New grads

[militarymd]

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Where are you guys all going after graduation?

- moving far away or staying close
- how did you find your job?....contacts, recruiters, gaswork
- what kind of job arrangement?....partnership track...locums...employee.
- how long ago did you sign your contracts.
- all MD or ACT or some other model

 

[powermd]

Where are you guys all going after graduation?

- moving far away or staying close
- how did you find your job?....contacts, recruiters, gaswork
- what kind of job arrangement?....partnership track...locums...employee.
- how long ago did you sign your contracts.
- all MD or ACT or some other model

I'm doing a fellowship in pain, obviously, but here are what my colleagues are up to:

Cardiac fellowship - 6
Cardiac/ICU - 1
ICU - 2
Regional - 1
Pediatrics - 4
Pain - 5
OB/research - 1
Private practice - 5

Those doing fellowships are all staying at Columbia, except for pain, where four are headed elsewhere.

Of those going into PP, one took a job with NAPA in Long Island. One is likely to sign with Kaiser in LA, one took a job in Atlanta (unsure of specifics), and the others are still unknown.

C'mon guys, cough up some data!

 

[MechE]

Of those going into PP, one took a job with NAPA in Long Island. One is likely to sign with Kaiser in LA, one took a job in Atlanta (unsure of specifics), and the others are still unknown.

Is the one who took the job in Atlanta the same one who writes "The Underwear Drawer?"

http://theunderweardrawer.blogspot.com/

 

[New2Midwest]

Our breakdown at my place-14 CA-3 residents:

Peds-1 (staying)
CT-1(staying)
CT/Critical Care (2 year program):1 (staying)
Regional:1 (Duke)
OB: 1 (staying)
Pain: 5 (2 staying, 1 Northwestern, 1 CCF, 1 Duke)
Private Practice: 4

 

[Jeff05]

our breakdown

1 - pain
1 - peds
1 - neuro
1 - OB
11 - private practice/academics

6 cardiac at columbia?! that's amazing. you guys must have a great cardiothoracic experience.

 

[Trisomy13]

our CA-3's (5 total)


Staying here as attendings - 2
Peds fellowship @ Cinci - 1
Pain fellowship in Utah - 1
PP - 1

 

[coprolalia]

Our CA-3's are doing the following...

Pedi fellowship - 2
CCM fellowship - 1
CT anesthesia fellowship -1
Chronic Pain - 1
Academia - 1 (elsewhere)
PP - Rest of 'em... couple staying in-state and others going far, far away

None used gaswork (or any other recruiters) to get their job, all used connections. And, PP dudes are going to MD-only practices (as far as I know). All have had their appointments for months, with the last one finalizing probably back in November.

-copro

 

[pwrpuffgirl]

Here's the breakdown in my class

1- pain fellowship
3- staying on as academic docs
4- private practice

I actually did land my job off of gasworks.com I think I got lucky because it actually seems like a pretty good gig- all MD in Denver, employee model, not a partnership track, benefits not great, but location and hours compensate for it. Stable group with many people there for 10- 14 years, haven't had a doc leave in many years.

 

[nociceptor]

Here's the breakdown in my class

1- pain fellowship
3- staying on as academic docs
4- private practice

I actually did land my job off of gasworks.com I think I got lucky because it actually seems like a pretty good gig- all MD in Denver, employee model, not a partnership track, benefits not great, but location and hours compensate for it. Stable group with many people there for 10- 14 years, haven't had a doc leave in many years.

What is your take on Gas jobs in Denver? I keep hearing that there are too many docs and the pay is lousy but the location is most desirable. Will this trend continue?

obligatory picture of the mile high city

 

[powermd]

just curious--where are the other pain guys/gals going?

Columbia, UC Davis (me), Penn, Buffalo, Hopkins.

We do have a pretty strong CT anesthesia department, but I would attribute the level of interest to the quality of our residents and how serious they are about anesthesia. And the tough NY area job market!

 

[Noyac]

What is your take on Gas jobs in Denver? I keep hearing that there are too many docs and the pay is lousy but the location is most desirable. Will this trend continue?

obligatory picture of the mile high city

We use some locums from Denver. They are good guys with skills. I was talking today with one of them and he described what I had heard many times before. He was an associate (nonpartner on partnership track) with one of the big groups in Denver and just b/4 making partner he was released. He was the 2nd highest grossing associate of the 13 associates. The group released the top 3 associates and the others were given some sort of deal or not. His friend who was released like himself stayed in Denver and became independent. He made a ton of money but is in legal proceedings for a non-compete clause. It is costing him $150,000 to fight but he doesn't have many options. The group is large and the cost to them is larger but it is divided by many so they don't miss the money and can afford to sue him. The groups in Denver have a real bad reputation for this kind of ****. I interviewed 5 yrs ago with them and it was exactly the same back then. I wasn't positive of their actions but I got one of those feelings and avoided them. Now it appears to be true. Tell your fellow residents to be wary.

 

[siednarb]

Henry Ford - Detroit

Cardiac - 2 (1 to Penn, 1 to Texas Heart)
Pain - 5 (3 staying at ford, one portland, OR, one Loyla)
Private Practice - 5 (4 staying in Michigan, 1 going to northern Illinois)

 

[cubs3canes]

Not too many fellowships this year
1 pain (new Mexico)
5 private practice. 3 with contracts in NOLA, 1 just waiting to sign contract in state, other looking far away...

Last year 5/6 did fellowships.

Cubs

 

[thegasman]

My class 6 CA3

1 pain fellowship (UAB)
5 private practice

My pp job is act 4 rms with crnas at 350 bed hospital. Partners who trained at my program contacted pd that they were looking for a new grad ( they ended up taking me and one of my classmates as well) Cases are mostly b and b with some cranis/thoracic/vascular. Hospital has OB with low cs rate and minimal peds. No NICU. Very good payor mix at hospital.
3 yr partnership tract with reduced salary but no additional buy-in. Equal vacation/call/hours with partners.

 

[veetz]

8 graduating...

2 CT (CCF, Penn)
3 Pain (here, Pitt)
3 Private practice (PA, CT, TX)

...can't wait to be in their place🙂

 

[TheSandMan]

When is a good time to start the job hunt?

 

[bubalus]

It varies depending on the group. Some know they will need someone early on and May isn't too early. Others still don't know if they will be needing someone in July. Nice to have something finalized by Dec to work on credentialing and priviledges for the next 6 mos. Maybe some of the PP guys here will discuss when their groups review CVs and do interviews.

 

[deleted126335]

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[Jeff05]

i think the frequency of fellowship training has more to do with the fact that my generation of anesthesiologists is a very highly motivated, academically successful group, who tend to overachieve. since fellowships in anes are only one year, it's hard to pass up extra training that will make one a better clinician. also, the prospect of a possibly tightening market, especially around metro areas, makes us feel better that we have something extra to bring to the table.

i disagree with the doom and gloom post below. where are all those jobs going to go? will NO ONE retire? perhaps, the compensation will drop, i'll give you that...

Based on the responses, it seems that a rather large percentage of graduates are choosing to enter a fellowship as opposed to private practice. This data point plus others leads me to call a top in the anesthesia job market. I predict that next years crop of graduates will be posting on these boards regarding their dissatisfaction with the positions offered. I also predict "Help Me" posts from docs whose hospitals are cutting subsidies or forcing employment on their docs within the year.🙁

 

[nociceptor]

We use some locums from Denver. They are good guys with skills. I was talking today with one of them and he described what I had heard many times before. He was an associate (nonpartner on partnership track) with one of the big groups in Denver and just b/4 making partner he was released. He was the 2nd highest grossing associate of the 13 associates. The group released the top 3 associates and the others were given some sort of deal or not. His friend who was released like himself stayed in Denver and became independent. He made a ton of money but is in legal proceedings for a non-compete clause. It is costing him $150,000 to fight but he doesn't have many options. The group is large and the cost to them is larger but it is divided by many so they don't miss the money and can afford to sue him. The groups in Denver have a real bad reputation for this kind of ****. I interviewed 5 yrs ago with them and it was exactly the same back then. I wasn't positive of their actions but I got one of those feelings and avoided them. Now it appears to be true. Tell your fellow residents to be wary.

Noyac,

thanks for the post. Since I have a few years before I am going to be in this position I am hoping to come into it fully aware.

Is word of mouth the only way to weed out groups that fire others before they make partners? Is there questions you can ask, papers you can see?

The other thing I don't understand is the noncompete clause? who signs that and when? did the associate sign that or how can they sue? Could you elaborate?

 

[militarymd]

i think the frequency of fellowship training has more to do with the fact that my generation of anesthesiologists is a very highly motivated, academically successful group, who tend to overachieve. since fellowships in anes are only one year, it's hard to pass up extra training that will make one a better clinician. also, the prospect of a possibly tightening market, especially around metro areas, makes us feel better that we have something extra to bring to the table.

i disagree with the doom and gloom post below. where are all those jobs going to go? will NO ONE retire? perhaps, the compensation will drop, i'll give you that...

Many plans for retirement have been pushed back indefinitely because of the recent economic instability.

Many portfolios have lost VERY significant amounts of $$$$$.

 

[numbmd]

Many plans for retirement have been pushed back indefinitely because of the recent economic instability.

Many portfolios have lost VERY significant amounts of $$$$$.

That's funny, my retirement plans were pushed back indefinitely with the birth of my third child.

 

[deleted126335]

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[militarymd]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just chose to post mine as you did yours. I became a student of the anesthesia job market and economic trends because I was horribly underemployed in the 90s by the glut of anesthesiologists in the market. I wish you luck and personally hope that you are right and that I am wrong.

I concur with dr. doze....it's going to be UGLY.

 

[Jeff05]

dr. dose/mil,

what do you feel is going to happen in the next 5-10 years with the anesthesia employment opps, salaries, desirability, etc and WHY? Which factors do you believe will be responsible for the decline?

 

[militarymd]

dr. dose/mil,

what do you feel is going to happen in the next 5-10 years with the anesthesia employment opps, salaries, desirability, etc and WHY? Which factors do you believe will be responsible for the decline?

supply/demand.....supply will be high....demand will be low....

You can see where it's headed.

 

[Jeff05]

the number of graduating residents is not that high, below previous levels.
where will the demand go? will all those baby boomers NOT have surgery?

more details please.

 

[militarymd]

There are A LOT of CRNA's graduating also....almost a dime a dozen.

They can sit on a stool very well.

Yes, there are a lot of boomers getting ready to undergo surgery...but guess what...their insurance is Medicare.....

Current groups can do one of the following:

1) medcially direct CRNA's at 4 to 1....collect what they can.

2) hire new grads...and pay them more than CRNAs

3) hire new grads...pay them like CRNA's

 

[Coastie]

Mil,

How do fellowship trained guys turn out?

A) CCM

B) CT

C) Peds

D) Pain

E) The rest.

When the supply of CRNAs hits critical mass, and it's either hire a doc or CRNA for the same price (read: hire the docs), the CRNAs go down in size, and the MDs gain the superior hand? What about groups like yours that will get competition from hungry, smart doctors who will undercut you by 20, 30%?

Appreciate the thoughts,

Coastie

There are A LOT of CRNA's graduating also....almost a dime a dozen.

They can sit on a stool very well.

Yes, there are a lot of boomers getting ready to undergo surgery...but guess what...their insurance is Medicare.....

Current groups can do one of the following:

1) medcially direct CRNA's at 4 to 1....collect what they can.

2) hire new grads...and pay them more than CRNAs

3) hire new grads...pay them like CRNA's

 

[militarymd]

Mil,

How do fellowship trained guys turn out?

A) CCM

B) CT

C) Peds

D) Pain

E) The rest.

When the supply of CRNAs hits critical mass, and it's either hire a doc or CRNA for the same price (read: hire the docs), the CRNAs go down in size, and the MDs gain the superior hand? What about groups like yours that will get competition from hungry, smart doctors who will undercut you by 20, 30%?

Appreciate the thoughts,

Coastie

honest answer is....I don't know.

as for us.....I don't know.

 

[Coastie]

honest answer is....I don't know.

as for us.....I don't know.

The fact that you don't even have an opinion is scary for all of us. Thanks for being honest.

 

[Noyac]

Jeff05

I'm curious, what has changed in anesthesia to make you feel this way, "my generation of anesthesiologists is a very highly motivated, academically successful group, who tend to overachieve?"

I could give you a counter argument. The anesthesia residents these days are less motivated and tend to underachieve therefore they choose anesthesia because they feel it is a "lifestyle" specialty.

Personally, I believe that the folks that choose anesthesia are some of the brightest individuals in medicine. There was brief time when this was not the case, back when I entered residency, but for the most part this holds true, in my opinion. I rarely run into other physicians with such a well rounded grasp on medicine.

 

[deleted126335]

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[deleted126335]

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[Coastie]

Thanks for the responses so far.

A few months ago, when asked about job prospects, Jet said: (paraphrase): Close your eyes, spin around, and let your finger land on the map: You'll have a job.

Someone recently said: "there are 98 providers to every 100 jobs"

Mil is unsure of the future, and Doze speaks of the job market hitting it's high point, with people, just next year, posting in desperation regarding offers.

What's going on? Are you guys telling me that the job market can go from Hero to Zero in one year? Are you telling me that Anesthesiologists will be unemployed, with CRNA's raking it in? Are you telling me that, all things being equal, BC'd and possible fellowshipped Anesthesiologists will not be hired in favor of CRNA's? Did the job market in the 90's really crash that hard overnight, and if so, how does it jive with people like Jet, who said he was making tons of money in bum egypt for 8 years, even in that terrible job market?

I hear some incredible numbers coming out of graduating seniors with regards to starting offers and job availability. I also hear what is stated above. A little help, please?

 

[deleted126335]

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[coprolalia]

Current groups can do one of the following:

1) medcially direct CRNA's at 4 to 1....collect what they can.

2) hire new grads...and pay them more than CRNAs

3) hire new grads...pay them like CRNA's

Interesting perspective, 'cuz I don't think it's currently playing out like (at least) 1 & 3.

Most of the folks finishing my program this year going into private practice are finding MD/DO-only practices that are paying substantially more than CRNAs. In fact, most are getting the $250K+ package... to start.

It may change in the ensuing years, but right now the demand is still way high. I even heard a rumor recently (maybe someone can confirm here) that WVU is hiring at $310K to start for academic clinical instructor/asst. professor.

-copro

 

[Noyac]

Interesting perspective, 'cuz I don't think it's currently playing out like (at least) 1 & 3.

Most of the folks finishing my program this year going into private practice are finding MD/DO-only practices that are paying substantially more than CRNAs. In fact, most are getting the $250K+ package... to start.

It may change in the ensuing years, but right now the demand is still way high. I even heard a rumor recently (maybe someone can confirm here) that WVU is hiring at $310K to start for academic clinical instructor/asst. professor.

-copro

My group for example. A new grad will do better than $250K plus bennies.

And as of now, if there is any change it will be for more $.

 

[nvshelat]

So in this informal tally so far I've got (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone)-

PP: 43
Peds: 9
CC: 4
CT: 10
CC/CT: 2
Pain: 24
Other (Academia, Regional(?), Neuro, OB): 11

PP and Pain seem like the popular choices... is this the normal trend? Anywhere we can get more formal #?

 

[coprolalia]

My group for example. A new grad will do better than $250K plus bennies.

And as of now, if there is any change it will be for more $.

Yeah, that's about what I thought. Around $250K seems to be average now, whereas a couple of years ago (when I started this game) it seemed like the graduating seniors were averaging $220K.

-copro

 

[amyl]

i don't think too many people are going into anesthesiology because it is a lifestyle specialty...some maybe but they are the minority. If i wanted a lifestyle specialty i would have chosen rads ( 👎 no patient interaction, don't like dark rooms) or derm (I would have had the spot at an osteopathic residency but had do to 3 years of family med first, but it bored me to the death) or family med. a friend of mine going into rads said the residents at his number one program work about 40h per week... most anesthesiology programs quote 50-70h/week. some of the osteopathic rads spots didn't even fill....
i went into anesthesiology because i liked it the best and i thought it would open the most doors for me as far as a pain fellowship. who knows maybe in four years i will just want to be done (if i get a spot on monday that is🙂) but right now i am headed for pain....i have a background in psych and business, i do a lot of these procedures on my horses already...i think pain is for me, but we will see. to be honest the market concerns are also pushing me towards pain, but that is just a fringe benefit...i would do it even if it didn't mean making more $.
we aren't all lazy med students looking for the easy way out....

 

[nociceptor]

Remember 2000 when you couldn't go wrong with stocks. Or 2005 when you couldn't go wrong with real estate- well it feels like that to me now with anesthesia.

the problem I have with this statement is that it is probably true. Can't you just tell me what I want to hear?

 

[Coastie]

Now you're just trying too hard with the pics.

the problem I have with this statement is that it is probably true. Can't you just tell me what I want to hear?

 

[Pilot Doc]

What's going on? Are you guys telling me that the job market can go from Hero to Zero in one year?

Yes.

In what is basically a nationwide commodity market with MD's the high cost provider, a shift from slight undersupply to slight oversupply could happen very quickly.

 

[m3unsure]

If people think that high pay is going to the be future of medicine, think again. Those days are over.

However, how bad are the demands for the salary being around 220K? How many hours per week?

 

[nociceptor]

Now you're just trying too hard with the pics.

I am working on my creativity. I thought I had posted worse though.😱😱

 

[bubalus]

I even heard a rumor recently (maybe someone can confirm here) that WVU is hiring at $310K to start for academic clinical instructor/asst. professor.

-copro

Trisomy? Any truth to this? How are things at WVU for attendings?

 

[deleted126335]

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[militarymd]

I remember 1997....it was a bad year .....and it happened literally almost overnight after the article in the wall street journal came out.

 

[coprolalia]

That is my opinion of the anesthesia pipeline. I may be off by a year or two on the timing, but I am confident that my analysis is correct.

Personally, I think you're off by about 10-15 years. The demand right now FAR outstrips the supply. It's more like 89 bottles of water for those 100 thirsty desert dwellers...

-copro