpose than most imply though. It was created specifically to acknowledge their extra EM training versus the typical PA so they could practice in an ED, since most non-military PAs come out of the gate inadequately prepared for EM work and will have trouble finding an EM position. They're not saying they've been trained at the physician level, merely that they've been adequately trained to operate at the midlevel in one particular environment.
Click to expand...
This is just a starting point--talk to me in 5 years...
 
http://www.todayshospitalist.com/index.php?b=articles_read&cnt=1525 (NPP = Non-Physician Provider)

"For retention, you really have to treat your NPPs just like you would another doc." –Tracy E. Cardin, ACNP-BC University of Chicago Hospital

If you have a small program with limited training capabilities and need an employee to get up to speed quickly, hire someone with hospital experience. By the same token, assigning a midlevel with little experience to a geographically-based unit may be helpful in that he or she would be dealing with only a limited number of staff and one group of patients. Just be aware, Dr. Friar pointed out, that such an assignment could affect long-term satisfaction. "I don't want to get stuck on the ortho ward for the rest of my career," he said. "Make sure that you don't consign an NPP to eternity on the cardiology or ortho ward."🙄🙄

Medicine is full of stories of midlevels who are not invited to the company party or included in lunch outings, or who don't receive the same CME allowance as doctors. In fact, said Dr. Kalupa, research shows that about half of NPs and PAs get between $1,500 and $2,500 a year for CME, which is far less than most physicians.

"Some institutions justify this by saying, 'Well, they're only half a physician,' " said Dr. Friar. "But the catch is that they still need the same education if they're going to do the same job you do. So the 'half a physician' thing doesn't really cut it." 😱
 
Last edited:
Kangal said:
Doctor of NP, Psych D, Doc of PA. They all have value. They don't take away from your job duties. Who cares who is called "doc". Just focus on what you are doing ya know? Just my two cents. Which isn't worth much, (probably about 2 cents - see, I'm funny too).
Click to expand...

There is too much potential to confuse patients and contrive the role you actually play in their care.

Michael Ames, a Physician's Assistant, introduces themselves as Doctor Ames, even though they possess the title but not the position, of Doctor.

The title doctor should be one of distinction, not of ambiguity.
 
DermViser said:
http://www.todayshospitalist.com/index.php?b=articles_read&cnt=1525 (NPP = Non-Physician Provider)

"For retention, you really have to treat your NPPs just like you would another doc." –Tracy E. Cardin, ACNP-BC University of Chicago Hospital

If you have a small program with limited training capabilities and need an employee to get up to speed quickly, hire someone with hospital experience. By the same token, assigning a midlevel with little experience to a geographically-based unit may be helpful in that he or she would be dealing with only a limited number of staff and one group of patients. Just be aware, Dr. Friar pointed out, that such an assignment could affect long-term satisfaction. "I don't want to get stuck on the ortho ward for the rest of my career," he said. "Make sure that you don't consign an NPP to eternity on the cardiology or ortho ward."🙄🙄

Medicine is full of stories of midlevels who are not invited to the company party or included in lunch outings, or who don't receive the same CME allowance as doctors. In fact, said Dr. Kalupa, research shows that about half of NPs and PAs get between $1,500 and $2,500 a year for CME, which is far less than most physicians.

"Some institutions justify this by saying, 'Well, they're only half a physician,' " said Dr. Friar. "But the catch is that they still need the same education if they're going to do the same job you do. So the 'half a physician' thing doesn't really cut it." 😱
Click to expand...

Sure, but CME courses are generally cheaper for PAs/NPs and their certification hour requirements are different. A recent conference I went to had MD/DOs paying double the PA/NP rate.
 
Smurfette said:
Sure, but CME courses are generally cheaper for PAs/NPs and their certification hour requirements are different. A recent conference I went to had MD/DOs paying double the PA/NP rate.
Click to expand...
What I was shocked is that they're actually telling physician hospitalists that the NPs are doing the same job they do. Talk about a slap to the face.
 
DokterMom said:
Nine whole months -- Wow...
Click to expand...

a physician assistant student goes to school for seven semester and a medical student goes to school for 8 semesters. The difference is that PA students go to school year round and do not get summers off. So if they go to school for another 9 months they will technically go to school longer and for more semester hours as a medical student. PA school is modeled off of the same curriculum as MD school and is governed by the same board. So any changes that occur to PA curriculum have to be okayed through the BOM. So yes a whole 9 months.
 
bradburkhart2 said:
a physician assistant student goes to school for seven semester and a medical student goes to school for 8 semesters. The difference is that PA students go to school year round and do not get summers off. So if they go to school for another 9 months they will technically go to school longer and for more semester hours as a medical student. PA school is modeled off of the same curriculum as MD school and is governed by the same board. So any changes that occur to PA curriculum have to be okayed through the BOM. So yes a whole 9 months.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? "Summers off" are rapidly disappearing from American medical schools as they move to increasingly shorter preclinical course time to get students to the wards faster. There are "3 summers" during medical school, two of which are spent on rotations. After medical school, residency starts mid-June, killing that summer too.

I started medical school and only got a 7 week research period between first and second year, which my medical school has recently eliminated. All other summers were occupied by clinical rotations.

Medical school "semesters" lose meaning as soon as clinical years start.

Medical students get twice as much time on preclinical and clinical subjects as PA students. Trying to argue that PAs "do more in less time" is bordering on an NP "equivalence" level of imagination.
 
bradburkhart2 said:
a physician assistant student goes to school for seven semester and a medical student goes to school for 8 semesters. The difference is that PA students go to school year round and do not get summers off. So if they go to school for another 9 months they will technically go to school longer and for more semester hours as a medical student. PA school is modeled off of the same curriculum as MD school and is governed by the same board. So any changes that occur to PA curriculum have to be okayed through the BOM. So yes a whole 9 months.
Click to expand...
There is a substantial quality difference between the two. First off, most PA students get 12 4-week rotations. Medical students get 24 4-week rotations. That's a huge difference in clinical time, and the quality of rotations and depth of them is also quite different in many cases. Second, they get 12 months of preclinical at most programs (some programs are 26 or 28 months, and typically add 2 months to preclinical time with this additional time). At my school we have 20 months of preclinical. Even with this 20 months, we still don't have enough time to learn everything. This leads to a much more superficial preclinical education, and a much less robust clinical education. PAs are in no way equivalent to MDs, and are not held to the same educational standards with regard to tested knowledge or curriculum content.
 
Thought I'd put my "Nine whole months" quote in context --

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DermViser said: ↑
Students who enroll in the physician assistants doctoral program will spend 27 months earning a master’s degree and then begin a nine month program — consisting of courses and a clinical fellowship — before obtaining their doctoral degree. The basic sciences, pharmacology, clinical medicine, patient examination techniques and surgical and technical clinical skills will all be taught.

Nine whole months -- Wow...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was a while ago, but it seems rather clear to me that my "nine whole months" sarcasm was directed at the "nine whole months" between a master's degree and a doctorate. That's an astonishingly small incremental training requirement between two very different degrees.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
"Physician assistants want state to loosen restrictions"
Replies
22
Views
3K
EngineerPreMD
EngineerPreMD
AJS59
New executive order re: Accreditation
Replies
1
Views
380
WildWing
WildWing
K
SDN Article: 20 Questions: Jackée Clement, MD, Family Physician
Replies
1
Views
633
Hollow Knight
Hollow Knight
Mr.Smile12
MD & DO NMBE Educational Assistance Award (Cycle 1) Now Open
Replies
0
Views
174
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
S
Experience with New MD/JD Programs
Replies
0
Views
687
Sandman23
S
Top